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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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Sean Puett
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 09/06/10

Loc: always cloudy, washington

handheld maximums what do YOU think?
#5371857 - 08/16/12 04:43 PM

I am interested in decent binos under $250. They need to be hand held and 50-60mm. What is the maximum mag you can hold and keep steady stars? I have a pair of 20x60 that were wrongly sent to me when i ordered 12x60. I didn't notice until it. was too late to return them. Anyway, i want steady views and as much aperture as possible.

Also how do older binos compare to newer binos? Are they like alot of things and far superior?

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edwincjones
Close Enough

Reged: 04/10/04

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Sean Puett]
#5371871 - 08/16/12 04:55 PM

it just depends on one's strength, age, coordination, bino balance
for most >10x is a problem
some can go much higher

try the 20x60s and see how you do
consider a tripod if necessary

edj

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Joe Ogiba
Postmaster

Reged: 02/14/02

Loc: NJ USA

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Sean Puett]
#5371892 - 08/16/12 05:09 PM

I like my 7x42 FL Zeiss but I could see more fine detail with my 8x25 IS Canon binoculars and my max non IS handheld is 7-8x and that is why I have four Canon IS binoculars (8x25 IS, 10x42L IS, 12x36 IS II,15x50 IS ).

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BillC
on a new path

Reged: 06/04/04

Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: edwincjones]
#5371899 - 08/16/12 05:13 PM

Sean:

I am sick of you telling CN members that you’re from “Always cloudy, Washington”!

There was that one day . . . three years ago, when it was fairly clear . . . at least in the morning!

Cheers,

BillC

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rydberg
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 02/25/04

Loc: Richmond, KY, USA

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: BillC]
#5371967 - 08/16/12 06:08 PM

Quote:

Sean:

I am sick of you telling CN members that you’re from “Always cloudy, Washington”!

There was that one day . . . three years ago, when it was fairly clear . . . at least in the morning!

Cheers,

BillC

Disregarding for a moment Mr. Sunshine up here

, the consensus is that 7-8X is the usual max for handheld magnification. If you can sit down comfortably, many can do 12x well enough. To go above, you probably need to be built like Scott Beith

(his occupation: he chases bad people). Size (50mm, 60mm etc) does make a difference (weight). the BA8 series of binoculars are excellent, and they have a 10.5x70 mm but they weigh a ton (well, about 5 lb). I'd limit myself to a 10x50 (or even 12x50) if you can find one light enough.
Marco

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hallelujah
Post Laureate

Reged: 07/14/06

Loc: Colorado Rocky Mountains

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Sean Puett]
#5372058 - 08/16/12 07:18 PM

Quote:

Anyway, i want steady views and as much aperture as possible.

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1410

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BillC
on a new path

Reged: 06/04/04

Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: hallelujah]
#5372068 - 08/16/12 07:23 PM

"Disregarding for a moment Mr. Sunshine up here"

That's right, Marco; have'em emulate my kids!

BillC

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DarkDisplay
super member

Reged: 12/21/10

Loc: Texas

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Sean Puett]
#5372234 - 08/16/12 10:04 PM

I've handheld my 25x100's for brief periods of time to scan the night sky when I didn't want to set up the tripod. No, I'm not great big. 5'6", 135 lbs. and closing in on 60. Secret: I've always enjoyed hard work and exercise.

In answer to your question, I'd rather have a bino that's a bit too heavy (15x70 perhaps) and allows me to see more instead of one that's lighter and shows less. I can always use a monopod for extended viewing. Of course, it's better to collect several of different sizes. One for every occasion.

Best wishes,
Frank

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Plan9
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/28/08

Loc: Northern VA

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Sean Puett]
#5372366 - 08/16/12 11:51 PM

Sean,

One thing I can offer - it's not such a linear phenomenon as it's made out to be. I can handhold my 15x70 pretty well (very steady, just tiring); my 8x42 not really as well. Sheer mass gives you some damping, and the shape/size of the bino may also affect how you hold them. The unfortunate part is that, in my (and probably most people's) location, light pollution is such that mag is far more important than aperture for anything I want to look at. You may want to consider a monopod as was suggested by others.

The other thing to watch - many 50-60mm binos have much less effective aperture than stated, so you may be down in the 40s-50s range in actuality.

If you're still thinking about the lower mag/large exit pupil range, the 9x63 Orion Mini Giant has gotten some favorable press. There are many 10x50/12x50 binos people here like (including Nikon AE and the Pentax line). Perhaps narrow down to a couple of choices and ask some opinions about those in particular for hand-holdability.

Cheers!

Bill

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Mark9473
Postmaster

Reged: 07/21/05

Loc: 51°N 4°E

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Plan9]
#5372536 - 08/17/12 03:11 AM

Steady stars in hand-held binoculars is not possible above about 7x magnification. That said, I do enjoy using my 15x60 hand-held. There are a number of ways to get sufficiently steady views; sitting down and supporting your elbows are two of the most important ones.

I find that two important factors are weight and balance. Balance is great in my 15x60 and 15x63, I find that 15x70 are a bit too front-heavy for my liking, and 20x80 are even worse. And the weight needs to be high enough to have some inertial dampening - my 15x60 are easier to hand-hold for me than a typical 12x50.

And after all that, it just takes practice. Years of it.

Quote:

Also how do older binos compare to newer binos? Are they like alot of things and far superior?

On the contrary, newer binoculars are better because of advances in coating technology.

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Tony Flanders
Postmaster

Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Sean Puett]
#5372679 - 08/17/12 07:36 AM

Quote:

What is the maximum mag you can hold and keep steady stars?

That is totally imponderable. No binoculars, even 6x, are as steady when hand-held as when mounted. How much tolerance do you have for shake? I can't answer that for you.

There's also a huge difference between holding binoculars in a standing position (very bad), using them in a regular chair (better), and using them in a reclining chair with your elbows firmly planted on armrests (best). But if you can lean against a wall, plant your elbows on a fence, or steady the binoculars against a tree, even standing can work pretty well.

For me, 10X works pretty well in all positions -- though having said that, the improvement when I push the IS button of my IS 10x30s is huge in all positions. I find 15X fine in a reclining chair with armrests, and I use 15x70s even from a standing position sometimes.

Quote:

Also how do older binos compare to newer binos? Are they like alot of things and far superior?

It depends what you mean be older and newer. In general, with things technological, newer things tend to be far superior to older ones. But this is typically true only in certain aspects; other aspects may have stayed the same or gotten worse.

Optical coatings have improved dramatically in the last 50 years, and this makes a huge difference for binoculars, which have many, many air-to-glass interfaces.

Phase-coated roof-prism binoculars are a relatively new invention; they have revolutionized the market for small, lightweight, high-quality binoculars.

On the other hand, the mechanical quality of many old binoculars is very high. (Mind you, there was plenty of trash 50 years ago, too.) And it hadn't occurred to manufacturers to "cheat" on their specifications. 50 years ago, almost all 50-mm binoculars had 50 mm of effective aperture. Today, probably 75% of 50-mm binoculars have effective apertures of 45 mm or less.

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planetmalc
sage

Reged: 10/21/09

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Tony Flanders]
#5372794 - 08/17/12 09:28 AM

See if you can borrow a pair of zoom binoculars from someone (for God's sake don't buy any!) and experiment.

Your final choice might also need to have your sky quality factored in. If your skies are great (dark & clear) then your final choice really will depend only on what you can hold steady, but, if you live under urban lightglow and murk, then the clear aperture that you'll need for your desired targets will pretty much dictate the magnification of the instrument. To quantify this: I live under iffy suburban skies that make anything less than 50mm aperture not worth bothering with. This limits my low end magnification to 7X (which is too low 'cos I'm a geriatric and my pupils won't open up wide enough to get all of the light in, as is the case with 8X also); 9 x 50's are probably non-existent, which forces me onto a 10 x 50 (and if turned out that I couldn't hold a 10X steady then that'd be just tough).

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Mark9473
Postmaster

Reged: 07/21/05

Loc: 51°N 4°E

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: planetmalc]
#5372986 - 08/17/12 11:18 AM

You could try a 9x63 if you wanted 9x. Sure you won't capture all the light but so what? You'd have the benefit of maximum illumination of that part of the exit pupil you can still see, and they'd be very forgiving on eye placement / IPD setting. All that in a package still not too heavy or cumbersome to hand-hold.

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JohnH
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/04/05

Loc: Squamish BC Moved!!!!!

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Mark9473]
#5373633 - 08/17/12 06:15 PM

I used to own a pair of "rebuilt" 10 x 40 Trinovid's that I bought second hand. They were great but one year I needed money to pursue some interest and they had to go.

Since then, I owned a pair of 15 x 70 Celestrons that were too heavy to be really useful without the tripod collar.

I had looked again at 10 x 40's again (Zeiss and Leicas) but I delayed making a decision and they got sold.

So I come across these http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5373632&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=all&fpart=&vc=#Post5373632 and I remember how nice they were in terms of magnification, aperture and portability.

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oldtimer
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 11/13/08

Loc: Lake County Illinois

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Sean Puett]
#5373962 - 08/17/12 10:34 PM

For me its my 6x30's. 7X50's are a waste of aperture. With that 7mm exit pupil you might as well save some bucks and weight and just use 7x35's. I actually do notice a increase in steadyness with my 6X30's over 7X35's.

Oh and by the way new 6X30's are hard to find.

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Tony Flanders
Postmaster

Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: oldtimer]
#5374259 - 08/18/12 07:25 AM

Quote:

I actually do notice a increase in steadyness with my 6X30's over 7X35's.

Of course. On the other hand, 7x35s show more.

Likewise, 15x70s shake all over the place, especially when I'm holding them in a standing position. But I still see much fainter objects through them, and much more detail on bright objects, than I do through 10x50s.

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F.Meiresonne
Post Laureate

Reged: 12/22/03

Loc: Eeklo,Belgium

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Tony Flanders]
#5374315 - 08/18/12 08:35 AM

10x is the max, that is actually allready a bit too much. 8x is still better. This said i use my 15x70 handholded from time to time. My 22x85 never...

But...for real observing, like looking for the faintest stars, nebualy or whatever every bino has to be mounted.
Mounted you see always alot more...

I guess it is just a matter of what you want.

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planetmalc
sage

Reged: 10/21/09

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Mark9473]
#5374634 - 08/18/12 12:40 PM

Quote:

You could try a 9x63 if you wanted 9x. Sure you won't capture all the light but so what? You'd have the benefit of maximum illumination of that part of the exit pupil you can still see, and they'd be very forgiving on eye placement / IPD setting. All that in a package still not too heavy or cumbersome to hand-hold.

Mark, there have been several glowing reports on here of the Mini-Giant 9 x 63's, by reliable posters, and I'm already thinking of going down that road. I've borrowed a friend's Bresser 9 - 30 x 63 zooms and have been trying them out at the low end. My summer skies are a bit too bright to get great results at 9X, but I'll be trying it out again in winter when the skies are darker.

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Sean Puett
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 09/06/10

Loc: always cloudy, washington

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: BillC]
#5374722 - 08/18/12 01:35 PM

Quote:

Sean:

I am sick of you telling CN members that you’re from “Always cloudy, Washington”!

There was that one day . . . three years ago, when it was fairly clear . . . at least in the morning!

Cheers,

BillC

I am about 5-10 miles from you. Lets be honest so nice more poor astronomers move to a perfect area to torture astronomers. During the winter long wonderful dark night but, cloudy. In the summer, clear but it doesn't get dark til after 11pm and the sun is coming up at 330am.

I am at one of the best dark sky sites in the state right now. Goldendale star party is great. Eastern Washington is an astronomy paradise. Far different place.

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Sean Puett
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 09/06/10

Loc: always cloudy, washington

Re: handheld maximums what do YOU think? new

new

[Re: Sean Puett]
#5374758 - 08/18/12 02:02 PM

You guys are awesome. I started this thread then left the land of 4g coverage so this is my first chance to check it. I was able to try some 8x binos and held them completely steady in a lounge chair recliner. I am thinking 10x50, 12x60, 9x60, the latter 2 being the lightweight ones by oberwerk or garret optical. The oberwerk are light enough for me to handhold for long periods but at 20x (the ones i currently own) it would make even Gandhi angry.
I think a 5mm exit pupil might be best since i am not getting any younger and there is much stray light at home so i am really leaning toward 10x50. Or even 9x50 if there is one.

Keep the recommendations coming and share your thoughts.

Canon IS binos are excellent and would be great but, they are a bit over the $250 limit. If you guys have actual brands and or models that you think would fit me, post them so i can check them out.

Thanks everyone.

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