Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5303
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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From the experience of some of my friends and reading this forum it sounds as if most of the modeatly priced binoculars used for astronomy are out of collimation (not aligned) when they come new from the store. Is this correct?
Rich
Edited by Rich N (07/17/05 08:15 PM)
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werewolf6977
Lord High Smasher
Reged: 12/15/03
Posts: 7408
Loc: Hanover, Ohio
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Probly has to do with dearth of QC at that price level. I was lucky, my 15X70 Celestrons are spot on.
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Pete
6" Apogee/LXD55 - "The Beast"
Starhopper 6" Dob - "Shiva"
Spaceprobe 130 EQ - "Spacey"
Bushnell Fatboy
The Abomination
Sun Pak Pro 7500 Platinum Edition
10X25 Bushnell Camo Roofies
7X35 Tasco Classic Plastic (good views though)
7X42 Tasco Rare Bird
10X50 Nikon Actions (Type 7)
15X70 Skymasters - "DroolMeisters"
One ratty old IBM 600E LapTop
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12516
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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This exact same question was asked only several days ago here. So you're second in line.
Same answer though.
This is incorrect hearsay.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5303
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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Ok, I'm surprised. It sounds as if most 80mm and 100mm binoculars under $800 are almost always a bit out of alignment.
Rich
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2490
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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I don't have first hand experience with the sub $100 15X70s from Celectron or Barska but my Oberwerk 12X60( $109) and Burgess 20X80 LW($149) arrived in perferfect collimation. Paying for higher priced Japanese astro binos doesn't mean you'll receive perfect optics either. I recall one forumn member had to return 2 pairs of Fuji 16X70 before he was satisfied. Others reported problem with Miyauchiis selling for over $1k.
I'd feel comfortable ordering moderate priced Chinese binos from Oberwerk again because of their excellent customer service. Kevin B sends a replacement pair with UPS call tag if you have a problem.
Erik D
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5303
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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I should have said 80mm and larger, inexpensive astro binoculars.
Rich
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12516
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I think this is unsupported hearsay. I don't think that there is any set or subset to look at. It's a poor statement for someone to make. It can't be backed up at all.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5303
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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Quote:
I think this is unsupported hearsay. I don't think that there is any set or subset to look at. It's a poor statement for someone to make. It can't be backed up at all.
edz
Why not try and develope some data? Create a poll asking yes or no if your 80mm to 100mm binocular came correctly aligned new from the store?
Rich
edz
Edited by Rich N (07/17/05 09:54 PM)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12516
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Or,
you could collect a series of data from owner's reviews and give us the results to support the statement.
I don't want to put up a survey to answer question to unsupported hearsay.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5303
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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Quote:
Or,
you could collect a series of data from owner's reviews and give us the results to support the statement.
I don't want to put up a survey to answer question to unsupported hearsay.
edz
User reports are largely unsupported hearsay. Why do you think asking the question of readers of this forum is likely to give less accurate results than user reports? One benefit of the poll you would likely get more users responding.
It is also hard finding all the brief reports written on the forum. A poll would put the information is a nice compact format.
Rich
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12516
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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see my pm
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Alby
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 898
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Hello;
I'm all for the survey. However from what I've read here at CN, my sense of things are that most binocs are collimated!
My more than $800 BT 100 45s are AOK!
Wishing you all the best collimation:)
Alby
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Alby
Scoping Savant
10in LX200 Classic SCT
Oberwerk BT 100 45
7x50 USSR Binocs
Nikon Action Extreme 10x50 binocs
Edited by Alby (07/17/05 10:55 PM)
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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Rich,
Seems like the astro bin market falls sharply into two categories: "modestly priced" bins and expensive bins (e.g., Obies vs. Fujis, Burgess vs. Zeiss, Celestron vs. Miyauchi). If you buy inexpensive astro bins and want good optics, you have to expect some compromises, and from my personal experience and the experience of others I know or have read about, the compromise is with the binocular mechanics, including the prism holders. Also, large astro bins have longer barrels that are more likely to be "flexed" from handling than small aperture bins, which could affect the collimation, hence why astro bins over 70mm often come with barrel braces.
Given this, it shouldn't be surprising that Chinese astro bins arrive out of collimation more often than higher cost Japanese and German bins. It's not "hearsay", as I hope the posts to this thread will confirm. I had two Obies, one new, one used (bought from a reputable used bin dealer, who collimated them before he shipped them, packed them well, marked the package FRAGILE, and sent it Priority Mail, which is usually safer than the United Pulverizing Service). Both Obies arrived out of collimation.
I have a friend who bought FIVE new Oberwerks (one was a replacement), and he also bought one used -- five out of the six arrived miscollimated. I know another buyer who bought a new Obie 10X60 Mariner, which look like tanks, and yet arrived miscollimated.
Oberwerk binoculars are hand checked before shipping, I even saw Kevin's initials on the box of new Obies I ordered. So apparently the miscollimation issues are not due to lack of quality control but rather from Obies being suspectible to being bumped out of alignment from "shipping and [mis]handling." This also means that the user has to handle the binoculars more carefully than he would a more hardily-built astro bin such as a mil-spec Fuji.
Oberwerk stands behind their products, they have a Webpage devoted to collimating them (I don't think any other dealer has this, so that tells you something), and Kevin will walk you through the adjustments via phone if necessary. Consequently, the miscollimation issue is something that most buyers seem willing to accept as a trade-off for affordable prices and good optics. Without dealers like Oberwerk, Burgess, and Celestron, bioncular astronomers would be forced to buy high-priced Japanese and German bins (or buy smaller aperture bins they could afford like Nikon AEs, Minolta Activas, etc.).
While I greatly appreciate moderately-priced astro bins and those who design them, I would like to see new lines of moderately priced astro bins that have good optics AND good mechanics -- not only sturdier prism holders, but better eyecups, diopter adjustments, focusers, etc.
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Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3340
Loc: NJ USA
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Quote:
My less than $800 BT 100 45s are AOK!
$1,800 or $800 ? 
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Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11898
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Let's not forget the military design of the Oberwerk triplet 100mm series. Whether one is considering the original miltary version with the turret oculars or the newest 45° fork-mounted unit, or anything in between, these (very heavy) instruments house their optics in one solid block of aluminum and so do not have collimation problems while still being substantially less expensive than the high-priced competition. And they also have very good glass.
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11898
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Quote:
Quote:
My less than $800 BT 100 45s are AOK!
$1,800 or $800 ?
Hey, I noticed that too! If it's less than $800, I really don't want to know about it!
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BarrySimon615
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 902
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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My comments regarding polls - Very few participate in them so assuming that some do participate, the sample would be so small as to be somewhat meaningless. My comment on polls is as a direct reflection of polls that I have both created and participate in. I am the founder/owner/moderator or just moderator of 5 Yahoo Group forums related in some way to astronomy. Collectively these 5 groups total over 2000 members. Poll participation in the larger groups, BinocularAstronomy, with 1300+ members and UnitronTelescopes or AstrophotographyCameraLenses with over 300 members each is typically something between 10 and 20 members for each poll. Hence, poll results represent too small a subsection of the membership to tell you much more than which 10 to 20 members are willing to take the time to participate in a poll.
Having said that, let me comment on my own experience with binoculars having purchased better than 40 pair of binoculars new over the past 25 or so years. Most come into my possession collimated; of the ones that I purchased new, all Japanese made binoculars were collimated. Several pair of Chinese made binoculars purchased by me for me or by me as a prize for the star party that I direct were uncollimated. One other pair of binoculars (actually two pair), the Mark I version of the Chinese clone of the Miyauchi binoculars and the Mark II version of the same binoculars were not collimated. The owner/distributor of these told me on the phone that he purposely recollimated the Mark II version as the Chinese manufacturer put too much stress (overtightened the adjustments) so that they would hold collimation better. He felt too much tension was on the components so he readjusted everything himself releaving some of the tension. He felt they would still hold collimation. They did not, or he did not know what a good collimation was (is). I am really not sure, in any event, they were not collimated.
In general I would agree with the statement that lower end binoculars have a better chance of being received uncollimated because -
1) The component parts will more easily slip out of collimation.
2) They were not collimated properly to begin with.
Barry Simon
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5303
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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Thanks Barry. It is always surprising what a small percentage of people post to forums, newsgroups or email lists.
If reasonably good data can be gathered about alignment/collimation I think it is doing a service to binocular buyers. If there is a 30% chance you will need to collimate the binocular it is well worth knowing before you buy.
Rich
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Alby
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 898
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Joe/Joad;
I corrected my mistake......:)
More not less!
Alby
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Alby
Scoping Savant
10in LX200 Classic SCT
Oberwerk BT 100 45
7x50 USSR Binocs
Nikon Action Extreme 10x50 binocs
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12516
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I would say most of my 30 binoculars arrived well within the tolerances of alignment. So my experience does not agree with the post statement.
I would also say some of my premium binoculars arrived out of tollerance.
I would say the incidence of my Japanese binoculars out of tollerance was about equal to the incidence of Chinese binoculars that are out.
I would also say that almost every one of these binoculars was probably within the allowable tollerance limits when it arrived. I can think of one or two over the years that were really bad.
People have different levels of tollerance for the accepted allowable mechanical tollerances. About a third of all my binoculars have never been (alignment) touched since I've owned them. About a third have been adjusted to reach a higher level of precision. My personal level of tollerance is stricter than the standard allowable limits of accepted mechanical tollerances.
See the links on collimation standards to see the allowable tollerances.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Craig Simmons
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 1502
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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The seven binos I've purchased in the past 5-6 years have all had good collimation. Sizes ranging from 8x56 to 20x90
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Craig Simmons
Oberwerk 8x56, 20x90
Nikon Action IV 10x50
Barska 15x70
Galileo 20x60
Stellarvue 15x63, 20x85
Orion XT10 pre-Classic
Antares 10
Stellarvue AT1010
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
People have different levels of tollerance for the accepted allowable mechanical tollerances.
My Deluxe II's, when they arrived, were not within my tolerance level of alignment. They weren't grossly mis-aligned, but I could tell they needed some work. It was a relatively simple matter to correct them.
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grbrown
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/09/05
Posts: 643
Loc: Ampthill, UK, 52:02N 0:30W
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Well let us start that poll and knock some of the above speculation on the head, shall we? It is not hearsay that our brand new 100mm Chinese binoculars were delivered out of collimation! The poor things were miles out.
I am satisfied, however, that they were in collimation on despatch from our suppliers, but suffered in the clumsy and uncaring hands of the parcel service who delivered them. We await their return with fingers crossed! They are the same as the Oberwerk 45 degree model and cost well over $1,000.
Unfortunately a very large heavy box, weighing almost 40 pounds and marked 'Fragile' suffers from a credibility crisis!
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Graham
"one eye good, two eyes better...the more I look, the more I see"
BT100-45 degrees, plus 35,24,17,13,9mm Sieberts
15x80, 7x50 Steiners
12x50, 10x42, 8x20 Leica Trinovids
7x35 Minolta
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12516
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Comments directed at vendors have been removed from this thread. they are currently under review.
Other Off Topic comments have also been removed and are under review.
In my opinion, this thread started out on the wrong foot. However it has gathered a few resonable responses. It seems clear to me from the responses the original question can easily be refuted.
There are too many open ended criteria that cannot be answered in a simple poll. I have already stated above early on and in private pm there would be no poll created in response to this thread.
I would agree it might be helpful to know if your instrument will need adjustment upon arrival. However, the incidence and cause of such a condition is not regular, it cannot be predicted,and it is not dependant on the cost of the equipment as was inferred in the original post. Further, the criteria by which an end user might judge the need for adjustment cannot be controlled, does not have well known or adhered to guidelines, and in fact varies from one user to another.
I am not convinced any information regarding end user opinion of whether or not an instrument arrived in need of adjustment could be gathered without being skewed by the responses from tinkerers and nitpickers who could not leave an instrument be without taking a screw driver to it and adding their own personal touch to something that might well enough be left alone.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5303
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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My point starting the thread was to help the buyer. A friend enjoys seeing how well modestly priced binoculars perform. He wants them to perform well. He likes the idea of getting a big bang for the buck. I know several of his binoculars had problems with collimation.
If you, Ed, will let me post the numbers I'll ask him for a percentage of his modestly priced binoculars that had problems and the percentage of his highend binoculars that
were out of collimation. This post wouldn't show brand or where the binocular was purchased.
I have a few modestly priced binoculars but I bought them from a walk in store and picked ones that were collimated.
Some of my highend binoculars were purchased via mail order. None of them were out of collimation.
Rich
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5303
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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BTW, I tried several ways to state the subject line but it is hard to make it sound right when so few characters are allowed in the subject line.
Rich
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12516
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Hi Rich,
I think that type of information would be well suited for this thread.
I would find it interesting also to know how various of those people are actually measuring the out-of-collimation separation. And have they determined if it is outside the accepted limits or tollerances or just outside what they are willing to tollerate?
Based on my forum interactions/discussions with many types of users, including some very knowledgable users, I suspect very few people even know how to measure this separation. For instance, I know that my 16x70 Fujinons are out by 1 arcminute divergence R/L. I know that my 10x70 Fujinons are out by about 2 arcmin. Neither of these is outside accepted tolerances.
We do have a post linked thru the "Best Of" threads describing how you can measure miscollimation in the field.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2490
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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I responded to this thread two days ago relating my satisfaction with the inexpensive Oberwerk 12X60 and Burgess 20X80 LW. However, I forgot that I have additional data points from first hand experience:
1. I was on a business trip to China in March. On my way back I stopped by the SFO Bay area for spring break with my family. While waiting for their flight from NJ to San Jose I made my way to the Orion Cupertino retail store. I wanted to have a look thru the 7X32 Ultra Wide, the 8X32 Savana Roof Prism and the new Explore Line of Giant binos.
This Orion store had a pair of new 25X100 Explorer mounted on Paragon tripod. The Pagagon+ tripod seemed to be able to handle the 10 lb bino without problem. However, a very casual look thru the binos showed they were WAY out of collimation. Sometimes it's difficult to tell small collimation errors in the day time because our eyes tend to merge the two images. In this case the collimation error was glaring! The gutter on the bank building across the street looked like two separate pieces floating in space. I pointed out the collimation problem to the store manager. He said "That's embarassing!" He also said they did not have another pair in the store to replace the demo model...
Orion offered a Japanese SuperGiant 25X100 a few years ago. The old Orion catalog stated that every single pair of Japanese ultra Giants 25X100s were checked by Orion with a laser collimator. The price was US$ 1,145 each.
2. My friend at work purchased the Oberwerk 20X80 deluxe I and 22X100. I had the 22X100 on loan for about a week. I felt the 22X100s were about on par with my $900 Japanese 25X100. My friend told me he had to tweak the collimation slightly when he first recevied the pair. It was not a big deal( for him) because the collimation screws on this model are easily accessible.
Two additional data points, not a scientific sample. My own feeling is that any binocular worth buying should not require end user "tweak" right out the box... but I think it may be a while before the QC level of the Chinese giants reach that point.
Erik D
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lighttrap
Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
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Here's my take on all this. 1st, the term "modestly priced binoculars" means different things to different people. 2nd, in my experience with literally dozens of binoculars, most purchased sight unseen over the internet, both new and used, there is not as much real correlation to price and the liklihood of recieving a binocular in good collimation, as one might first assume. It would make life very simple if there was a one-to-one relationship between the amount spent, and the chances of getting a perfectly collimated porro prism binocular. Now, you'll note that I just added a word that's been conspicuously absent from much of this debate. Roof prism binos by their very nature hold collimation better than porros, and are usually more expensive.
In one well published incident here on CN, another CN member asked me to have a look at some brand new Miyauchi 71mm Saturn binoculars that he was having some trouble with. Sure enough, they were miscollimated. With the optional eyepieces, those binoculars were in the $1670 range. By most folks definition, they would not be considered modestly priced. They were returned and a 2nd set was sent. These we |
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