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Equipment Discussions >> Binoviewers

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MikeBOKC
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Denk Binotron rollout
      #5597565 - 12/31/12 09:17 AM

Saw an item in the February Sky and Telescope on this new system from Denk . . . looks like quite the upgrade for them! It does not appear to be out to retailers yet, but apparently can be ordered direct from Denk.

http://deepskybinoviewer.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&catego...


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Jim7728
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5597646 - 12/31/12 10:09 AM

Dang! Why was I not informed of this sooner?

Just bought a TV Bino-vue, but may have gone for the Binotron.


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Eddgie
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5597712 - 12/31/12 10:45 AM

Very nice looking unit. I Looks like they have partially emulated the Maxbright in the Collet area.

Curious to see what the normal retail price will be, but it looks like they have a great new product.

I am not a fan of the power-switch type units, and in particular, would like to know if they will allow mating to the Baader prisms for those that need a short light path.

And of course how much the bino head itself will be sold for.


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mich_al
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5598052 - 12/31/12 02:03 PM

Quote:

I am not a fan of the power-switch type units,



What don't you like about them? I'm trying to wade thru the info needed to buy some binoviewers.


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Eddgie
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: mich_al]
      #5598104 - 12/31/12 02:40 PM

In low power mode, the powerswitch caused aperture reduction in both my EdgeHD 8" and my C14. It is almost impossible to use any kind of reducer together with Binoviewers in an SCT and not loose any aperture, and the loss with the Denkmeier was extreme in both scopes. Far more than I can tolerate.

And the high power arm resulted in a power that was too big a step from the straight though for my tastes.

So, I found the low power arm induced aperture loss to be totally unacceptable, and since the jump to the high power arm was just too big, I found myself using intermediate powers which required a lot of eyepeice changing.

There is no way to get any meaningful focal reduction using binoviewers in an SCT without accepting aperture loss.

If someone using an SCT is willing to accept that though (and many are) then I think the supersystem is an easy way to change powers. To me though, if one is willing to accept a smaller apeture, why not just get a smaller telescope that has a wider field to begin with?


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Denimsky
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5598132 - 12/31/12 03:00 PM

Quote:

To me though, if one is willing to accept a smaller apeture, why not just get a smaller telescope that has a wider field to begin with?




Still you get the full aperture with the other two power factors. Am I right?
Then the power switch system is still useful and convenient.

And you lose aperture with the reduction arm but this power isn't available without the reducer anyway so what do we lose here?

For me, Binos without power switch system is a deal breaker. It is too much hassle for me to switch two eyepieces. Especially it is quite dewy here that I live and it is even more difficult to switch them with dew strips involved.


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Denimsky
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Denimsky]
      #5598140 - 12/31/12 03:04 PM

I'm just wondering if I need to upgrade my super system.
If I plan to, I should act quickly otherwise my super system will not worth anything soon

Edited by Denimsky (12/31/12 03:05 PM)


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johnnyha
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Denimsky]
      #5598300 - 12/31/12 04:23 PM

I go along with Eddgie I am not a big fan of the PowerXSwitch. But if that thing has a T2 connection up front, I'm interested. Kudos to Denkmeier! This will set the bar for the new ES binoviewer that is being discussed.

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DaveJ
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5598337 - 12/31/12 04:47 PM

Quote:

...But if that thing has a T2 connection up front, I'm interested.




Congrats to Russ Lederman at Denkmeier for the new binoviewers, but I don't see anything at all on the linked site to indicate it has anything at all resembling a T2 connection. As a matter of fact, I highly doubt it - but I'm hoping I'm wrong on that.


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Eddgie
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Denimsky]
      #5598350 - 12/31/12 04:52 PM

Hey, what works for you works for you, but it didn't work at all for me.

The question was asked what I didn't like about them and I answered. And I was clear to say that others might not be bothered by this, but it bothers me.

I sold my C11 to move to a C14, so I don't see any great desire to turn my C14 back into a C11.

But again, this is me. It might be fine for everyone else, because everyting is a compromise in one way or another.

So, I just answered the question that was asked and did not suggest that everyone else was wrong for doing this. It just did not work at all for me personally.

If others are willing to accept the reduced contrast and brightness (which is already being reduced by the binoviewers themselves) then that is great by me. They get to look through their telescopes and decide what is best for them, and I get to look though mine and decide what is best for me.


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Denimsky
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5598375 - 12/31/12 05:05 PM

Eddgie, I'm not saying that you don't have valid point and I respect your opinion because I know you are a very knowledgeable person about optics.

What I like to know is that the Denk II still loses the aperture for the other two magnification factor (not the reduction arm is used): I think it is 1.2X and 2.8X.

If it doesn't lose aperture with 1.2X and 2.8X, 0.66X is just a bonus with some compromises.
If it loses the aperture all the time, that seems a serious problem.

So that (is it losing the aperture for 1.2X and 2.8X) seems to be more useful information than the fact that the power switch loses aperture used with the reduction arm used.

Edited by Denimsky (12/31/12 05:12 PM)


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johntrob
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Denimsky]
      #5598438 - 12/31/12 05:39 PM

Some people look at it as raw, dead fish (bait) others see it as sushi.

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: johntrob]
      #5598480 - 12/31/12 06:03 PM

Intriguing, indeed! I really like the new user collimation system; about time! I've long advocated for the inclusion of no-tools collimation in all binocular equipment, as I've been doing for my own home-made gear since '96.

Clearly, at least one manufacturer out there has been paying attention to forums like this, where the incessant bleating of the herd about merging issues can't be missed.


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mich_al
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5598657 - 12/31/12 07:58 PM

Eddgie
Thanks for the input. I'm finding binoviewers have more of a learning curve than many other things.


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bcuddihee
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: mich_al]
      #5598767 - 12/31/12 09:20 PM

I did run a light protection test on my c8 with the power switch and the reducer reduced effective aperture to a hair over 6 inches. Straight through I was measuring around 7-3/8 effective aperture, the mag mode showed almost no aperture reduction. Just my results and in no way difinative other than that it did substantiate the effect of the power switch in the reduction of aperture. In addition...with the reduction of aperture with the CO being a constant, the CO percentage increases as well. Hope this helps.

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Paul G
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5599268 - 01/01/13 09:42 AM

In the S&T review didn't they note that the power switch introduced some optical aberrations?

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Eddgie
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Denimsky]
      #5599470 - 01/01/13 12:11 PM

Quote:

What I like to know is that the Denk II still loses the aperture for the other two magnification factor (not the reduction arm is used): I think it is 1.2X and 2.8X.




Remember, this problem is somewhat unique to telescopes with moving mirror focusing and baffles, though it could be encountered in some refractors if the in-focus allows the front of the focuser tube to cut into the light cone, which is a very real possibility in some cases.

To answer the question though, in the case of the MCT, I was loosing apeture in reduced mode (severe aperture loss) and staight through mode (minor loss).

This has to do with the fact that the Super-system I used was based on the use of a 2" diagonal.

The C14 and C8 both start to loose aperture once the back focus goes past about 200mm. The C9.25 I think starts loosing aperture once the back focus goes above about 170mm and the falloff is quick.

As an example, in my C5, as measured directly, I am using a back focus of 203mm, and the 127mm scope is being reduced to 122mm.


The Denkmeier System I used was based on a 2" diagonal, and the entire back focus required to use it was about 230mm or so.

With 230mm of back focus, the C14 is working at slighly less than 14" of apeture (Maybe 13.75") and the C8 would be working at about7.7". The plot that I have for the C9 suggests that the 230mm of back focus would give an aperture of 8.75".

Because the aperture is reduced, the central obstruction becomes bigger by percentage of aperture so the contrast is further lowered.

This is in straight through mode.

With the High Power arm in, the back focus requirment is reduced. I don't know how much it changes, but this would mean that the high power arm will give the system more apeture than straight though, because the mirror needs to be moved back slighly to re-position the focal plane.

Now I can only be fair about this and say that many people (perhaps most people) will not care about this very slight loss in performance.

So, it only matter if it matters, but for those that want to get the absolute best performance from their SCT or refractor, they want to make sure that they are not working with a reduced aperture.

If the new Denkmeier can be attached to a Baader Prism or other device that will shorten the light path, aperture loss can be reduced or prevented in SCTs, MCTs, and many refractors that were not designed to allow a full apeture when the focuser was fully racked in (and this is not at all unusual, though after the Stellarvue debacle 10 years ago, I think it doesn't happen so much anymore).

Again, the back focus is the issue, and the point where aperture loss is very model specific (The C11 has the loosest baffle of the Celstron SCTs).

But if the back focus is over 200mm, most SCTs will start loosing aperture, which means in straight through or reducer mode, many will work at reduced aperture. With the high power arm in, the amount of apeture reduction will either be reduced, or in some cases, perhaps even eliminated.

The key to doing this in these scopes is the Baader approach where the binoviewer attaches directly to the top of the diagonal and keeping the connection to the telescope as short as possible.

If someone wanted to use the new Denkmeier in an SCT and keep the system working at full apeture, they would need to go to a Baader type diagonal with a short connector (Like the Baader SCT connector which only adds 15mm of back focus) and the Prism, which only adds I think 38mm of back focus. The Mark V binos add about 120mm of back focus, so this system will have a total requirement of about 173mm.

But in my Denkmeier, the power-switch alone added 18mm of back focus, so right there, if you go with a standard 2" SCT adapter and a standard lenght 2" nose, even if you used a Baader type diagonal, you are well over 200mm, which is the point that many SCT models will start to loose aperture.

Here are the numbers....

The Baader SCT adapter requires 15mm of back focus.

The Baader Prism requires about 38mm of back focus.

the Power Switch requires about 18mm of back focus (unless they have made it thinner).

A large prism bino will require about 120mm of back focus (this is what the Mark v requries).

Add this up and you get 191mm. If someone wants to use a powerswitch and avoid aperture loss with a moving mirror scope even in straight though mode, this will be the best configuration to use.

A 2" diagonal alone will put you well over 200mm, even if it is the Baader 2" diagonal.


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faackanders2
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: mich_al]
      #5599729 - 01/01/13 02:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I am not a fan of the power-switch type units,



What don't you like about them? I'm trying to wade thru the info needed to buy some binoviewers.




Power switches are the best part of Denkmeier binoviewers. I loved the first one so much I got the reducer/multiplier one as well and bothe powerswitches stay perminently mounted on (with the reducer side being used as my finder mode). Next couple this with the 48m OCS (45mm clear aperture 1.2x Multiplier or 38mm clear aperture 1.4x Newtonian and 1.8x? Multiplier OCSs) and this gives me 3x3x3=27 power options per pair of eyepieces. I have two eyepieces pairs 24mm 68 AFOV and 14mm 82AFOV so this technically gives me 27x2=54 total power options, although the 14mm and Multiplier OCS combination is not that usefull - just too much power with my 17.5" f4.1 dob.

In summary, "Powerswitches Rule!", and are so much quicker and cheaper than buying multiple pairs of eyepieces.

Now I don't have the Denk filterswitch, but have the 2" Astrocrum filter slide instead, and this enables me to swap filters quickly even with Denk 2" OCS intrusion (except for the very lowest o.89x? power intrusion), but I still love the Astrocrumb filter slide also.


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faackanders2
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5599738 - 01/01/13 02:32 PM

Quote:

Intriguing, indeed! I really like the new user collimation system; about time! I've long advocated for the inclusion of no-tools collimation in all binocular equipment, as I've been doing for my own home-made gear since '96.

Clearly, at least one manufacturer out there has been paying attention to forums like this, where the incessant bleating of the herd about merging issues can't be missed.




Glen, I really didn't understand the "self-colimating" featuture, especially when indoors. I'd be affraid to make colimation worse, and proably ony use it if I couldn't merge (i.e last resort, like cleaning eyepieces).


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johnnyha
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5599779 - 01/01/13 02:59 PM

The PowerXSwitch reduces the clear aperture of the Denk IIs by at least a mm if not a little more, in addition to introducing extra glass and extra weight. It requires a huge amount of re-focusing for different powers. It requires extra backfocus. It can vignette the view and reduce the aperture of the scope. But what really made me stop using mine forever was when I had to send it in for repairs - I just really, really enjoyed using the binoviewers without those big handles sticking out, or constantly messing with them.

When the PowerXSwitch came back from repair I sold it.

All that being said, it works well at what it does, is built solidly, and has given me some of my best views of Saturn in my 15" dob.


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Eddgie
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5599822 - 01/01/13 03:24 PM

I think that in a Newtonian, the benefits of the Powerswitch are far greater.

In an SCT, it entials a lot of compromise though, and since my primary scope is an SCT, the powerswitch simply did not work to my satisfaction.

But for a Newtonian, I am sure it is everything everyone says it is.

Also, I did not like it at all on my 6" APO. It put me into a high power box. With the reducer arm in, the view was so dim that it seemed like I was looking trough an 80mm refactor.

Also, to get the "Advertised" 1.3x from the Denk Supersystem in a refractor, you have to use the Denkmeier diagonal (or some other diagonal that has the same threads). Otherwise, the OCS yeilds about 1.4x rather than 1.3x. Denkmeier doesn't clearly say this on their web page, but in the User's Guide it explains that the benefit of the Denkmeier Diagonal is that it lowers the magnification factor from 1.4x to 1.3x.

Frankly, I didn't like finding that out. I felt kind of deceived by the web page.

Anyway, I did not find it to be all that useful in my 6" APO because I don't use that scope for planets, so the high power arm was of no particular benefit to me in that scope.

Again, I think in a Newt or a refactor that will reach focus without the OCS, this would be a great way to go!


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faackanders2
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5599870 - 01/01/13 03:53 PM

Newtonian reflectors definitely require OCS's to focus (believe the same is true for refractors as well).

Also believe star sweeper OCS can only be used by SCTs.


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Eddgie
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #5599884 - 01/01/13 04:01 PM

Quote:

I did run a light protection test on my c8 with the power switch and the reducer reduced effective aperture to a hair over 6 inches. Straight through I was measuring around 7-3/8 effective aperture, the mag mode showed almost no aperture reduction. Just my results and in no way difinative other than that it did substantiate the effect of the power switch in the reduction of aperture. In addition...with the reduction of aperture with the CO being a constant, the CO percentage increases as well. Hope this helps.




Thanks for sharing this data.

Can you tell me what your configuration was, or do you happen to know the back focus for the entire system? I am collecting this info for reference to use when this topic comes up again.

I personally an not at all surprised by the numbers. I know that the first time I used the low power arm in my C14, something was seriously wrong. The view was nothing short of horrible! I remember thinking that it looked like I was looking though a C10!!! I did not do a measurment, but I estimate that the aperture was less than 11"!

Straight though, It was about 13.3". This does not sound like much, but I could see the difference (and this is about a 12% difference in image brightness so anyone should be able to see this. Eyepiece forum guys can see a 4% difference.. LOL).

Also, you might be interested to know that using the Baader diagonal and the Glee Telescopressor, AstroJensen was able to get his C8 to work with only 10mm aperture loss. This is about as good as it gets with an SCT and a reducer. I am not aware of another configuration that comes close to this. But he was also using the Maxbright Binoviewer, and while this unit has smaller prisms, it also has 10mm less light path than the Mark Vs and even the standard Denk. I suspect that the new Binotron will have at least as much as the mark V, and maybe more.

I do not know if he used the Baader SCT to T2 converter in his light path or not, but if he didn't this might improve the situation a bit. But again, he was using the Maxbrigth/T2 which is the shortest light path in the bino world that I know of.

But thanks for confirming this message. I don't want people to think I make this stuff up.. LOL.

Bottom line is that a focal reducer (low power arm) and binoviewer used with just about any SCT made will entail a pretty serious aperture reduction, and 2" based systems will often not work at full aperture on many SCTs even in straight through mode.

This is why I went to the Mark V/T2 Prism. It gives the shortest possible back focus in a large prism bino when used in an SCT.

And while some SCTs may still loose a bit of apeture, this will give them the largest possible aperture in a big prism bino. You only trade a couple of millimaters of aperture but this is compensated for by being able to use a 24mm Pan or similar so you can get reasonably larger true field.


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Eddgie
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5599938 - 01/01/13 04:43 PM

By the way.. No one should think that I am slamming the Binotron in any way. I think it is an exciting new product! Just want to make sure that the powerswitch issue was clearly and cleanly addressed. This is just an SCT issue, but an important one if you own an SCT.

And this.. If Denkmeier is smart, they will introduce a very short back focus solution, or list a dovetail adapter that would allow the use of the Baader prism on their web page.

Just going to the T2 prism can save anywhere from 15mm to 50mm of back focus.

And no one should use a 2" diagonal on a binoviewer in an SCT. Not only does it usually reduce the aperture, but it also makes a big increase in focal lenght, which raises magnificaiton and reduces field size.

This is what made the Mark V so attractive to me, and unless Denkmeier can counter, people that have done their homework may still move to the Mark V because of the shorter light path.

Home run for Newt onwers though. Beautiful unit. I am impressed.

Edited by Eddgie (01/01/13 04:44 PM)


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bcuddihee
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5599961 - 01/01/13 05:04 PM

I don't know the back focus numbers but I am using a William Optics 2" diagonal with a WO SCT threaded adapter to couple it to the visual back (no nose piece). The power switch is attached directly to the top of the diagonal(the S2 config),with binos with 2" adapter sitting on top. actually I got some heat on one of the threads for making a point of the aperture reduction issue, as if I was trying to put down SCT's or something. Nothing could be further from the case. The C8 I own is one of the best examples I've seen and I wouldn't part with it for a even 6"AP...........well maybe:)
bc


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bcuddihee
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #5599969 - 01/01/13 05:06 PM

PS...I really like the convenience of power switch...you should be aware though of its limitations. I regularly use the barlow mode as it works well with the ep fl's I have chosen as my workhorses.

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Denimsky
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5599971 - 01/01/13 05:07 PM

Thank you very much Ed.

It was very useful to understand the big picture regarding the Binoviewer.


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Eddgie
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #5600066 - 01/01/13 06:10 PM

Ok, these adapters look like they have about 30mm of back focus.

A 2" diagonal will usually have about 100mm from the front of the mirror box to the top of the eyepeice holder, but I am unsure from your discription if there is an eyepeice holder or if the switch somehow attaches directly or the eyepeice barrel is removed from the diagonal and the switch screws into it???

If it is a typical 2" diagonal and eyepiece though, the back focus will be 100mm.

The light switch I think is about 18 or 20mm.

The binoviwer is about 120mm.

About 270mm of back focus...

A picture would help me understand the configuration though.

But if you are using 260mm of back focus, the focal length of your system is about 2550mm.

You should see about converting to a Baader diagonal and SCT adapter. This can cut a couple of hundred millimeters off of your focal lenght and give you back some aperture in straight through mode.


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5600115 - 01/01/13 06:40 PM

It would be useful to include in the Binotron's specs on-line some detail on the user collimation feature. This could go some way toward alleviating doubt or skepticism among some, and swing over yet more prospective buyers. Based on the awfully brief and vague 'ad copy' on the matter so far, I do nonetheless feel it to be a most important feature which will ease the lot of all observers. I'm certain it's designed so that one cannot ever put it permanently out of whack.

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johnnyha
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #5600132 - 01/01/13 06:48 PM

Quote:

PS...I really like the convenience of power switch...you should be aware though of its limitations. I regularly use the barlow mode as it works well with the ep fl's I have chosen as my workhorses.



Well it's certainly easier than switching out Baader Glasspath Correctors!


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faackanders2
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5600191 - 01/01/13 07:28 PM

"And no one should use a 2" diagonal on a binoviewer in an SCT. Not only does it usually reduce the aperture, but it also makes a big increase in focal lenght, which raises magnificaiton and reduces field size."

Could 1.25" diagonal be why I do not like binoviewing with solarmax 40mm, and only like binoviewing weith my large dobsonian? I don't own a refractor nor SCT.


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Eddgie
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5600234 - 01/01/13 07:56 PM

The the size of the diagonal should not change the optical performance (except for very fast telescopes), but it does make the back focus requirement less than a 2" diagonal.

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drprovi57
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5600237 - 01/01/13 07:58 PM

I am currently waiting a delivery of a Planewave CDK 12.5 and I am interested in using the new Binotron 27 for some occasional visual observing. I would be interested in any thoughts or comments on binoviewers with a CDK.

Thanks
Jason


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: drprovi57]
      #5600387 - 01/01/13 09:49 PM

If the CDK has the focus placed sufficiently far back so as to accommodate the considerable optical path length of the BV setup, it'll work well enough. The CDK's larger central obstruction will slightly impact fine scale contrast, but only in the higher magnification regime, where the exit pupil is getting down to close to 1mm.

The primary concern, really, is available back focus, as the CDK has its mirrors at fixed separation.


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rick rian
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5600866 - 01/02/13 08:56 AM

Quote:

It would be useful to include in the Binotron's specs on-line some detail on the user collimation feature. This could go some way toward alleviating doubt or skepticism among some, and swing over yet more prospective buyers. Based on the awfully brief and vague 'ad copy' on the matter so far, I do nonetheless feel it to be a most important feature which will ease the lot of all observers. I'm certain it's designed so that one cannot ever put it permanently out of whack.




Agreed! I'd be interested in the binos minus the power switch feature, I wonder if he'll offer that ...


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bcuddihee
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: rick rian]
      #5600881 - 01/02/13 09:10 AM Attachment (73 downloads)

Eddgie, here is a pic of my config.

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Eddgie
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #5601248 - 01/02/13 01:17 PM

That is about as short as you can get using a 2" diagonal i would say.

I would guess that the SCT connector is about 15mm. Pretty short. The light path though a 2" diagonal body is usually about 75mm. As I recall, the powerswitch itself is about 18mm. It looks like the eyepeice holder is about 35mm, and the light path though the bino is I think is about 120mm.

So, this is about 263mm of back focus.

According to Ken Hudchinson's SCT vignetting analysis, your scope would be working at right about 7.3" which is good to hear because it matches perfectly with your own measurment!!! I have had people question Ken's work, but in this case, it appears to agree quite well with an actual measured scope.


But you might be able to get even less if you can go to the Baader Prism.

Someone showed an adapter that they used to connect a Denk to a Baader prism.

This would save you about 35mm from the eyepeice holder, and at least 30mm from the diagonal light path.

If you could reduce the back focus this much, you would get your C8 to work at maybe 201mm, which would be a nice improvement.

And I was a bit conservative with my estimates, but you can always measure yourself to see if the savings would be worth it.

But this is why I like the Baader system so much, and don't like the Powerswitch on the SCT. Every millimater matters and the Baader/Mark V is right at 200mm in my current configuration.

Anyway, you could restore most of the aperture you are loosing now by going to the T2 diagonal and connecting the powerswitch directly to the T2.

I think Jonny showed an adapter for this not long ago.

Thanks for the picture, and if you ever get around to measuring the light path directly so we can get an accurate number, I would appreciate knowing it.

Edited by Eddgie (01/02/13 01:38 PM)


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johnnyha
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5601264 - 01/02/13 01:29 PM

Brendan - can you elaborate on the fan/diagonal? I've never sen that...

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DaveJ
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5601305 - 01/02/13 02:01 PM

Quote:

But you might be able to get even less if you can go to the Baader Prism. This would save you about 35mm from the eyepeice holder, and at least 30mm from the diagonal light path.




Actually, he can cut out the 35mm wasted by the eyepiece holder/2" bino nosepiece by using the Denkmeier dovetail connector in place of the 2" nosepiece. See the two silver thumbscrews above the PowerXswitch? They are holding the 2" eyepiece holder in place. Instead of using that configuration, Denkmeier has a very shallow dovetail connector that screws to the bottom of the binoviewers instead of a 1.25" or 2" nosepiece. The random variable in this case is its use with the OCS and PowerXswitch configuration. They may require the 35mm of the 2" eyepiece holder to allow the system to come to focus.
For a photo & description of the aforementioned dovetail connector, go to the Denkmeier site and scroll about half-way to the end of the page until you come to the "About the Dovetail Connector" paragraph.


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bcuddihee
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: DaveJ]
      #5601494 - 01/02/13 04:02 PM

Johnny, I don't want to hijack this thread but I did a write up on this active cooling mod a while back. I did this project in two parts..I'll attach both links. The mod BTW works great. Check it out

Venting an SCT questions??????

passive air vent

Edited to shorten the links. Thank you for the pointers Brendan!

Edited by Richard McC (01/03/13 02:04 AM)


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johnnyha
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #5601518 - 01/02/13 04:17 PM

Thanks I will check that out!

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beatlejuice
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5601627 - 01/02/13 05:25 PM

what happened to make this thread twice as wide as it was at the start? Annoying!

Eric


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: beatlejuice]
      #5601709 - 01/02/13 06:26 PM

The last post on page two has ridiculously long hyperlinks. They should have been shortened, as per the suggestions/guidelines posted at the tops of at least most Forums.

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bcuddihee
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5601757 - 01/02/13 07:03 PM

Eric..i was simply trying to answer a question. Sorry for yor inconvienience.

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beatlejuice
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #5601926 - 01/02/13 08:41 PM

Quote:

Eric..i was simply trying to answer a question. Sorry for yor inconvienience.





Isn't this convient link
the same link without the extra length?

Eric


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bcuddihee
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: beatlejuice]
      #5601936 - 01/02/13 08:48 PM

yes it is.. but isn't civility even more desirable.

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beatlejuice
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #5601954 - 01/02/13 08:56 PM

Quote:

yes it is.. but isn't civility even more desirable.





No incivility implied on my part, I was just pointing out a better way of doing something as I am sure there are others who dislike having to scroll in both directions to read a thread. If you are not sure how to do it I would be happy to guide you.

Cheers

Eric


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panhard
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #5601958 - 01/02/13 08:57 PM

Shorter links are desired.

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drprovi57
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5603776 - 01/03/13 10:03 PM

Thank you for the insights.. The CDK 12.5 has about 7" of back focus , so should work

Best
Jason


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Mr. Bill
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: drprovi57]
      #5604783 - 01/04/13 01:19 PM

I have the Denk IIs....other than picking up 1mm of clear aperture with the Binotrons (and collimation adjustment) what would I gain with the new model that would justify buying?

If I was starting from scratch, I certainly would buy the new model.



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Jim7728
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #5605134 - 01/04/13 04:18 PM

Quote:

If I was starting from scratch, I certainly would buy the new model.




Same here. Introduction price is a nice deal, but I'm not about to sell my Standard PX and TV Bino-vue for them.

FWIW, I like the power switch for Solar, Lunar and Planets. Gotta find that mod thread for mating the TV Bino-vue to the Denk PX.


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teskridg
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5606176 - 01/05/13 09:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

What I like to know is that the Denk II still loses the aperture for the other two magnification factor (not the reduction arm is used): I think it is 1.2X and 2.8X.





Remember, this problem is somewhat unique to telescopes with moving mirror focusing and baffles, though it could be encountered in some refractors if the in-focus allows the front of the focuser tube to cut into the light cone, which is a very real possibility in some cases.

To answer the question though, in the case of the MCT, I was loosing apeture in reduced mode (severe aperture loss) and staight through mode (minor loss).

This has to do with the fact that the Super-system I used was based on the use of a 2" diagonal.

The C14 and C8 both start to loose aperture once the back focus goes past about 200mm. The C9.25 I think starts loosing aperture once the back focus goes above about 170mm and the falloff is quick.

As an example, in my C5, as measured directly, I am using a back focus of 203mm, and the 127mm scope is being reduced to 122mm.


The Denkmeier System I used was based on a 2" diagonal, and the entire back focus required to use it was about 230mm or so.

With 230mm of back focus, the C14 is working at slighly less than 14" of apeture (Maybe 13.75") and the C8 would be working at about7.7". The plot that I have for the C9 suggests that the 230mm of back focus would give an aperture of 8.75".

Because the aperture is reduced, the central obstruction becomes bigger by percentage of aperture so the contrast is further lowered.

This is in straight through mode.

With the High Power arm in, the back focus requirment is reduced. I don't know how much it changes, but this would mean that the high power arm will give the system more apeture than straight though, because the mirror needs to be moved back slighly to re-position the focal plane.

Now I can only be fair about this and say that many people (perhaps most people) will not care about this very slight loss in performance.

So, it only matter if it matters, but for those that want to get the absolute best performance from their SCT or refractor, they want to make sure that they are not working with a reduced aperture.

If the new Denkmeier can be attached to a Baader Prism or other device that will shorten the light path, aperture loss can be reduced or prevented in SCTs, MCTs, and many refractors that were not designed to allow a full apeture when the focuser was fully racked in (and this is not at all unusual, though after the Stellarvue debacle 10 years ago, I think it doesn't happen so much anymore).

Again, the back focus is the issue, and the point where aperture loss is very model specific (The C11 has the loosest baffle of the Celstron SCTs).

But if the back focus is over 200mm, most SCTs will start loosing aperture, which means in straight through or reducer mode, many will work at reduced aperture. With the high power arm in, the amount of apeture reduction will either be reduced, or in some cases, perhaps even eliminated.

The key to doing this in these scopes is the Baader approach where the binoviewer attaches directly to the top of the diagonal and keeping the connection to the telescope as short as possible.

If someone wanted to use the new Denkmeier in an SCT and keep the system working at full apeture, they would need to go to a Baader type diagonal with a short connector (Like the Baader SCT connector which only adds 15mm of back focus) and the Prism, which only adds I think 38mm of back focus. The Mark V binos add about 120mm of back focus, so this system will have a total requirement of about 173mm.

But in my Denkmeier, the power-switch alone added 18mm of back focus, so right there, if you go with a standard 2" SCT adapter and a standard lenght 2" nose, even if you used a Baader type diagonal, you are well over 200mm, which is the point that many SCT models will start to loose aperture.

Here are the numbers....

The Baader SCT adapter requires 15mm of back focus.

The Baader Prism requires about 38mm of back focus.

the Power Switch requires about 18mm of back focus (unless they have made it thinner).

A large prism bino will require about 120mm of back focus (this is what the Mark v requries).

Add this up and you get 191mm. If someone wants to use a powerswitch and avoid aperture loss with a moving mirror scope even in straight though mode, this will be the best configuration to use.

A 2" diagonal alone will put you well over 200mm, even if it is the Baader 2" diagonal.




Thanks a lot, Eddgie! I might not have cared about the effective aperture loss at low power switch setting in my CPC-1100 if you hadn't started this some months ago. Seriously, I'm willing to trade this aperture reduction at low power for the wider field for certain DSO's like M35. In addition, Eddgie, you can get customized high power lenses for the Denks and Earthwins that are less powerful and more convenient perhaps for you. I'm curious to find out from the first users of this new system if the extra mm of clear aperture renders less vignetting with 24mm Panoptics in the reduced power x switch setting than presently with 26mm clear aperture binoviewers. Tim

Edited by teskridg (01/05/13 09:45 AM)


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Space Dragon
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: teskridg]
      #5606566 - 01/05/13 12:57 PM

I use the Earthwin PFS-B with Power/Filter switch [the model optimised for Newts] in a CPC 925. It was a great price.
In this configuration, the barlow acts as a reducer but not as reduced as the reducer itself.
I also have a 2x Barlow OCS which screws into the nosepiece.
There's about 7 turns of the focuser between each point.
I did consider changing out this glass from the powerswitch for one that would act as a barlow but I've found that I use the less reduced option a lot as the vignetting is hardly noticed and on the rare occasions I want to Barlow, screwing the OCS on only takes seconds.
I use the Baader T2 Diagonal with the 10mm SCT connection and a T2 - 2" adapter on the other side.[It's not ideal but the nosepiece on the Binos is not removable].
The vignetting is noticeable with 24mm Pans in full reducer mode, less so in half reducer and not in straight through or Barlow mode.
I did do the aperture flashlight test and did notice some loss with both reducers but not as much as I'd expected.


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faackanders2
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: teskridg]
      #5607284 - 01/05/13 08:57 PM

Quote:

Thanks a lot, Eddgie! I might not have cared about the effective aperture loss at low power switch setting in my CPC-1100 if you hadn't started this some months ago. Seriously, I'm willing to trade this aperture reduction at low power for the wider field for certain DSO's like M35. In addition, Eddgie, you can get customized high power lenses for the Denks and Earthwins that are less powerful and more convenient perhaps for you. I'm curious to find out from the first users of this new system if the extra mm of clear aperture renders less vignetting with 24mm Panoptics in the reduced power x switch setting than presently with 26mm clear aperture binoviewers. Tim




You can purchase the 45mm clear aperture 1.2x Multipurpose OCS seperately.


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Jeff B
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: teskridg]
      #5607928 - 01/06/13 09:12 AM

I wonder if the power switch inlet becomes the limiting diameter now.

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beatlejuice
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5625293 - 01/15/13 10:05 PM

Had an informative talk with Russ today and finally purchased my first binoviewer: The Binotron-27. Will probably be over a month before it arrives so now the anticipation and waiting begins.

Eric


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dajebriza
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: beatlejuice]
      #5625661 - 01/16/13 05:36 AM

I bought one too. I sold my Denk II supersystem with filter switch (hardly used it) for the price of the Binotron-27 supersystem sale, so it was break-even for me to upgrade. Looking forward to getting it!

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t.r.
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: dajebriza]
      #5626056 - 01/16/13 11:50 AM

This is quite an offer for those just getting in...I'll have to stick with my Denk II's though, nothing to gain.

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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: t.r.]
      #5627665 - 01/17/13 09:14 AM

I've got the Denk standards, and have been debating whether or not to upgrade to the Denk II or the Mark V. Now I'm considering the Binotron or the Mark V. Decisions, decisions........

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denis0007dl
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5627770 - 01/17/13 10:29 AM

Quote:

I've got the Denk standards, and have been debating whether or not to upgrade to the Denk II or the Mark V. Now I'm considering the Binotron or the Mark V. Decisions, decisions........




Binotron sounds really good, but he has 26mm Clear Aperture prisms, while Mark V has 28mm! I really like my MkV


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ckwastro
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5627861 - 01/17/13 11:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I've got the Denk standards, and have been debating whether or not to upgrade to the Denk II or the Mark V. Now I'm considering the Binotron or the Mark V. Decisions, decisions........




Binotron sounds really good, but he has 26mm Clear Aperture prisms, while Mark V has 28mm! I really like my MkV




Optically the Mark Vs are my front-runners. My concern is whether or not I will tire of constantly changing out the Glasspath Compensators. I know there can be some minor vignetting issues with the Power Switch, but the convenience of being able to change magnifications without switching configurations or getting up from the scope to change eyepieces is very nice.

My decision problem is that I'm very picky about optics, but I have limited time for observing these days, so convenience becomes more of an issue than I would prefer.


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crazyqban
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5628479 - 01/17/13 05:07 PM

Quote:

Optically the Mark Vs are my front-runners. My concern is whether or not I will tire of constantly changing out the Glasspath Compensators. I know there can be some minor vignetting issues with the Power Switch, but the convenience of being able to change magnifications without switching configurations or getting up from the scope to change eyepieces is very nice.




You can always use a Denk PowerSwitch with your Mark Vs. Here is how I did it...

FrankenBino

Eventually though, I was not totally happy with the Power Switch's low power setting so I got a Siebert 1.3X Multi Mag OCA and a few more bino pairs of eyepieces. I also tested the 1.7 Newtonian Glasspath Compensatoer but at 1.7X magnification, the less amount of wide view was not working for me. I now just change eyepieces and the 1.25x Glasspath Compensator stays in the Mark V's for the most part. The only time I remove the 1.25X Glasspath is when I need a little less magnification. At first I thought that it would be a pain in the rear end but it's not too bad once you get used to it.


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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: crazyqban]
      #5628797 - 01/17/13 08:10 PM

Thanks Sergio. These give me some more possible solutions, but I'm actually leaning towards your suggestion of just leaving in the 1.25x and adding EP pairs. Appreciate the link and ideas!

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beatlejuice
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5655526 - 02/01/13 03:11 AM

Here is the link to the B27-manual If you have the time to read it, any comments on the collimation procedure?

Eric


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teckpro
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Re: Denk Binotron rollout new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5798742 - 04/14/13 04:20 PM

I have the meade lx200 12" gps.
When using the denk binos with power switch system.


What will I see/ not see when my aperature is being
reduced??

Thanks.


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