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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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Binojunky
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/25/10

Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: Lane]
      #5644339 - 01/26/13 12:48 PM

Not really related but Nitrogen is used in the aircraft industry, when I was in the RAF we used it in the hydraulic accumulators as their was no chance of detonation, also used in aircraft tires,in this case it kept its pressure fairly stable even going from the extremes of a hot aircraft pan in the blazing sun to freezing altitudes of over 55,000 ft, in the event of a tire or brake fire the released gas would not support combustion.
If memory is correct the mainwheel tires on the English Electric Lightning were inflated to around 325-350 psi, sorry for going off topic,DA.


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Scott in NCAdministrator
80mm Refractor Fanatic
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Reged: 03/05/05

Loc: NC
Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: Binojunky]
      #5644448 - 01/26/13 01:55 PM

Very interesting info, Dave--thanks for sharing that (and no, it wasn't really too far OT)!

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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: Binojunky]
      #5644556 - 01/26/13 02:56 PM

Quote:

Not really related but Nitrogen is used in the aircraft industry, when I was in the RAF we used it in the hydraulic accumulators as their was no chance of detonation, also used in aircraft tires,in this case it kept its pressure fairly stable even going from the extremes of a hot aircraft pan in the blazing sun to freezing altitudes of over 55,000 ft, in the event of a tire or brake fire the released gas would not support combustion.
If memory is correct the mainwheel tires on the English Electric Lightning were inflated to around 325-350 psi, sorry for going off topic,DA.




I assume nitrogen filled auto tires are to reduce internal oxidation or dry rot inside the tires, and make them last longer and not crack inside.


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: rocket_pc]
      #5644578 - 01/26/13 03:09 PM

Quote:


Somebody said that these binos are rugged and another mentioned that military uses them, though he says he regurly disposes of them. If these binos can survive military use, they can withstand heavy use.
D.




Military definitely gets their stuff wet! Not just Navy Coastguard. Think Army soldiers outside in the rain, or crossing a swap, or creek.

I remember one general looking at a computer and asking the supplier will it work if dropped in the mud. Military computers hhave a rubber over on top of they keyboard w/o gaps for water to get in.

Getting back to amateur astronomy, we do observe with dew, and ice, sometimes we quit with fog but it does take a while to pack up. Sometimes we leave out equipment set up at star parties after we go to sleep. Sometimes the ice stays on our stuff in the car throught the night (at star parties when we camp). Yes, our stuff does get wet at times!


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faackanders2
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Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: BillC]
      #5644590 - 01/26/13 03:19 PM

When they say binos have twice the light grasp they mean each eye gets the full aperture of that one objective; whereas binoviewers split the objectives light in half for both eyes. You get more clarity with both eyes cancelling out noise and averaging, but the objects still have to be pulled out of the background (and does not sum up both eyes). If you can't see it in either eye, you won't see it combined w3ith both eyes (even if just barely below visibility).

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George9
sage


Reged: 12/11/04

Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5645077 - 01/26/13 08:26 PM

The Canon IS binoculars, which are listed as weather-proof (not sealed), can fog on the inside. Mine spend a month in 100% humidity every year, and with the evening drop in temperature, they fogged inside the objectives. The solution was simple: during that month, I keep them in a plastic bag with dessicant when they are stored. During any given observing session, not enough humidity gets in to cause a problem.

Of my several sealed binoculars, none have ever fogged under the same conditions, so I don't bother with the bag and dessicant.

Therefore, nitrogen filled or not, a well-sealed binocular is valuable.

George


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: George9]
      #5646333 - 01/27/13 04:12 PM

A openen jar of flower drying pellets works well also.

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Binojunky
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Reged: 12/25/10

Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5652085 - 01/30/13 11:24 AM

I believe car use is related to the low pressure sensors that a lot of manufactures are fitting, nitrogen will not expand and contract like normal compressed air in tempreture variations and it probably helps with condensation internaly,also its used in a lot of binos to prevent fogging as the O.P. mentioned,DA.

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bierbelly
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Reged: 01/23/04

Loc: Sterling, VA
Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: Binojunky]
      #5652104 - 01/30/13 11:30 AM

Quote:

I believe car use is related to the low pressure sensors that a lot of manufactures are fitting, nitrogen will not expand and contract like normal compressed air in tempreture variations and it probably helps with condensation internaly,also its used in a lot of binos to prevent fogging as the O.P. mentioned,DA.




BS, PV=nRT you can look it up.


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Mark9473
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Reged: 07/21/05

Loc: 51N 4E
Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: bierbelly]
      #5652388 - 01/30/13 01:54 PM

Well, what is true is that nitrogen will contract and expand much less than moist air where condensation of the moisture is something not taken into account in the Ideal Gas Law you quoted.

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Binojunky
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Reged: 12/25/10

Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: Mark9473]
      #5652527 - 01/30/13 03:15 PM

Excuse my uneducated question bierbelly but what exactly is the BS meaning in your reply?, if its Bull Manure then its not exactly a nice responce,however all gasses expand and contract to some degree, however nitrogen is a more stable medium,DA.

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BillC
on a new path
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Reged: 06/04/04

Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: Binojunky]
      #5652575 - 01/30/13 03:41 PM

Methane molecules are huge! Every time I fill a room with methene, it tends to linger.

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hallelujah
Post Laureate
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Reged: 07/14/06

Loc: North Star over Colorado
Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: Binojunky]
      #5652617 - 01/30/13 03:57 PM

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=52292

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bierbelly
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Reged: 01/23/04

Loc: Sterling, VA
Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: Binojunky]
      #5652636 - 01/30/13 04:05 PM

Quote:

Excuse my uneducated question bierbelly but what exactly is the BS meaning in your reply?, if its Bull Manure then its not exactly a nice responce,however all gasses expand and contract to some degree, however nitrogen is a more stable medium,DA.




Sorry, nothing personal intended. Just tired of hearing how special nitrogen is as compared to air. The Ideal Gas Law, which is applicable under all circumstances to all gases (with the exception to those under extreme pressures, like CO2, which liquifies) dictates that all gases expand the same amount under identical temperature and pressure conditions. N2, Ar, Air, Xe, Kr, He, even Cl2.

People are letting themselves be manipulated by marketing. Further, because of diffusion of gases through membranes, the nitrogen you put in your tires isn't going to be pure nitrogen for very long, especially if your tires get hot (which of course they do), since gases will diffuse even more quickly through a hot membrane (tire bead).


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bierbelly
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Reged: 01/23/04

Loc: Sterling, VA
Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: Mark9473]
      #5652649 - 01/30/13 04:10 PM

Quote:

Well, what is true is that nitrogen will contract and expand much less than moist air where condensation of the moisture is something not taken into account in the Ideal Gas Law you quoted.




No, think of the air and the moisture as being two different gases, which they are. The air and the nitrogen will expand/contract exactly the same. In fact, if the moisture is in gaseous form, it will too. The difference is if you have liquid water at one temperature and then gaseous water at a second temperature...ie different phases of the component.

Realistically, anyone who's using air to fill things like binocs ought to be using air from a system with a moisture knockout, at the very least.


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bierbelly
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Reged: 01/23/04

Loc: Sterling, VA
Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: BillC]
      #5652653 - 01/30/13 04:11 PM

Quote:

Methane molecules are huge! Every time I fill a room with methene, it tends to linger.




This is absolutely true and the one exception to the Ideal Gas Law...of course, methane is NOT ideal...


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BillC
on a new path
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Reged: 06/04/04

Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: bierbelly]
      #5652655 - 01/30/13 04:13 PM

"Sorry, nothing personal intended. Just tired of hearing how special nitrogen is as compared to air." "People are letting themselves be manipulated by marketing."

Boy, Bierbelly, keep it up and maybe you could pull some of the heat off me! Bat and Wyatt could ride, again.

BillC


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Mark9473
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Reged: 07/21/05

Loc: 51N 4E
Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: bierbelly]
      #5652659 - 01/30/13 04:14 PM

Quote:

The difference is if you have liquid water at one temperature and then gaseous water at a second temperature.



That was exactly my point.


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bierbelly
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Reged: 01/23/04

Loc: Sterling, VA
Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: Mark9473]
      #5652666 - 01/30/13 04:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The difference is if you have liquid water at one temperature and then gaseous water at a second temperature.



That was exactly my point.




Yes, if you have very moist air inside your binocs, and you take them out to a cold climate, once the glass gets down to ambient, they're gonna fog on the inside. The best solution would be to carry a large nitrogen tank with you, install inlet connections on each barrel and continuously purge the binocs with N2 during your observing session.


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FrankL
sage


Reged: 07/30/09

Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
Re: Nitrogen filled verses non-nitrogen binos new [Re: bierbelly]
      #5652799 - 01/30/13 05:12 PM

If I'm understanding correctly manufacturers purge binoculars with nitrogen to ensure that upon leaving the factory they are perfectly dry inside so that no fungus or condensation effects can occur. However, eventually no matter how well the binocular is sealed the nitrogen will permeate through the sealings and be lost. My question is about how long would this take in a well sealed binocular made by a top-end maker such as Leica, Zeiss, Swarovski, Nikon?

Edited by FrankL (01/30/13 05:14 PM)


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