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BillC
on a new path
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Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2100
Loc: Washington, USA
Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up
      #387187 - 03/27/05 04:30 AM Attachment (738 downloads)

Not long ago, I offered a few reasons for my belief that binocular reviews were considerably less helpful than some might imagine. The primary reason rests with the fact that there are a number of variables to be considered, of which, most potential shoppers are unaware.

The attached photo goes a long way in illustrating my point in just one important arena.

On the left is the Swift 8.5x44 Audubon,
in the middle is the Swift 8.5x44 Audubon, and
on the right is the Swift 8.5x44 Audubon.

When Sky & Telescope asked me about my 8 “favorite” hand-held binoculars for astronomy in 1996, one of my favorites just happened to be—oddly enough—the Swift 8.5x44 Audubon.

However, while I stand by my comment, and still have my bino nearby, to WHICH of these Swift 8.5x44 Audubons was I referring? Or, are they all the same?

Considering that they are all 8.5x44 one might deduce that each is an improved version of the model that came before, and that if a person endorsed one, he would certainly endorse those that followed, right?

Currently my weapon of choice for astronomy and birding carries a name other than Swift. However, I have owned more Swift binoculars than any other brand, and those that remain in my possession are all still top performers in their class.

That does NOT mean, however, that when you have seen one Audubon you have seen them all.

The Audubon on the left is a fine example from the late 70’s, I believe. It has a wide, crisp field of view and a traditional focus mechanism that will still be working flawlessly—without any backlash—on into the possession the owner’s grandchildren. The bridges were quite thick, thus helping prevent the “see-saw” effect that is the bane of so many center focus binoculars. VERY important to me—but never noticed by novice binocular aficionados or consumers—is the fact that it is collimated with eccentric rings!

Yep, that’s old fashioned all right—not nearly as fast as today’s conventions. The method did have one slight redeeming grace: When the sucker got collimated . . . it stayed collimated!

Finally, it had a tripod screw socked built into the bottom of the right telescope.

The Audubon in the middle (sans the tripod screw socket) is the one I own. I love it. However, from my perspective it is not quite as good (mechanically) as its older brother. Oh, the image is fine, the field of view is wide and pleasant, and it has the strongest bridges I’ve ever seen. However, there are a couple of points in which, to my way of thinking, the instrument has been compromised. First, while the focus mechanism is easier for some folks to turn, because of its increased length, it has a touch of backlash when new and the problem grows worse with age. Most noticeable to me is the fact that this model has given up its eccentric ring collimation convention in favor of the through-the-body method.

This method allows the binocular to be collimated without the need to fiddle with eccentric rings (that drive novice repair tech nuts). Simply raise the two flaps on each telescope (see The Best of Amateur Telescope Making Journal, Vol. I, Willmann-Bell Publishing, page 238), insert the screwdriver, and go to work. What could be easier?

Well, life is what happens while we are making other plans. First, the little leatherette flaps break off about 50% of the time. Yes, they can be glued back on—seamlessly in most instances. However, with eccentric ring collimation, messing with flaps was never an issue. The biggest problem relates to the fact that the opposing springs rarely have sufficient force to allow the instrument to maintain collimation once attained.

It is totally fine in situations in which both screws on the side needing adjustment must be tightened a good bit. But what happens if the screw needs to be backed out? Well, when pressure has to be backed off, the prism loses its staying power. And what if you have to back the prism off a great deal? The prism rights itself on the prism shelf and the collimation screw backs off the prism with no additional motion the appropriate direction. Can this be repaired? Absolutely; besides, I could use the money. However, why should it NEED to be repaired?

My Audubons were purchased in 1988. Seventeen years later, they are still collimated to exceed manufacturer’s specs. But then, I take care of my gear. Many others have not been so lucky.

Finally, we come to Audubon #3. This model has been on the market for about 3 years, now. Like those that came before it, it is a killer instrument! Unlike those that came before, it is waterproof—well, at least as waterproof a center-focus binocular can be. It too, has a crisp, wide, well-baffled field of view. And, in it’s price range, is still a top performer.

However, in this iteration, gone are those beautiful, beefy bridges. They have been replaced by plastic parts of much thinner construction, while maintaining through the body collimation and a style of focus mechanism that is prone to some level of lost motion.

All three of these binoculars are very good buys, and knowing how the market and marketing is changing, I would endorse even the weakest contender of the three. Unfortunately, I must say that, even with several newer features, and barring any consideration for water-tight integrity, the newest model is the weakest contender of the three.

So, you should stay away from the Swift Audubon 8.5x44, right? Wrong! Swift, a company with a real concern for their customers, is one of a small group of consumer optics firms that actually have their own facilities in Japan and they tend to keep products in their lineup longer than most.

The point is two-fold. First, everything sponsored as new and improved, isn’t. Secondly, while we can put a bagillion “he said / she said” words on this list concerning binocular reviews, there is no substitute for having a modicum of common sense and going to the optics shops yourself.

I hope this will be of some help.

Kindest Regards,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


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edwincjones
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: BillC]
      #387202 - 03/27/05 05:43 AM

Timely article--the two on the left and center look like short Fujinons; the one on the right looks like the binoculars I got this week. They are a beautiful piece of workmanship, comfortable to hold, feels good, bright optics.

The clouds may clear tonight. Ed Jones

--------------------

n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy



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cota_scope
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: edwincjones]
      #387247 - 03/27/05 09:07 AM

thanks bill, i just bought a pair off astro just like the ones in the middle of your picture,thinking of getting a pair of swift kestrel 10x50s,what do you think of the audubon 10x50s? thanks john

Edited by cota_scope (03/27/05 09:08 AM)


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brocknroller
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: cota_scope]
      #387344 - 03/27/05 11:25 AM


I bought the 804 (middle model) and 820 (new model), and agree that the 804 is better, but perhaps for different reasons, though I also noticed the filmsy bridge. The reason I like the 804 model (and there are at least two variations of this model), is the ergonomics, image quality, and the narrower rubber eyecups. The eyecups on the 820 model are hard, sharp-edged and OVERSIZED. If you have a relatively flat face, like the Asians who designed the bin, they will probably fell okay to you, though even Barry Simon complained about the eyecup comfort (pop-ups rather than twist-ups, so you can't adjust them to your most comfortable ER level), and at least from his photo, he doesn't seem to have deep-set eyes and a high-bridged nose like myself. Since I could not get the eyecups into my eye sockets, I could see only about 6* FOV even with the eyecups pushed half-way down (since they are pop-ups not twist-ups and have no click stops, you can't apply a lot of pressure to them or they will move). Plus, there's very little "nose room" between the oversized eyecups, so if you have a high-bridged nose, you better have a wide IPD. I cheated by pushing the eyecups all the way down and opening the IPD wider than normal, though that didn't give me the sharpest views since I was "off center", and perhaps this is why the 804 seems sharper.

The body style on the 820 is supposed be more ergononmic than the previous models, and they shaved the weight a few ounces, but I found the huge round prism housing a bit hard to grip even with my XL large hands, so I imagine those with smaller hands would find them uncomfortable. The prism housings on the 804 are also large, but flatter, and if you can position your hand such that your ring and pinky fingers rest on the sharp back slant, you can get a good grip, though the pebbly covering is not as easy to hold as the 820 SE-like skin armoring.

The 804 is MC, the 820 FMC, yet to my eyes the optics look sharper on the 804, though perhaps a tad less bright. I'm doing this comparison "weatherman.com" style, that is, from memory, I sold the 820 two years ago, and bought the 820 two weeks ago, so keep that in mind!

Both models exhibit some prism cut-off at the 11 and 2 o'clock positions (right and left, respectively), seems less than the 7X35 Minolta, which Edz says is 7%. The Swift technician I talked to said that the cut-off is "normal", a trade-off for the oversized prisms.

IMO, the 804 is better built. The 820 construction seemed shoddy. Not only was the focuser flimsy, there was noticeable dust under the paint on the bridge. At first, I thought the dust was on top of the paint and flicked it with my finger, and the paint chipped away, and I could see how thin the paint was! Swift also used two different color black paints, a gloss black for the bridge and flat black for the focuser. This does't not effect the performance, but the paint job looked rather shoddy for their "flagship" model. I could also see the framework though the skin-like armoring, with bumps and lines showing through. The prism cut-off was also uneven.

My only gripe with the 804 I have is that it's not the last iteration they made, which Swift knocked the close focus down from 20 ft. to 13 ft, and made the EPs showerproof (the are listed as "waterproof" but they are not submersible). It's nice to have the extra protection, but that's no big deal, but the close focus of 20 ft. is a bit far for a 8X (8.5X) model, even the Kestrel focuses a bit closer. So I have to move back from the usual position where I observe birds at my feeder with my SE and Minolta (CF 10 ft. on both). My version is labeled HR 5, not sure if that's the same designation as the last 804 made. I know Swift made two 20X80 Satellite binoculars, one with BK-7 prisms, one with BaK-4 prisms, yet made no mention of this on the binocular. Perhaps the serial #s could distinguish the close focusing model from the longer focus one.

I have compared the 804 to my Nikon 8X32 SE, and the resolution is very close. The Nikons are a tad brighter, but due to my facial featuers and the oversized eyecups on the SE, I have to roll down the eyecups (which is not easy) to about 12mm ER to see the entire FOV. The narrower eyecups on the 804 fit INSIDE the SE eyecups with room to spare! I also find the heavier weight of the Audubon makes the image easier to steady. However, the ergonomics on the SE are without a doubt "superior", the front slanted champering allows an "elbows-in" stance, which is harder to achieve with the 804 Audubon (takes some tricky hand positioning).

All and all, the 804 Audubon represents one the best buys ever offered in birding binoculars, the resolution is exceptionally sharp, the views are bright and wide, the extra .5X gives you an extra edge, and the construction is robust, though not WP like the newer model. As the BVD review pointed out, the Audubon optics match the resolution of the much more expensive Swaro 8.5X EL. If you want to save yourself $800, buy an 804 Audubon and one of those hat umbrellas that fit on your head. :-)

Brock


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BillC
on a new path
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: cota_scope]
      #387444 - 03/27/05 02:21 PM

Quote:

thanks bill, i just bought a pair off astro just like the ones in the middle of your picture,thinking of getting a pair of swift kestrel 10x50s,what do you think of the audubon 10x50s? thanks john




The Audubon 10x50 is (at least the one I own) the exact concept as its 8.5x44 brother.

If someone took my Superior Es, I would drop back to my Audubons without a huge sense of remorse. I just want to illustrate that sometimes binocular reviews can feature instruments that have long been closed out of a given company or which has yet to find it way into their inventory.

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


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Tom L

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Posts: 29813
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: BillC]
      #387474 - 03/27/05 03:07 PM

Great post, Bill. Thank you. I've often wondered about the differences and don't know enough about binoculars in general to be able to ask the right questions and look for the right properties that define good, better, best in the binoc world. I have taken another step down the knowledge road.

--------------------
Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount


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BarrySimon615
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: brocknroller]
      #387475 - 03/27/05 03:13 PM

Quote:

. If you have a relatively flat face, like the Asians who designed the bin, they will probably fell okay to you, though even Barry Simon complained about the eyecup comfort, and at least from his photo, he doesn't seem to have deep-set eyes and a high-bridged nose like myself (not typical Jewish features).




Actually, I am ok with the eyecup comfort with the Swift Audubon Model 820's, I have the ED version. I tend to like the newer style of twist up or pop up eyecups with broad, flat surfaces on top. They press in well around the orbits of my eyes and rest comfortably on my cheek bones.

I did have a pair of the Swift Kestrel 10x50 and they are essentially the same binocular as the middle one pictured in Bill's photo. Both the middle 804 and the 820 pictured to the right have the spring loaded ball bearing which closes the tripod adapter hole from the inside. That is a nice feature too.

I did not like the eyecup comfort of the 10x50 Kestrel as the edge was too hard and sharp and as the eye relief was too short, much like the Bausch and Lomb Legacy, I tended to press it into my face, so it was not the best one for me. Optically it was nice, and probably my favorite binocular case so far.

Re facial features - yes, you are right - neither deep set nor bug eyed. I guess it is hybrid vigor - my dad was jewish and my mom catholic!

Barry Simon


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brocknroller
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: BarrySimon615]
      #387528 - 03/27/05 04:56 PM

Barry,

I'll have to go back to your "world-famous" comparative review of the EO Raptor and Audubon ED, which has to be one of the most widely distributed reviews I've ever read (though, ironically, I don't see it in the reviews section on CN, did I miss it?). You wrote that at a time when there was a great deal of interest in the new 820 (and similar 8X Vixen Forester in Europe). Many newsgroups around the world carried your review, which I think you originally posted to a Yahoo! binocular group forum. In any case, maybe my memory is going, but I thought you said something negative about the eyecups, could have been the EO Raptors not the Audubons. You mentioned how you preferred to use them with the eyecups all the way down to see the entire FOV, but you were concerened the lenses getting scratched or gooked up with your eyelashes...? something, I believe you also said you even thought of taking off the eyecups?! I'll have to look it up on the Web. You probably still have it or can post a link. I think you also mentioned that sharp edges on the cups were uncomfortable (not sure if that was the Raptors or Audubons, but the Audubons do have sharp edges, if you used a softer twist up cup like the Celestron Noble, you would appreciate the difference). Or perhaps I dreamed this all up! Got to find that review.

I'm a "hybrid" also (Russian/Italian), but inherited the high-bridged nose and deep-set eyes from my relatives in Bari, Italy, which, if you look at a map of Italy is in the Province of Puglia, the "boot", which also sticks out. :-)

When I was considering buying a pair of 820 Audubons, I asked Bill Cook about them, but he recommended the Nikon 8X32 SE, which I bought, and have no regrets about, although the oversized SE eyecups do present a challenge for me in seeing the entire FOV. However, since they have rubber fold down cups, instead of hard, pop-ups like the Audubon, I can manage to squeeze them into my eyesockets, or for even more FOV, fold them down, then push up the edges with my thumbs as far as they will go, which gives me about 12mm ER at the bottom, the same as on the Audubon. On the top of the eyecups, there's more room since my cheeks stick out on the bottom, so to prevent my eyelashes from touching the lenses accidentally if I should tilt the EPs backward while following a bird in flight, I wedge the oversized occulars into the sides of the bridge of my nose, where I would normally rest my eyeglasses, and I can see just about see the entire FOV. This position also makes for steadier views by creating a three-point "tripod" (nose and my two elbows against my ribs). The Audubon may be heavier overall, but 22 oz. on the nose ain't exactly light! I also get "black outs" at 12mm with the SE if I'm not careful.

If I use the SEs with the cups up, I lose at least a degree or more of FOV (the SEs have 16mm ER, despite being advertised as 17.4mm at many stores). With the cups down, and my glasses on, I get about 80%, but experience side scatter on the lenses on sunny days (the blue circles someone described on another thread). I may try the blackened safety glasses over my eyeglasses for the summer.

Yes, I wish the hybrid genes went the other way, my dad has a broad but low-bridged Russian nose!

Though I'm very grateful these two excellent birding bins exist (8X32 SE and 8.5X44 Audubon), and that I could afford to own them, I lament that there is not a variety of similar quality small aperture (50mm or less) porros on the market to choose from (the new Fujinon 10X50 is a welcome addition, though I suspect a "nose fit" may be problem for some people -- me!).

Roof buyers have a plethora to chose from at all prices ranges. But with porros, it's either a few high quality bins -- Nikon SEs or E2s or Swaros (which badly need a design update like the "E" got) or lower priced but good quality porros like the Minolta WP FP and Nikon AE, while bargains, are not top notch or even even middle notch (ala the Pentax SP line). And after that you have the cheap porrors, some of which are useable, while others are "toys".

With porros, you have a two-tier system, with most of the samples at the bottom (very steep pyramid). It would seem that binocular manfuctures have decided to concentrate their best efforts on roof designs. As a porro fan, I find that disappointing.

Brock


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Claudio
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: BillC]
      #387550 - 03/27/05 05:42 PM

Quote:

knowing how the market and marketing is changing,


Quote:

everything sponsored as new and improved, isn’t.




Bill, it is no accident that I too pointed at the Audubon 820 in order to show how bad is the present interaction between demand and supply. I am sorry for rapping on the knuckles of Swift when its trend is widespread in the today’s market. It happened because it is irritating that Swift itself missed the opportunity to market a quite good binocular in the medium-price range, assembling good optics in a body that is a little bit more than a toy. Indeed the technical decline of the 8.5x44 is a perfect example of how times are changing for binoculars lovers.
Do we want that our binocular is waterproof and light at the same time, and in addition not too expensive? Then let’s be content with those plastic bridges and the consequent see-saw effect.
No doubt that, by following the requirements of a less educated but much larger band of buyers, Swift will sell the new version much more than did with the previous ones.
I post again my contribution on this theme (it has been written for the Abrahams Forum and a part of it appeared in the CN thread “Swift binos with ED glass”), though I don’t expect to see new versions of the 8.5x with improved bridge. Most likely, what we will see next time will be a superlight waterproof Nikon EII with ...

Cheers
Claudio

<<< This is a contribution to the thoughts of Hans Seeger on the quality of
current cheap and medium-priced binoculars offer.

I agree with him that most of these binoculars seem to be made to turn away
neophytes from this fascinating instrument. It is not a matter of optical
performances, that in many of them could be considered acceptable and
sometimes good. The biggest problem in cheap to medium-priced binoculars is
the not quiet view, to use the words I think Hans Seeger would use.
A quiet view is the result of many factors, I would list them in the
following order of importance: perfect axes alignment, perfect focusing
system, well sized and well corrected exit pupil, sufficient and adjustable
eye relief (neither too long nor too short), no residual chromatic
aberration at least in the centre of the view, low astigmatism at the edge
of the field, balanced and ergonomic construction, stereoscopic and plastic
view, (etc.).

The first two factors, in my opinion the most important ones, don't depend
on the optical quality of the binocular, but on its mechanical features,
and on how much time the factory spends for assembling and adjusting each
sample. Perfect alignment between mechanical axis and optical axes requires
that the mechanical structure of the binocular allows precision adjustments
and keeps the axes aligned after collimating them. In low-priced production
the axes collimation is often something just roughly achieved, though I
would say that the so called conditional alignment is still a compromise
accepted only in the worst glasses.

However, even if well collimated, a binocular cannot give a good view if
the focusing system doesn't work properly. When focusing as well as when
changing the IPD, a floppy focusing system causes significant changes of
alignment of the eyepieces,. Moreover, when focusing the balance between
left and right eyepiece varies considerably, inducing to re-adjust the
right eyepiece correction very often and to re-focus frequently.

The eye strain induced by misalignment and/or floppy focusing mechanism is
what turns away potential new binocular lovers. In my opinion these
problems were less common before the seventies. In the last thirty years
the proliferation of binoculars with reduced weight and size, super wide
FOV and often with excessive or variable magnification, has accentuated the
problem. Now, from cheap glasses we cannot pretend too much, but when we
are spending $250 for a binocular, we certainly expect to get some degree
of quality.

I will give only one example, but there are many more. The new Swift
8,5x44 is thought to be a very recommendable binocular. In my opinion, it
is a wonderful example to understand the present bad interaction between
demand and offer. As the old Swift 8,5x44 was too heavy and bulky for the
current taste, besides being not waterproof, the manufacturer used in the
new version polycarbonate instead of alloy even for the ocular bridges,
whereas metal is necessary to get the required rigidity. In addition, in
order to get a waterproofing that I would name showerproofing, they put up
to three O rings around the ocular tube working with a damping grease
between ocular tube and ocular sleeve. As a result, the (thin!) plastic
bridges cannot support the work of moving both oculars in a perfect
simultaneous way. Moreover, the helicoidal thread of the right eyepiece
dioptre correction has too much side play and this, despite its damping
grease, adds further variation to the eyepieces focus balance. During this
dance the ocular tubes (or at least the right one with its side play) tilt
a bit so that also the axes alignment varies sensibly. To conclude (I will
omit other disconcerting details), what could have been a good binocular at
an affordable price (optics are quite good, at least in the centre of view)
has become a good example of how much the mechanical design affects the
final quality of the binocular. The Nikon 8x30 E2, similar price range,
shows a completely different philosophy that doesn't follow the fashion,
with a central focusing design thought to maintain perfect eyepieces
balance and correct alignment when focusing.

So, coming back to the other themes touched on by Hans Seeger, how could be
helpful an ideal "binocular advisor" at the shop? And, if misalignment is
so frequent in brand new binoculars, could he detect, judge and correct it?

Let's start with the latter question. As explained, misalignment in brand
new glasses, especially in the medium price range, is more often the
consequence of a bad focusing mechanism. This is a discontinuous
misalignment that cannot be corrected by working on the collimation points
(eccentrics, tilting screws etc), but improving the focusing group, which
sometimes requires the patience of Job, and sometimes is just impossible.

However, even if axes were actually misaligned, and even if the collimation
points were easy to reach and to adjust, how could the advisor collimate
them to the mechanical hinge? What he would succeed in getting is a
conditional collimation, i.e. a no collimation.

It would be enough if the "binocular advisor" were able to test with the
naked eye a binocular at different IPD's, detecting alignment problems. But
it would be really helpful if this ideal shop assistant were able to advise
the customer against bad choices: too much magnification, zoom binoculars,
ultra wide angle glasses with terrible aberrations, pocket binoculars with
microscopic exit pupil, low-priced roofs, super light glasses, ruby red
coatings and, let me insist, binoculars with bad focusing systems. Doing it
with in mind the first and most important quality of a binocular, the quiet
view. >>>


The “other disconcerting details” of the new Swift 8.5x44 I mention are:
1. in the sample I disassembled the recesses for the (up to) three O rings of each eyepiece were roughly milled (burrs).
2. each eyepiece has a small O ring just on the border of the eyepiece lens (that one closer to the eye), if you inspect the perimeter of the lens you should detect it. As this O ring doesn’t have a specific recess where to stay, it can happen that, when screwing (at the factory) the ring that works as field stop, in order to close the eyepiece lenses group inside the eyepiece tube, the O ring doesn’t remain precisely on the border of the lens and sometimes a part of the ring invades the lens surface. As a result, the eyepiece lens tilts slightly, and this could affect the optical quality and the alignment, though honestly I did not detect loss of quality due to this.


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BarrySimon615
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: Claudio]
      #387672 - 03/27/05 08:04 PM

Brock,

I am attaching my post that you are referring to. It was posted to BinocularAstronomy in 9/02 and that one was actually a repost from another group from about 5 or 6 months before that.

Since writing that review I find that I was a bit harsh on the Swift Audubon for astronomy. It's wide field compensates somewhat for the degradation of the field at the edge. Concentrating on the image at field center you can be more forgiving of the view at the edge..

I do like the eyecup comfort, however there is a shortcoming in that the eyecups are either all the way up or all the way down. Subsequent binoculars with twist up or screw up eyecups do have intermediate positions - the Nikon Action Extreme has 3. Anyway, here is that post from 2.5 years ago.
//////////////////

Ruud,

I am attaching a rather long post which I saved as a text file. It is
actually the body of the message that I wrote for one of the "other"
binocular groups last April. Hopefully it will give you more of a feel for
the Swift Audubon 8.5x44 in either ED or regular versions.

Please note that there is some confusion as to just which model is what. I
believe Eagle Optics lists these models correctly and has the correct "black"
body picture of the ED version. The 804 designation is the older body style
porro with the leatherette covering which has been superseded by the new
series, I believe 820, which are now waterproof, and have better eye relief.

While these binoculars are not great at the edge of the field (they do not
come close to the Canon Image Stabilized, Nikon Superior E, or even the
Fujinon FMT-SX in this regard), they are better than many, and certainly
have great center of field sharpness. Anyway, here is the complete article
from last April.


I have got to be nuts! Why do I need another pair of binoculars? I don't, I
guess it is just the collector in me and the continued search for perfection,
for I had not found that yet (and still have not).

In a nutshell- the Swift Audubon 8.5x44 ED is a very attractive, ruggedly
built, wide-field, waterproof porro prism binocular with center focus which
performs very well for most daytime uses and is ok but far from perfect on
the stars.

More info-about a year ago I was seriously interested in the new Swift
Audubon 8.5x44. During the summer of 2000 they were very hard to get and for
a while were unavailable as there was a problem with the eyepieces unscrewing
(messing up the waterproofing). They went thru a minor redesign/fix. By the
time they were available again I had already purchased an equivalent pair in
the Eagle Optics Raptor.

The Raptor is sold exclusively by Eagle Optics. It is available as an 8x42 or
a 10x42. It is actually a Vixen Foresta. Comparison with the new Swift
Audubon shows amazing similarities to the point where I will say they are
made by the same company in Japan with some minor external differences plus
the obvious small difference in objective size. The pictures that I have just
posted to the Files Section will bear this out.

When I got the Eagle Raptors in the summer of 2000 (which were not sold to me
as or recommended in any way for astronomy), I was disappointed that the
images did break down considerably near the field edge for astronomy. Even in
daytime use the edge of the field (outer 20%) was noticeably distorted on
objects such as distant
chimneys. Given that the field of these binoculars is 8.8 degrees true (70
degrees apparent), this really is a small price to pay for the wide view as
you essentially still get a 6.5 to 7 degree true field with good image
definition and an outer field that will help you capture rapidly moving birds
if they are your targets. I subsequently found that the sharpness/resolution
of these binoculars was really second to none in my collection.

Other nice features on the Eagle Raptors include the well placed central
focusing wheel (between the two hinges), the waterproofing, and the screw up
and down eyecups with a fairly broad upper rim which I find to be
comfortable. The eye relief is listed at 17 mm and I find the eye relief to
be adequate for me. The binoculars also focus down to 10 feet which is nice.
There is also a nice tripod socket (see the
pictures with the internal spring loaded ball bearing) which does not require
a screw in cap. These binoculars are rugged and do not have to be coddled as
some other pair need to be. I found that they were my go to binoculars for
daytime use and I believe most of you birders should be very happy with them
at their $258 price.

So why get a very similar pair in the Swift Audubon 8.5x44 ED? First of all I
recently looked thru the new fixed and revised Swift Audubon 8.5x44 binocular
and I have to admit that the edge of field image is noticeably better than
the Eagle Raptor. The field is a bit smaller at 8.2 degrees, but it is
better. As I had the Raptors I resisted the Audubons for the past year.
Additionally I did not like Swift's coordination of colors (function is
important to me, but so is form). I felt that the medium gray rubber body
covering with the black hinges and eyepieces was somewhat retro and
butt-ugly. Well, Swift has come up with an answer to that in the ED version
of this binocular with a solid black body. Much nicer looking plus the
trademark Swift logo on one barrel, yellow-gold in the regular non-ED
version, and I believe blue in the Ultra-Lite, is a very nice amber-orange in
the ED. Well, all of this information caught me in a weak moment, so they
were ordered (from Eagle Optics for $378, which is $110 more than the non-ED
version).

The salesman told me that you will notice the difference that the ED glass
gives you with better color definition and less false color along the edges
of bright objects. So in the spirit of giving all of you more information on
if this is really so, I further justified the order.

Well, they did arrive Thursday and they passed the first hurdle - they were
well packed and were not damaged in any way. Assessment of the binoculars
was done at my testing stand (my second floor bedroom window) with many
nice test objects to the south including chimneys, trees, flowers, birds
(includes Quaker parrots), letters and numerals of various sizes on my
neighbor's air conditioning condenser unit, houses and street lights. The
Eagle Raptors were used for comparison purposes.

I found that this pair was typical of what I expected. The field was ever so
slightly less than the Eagle Raptors, the resolution was equivalent, the
field edge was much nicer, at least on the brick work of a chimney about 300
to 350 ft. away. Looking at the edge of a bright, white gutter I could see
that the ED glass showed much less false violet and green when the gutter was
brought to the edge of the field. Not that the Eagle Raptor was bad, it
wasn't, it did have more false color though, but not objectionable.

Additionally I found that the Audubons do focus a bit closer, down to 9.5
feet! I also held both binoculars in such a way (belly to belly) where I
could look thru a barrel of each at the same time and line up various targets
to see if I could detect the difference between 8.5x and 8x. I could, but it
was very slight.

Looking at the binoculars side by side, they are amazingly alike. Look at
the photos I have posted. The hinge, focuser and tripod socket assembly are
identical. The eye cups on the Raptors screw up and down which is nice. This
also allows you to set them in a "middle position". On the Audubon ED the eye
cups lift and twist. There is no middle position available, either all the
way up or all the way down. The eye relief is listed at 17 mm and I find it
to be fine for me with the eye cups up. With the eye cups up however the edge
of the field is not sharp as I am not seeing quite all of it. I have to
retract the eye cups to do that and then you have to "float" your
eyes in the right position, they cannot be steadied against the cups as that
position would be too close and I know I would quickly get eyelash marks on
the eyepieces.

One other point about the eye cups on the Swift Audubons - they have to be
fully retracted to fit the binoculars in the case. The case itself is much
like the cases I am familiar with that come with the Celestron Ultima
binoculars - stiff but padded, with the latch offset on the front. I liked
the soft case that came with my older Swift Audubon Kestrel 10x50 (now sold)
better. The Audubons do come with a nice wide black and yellow strap.

The Eagle Raptor comes with a green nylon zippered hiking sack as pictured.
For day hikes I believe the Eagle Raptor case is a better one. Last night I
did have a chance to try both of these binoculars plus my Carton Adlerblick
8x42 binoculars on the night sky. The ED glass in the Audubons does make a
difference. I saw no false color on Sirius or Jupiter. I found however that
the large majority of stars are too faint for false color to be a real issue
at these low 8x and 8.5x powers. In respect to the edge of field definition,
I was surprised and disappointed to see that the good edge definition that I
saw with daytime use did not carryover to nighttime. My first target was the
constellation Orion and the 3 belt stars did distort a good bit near the
field edge. The Swift Audubon ED's were better than the Eagle Raptors but not
as good as the Carton Adlerblicks. While the Raptors have a listed 8.8
degree field, the Audubons an 8.2 and the Adlerblicks a 6.5, the practical
difference on the night sky was slight (using beta Aurigae and another bright
star approximately 7.8 degrees away according to the charts). The two target
stars could just be captured with the Audubons, you could see a bit more to
either side with the Raptors, and you could just not quite get both of them
with the Adlerblicks. The Adlerblicks overall gave a much nicer, comfortable
view of the night sky in this initial test under less than optimal
conditions. It remains my best 8x40/8x42/8.5x44 binocular for the night sky,
especially from home.

If one is looking for a fairly rugged, waterproof binocular ideal for daytime
use and fairly good for occasional astronomy, the Swift Audubon ED is a very
nice choice. In fact right now if I could only keep two pair of binoculars
for all my varied interests, primarily astronomy and general daytime use, my
choices would be the Fujinon FMT-SX 16x70 and these Swift Audubon 8.5x44
ED's. I would pick the Audubons primarily because of their positive
features, the fact that they are waterproof and their very nice optical
performance (especially in the central 80% of the field) in spite of the fact
that their edge definition for astronomy is not as good as a few other pair
that I own.

While the Swift Audubon ED's are ok for astronomy, they are not great and
certainly would not be recommended by me if someone was looking for one good
handheld use binocular for astronomy. With binoculars that I am familiar with
or trust highly the opinion of others greatly, astronomy recommendations
would include the 7x50 Fujinon FMT-SX, the Carton Adlerblick 7x50, the Carton
Adlerblick 8x42, and the Nikon Superior E 10x42.

A recommendation in a 10x50 binocular becomes more difficult, they either
have a small field that many will find unacceptable (Pentax PCF V 10x50 with
a 5 degree field, plus a number of 10x50's with 5.3 degree fields) or they
have too much edge distortion. The Minolta Activa gets a mild recommendation
as a good moderate priced 10x50 binocular with a very nice build quality,
nice features, a very nice case, very good eye cups for astronomy and at a
price under $200.00. I like the Pentax 10x50 too as well as the Carton
Adlerblick, but I believe there should be a 10x50 binocular with a 6.5
degree field and better edge definition than any of these can give you. I am
off the subject though, this posting is supposed to be about the Swift
Audubon 8.5x44 ED, so let me summarize:

The Swift Audubon 8.5x44 ED is a very attractive (all black body) ruggedly
built binocular (rubber over magnesium) BaK 4, fully multi-coated porro prism
binocular that has ED glass. It is moderately priced and performs very nicely
with good edge of field definition that birders and hikers will appreciate.
With a 5.1 mm exit pupil and moderate 17 mm eye relief it will appeal to most
binocular users. It falls a little short for astronomy, while it does have a
nice, wide field of view, the edge definition is not on par with the Fujinon
FMT-SX series, the Nikon Superior E, the Canon Image Stabilized, the Carton
Adlerblick or even the Pentax PCF series (20x60, 16x60, 12x50, 10x50 or
7x50). If you intend to use a binocular primarily for astronomy, this should
not be it. Note that you will not really notice too much of a difference
going to the ED glass. You will save over $100 with the regular Audubon and a
bit more with the Eagle Raptor. The Audubon does have a better field edge,
but the Raptor has a slightly wider field of view and a better case for field
use.

In addition the case on the Audubons does have a few shortcomings -
the fit of the binoculars and strap is tight. The covering of the case is not
sufficiently rugged to survive many trips into tight places, thru brush,
etc., without some damage. As the primary purpose of this binocular is
birding, the case should be redesigned with the birder in mind.

I invite any questions.

Barry Simon

Edited by BarrySimon615 (03/27/05 08:09 PM)


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edwincjones
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Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4359
Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: BarrySimon615]
      #387997 - 03/28/05 06:47 AM

I took my new Swift Audubon 8.5x44 ED out last night for first light. A front was comming through, the clouds were clearing but seeing was poor at Mag 4. In 90 minutes I found 13 Messiers (31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 78, 79, 44, 41, 46, 52, 45). Saturn was oblonged but no ring could be seperated from the planet, Jupiter had 3 moons and no color,
the Trapazium has two oblong stars. Comet Machholz was just barely identified as a comet.

I am planning to go to the Gulf coast next month for a week and feel this will be a great travel binocular for birds and sky, but not my first choice for a star party.

ed jones

--------------------

n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy



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craig_oz_land
sage


Reged: 01/21/04
Posts: 343
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: BillC]
      #388011 - 03/28/05 07:23 AM

Bill,

Interesting post.

The first time I noticed a swinging bridge was with my father's 7x35s when I was about 8 years of age. It was quite severe and affected focus noticeable. I didn't buy my first set of binoculars for another 34 years. That was the first item I looked at on a couple of models I was considering. I was suprised to see that even a famous German brand still had a bit of swing on the bridge. Although it probably wouldn't have affected the focus it just made me feel a little uneasy from an engineering point of view.

I was lucky I had that experience early.


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Fiske
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/14/04
Posts: 2057
Loc: Missouri / United States
Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: craig_oz_land]
      #388490 - 03/28/05 06:16 PM

Bill:

I agree with Craig -- good point on bridge flexibility. I discovered the issue myself after wondering (for a year or two!) why my Nikon Lookout IV focus was so flaky. The Superior Es are much better in this regard, as one would imagine.

This is one area where roof prism binoculars have an advantage -- the focus mechanism is inside the instrument which makes it more rugged, easier to waterproof, easier to adjust, and less subject to temperature extremes. Even in 10 degree weather, the focus on my LX binoculars does not stiffen.

--------------------

Fiske Miles
Nikon 8x42 LX / 12x50 SE Binos
Mini Borg 60ED, TV-101, AT80Ach, XT-8, C11/CI-700, 22-Inch Dob
Way too many Nagler eyepieces
http://www.fiskemiles.blogspot.com/
www.fiskemiles.com


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Claudio
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Reged: 07/26/04
Posts: 226
Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: Fiske]
      #389006 - 03/29/05 02:45 AM

Quote:

This is one area where roof prism binoculars have an advantage -- the focus mechanism is inside the instrument which makes it more rugged, easier to waterproof, easier to adjust, and less subject to temperature extremes.




Fiske, I agree it if referred to very high end roofs. In medium priced roofs the focusing system is often not all that good one could imagine. I have observed mechanical play in the internal bridges and the resultant focus imprecision also in roof prisms.
Moreover it is exact to say that most roofs have internal bridges, which is very important in order to get a more rugged binocular, but it is not true that the whole focusing mechanism is protected inside the body. Very often a substantial part of it is just hidden, but out of the body. The picture show the focusing mechanism of the Nikon LX (Venturer), it is just under the focus knob, not inside the body (the two focusing shafts under the two screws have obviously their O ring). It is very well made, as we have to expect from a high end Nikon instrument, but in my opinion this part of the focusing mechanism is vulnerable to salt water and thin sand. Anyway, a completely sealed focusing system would probably have had a less smooth focus knob, so I like the compromise chosen by Nikon.
Claudio

Edited by EdZ (03/29/05 12:43 PM)


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BillC
on a new path
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: Fiske]
      #389285 - 03/29/05 12:20 PM

Quote:

the focus mechanism is inside the instrument which makes it more rugged




Hi Fiske:

Out of sight, out of mind? This concept CAN be better by virtue of the fact that the bridges are shorter and easier to make sturdy. That does not, however, mean that the designers have taken advantage of that fact.

Just a thought,

Bill

Ch

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


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Claudio
sage
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Reged: 07/26/04
Posts: 226
Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: BillC]
      #389395 - 03/29/05 02:22 PM

It seems something didn’t work, so I post again the picture of the focusing system in the Nikon LX 8x42.
As one of the main themes of this thread was the trend of the binoculars market, let me ask mischievously: has the new, lighter, THUS improved version of the LX the same well machined parts made with the suitable metals, or did they improve the system with lighter plastic parts?
Just a malicious thought.
Claudio

edited by moderator
photo needs to be reduced in memory below 60,000 bytes. this photo is 250,000.

Edited by EdZ (03/29/05 02:33 PM)


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Claudio
sage
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Reged: 07/26/04
Posts: 226
Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: Claudio]
      #389417 - 03/29/05 02:38 PM Attachment (107 downloads)

You are right, Edz, I was posting the wrong file. Sorry.

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BillC
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: Claudio]
      #389504 - 03/29/05 04:31 PM

My photo is larger; please explain. The CN screen says we can post images to 300,000. Is that incorrect?

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


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EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: BillC]
      #389529 - 03/29/05 04:50 PM

Quote:

My photo is larger; please explain. The CN screen says we can post images to 300,000. Is that incorrect.

Bill




300,000 is incorrect.

Your photo was 250,000 bytes. I edited it to 29,000.

The only types of attachments over 60,000 which are allowed on CN are document files attached to posts. Document files DO NOT open when you open the post. You must choose to click on 'show attachment' to view the document. Even the astrophotography forums have an upper limit of 100,000 for photos. Everywhere else on CN the photo limit is 60,000 bytes. Most people have found that 25,000 bytes shows the same resolution.

You may open your own personal gallery and post all the photos you want to that gallery of any size.

All of this is spelled out in the "Photo Posting Guidelines" pinned at the top of the forum.

Thanks for asking. We visit this issue about once a month or so. One of my less pleasant job.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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KennyJ

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Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10082
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: EdZ]
      #389596 - 03/29/05 06:04 PM

If I can just squeeze in a few words in the shadows of the giant illustrations , may I just say a special thanks to W.J.Cook for the original , highly informative post.

Regards to all ,

Kenny

--------------------
Two eyes and a preference to use both



Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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cota_scope
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Re: Will The REAL Audubon Please Stand Up new [Re: KennyJ]
      #389628 - 03/29/05 06:55 PM