Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
· Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User

Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (show all)
hallelujah
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/14/06

Loc: North Star over Colorado
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: StarStuff1]
      #5702743 - 02/26/13 11:56 PM

Quote:

"As old as those good designs are, you'd think the Chinese would be able to copy them better without fear of intellectual property violations (do they have such fears?) as certainly the patents have expired by now."




The Japanese had a custom of doing things based upon a 999 year contract.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
steve@37n83.9w
sage


Reged: 01/20/11

Loc: Kentucky
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: StarStuff1]
      #5703266 - 02/27/13 10:58 AM

Quote:

"
As old as those good designs are, you'd think the Chinese would be able to copy them better without fear of intellectual property violations (do they have such fears?) as certainly the patents have expired by now."

FWIW the Chinese don't always have to copy exising designs. They will build to the total quality the importer/original buyer is willing to spend on. I have a couple of high quality Chinese built binos, an 8x42 rooie that is excellent and a 7x50 porro built to military specs that is as rugged as almost any bino I have ever seen in this size.




From what I've seen the Chinese "quality control" is so bad that they have trouble manufacturing an existing proven design. I'm a framing/building contractor and as such deal with the inferior products coming out of China on a daily basis. Many of the tool manufacturers (makita, hitachi, etc.) have been outsourcing many of their tools to China and the results are pathetic. Granted we use our tools more in a week than a do it yourselfer would in a year but the good quality tools will hold up to daily use for years. When the Chinese can't even copy/manufacture a proven design with the help of the parent company it speaks to the non existent quality control so prevalent in Chinese goods. Contractors such as myself who can't find a quality tool at the box stores( Home Depot/Lowes) have to search out industrial suppliers who can still find the good stuff made in Japan, Germany, Sweden, etc.

I mention this example because it is analogous to how I feel about optics, i.e. I'd much rather buy a quality used tool or binocular from ebay, pawn shop, etc. than purchase the shiny new stuff coming out of China. I would mention that the goods manufactured in Taiwan seem to be of better quality than those manufactured on the mainland. Some of the Taiwanese made tools and binoculars (William Optics) I've had experience seemed to be of very high quality. I know the Chinese are occasionally capable of quality manufacturing and as you mentioned they do pretty well when having to meet higher standards specified by a particular buyer(my I Phone being a good example) but the majority of goods coming out of China (especially optics) just aren't made that well in my opinion.

I certainly hope the quality of goods coming from China improves because for certain items you have no choice but to buy Chinese....and of course they have/control 97% of the rare earth elements necessary for the production of smart phones and other high tech gadgets.

Steve

Steve


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mr. Bill
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/09/05

Loc: Northeastern Cal
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: StarStuff1]
      #5703286 - 02/27/13 11:08 AM

IMO, at this point in time, the Chinese are capable of producing the highest quality product. CNC equipment works the same everywhere.

It's a question of price point and marketing that determines what's being made.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Tony Flanders
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: steve@37n83.9w]
      #5703290 - 02/27/13 11:11 AM

Quote:

From what I've seen the Chinese "quality control" is so bad that they have trouble manufacturing an existing proven design.




It's rash to generalize. China obviously makes many low-quality products. However, some of the best telescopes manufactured today are coming out of China -- with consistently high optical quality. And you don't hear a lot of complaints about Kunming binoculars.

On a related note, I remember when "Made in Japan" was a standard catch phrase for anything cheap and shoddy.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hallelujah
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/14/06

Loc: North Star over Colorado
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #5703308 - 02/27/13 11:23 AM

Quote:

IMO, at this point in time, the Chinese are capable of producing the highest quality product.

It's a question of price point and marketing that determines what's being made.




Optics from China vary depending upon the parent company.

Here's the most recent example, reviewed on another Binoculars Forum.

http://www.opticstalk.com/leupold-bx4-mckinley-hd_topic35913.html

Stan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
steve@37n83.9w
sage


Reged: 01/20/11

Loc: Kentucky
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: hallelujah]
      #5703337 - 02/27/13 11:38 AM Attachment (17 downloads)

Quote:

Quote:

One of these binoculars (9x35 7.3* Nikon J Pat.) is one of the sharpest binoculars (on axis) that I have ever looked through.

Steve







Steve,

I recently purchased two Japanese Nikon Nippon Kogaku K.K. 7x35 Gold Sentinel 9.3* wide field binoculars, late 1980's vintage.
(1986 literature/instruction & specification sheets) One was new and the other one was used.

I spent a little time with both, in my backyard, looking at airplanes, birds, squirrels, trees.
Sharpness was very impressive considering the fact that I was viewing without my eyeglasses,
just to see how they performed.

I had the 'used' 7x35 outside, the other evening, and the moon was very sharp & stars were just a little off because of the astigmatism
in both eyes. (no eyeglasses)

I am very happy and more than satisfied with the performance & build quality of mine. Both were still collimated.

Stan




Stan

I have two of the Nikon 7x35 9.3 wide field binoculars and they are one of my favorites for cruising the Milky Way. I have several EWA binoculars with even larger fovs but the Nikons strike a good balance between a wide fov coupled with excellent edge performance.

One of my Nikon 7x35 wide fields is the regular version and one is the gold ring version such as yours. I stumbled upon the gold ring version brand new in the box in a camera store which was going out of business. The Nikon had been languishing on the shelves for 20+ years and the salesman didn't even how to price it so he suggested 100.00 and I jumped on it. I'm enclosing a pic of my two Nikon 7x35 wide fields and my 9x35 so you can get some idea of the size difference. The Nikon 9x35 J Pat. is a very small porro about the same size as the 8x30 Habicht, and out of my several binoculars it is these two diminutive porros that yield the sharpest on axis images.

Steve


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
RichD
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/08/07

Loc: Derbyshire, UK
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: steve@37n83.9w]
      #5703361 - 02/27/13 11:54 AM

I think with regard to quality control it's more to do with what the client specifies. The Kunming BA8 series have had very few problems with collimation, quality or durability as they are spec'ed to certain standards. So i'd say Mr Bill is right when he says CNC machining is the same the world over.

Chinese manuf's can produce quality like any other country, it's just that it seems the chinese don't mind pumping out the rubbish if they think there is a buyer (or if rubbish is what the client specifies). Other nations maybe have a longer heritage and a certain amount of pride.

Anyone who has looked through a BA8 15x70 or 10.5x70 knows the chinese can do it when they want to.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hallelujah
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/14/06

Loc: North Star over Colorado
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: steve@37n83.9w]
      #5703379 - 02/27/13 12:02 PM

Steve,

Thanks for the photo. Your brand new Nikon 7x35 find, for $100, is a bargain.

I have been keeping my eyes open for a Nikon 9x35 as well.
I'm always looking for the lowest price.

Please send me a close-up photo of your 9x35 prism covers, via PM, so I can read the information better.

Thanks,

Stan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rich V.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/02/05

Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada, USA
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: RichD]
      #5703397 - 02/27/13 12:14 PM

Though the BA8s are probably the best Chinese Porro offerings so far, I still feel they are lacking when compared to the Fuji FMTs, for instance. Considering their price, though, the BA8s are a great value. They are still built to a lower price point, however.

In a direct comparison between my BA8 and FMT binos there are small mechanical niggles afflicting the Chinese binos like tight/rough focusers, overly stiff hinges, mounting bar/hinge design issues and loose coverings. The FMTs exude a sense of quality construction that I think the BA8 competition is still reaching for.

There is a higher level of optical performance as well but that's more subjective, I suppose. I can't make that comparison because my BA8 and FMT binos are too dissimilar to compare.

The FMTs as a range of binoculars still have more "bang for the buck" than other premium binoculars on the market, even though they're more expensive than the Chinese competition, IMO.

Rich


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
moynihan
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 07/22/03

Loc: Lake Michigan Watershed
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: ngc 9999]
      #5703443 - 02/27/13 12:38 PM

Quote:

When you buy a binocular what of the two of the above conditions do you think about, spending not much money knowing that if you lost what you bought, you should not care, or being picky about optics and spending thousands of dollars to have the best optics that your money can buy and keep it?

In other words are you a serious observer that buys the best pinpoint stars, the best transmission in order to absorb the last photon of light of that faint nebula or galaxy or are you the one who gets aperture fever to see how that eyecandy object looks like with the bigger aperture and magnification?




I do not think i am a serious observer, in that i do not contribute any information or data to the scientific community. I think of my astronomy as recreational.

That said, binoculars for night use are important to me. My primary use of binoculars though is for day time nature study.
Here is what i did.
I have more binos than i need for daytime use, but we won't go there.
For night time, i want flat field high resolution and contrast, usually handheld with a tripod an option, and central focus.
So my primary reliance is a Nikon 12x50 SE. My cross-over-always-hand-held is the Nikon 10x42 SE.

I would love to find a non-alpha price bino that met the above criteria (except the hand held part) of the 80mm class, that matched the quality of the 11x and 20x Celestron models from the 1980's (yes i regret the sale of old 11x80 ), that are nowhere to find (i have looked alot).


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Tony Flanders
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: Rich V.]
      #5703484 - 02/27/13 01:04 PM

[quoteConsidering their price, though, the BA8s are a great value. They are still built to a price point, however.




All mass-produced commodities are built to a price point.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rich V.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/02/05

Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada, USA
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5703491 - 02/27/13 01:09 PM

OK, Tony, they are still built to a lower price point...

Better now?

Rich


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Binojunky
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 12/25/10

Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: StarStuff1]
      #5703521 - 02/27/13 01:31 PM

Well I guess I,ve been lucky?, in the last year or so I picked up the Fuji 12x60HB for $300,the Oberwerk Mariner 7x50 for $120, Bushnell Elite 8x42 for $350 but the best buy has to be the Meade Montana 7x42 for $79,an oustanding performer, if you are preperred to hunt around and keep your eyes open its possible to buy very good intruments for bargain prices, all the above are Made in Japan other than the Oberwerk.DA.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jarrod
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 01/20/13

Loc: SE USA
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: hallelujah]
      #5703661 - 02/27/13 02:51 PM

Quote:


Here's the most recent example, reviewed on another Binoculars Forum.

http://www.opticstalk.com/leupold-bx4-mckinley-hd_topic35913.html





That is very interesting. The Redfield 10x42 and 8x42 that just arrived appear to be constructed from the same mechanicals as this Leupold (parent company) BX4. I'll write something up later.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mapleton
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/06/09

Loc: United States
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: RichD]
      #5703686 - 02/27/13 03:11 PM

I would prefer to get a premium binocular. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to spend $2000+ but I don't see the point in buying junk.

This forum does seem to have an affection for buying cheap binos, I don't understand it. But I'd rather have one quality bino than 10 *BLEEP* ones.

It's like, what would you rather have, 10 used Ford Pintos or one brand new Lexus?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jawaid I. Abbasi
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/19/07

Loc: LEVITTOWN, PA
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: Jarrod]
      #5703698 - 02/27/13 03:27 PM

I did not want to jump in CHINESE discussion but I can say because I have 25+ years experiance in retail business. Two importent variables for consumers and that are Quality and buying power of a consumer.

China is producing both variables. Quality within reach for those who wants as good as "JAPANIES" and low cost goods for those who wants the product only. The cost of goods is proportion to demand.

Very soon, the babies will come from "CHINA" and labelled as Made in China

Chinese first targeted the consumer (low cost product) to gain market shares and build reserve then start making quality product with low markups. This way; they are now capturing the market day by day. I am not just talking about optics but almost every product which is available in United states.

This is only my personal opinion based on experiance and you may disagree with it


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
steve@37n83.9w
sage


Reged: 01/20/11

Loc: Kentucky
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: hallelujah]
      #5703777 - 02/27/13 04:14 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

Quote:

Steve,

Thanks for the photo. Your brand new Nikon 7x35 find, for $100, is a bargain.

I have been keeping my eyes open for a Nikon 9x35 as well.
I'm always looking for the lowest price.

Please send me a close-up photo of your 9x35 prism covers, via PM, so I can read the information better.

Thanks,

Stan




Stan

I had problems getting the pic to load on the PM so here is the close up of the prism covers.

Steve


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hallelujah
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/14/06

Loc: North Star over Colorado
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: steve@37n83.9w]
      #5703804 - 02/27/13 04:24 PM

Steve,

Thanks!

Stan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
TonyTowe
sage
*****

Reged: 07/21/09

Loc: North Georgia, USA
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #5704048 - 02/27/13 06:57 PM

Quote:

IMO, at this point in time, the Chinese are capable of producing the highest quality product. CNC equipment works the same everywhere.






You have to look at the quality of the CNC equipment too. The best still comes from Japan and Germany, but at a premium price. Most manufacturers opt to buy CNC equipment made in China, usually for half the cost (or even less). Why spend $500K on a CNC mill that will be depreciated off your asset books over the next 6 years when the market is flooded with models from China that can be bought for $150K. From what I've seen over the years I've spent in machining/manufacturing, there is a difference. The Chinese lathes, mills, and machining centers will not hold the tight tolerances of the German or Japanese equipment. My guess is that you will not find CNC equipment from either of these countries in a Chinese binocular factory (or any other factory for that difference). Let's face it, the world has demanded cheaper product, which means cheaper labor, cheaper production equipment, lower standards. It affects everything from your grandchildren's toys to your toys (on this forum, that would be optics).


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mapleton
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/06/09

Loc: United States
Re: Bang for the buck vs premium binocular keeper new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #5704052 - 02/27/13 07:00 PM

Quote:

IMO, at this point in time, the Chinese are capable of producing the highest quality product. CNC equipment works the same everywhere.

It's a question of price point and marketing that determines what's being made.




Machines don't make binoculars, men do. Machines do not engineer optical designs, men do. Machines do not operate themselves, men do.

If the Chinese could make a Swaro level bino, they would. but they don't. In fact, nothing from China even approaches the typical $1000 Japanese made bino.

If you believe you are correct, go to China and start a bino company and import them, sell them for a third the price as Swaro and you'll be rich.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (show all)


Extra information
6 registered and 29 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Knuklhdastrnmr, WOBentley 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 4792

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics