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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: JasonBurry]
#5260496 - 06/07/12 04:56 PM
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Jason Wrote:
"there is no light escaping them to cause this"
Maybe not ghost images. However, unless the prisms have a slotted base, the bino can suffer from a contrast loss.
BillC
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Phb
member
Reged: 09/25/10
Loc: Singapore
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: BillC]
#5268983 - 06/13/12 02:48 AM
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I think I should add my story to this thread. 
Strangely enough, when this thread was receiving attention, a 3rd hand pair came up for sale in my region. Price was pretty cheap considering. Seller was a telescope astronomy fella who was pretty sure they were colimated. For the price, I thought why not.
Popped over, checked it, seemed a little strange when hendheld, but generally useable.
Got home, next day checked it properly on a tripod, and walla, colimation is out. 
Cutting a long story short, with this pair of binos, it thought me many lessons,
a. find the screws
b. how to merge images
c. how different the views are at 10x, 12x and 15x
d. how bright or dull when comparing to my other bins of different quality
So all in all, and I mean no offence by this, I have learnt alot from my rather nice pair of Celestron 15x70s. It should definitely be something to purchase, for someone learning the ropes with optics. As they say, nothing beats personal experience. 
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JasonBurry
sage
Reged: 04/27/12
Loc: Cape Spencer, NB, Canada
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: Phb]
#5269223 - 06/13/12 09:24 AM
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Yup, monkeying with these Celestrons can really drive home some of the pitfalls and techniques of working with binos. They're inexpensive and fairly easy to work with.
BillC provided me with a document on binocular alignment (collumnation is, to me, a different issue) that really opened my eyes on this topic. It didn't provide me with a ready method for improving my alignment technique, but did give me something to ponder on, which has improved my alignment success.
We all struggle to align one barrel with the other, and that's relatively easy to accomplish with care and screw twiddling. What we should be aligning to, however, isn't one random barrel or the other, but the binos hinge axis. Otherwise, the best we can achieve is alignment for our own IPD, but perhaps no other. This isn't an issue if you're the only user of your instrument, but it can be if you'd like to share views.
I've been giving thought lately to making a jig that will allow me to mount a set of "iron sights" (like a rifle barrel) to the hinge axis of my binos. Then I can point that iron sight at my infinity target (probably Polaris, or distant power plant lights, something bright and more than a couple miles distant), and then align each barrel to the target as well. I'm working out the mechanics of this in my mind these days...
Thinking of a jig based on about 30" of straight maple stock, perhaps 3/4" square, with the iron sights mounted on top. On the rear would need to be a leg going down maybe 2", with a conical point to engage the screw hole at the back of the bino's hinge. A few inches forward of this would be a sliding, clamping leg of equal lenght with either a conical point again or a hole to receive the tripod adaptor, thus mounting the reference sight stick parallel to the hinge axis. Making the sliding leg repeatably accurate is the biggest challenge I see.
Anyway, it's been fun learning the dark arts of binocular alignment with the Skymasters and an old pair of Jap 7x50's.
Opens a whole new world of cheap-because-its-out-of-alignment bino's at this summer's flea markets, LOL. I may not be able to get them perfect yet, but I'm working on it!
Have fun!
J
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orlyandico
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/10/09
Loc: Singapore
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: JasonBurry]
#5269652 - 06/13/12 02:12 PM
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i bought one of these years ago and was in a similar boat - had it shipped at considerable expense to the Philippines - and it arrived out of collimation. and all my screw-ing efforts failed to fix it.
i ended up never using it. money (and time) down the drain. stopped using binos for years after that.
i just decided i want a bino. EdZ's reviews are quite useful. and although i can now afford to get something that's not bottom-of-the-barrel (e.g. i was drooling over the fujinon 16x70 when i got those celestrons) i still went with something inexpensive - but well-recommended, the nikon action extreme.
the only thing that %^%#$ celestron taught me is that 15x70 is too much for me (one reason I didn't get the Kunming BA8 this time around).
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Mike Cook
super member
Reged: 07/13/08
Loc: Moncton NB (Cloud Central)
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: orlyandico]
#5270083 - 06/13/12 07:05 PM
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I've had my pair of Celestron 15x70's for a few years now, bought them at a local Canadian Tire store, knowing if they were bad I could return them. They were collimated right out of the box.  I've enjoyed many an night under the stars with them. The only issue that bugged me early on with them was the sloppy focus mechanism. The eyepieces could move back and forth about 2-3mm, so when looking skyward to the zenith they would creep out of focus. I fixed that by inserting a homemade spring that sits around the center hinge and shaft that holds the eyepieces, giving a little 'push' forward, so now everything is tight and slop free, albeit with a slightly stiffer to turn focus wheel. Now they are even better and always stay in focus.
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JasonBurry
sage
Reged: 04/27/12
Loc: Cape Spencer, NB, Canada
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: Mike Cook]
#5270770 - 06/14/12 07:57 AM
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Yup, when they work, they work fairly well, perhaps even very well for the price (Mike, I'm about 200km from you, and also bought my pair at CT, for $50 over Christmas). For me, the lifetime over-the-counter warranty made them an easy gamble.
The problem with these binos is mechanical weakness and slightly "soft" optics. If you're lucky enough to get a well aligned pair, or can align yours reasonably well, they're a very good deal.
The trouble with recommending them is that unless you're lucky, you're depressingly likely to get a poorly aligned pair. Many folks on this forum are stuck with what they receive, being in places far removed from North America, making service and warranty impractical.
They are an enjoyable instrument when they work. The optics are worthy of better care from Celestron. There must be relatively minor changes they can make to fix this problem. It's disappointing that they don't. If they were reliably aligned from the box, and would remain so for a long time in normal use, it'd be easy to recommend them.
Mine were tolerably well aligned (slightly diverged) when new, but the divergence got worse over several months of genuinely careful use. They were never dropped or bumped more than would be normal for placing them on a shelf. That is unacceptable structural weakness.
J
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: JasonBurry]
#5271129 - 06/14/12 11:51 AM
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They were created for price point; as long as folks base their idea of a good binocular ON price, they will be selling plenty and have no reason to change marketing strategies.
Several years ago a couple of guys showed up on Cloudy Nights talking about the “GREAT” binocular they had just bought for (list several LOW prices). These men wanted to be helpful and seemed quite sincere.
I mentioned, as a VENDOR, I returned a whole shipment after checking all units for collimation errors—most retailers don’t care or have the equipment to check. At Captain’s, I had 3 collimators, and had lost money sending units from the previous shipment back. As always, I race to say I had NO SUCH TROUBLE with other Celestron models, or even the larger Skymaster.
The war was on!
Some people will back a poor buying decision to the death, no matter the evidence to the contrary. A few more folks chimed in. And, I was glad each was happy.
The sad fact is that with Cory Suddarth as my witness, I tested some binoculars the owners thought to be “spot on” or “perfectly collimated” that were out of collimation by many times the maximum allowable error of even the most forgiving standards.
By the time the dust settled, several users had spoken up to share their story of how they were taken by the cheap price, but had to return their unit several times in hopes of getting an ADEQUATELY collimated unit. Some never did get one!
Silly me; I think that if your time is worth minimum wage, it would be wise to listen to the warnings and buy better quality from the start. There are many fine binos that one can find used and others that may be out of collimation but which are worth having a QUALIFIED tech repair.
Cheers,
Bill
P.S. One of those men mentioned earlier, when he came to understand that my goal was to help him and others—and not be a snotball—apologized for his aggression and THANKED me for the concern.
“Do what is right; let the consequence follow.” The correct decision in any matter is not always popular.
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saemark30
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/21/12
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: BillC]
#5271213 - 06/14/12 12:52 PM
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I tried two of them and kept the one that didn't give me headaches.
Can they be reasonably collimated with just the 2 screws by the eyepieces?
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JasonBurry
sage
Reged: 04/27/12
Loc: Cape Spencer, NB, Canada
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: BillC]
#5271246 - 06/14/12 01:08 PM
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Bill, I know what you mean, and I understand that they're created for a price point. Clearly, judging by some of the low-end bins I've looked thru (most bins I've used are low end), the general public's criteria for acceptable is very low. When Halley's passed in '86 (iirc?), my parents bought a pair of Bushnell rocker focused 10x50's. They were very poorly aligned, but like so many, my parents kept them. THey were new, after all, they couldn't possibly be broken, right?
I know when I first encountered you on this forum (what, a month back, LOL), my first impression wasn't entirely positive. You have, however, offered me excellent advice and provided me with valuable technical insights I've not encountered anywhere else. You're certainly one of the most knowledgable individuals I've ever encountered WRT optics, and binoculars in particular.
Your writings have resulted in me greatly modifying my writing when people ask about this particular binocular. I do not recommend them to anyone who cannot test their particular unit in-store, and with the knowledge that future adjustment requirements are all but certain. They are, to me, a tinkerer's learning tool, more than a serious optical instrument, though they can be serviceable as such if they are aligned.
Ultimately, it's buyer beware.
And Bill! Thanks for your insights, both technical and economic. Stubborn though I may appear, I'm succeptible to reason.
J
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JasonBurry
sage
Reged: 04/27/12
Loc: Cape Spencer, NB, Canada
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: saemark30]
#5271253 - 06/14/12 01:12 PM
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saemark30,
There are 4 adjusting screws, one for each prism. Depending on just how the misalignment is being caused (ie which prism(s) is(are) misaligned, it could take 1 or all 4 screws to correct.
I've been able to achieve a reasonable conditional alignment with my own pair without overly excessive prism tilt (as seen either by "cats-eyed" exit pupils or obvious miscollumnation thru the objectives), but achieving the alignment has required some degree of de-columnation of both barrels. I've made an effort to collumnate both tubes to the hinge axis, but my current method for doing so is of limited accuracy.
J
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saemark30
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/21/12
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: JasonBurry]
#5271361 - 06/14/12 02:26 PM
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I have to give credit to the Japanese binocular makers for far superior QC.
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Mike Cook
super member
Reged: 07/13/08
Loc: Moncton NB (Cloud Central)
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: JasonBurry]
#5271463 - 06/14/12 03:32 PM
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The ones I have are pretty decent, but I know that dropping them may be the end of them, lol. If I didn't have an option of buying locally, I wouldn't have gotten them. There's a pair of Fujinon 16x70's in my future.
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: saemark30]
#5271596 - 06/14/12 04:49 PM
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Quote:
I tried two of them and kept the one that didn't give me headaches.
Can they be reasonably collimated with just the 2 screws by the eyepieces?
Two or 4 will do the trick. However, if you want more than “conditional alignment” you're going to have to learn the methodology. Is it HARD? No! But, the "You just turn these screws" gang can be harmful to TRUE collimation.
If you're going to be the only one using the binos, you're doing fine. BUT if others, with different IPDs, are going to use them, all bets are off.
I know I'm fighting an uphill battle trying to teach contrary to YEARS of “Just look at a rooftop or power pole.” But, I stand my ground for the 2% who will put their egos and friend’s opinions aside for an opportunity to learn something.
My position has never been POPULAR but it has always been clinically ACCURATE.
Many times I have turned a screw or two on one of my binos, and anyone else can do the same and by happy. All I have ever got my knickers in a twist about is seeing folks call something THAT IS NOT 3-AXES collimation . . . “collimation”! It misleads the newbie.
Cheers,
Bill
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saemark30
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/21/12
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: BillC]
#5271621 - 06/14/12 05:07 PM
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BillC if you have a way to teach us how to properly collimate I'm all ears.
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: BillC]
#5271648 - 06/14/12 05:25 PM
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Jason wrote: "I know when I first encountered you on this forum (what, a month back, LOL), my first impression wasn't entirely positive."
Well, aren't we special? Whadda ya want . . . a fish!? I'm a curmudgeon . . . Get over it! 
No, Jason my skin is thicker than that!
There is method in my madness, however. I go just beyond the threshold of “matter of fact” to cause people to think, to want to prove me wrong if they can. That’s a good thing; especially when I’m proven wrong about something. In that case I get to learn; I like it. This kind of forum is full of people who think every opinion is of equal value. And, while that is so socially, it is NOT so academically or technically. That’s why I can be so hardheaded.
“People who THINK they know everything are especially annoying to those of us . . . who DO!”
I KNOW I give people the wrong impression of me. But, my rambling is not about me; it’s about using my years in optics to be of benefit to my neighbor. You don’t see many of the optical “heavy hitters” on forums like this; they all have better sense! But, guys like EdZ, Glenn, Cory, Simon, and myself aren’t playing with a full deck and feel some sick noblesse oblige to help when we can.
And, by the way, thank you so much for the kind words and I’m glad you enjoyed my reading material. I will always help you anyway I can whenever I can. But with regard to your "You're certainly one of the most knowledgable individuals I've ever encountered WRT optics, and binoculars in particular." You should see me around the greats . . . with my ears open AND MY MOUTH SHUT. Yes, it can actually happen!
Spending so much time looking for work, I can’t be on here as much as I would like. But then . . . The people I once knew who would have given me a job in a heartbeat have mostly died off or gotten out of the business.
One good thing about Old Age . . . it doesn’t last that long!
Curmudgeon Out.
BillC
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: saemark30]
#5271654 - 06/14/12 05:31 PM
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Quote:
BillC if you have a way to teach us how to properly collimate I'm all ears.
You better be ALL EYES!
Send your email address to:
wjc 1 1 1 1 (at sign) hot mail dot com
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rdandrea
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/13/10
Loc: Colorado, USA DM59ra
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: JasonBurry]
#5271920 - 06/14/12 09:02 PM
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Quote:
when I first encountered you on this forum (what, a month back, LOL), my first impression wasn't entirely positive.
BillC is an asset to this forum.
He tells you what you want to know, not what you want to hear.
I have learned much from him
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rydberg
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/25/04
Loc: Richmond, KY, USA
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: rdandrea]
#5271981 - 06/14/12 09:48 PM
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Please, don't feed the curmudgeon 
But it is indeed true.
Very well put.
Marco
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: rydberg]
#5271984 - 06/14/12 09:53 PM
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Oh, cut the krap and just send the 5 bucks!
PS Marco and rdandrea: thanks! I hope someday to be worthy of such.
BillC
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Phb
member
Reged: 09/25/10
Loc: Singapore
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Re: Issues with Celestron skymaster 15x70 Binoculars
[Re: BillC]
#5272046 - 06/14/12 10:37 PM
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BillC - Dunno about sending you the 5 bucks. But because of knowledged shared here, the buying sequence for me went FROM
Celestron 15x70 --> "This is a silly hobby" 
TO INSTEAD
Monarchs --> SE --> Fujinon --> Celestron --> "Am I glad I took the advice from CN"
I think you should take heart that there are individuals who read and digest the info and advice given here. That I am sure. So take a bow. 
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