Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums
Privacy Policy |
Please read our Terms
of Service | Signup and
Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User
Pythagoras
journeyman
Reged: 07/20/09
Posts: 9
Loc: Arizona, USA
|
|
In July I bought a used William Optics bino set (with the barlow and pair of 20mm "SWAN" type eps), followed by a Siebert 1.3 OCA so I could use the binos with my 10" dob.
It was too hot in Phoenix to drag my scope out so (long story short...) I didn't try the binos until tonight. They came to focus fine, diopter adjustment seemed OK, IPD seems OK in midrange of the available angles. BUT best I could do on Jupiter is double image, about 6 to 8 Jupiter diameters apart or worse. Like the collimation is way off. Maybe they were dropped by previous owner(s), I don't know.
Is this sometime I could tackle myself with a little yankee ingenuity, or is that a really bad idea? If fixing them myself is out of the question, and I have no warranty (and WO has apparently retreated to Taiwan to survive the recession) is there someone who might be able to fix/adjust them? I see Earthwin mentioned - is there anyone else to consider for cost effective repair/collimation of these cheap chinese binos?
Thanks much for your insights. Jason
-------------------- ----------------------
Mesa, Arizona - East Valley Astronomy Club
Orion XT10i Dob on Johnsonian Type V EQP
Orion Apex 127mm Mak-Cass, Celestron ST80 achromat
Baader Hyperion 8-24mm zoom, TV Nag T5 16mm, Meade UWA 4.7mm, Orion Q70's
|
EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14727
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
|
|
My first question would be
Are you using eyepieces with safety undercuts that might be tilting one or both of the eyepieces a little off kilter?
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
|
Pythagoras
journeyman
Reged: 07/20/09
Posts: 9
Loc: Arizona, USA
|
|
Thanks Ed. I only tried the included WO 20mm's. These eyepiece holders are compression ring, and I tried rotating the ep's, the diopter settings, the holders, etc and it was still consistenly out of alignment. I guess I was wondering whether adjusting that is done down the eyepiece tube, through the nosepiece end, or does some cover panel have to be removed? I don't see many screws, maybe one or two rubber screw covers I could try to remove. Would an optics tech -- with these basic "$200" level units -- be looking to align a prism, or something else, to bring them into optimal collimation? I have a Mak-Cass I could use to work on them in daylight if necessary, and a laser collimator if I need a light source.
If anyone in central Arizona can do this I'd pay to watch.
Jason
|
mikey cee
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: bellevue ne.
|
|
Jason...I have the same unit. Mine are dead on...love 'em. There is a little black rubber pad that comes out on the left side. The screw underneath must be for collimating purposes. I'd look at it this way. I couldn't do any further damage...they're screwed up anyway. Play with the adjustment screw. I never tried but there might be something under the logo too. Either way it's still gonna cost you the same whether you try it yourself or have someone else do it. I see no other way of getting them adjusted and still be kept in operating mode at the same time. Mike
-------------------- 7x35 and 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957), 4.25" f/14.8 tasco 20te.
|
Pythagoras
journeyman
Reged: 07/20/09
Posts: 9
Loc: Arizona, USA
|
|
Thanks Mike, I agree with you as far as how much worse can it get, why not try, plus your insight about what can be tweaked while they are still operating does make a lot of sense. I did call Warren at Photon Instruments in Mesa, the only real 'scope store in metro Phoenix and he said he could fix them for $50 or less but I hate to give up my entire "X"stroMart pricing edge in one jolt...
|
mikey cee
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: bellevue ne.
|
|
Pyth....Keep us posted...I'll be all set to drop mine and start collimating soon too. Anyhoo it's entering unchartered waters like this that will help others in the future. I can't help but believe the same basic adjustment principals aren't used to some degree by all makers. Mike
-------------------- 7x35 and 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957), 4.25" f/14.8 tasco 20te.
|
GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1267
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
|
I have one of these BVs, given to me by a friend when he upgraded to a Denk. I'll have a look and see what I might be able to tweak... Could be a couple or few days before getting back to you, though...
In the meantime, try this. Look into the *front* tube, with no eyepieces or OCS in place. That is, the BV is fully 'naked.' When aiming toward a contrasy subject, you'll see two similar-brightness views almost overlapping. Tell us how displaced the two views are. A good target is the Moon, which is 1/2 degree (30-ish arcminutes) in diameter. If, for example, the two Moon images are overlapped by half a Moon diameter, the collimation error is about 15 arcminutes. From my experience, this error should be no greater than 1/4-1/3 of a Moon diameter.
Furthermore, observe how the displacement changes as you rotate the BV halves about the pivot, i.e., while making IPD adjustments.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
Edited by GlennLeDrew (10/09/09 08:06 PM)
|
GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1267
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
|
I had mine apart last night; the molded black plastic covers are simply attached with some spots of cement. I see that all prisms are fixed in place with set screws *and* blobs of grey-colored blocking cement. For the rhomboid prism which does not have the beam splitter element attached, there are two screws accessible from the outside, but you have to remove their covers. One cover is the aforementioned rubber nubbin, and the other, on the opposite of the housing, is a circular plate of aluminum (which I could not remove myself, however, but it is directly over a screw).
The screw located under the rubber thingie was impossible to turn, but it appeared to be somewhat corroded. (In fact, many of the set screws seemed to have some of this.) Perhaps it was set with loctite?? At any rate, these two screws are the ONLY possible means of making any kind of adjustment. They both push against the prism sides from opposite points, so you'll have to loosen one before tightening the other!
I hope it doesn't result in excessive scrape/dig marks getting that larger cover plate off!
Good luck!
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
|
mikey cee
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: bellevue ne.
|
|
Glenn...Thanks for sharing this insight with us. You must not use your set of BV's. I mean they aren't cosmetically ruined now with prying things apart? A repair shop must have to really tackle some aspect of this head on....getting these screws loose etc. You think a little penetrating oil is in order and still not wick into the prism area? Inquiring minds must know. Mike
-------------------- 7x35 and 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957), 4.25" f/14.8 tasco 20te.
|
EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14727
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
|
|
At least one binoviewer company has provided an instruction sheet (can't seem to put my hands on it right now) that describes collimation for their binoviewer. It is done at the eyepiece tube, not at the prisms. Directions point to which screws on the eyepiece tube, caution which ones not to turn, describe which one to turn, and the method of adjusting the tube.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
|
Mike Lynch
member
   
Reged: 04/07/06
Posts: 52
|
|
Even if the bino's are out of alignment, EdZ's question about the safety undercuts possibly tilting the eyepieces is one any user of binoviewers needs to keep in mind. I often find my eyepieces of this type appearing to give me double views which can be "cured" by carefully re-seating the eyepieces. In fact, I can usually tell that one or the other is tilted as soon as I release it and re-seat it. Almost always works immediately!
Mike Lynch Frankfort KY USA
|
GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1267
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
|
mikey, The BV was already kind of ruined. The former owner had naively cleaned the exposed prism apertures wihout first blowing out any dirt that must have been present. The surfaces have the appearance of having been worked over with a Brillo pad. The coatings are 95% *gone*, and there are a wicked number of circular sleeks which introduce horrendous scatter from diffraction. Hence my willingness to undertake some surgery.
I can say that this WO unit appears to have no collimation adjustments at either of the eyepiece barrels. The barrels are quite firmly screwed into the housing, and cannot be moved nor tilted.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
|
mikey cee
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: bellevue ne.
|
|
Glenn....Sounds like WO's are indestructable and Pyth has developed double vision. Mike
-------------------- 7x35 and 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957), 4.25" f/14.8 tasco 20te.
|
EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14727
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
|
|
Quote:
In the meantime, try this. Look into the *front* tube, with no eyepieces or OCS in place. That is, the BV is fully 'naked.' When aiming toward a contrasy subject, you'll see two similar-brightness views almost overlapping. Tell us how displaced the two views are. A good target is the Moon, which is 1/2 degree (30-ish arcminutes) in diameter. If, for example, the two Moon images are overlapped by half a Moon diameter, the collimation error is about 15 arcminutes. From my experience, this error should be no greater than 1/4-1/3 of a Moon diameter.
Glenn, I tried this with my Denks. Looking thru backwards, I'd guesstimate that the fovs were off by about 5%, or at least a few percent. At any rate, small, but obvious.
However, I was out observing the other night with these same Denks in my TV and I observed an equal mag 8 3 arcsecond pair perfectly split. When I relaxed my eyes to look for any miscollimation, the same way I do with binoculars, the stars in this pair snapped right together. I would declare this pair of binoviewers to have less than 3 arcseconds collimation error, error so small I can't see it. That does not seem to agree with the % difference in fov method.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
|
Pythagoras
journeyman
Reged: 07/20/09
Posts: 9
Loc: Arizona, USA
|
|
Quote:
I had mine apart last night; the molded black plastic covers are simply attached with some spots of cement. I see that all prisms are fixed in place with set screws *and* blobs of grey-colored blocking cement. For the rhomboid prism which does not have the beam splitter element attached, there are two screws accessible from the outside, but you have to remove their covers. (ETC)
Wow Glenn, that little bit of info is golden. I'll pry my covers off and see where this rabbit hole goes. Can't use the unit as is, and I am not the type to sell them in this condition so here goes - I'll provide some specific experiences and hopefully a few pictures of the process. Thank you to everyone for chiming in. Our club's big star party is this weekend near Tucson and I'm fixing up my gear to be there in one-eye mode but I'll post here as soon as I can.
|
GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1267
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
|
Ed, I'm not quite sure of what you mean when you say the FOVs are off by 5%. In the 'looking backwards through the BV' test, one does not leave the eyepieces in, nor is there any kind of OCS in place, either. Only the bare, flat-faced optical elements which have no optical power can be present. Then it's only a matter of looking at a target sufficiently distant so that parallax is not an issue. The Moon is great for this, but so are far away street lights and the like. If mis-collimation is present to any detectable degree, there will be not one image but two.
If a BV evidences mis-collimation of the prisms but during use is essentially perfectly collimated, then there likely exists some form of translation (the more lilely) or tilt (less likely) of one or both eyepiece barrels to compensate.
I've not had the opportunity to closely examine a Denk...yet.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
|
EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14727
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
|
|
Quote:
If a BV evidences mis-collimation of the prisms (by the reverse viewing method) but during use is essentially perfectly collimated, then there likely exists some form of translation (the more lilely) or tilt (less likely) of one or both eyepiece barrels to compensate.
I agree Glenn,
I did perform this test exactly as described. This morning I did so more accurately, on two primary targets and on many stars. Looking backwards thru the BV, no ocs.
First, single stars. Every single star I looked as was double.
Then the moon. The thin cresent along the bottom of the moon was doubled such that there was a thin black line between images of the cresent.
Then, in order to accurately measure, I observed a single star, but also with theta1-theta2 Taurus in the field of view for comparison. t1-t2 Taurus is approximately a 6 arcmin pair, an easy naked eye pair. The BV shows all single stars as doubles. It was easy to compare a single star seen as double image to that of the pair t1-t2, a double of known separation. Double image stars observed in the same fov as t1-t2 looked to be about 2/3rds as wide as t1-t2. So this provides me with a measure of the reverse viewed error at about 3.5 to 4 arcminutes.
Yet, during observing in normal mode with eyepieces thru a telescope at 110x power, this binoviewer has less than 3 arcseconds of error. I also viewed at 200x and essentially saw no miscollimation error. FWIW, 4 arcmin of error would be a devastating error at 110x. For comparison, 4 arcmin miscollimation error would be the approx allowable error for a 12x to 15x binocular and experience tells me that my eyes cannot accept the allowable errors, but only about half allowable error is agreeable to me. At 110x it would be magnified almost 10x that of a binocular.
My binoviewer shows nearly 4 arcminutes of error in reverse, yet shows less than 3 arcseconds of error in use. That's a factor of 240 versus 3 or 80:1. Even if I've overestimated the backwards view error and it is only 3 arcminutes, that's still 60:1. That could potentially mean that you could see 15 arcminutes of error backwards (half a moon width) yet have only 15 arcseconds of error in use (acceptable probably up to about 150x).
This reverse test may not translate directly to miscollimation error. It ignores the fact that there could be conditional alignment in the eyepiece barrels compensating for small errors in the prisms. In fact, as I mentioned above, one BV supplier publishes instructions to perform collimation at the eyepiece collets and to not touch the prisms. I will note however, IIRC I have used an external adjustment screw on a Stellervue BV3.
But my conclusion is this, I don't see this reverse view as a reliable test of collimation. I would still recommend to anyone that they observe thru the BV at normal powers, preferably observe a double of known separation, and actually measure any miscollimation that might be present in actual use. A good double to measure gross error is nu Draco. it's 62 arcseconds, essentially 1 arcmin. There are many other closer doubles that can be used.
t1-t2 Taurus 337 arcsec or 5.6 arcmin
e1 e2 Lyra 207”
56 And 190”
39 Cnc 150”
nu Draco 62"
16 Cyg 39”
Alya, theta Serpens, 22"
100 herc 14"
Mesartim, gamma Aries, 7.8"
95 herc 6.3"
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
|
GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1267
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
|
Ed, Your BV error of no more than 4 arcminutes makes it pretty decent!
Note that in the past I've pointed out that *angular* error resulting from the non-parallel emerging images *does not* tanslate into proportional angular errors in the eyepieces as calculated from magnification.
So a 10 arcminute prism error doesn't equate to a 1,000 arcminute error if the magnification is 100X.
This is because the source of divergence is not the telescope's objective, but instead is either the beam splitter or another prism within the BV, either of which is *very* much closer to the focal surfaces than the objective is.
The degree of relative image offset in the eyepieces depends on their *linear* displacement, which is determined from the prism angle error and the distance between the source of divergence and the plane of image focus.
For example, assume a prism error of 10 arcminutes (0.167 deg.) and distance of 100mm between beam splitter and plane of focus. How much of a *linear* displacement does this result in?
A = angle error (degrees) L = linear displacement D = distance from point of divergence to plane of focus
L = TAN(A) * D L = TAN(0.1667) * 100 L = 0.0029 * 100 L = 0.29mm
No matter what telescope the BV is attached to, the images will be offset relative to each other by 0.29mm. This is why a BV with a given pair of eyepieces works equally well on any telescope, even though the magnification (which depends on the scope's focal length) can vary *wildly*.
So a small short tube refractor using a BV and its included eyepiece set will show the identical degree of miscollimation as would a 25" light bucket with the same BV/eyepieces attached. Angular offswet as seen in the eyepieces is not magnification-dependant in and of itself.
It depends only on the eyepiece focal length. Let's say a pair of 20mm eyepieces have field stop diameters of 29mm. That 0.29mm offset is 1/100 the apparent field of view. Now if we change to a pair of 10mm eyepieces having field stop diameters of 14.5mm (i.e., half that of the 20's, meaning similar apparent FOV's), that 0.29mm offset will now be 1/50 of the apparent field. Again, this will be the identical situation no matter what 'scope the BV is attached to.
The best way to correct for this is to build in an adjustment which allows one or both of the eyepiece focuser units to be translated laterally. Using our example, all it would take to compensate for miscollimation of the prisms is to move one of the focuser barrels 0.29mm in the appropriate direction.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
|
EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14727
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
|
|
Thanks Glenn,
what I think I'm still missing out of all that is,
how does 4 arcminutes of error using the reverse non-magnified view translate to essentially no error (in my case less than 3 arcseconds) in the view?
Or does it mean that just because I see 4 arcminutes of error in reverse doesn't mean there will be any miscollimation in the image thru the eyepieces?
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
|
GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1267
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
|
Ed, The 4 minute error is working over an essentially short distance, generally no greater than about 4 inches, depending on the source (beam splitter, or other prism surface even closer to the eyepiece.) Calculate the offset of 4 tiny arcminutes over that short 4-inch throw, and you'll see how the 'optical leverage' is pretty small.
In my example given earlier you'll recall a lateral translation of the image of only 0.29mm. If this is about 1/100 of the field stop diameter for a 60 deg. AFoV eyepiece, it equates to an apparent angle on the retina of 0.6 degrees, or 36 arcminutes.
Of course, this figure in isolation does not take into account such things as the split optical axis locations with respect to both eyepiece barrel mechanical axes. It could turn out that the image doubling is *necessary* in order that the images be positioned similarly in both barrels. In other words, the doubling could well have been deliberately introduced during assembly by positioning one or more of the prisms.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that the image doubling due to prism error is only a *small* part of the equation. Indeed, it can very well mean nothing if it's the necessary result when collimating at the factory.
Another way to understand this is to consider the well-known method of bino collimation which employs objective eccentric rings. This method effectively 'slides' each image up/down and left/right until both are seen to overlap.
The bino objectives could concievably (and in many cases almost certainly) have to be positioned so that the optical axis of each is *not* passing through the center of its respective eyepiece. In general, the degree of lateral translation that can be effected here is small enough that the non-coincidence of optical axes results in no significant degree of *optical* mis-collimation of that half of the bino when considered in isolation.
Binoviewers posessing positional adjustments for the eyepiece barrels do the very same thing, but in reverse, so to speak. Instead of manipulating the optics 'generating' the images, the eyepieces themselves are 'slid' around laterally until the images merge. Even if the optical axis of the image plane in one or both eyepieces is offset from the eyepice optical axes by a significant fraction of the field diameter, no perceptible injury to the image should result. This is because the f/ratio of the imaging objective is generally no faster than f/5 (f/7+ being more common), and the effective 'tilt' between the objective and eyepiece optical axes is miniscule.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
|
|
2 registered and 1 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: EdZ, jrcrilly
Print Thread
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Thread views: 844
|
|
|
|
|
|
|