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Equipment Discussions >> Binoviewers

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denis0007dl
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Reged: 04/17/12

Loc: Croatia
Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package
      #5602475 - 01/03/13 08:06 AM

It is shame for Baader that they sell expensive Mark V bino in poor carton box!





Even his cheap little brother Maxbright delivers in alu koffer, and also Cheap Chinesse TS bino have koffer



I have contact directly Baader for this stuff, and they never answer to me!

This is shame for Baader, and they can not invoked that in carton box bino is less expensive! Aniway, person who want to buy it, have money for it, and I am not care if bino will be lets say 10 euros more expensive!

Am I right guys!???


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tomcody
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5602479 - 01/03/13 08:10 AM

Baader advertises a bino viewer for sale, not a bino viewer and case.
There are lots of cases for sale by many venders you can choose from.


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denis0007dl
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: tomcody]
      #5602575 - 01/03/13 09:13 AM

Quote:

Baader advertises a bino viewer for sale, not a bino viewer and case.
There are lots of cases for sale by many venders you can choose from.




Yes, but it would be nice that you do not must to buy separately case for bino, case which is not original made for this bino!

I personally would like to have whole set at once!


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Stellarfire
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Reged: 07/10/11

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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5602590 - 01/03/13 09:26 AM

Baader does it right. We, the users of the Baader Mark V, have very different bino set-up scenarios in mind. I am sure most of us prefer to do our own cases for the bino accessories and eyepieces as individually selected. I did the same. Nothing wrong with Baader's decision to sell the Mark V without case.

Stephan


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tomcody
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5602657 - 01/03/13 10:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Baader advertises a bino viewer for sale, not a bino viewer and case.
There are lots of cases for sale by many venders you can choose from.




Yes, but it would be nice that you do not must to buy separately case for bino, case which is not original made for this bino!

I personally would like to have whole set at once!



And I personally am glad that I did not have to pay extra cost added to the Mark V's when I bought them for a case that I will never use. (Just like the case for my Maxbright's which sits empty in a closet as I store those binos with the diagonal and nose piece attached in a Televue case that holds both).
Rex


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Ed D
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Stellarfire]
      #5602666 - 01/03/13 10:13 AM

At least they should offer an accessory aluminum case should one want it. My binoviewer came in a very nice, foam fitted aluminum case. After getting tired of having to re-adjust the thing every time after flattening it to store it in the pretty case, I finally went to Home Depot and picked up a small tool box for $5 USD. I now remove it from the scope, insert the three caps and put it away in the tool box. Next time I use it it's still in adjustment. BTW, I store my eyepiece pairs and barlows with the BV in the same box - simple and neat!

Ed D


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Jim7728
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Ed D]
      #5602698 - 01/03/13 10:37 AM Attachment (40 downloads)

Agree with both sides. Baader could include a case, but they tend to be cheap in quality and have no room for accessories.

Furthermore, binoviewers are accessorie intensive, especially if you own more than one and is why I have a separate case for them.


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denis0007dl
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Jim7728]
      #5602711 - 01/03/13 10:45 AM

Aniway, Baader could include a case! Your decision will be after you purchase will you hold bino in original case or you will buy a new case!!!

I would like to have original case, and what I will do with that case, that is my choice!!!


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Eddgie
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5602730 - 01/03/13 10:55 AM

Yes, it is odd that the far less expensive Maxbright comes with a decent case.

Now I have my own Mark Vs in a big case with the eyepiece pairs, but the fact that I don't use the case doesn't mean I would not have appreciated having one.

The difference though I am sure is that these binos are made in Europe, and the case if made in Europe would have to have Mercedes Benz Quality to make them feel good about it, and that would make it cost them $50 to produce it.. But I don't think they would be able to sleep at night if they packed thier precious Mark V in a mass market quaity case.

So, that is the reason the don't include a case..

Shucks, you know I just made that up...


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johnnyha
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5602742 - 01/03/13 11:03 AM

Some of those other binoviewers come not only with a case but also eyepieces! Beautiful, wonderful eyepieces! But the expensive Mark Vs do NOT? What cheapskates!

Me, I threw away the case that came with my Denk IIs. I would rather pay $10 less and not get any case, as is the case with the MkV, in any case.

BTW Denis I am just kidding but do not miss the forest for the trees my friend - that is a BRAND NEW Mark V you are looking at there! You know what some people would give to have your problem?


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tomcody
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5602750 - 01/03/13 11:08 AM

+1 Eddie
For example, TEC offers a nice german made case for its scopes at about $500. Glad I don't have to pay those type of production costs to get a Mark V with case included.
Rex


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denis0007dl
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: tomcody]
      #5602862 - 01/03/13 12:03 PM

One more thing has been angry to me, my new MkV came with this issue, and I contact my dealer, ant they accept replacement, so I will get new one...maybie with new case





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Sgt
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5603146 - 01/03/13 02:41 PM

Now THAT I agree is worth grumbling about.

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Mike B
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Sgt]
      #5603170 - 01/03/13 02:57 PM

Or, we might say THAT is a case for grumbling?


FWIW, i agree with the OP. A fitted case, with some modest room for accessories, should at the very least be an option offered!

I have a Denk II system, from waay back, and while i no longer store the BVer in said case, it conveniently holds nearly ALL my bino EP-pairs, so comes out with the scope 97 times out of a hundred!

This comes under the same heading as a new-car dealer charging extra for floor-mats. One of the strangest aspects of retail sales i've ever heard. NOW we have another one to ponder.


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crazyqban
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Reged: 12/16/08

Loc: Miami, Florida
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Mike B]
      #5603607 - 01/03/13 07:51 PM

I never use the cases that things come in. All of my stuff, including my Mark Vs, are customized to some degree and the standard cases that are provided with gear never work for me. I keep my Mark Vs in a waterproof SKB case with custom cut foam inserts that fit all of my eyepieces and filters.

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mikey cee
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: crazyqban]
      #5603676 - 01/03/13 08:47 PM

Oh for cryin' out loud get some appliance epoxy white and a cardboard match stick and touch it up. God I wish I had problems like those to deal with. Mike

Edited by mikey cee (01/05/13 10:54 PM)


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Scott99
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: mikey cee]
      #5603767 - 01/03/13 09:57 PM

Everyone likes to build their own ultimate bino-case! I did use the foam cutouts from Baader in my homemade Tenba US-made bino-max case.

that stinks about the paint chips. It's small but then again, new is new. I don't like getting gear that looks used when I've paid for new either.

If I was going to fix it myself I might be tempted to ask them for a $100 credit or something in return.


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Grandpa Jim
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: mikey cee]
      #5603966 - 01/04/13 12:58 AM

Quote:

Oh for cryin' out load get some appliance epoxy white and a cardboard match stick and touch it up. God I wish I had problems like those to deal with. Mike




+1


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AlbertoJ
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Reged: 02/20/08

Loc: Madrid (España)
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Grandpa Jim]
      #5604144 - 01/04/13 06:43 AM

Baader could give a quality box as accesory, perhaps about 100 .
Thats correct, but you should avoid the word SHAME for something that Baader clearly advertises.


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panhard
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Reged: 01/20/08

Loc: Markham Ontario Canada
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: AlbertoJ]
      #5604264 - 01/04/13 08:47 AM

Ok gentlemen lets play nice ok.

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Doug Culbertson
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: panhard]
      #5604405 - 01/04/13 09:45 AM

IMO, the lack of a case is no big deal. It is not advertised as coming with one, so you know what you are getting when you pay your money.

In spite of two previous posters making light of it, I would be highly PO'd if I had laid down $1800 of my hard earned money and then received this binoviewer with a ding in the paint. I buy most of my gear used, so I expect the occasional scratch, ding, etc. On the rare occasion that I do buy new I expect the item to arrive looking pristine.


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Stellarfire
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Doug Culbertson]
      #5604457 - 01/04/13 10:19 AM

Quote:

I would be highly PO'd if I had laid down $1800 of my hard earned money and then received this binoviewer with a ding in the paint.





Two dings. I can only hardly imagine Baader shipped a new Mark V bino that way, and the thick and soft foam insert of the original box is protecting the paint very well. Something is stinking.

Stephan


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tomcody
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: panhard]
      #5604551 - 01/04/13 11:04 AM

Regarding the paint chips, yes they are small and probably easy to touch up, but if this was a new set of Mark V's, then one should expect a perfect finish on them considering the high cost, and more important, how did the chips get there? were the MarkV"s dropped at the factory or dealer? and if so, are they still in alignment? all good questions and issues for the OP to pursue with his dealer.
Rex


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Jim7728
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5604553 - 01/04/13 11:05 AM

Quote:

Aniway, Baader could include a case! Your decision will be after you purchase will you hold bino in original case or you will buy a new case!!!

I would like to have original case, and what I will do with that case, that is my choice!!!




Irrelevant, the Mark V does not come with a case. You have no choice.

Sorry about the chips, shame on the vendor if it was a mis-represented open box or used purchase.


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mark8888
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Reged: 09/24/10

Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Jim7728]
      #5604795 - 01/04/13 01:24 PM

I bought a Mark V from a vendor with a nearly identical paint chip. However, I was told in advance that it had a chip... I chose to buy it so I could use it immediately rather than wait weeks or months for a new shipment to arrive. No regrets. I have also noticed pictures of other Mark V's with little chips. I think it may be somewhat common for whatever reason. To me, it's not a big deal at all and I could care less that my binos have a little chip, but that said I'm glad I was told in advance about it.

As for the case... it's funny, recently I've been looking for "the case", assuming that one came with the binoviewers, but clearly I never got one! I agree that including a case would be a good thing, though "shame" is a big word and I wouldn't use it to describe this. Very very happy with the binos.


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Paul G
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Doug Culbertson]
      #5605092 - 01/04/13 04:02 PM

Quote:

IMO, the lack of a case is no big deal. It is not advertised as coming with one, so you know what you are getting when you pay your money.

In spite of two previous posters making light of it, I would be highly PO'd if I had laid down $1800 of my hard earned money and then received this binoviewer with a ding in the paint. I buy most of my gear used, so I expect the occasional scratch, ding, etc. On the rare occasion that I do buy new I expect the item to arrive looking pristine.




+1

I would expect the same, would not accept less.


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pftarch
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Paul G]
      #5605148 - 01/04/13 04:25 PM

When I reviewed my Earthwin purchase I commented that the case was kind of cheesy, BUT, that I was ok with that because I would rather have them put there effort into the powerswitch rather than the case. (I don't really use the case now either.)

And yes, at $1800, I would be upset about dings on a new purchase.


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BadClams
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Stellarfire]
      #5605198 - 01/04/13 04:52 PM

and maybe what caused the paint chips was enough to cause some internal alignment issues???

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rfr66
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Stellarfire]
      #5605380 - 01/04/13 06:56 PM

I had similar paint chips on a MK V that I purchased from AP last year. After giving a little resistance that they carefully inspect all of their units for chips before shipping, they promptly exchanged it for another new one.

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mikey cee
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: rfr66]
      #5605582 - 01/04/13 09:07 PM

Oh God how I wish they would sell their cosmetic blems at half price. Mike

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Doug D.
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: mikey cee]
      #5606245 - 01/05/13 10:18 AM Attachment (34 downloads)

A small cheap case for a binoviewer is just one more thing to lug out to the field, possibly forget/lose/drop resulting in one more thing between me and getting set-up and viewing in the shortest possible time. My MkV's live in my dark sky eyepiece case with well, my eyepieces.... and my Maxbrights are dedicated to solar with one scope, a couple of dedicated pairs of EPs and a single compensator. The latter all goes into one Pelikan case that is a heck of a lot more durable and useful than the one that came with the BVs. Carboard box and foam were enough to get my Mk Vs to me safe and sound - and my Maxbright "case" was opened once to retrieve the BVs and other bits and now lives in a storage cabinet with my MK V cardboad box and foam should I ever end up selling on Amart to someone expecting a box/case.

I wouldn't call the lack of a MkV "case" a shame, just one less near-useless thing to end up in a landfill some day.


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MrGrytt
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Reged: 07/28/05

Loc: Upstate New York
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: rfr66]
      #5606877 - 01/05/13 04:00 PM Attachment (27 downloads)

Quote:

I had similar paint chips on a MK V that I purchased from AP last year. After giving a little resistance that they carefully inspect all of their units for chips before shipping, they promptly exchanged it for another new one.




A few years ago I decided to buy a second Mark V from Astro-Physics. At that time they only had one pair in stock and told me that there were some small paint chips on it. I opted to wait for their next shipment and get one with no paint issues. They were very up-front about it and told me right away about the chips. Something may slip by from time to time but I do believe they check everything out prior to selling and shipping.

As far as a case is concerned I think something as good and expensive as the Mark V deserves a good one. I use the Pelican 1200 case and it works very well. It can hold all three correctors, a extra nosepiece for straight through viewing and a thin adapter for a little extra backfocus if needed.

Harvey


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Grandpa Jim
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: tomcody]
      #5607423 - 01/05/13 10:34 PM

Quote:

Regarding the paint chips, yes they are small and probably easy to touch up, but if this was a new set of Mark V's, then one should expect a perfect finish on them considering the high cost, and more important, how did the chips get there? were the MarkV"s dropped at the factory or dealer? and if so, are they still in alignment? all good questions and issues for the OP to pursue with his dealer.
Rex




I just find it a shame that we have become a nation of complainers, even over small meaningless things. Yes....it is too bad that they came through production with tiny paint chips, but if they are not intrinsically damaged, why go to the trouble (and expense) of returning them to a manufacturer when they can be "touched up" for next to nothing?? If they have more extensive damage, YES, by all means return them. But, for the chips only......why bother??
Besides, I would be willing to bet that the manufacturer *might* "touch up" the pair you returned and send them right back to you...........


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Aquarist
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Reged: 08/27/12

Loc: Illinois
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Grandpa Jim]
      #5607814 - 01/06/13 06:20 AM

Hmmm. My MARKV came with no case. Hmmm, my Takahashi TOA150 came with no case either. On the other hand I did not have to pay for cases for those instruments that I will never use. There is no free lunch; if a case is supplied, you are going to pay for it. If you are not going to use it, you just wasted a bunch of money. If you want a case, buy one, then at least you get exactly what you want.

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StarStuff1
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Aquarist]
      #5607828 - 01/06/13 07:01 AM

OR, make your own case. 1/4-in, 3/8-in or 1/2-in plywood and foam is not that expensive and can make a great protective case. The hinges and other hardware and be a little costly. Be sure to save those parts if you are about to throw away a used case that was originally purposed for something else.

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tomcody
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Grandpa Jim]
      #5610266 - 01/07/13 01:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Regarding the paint chips, yes they are small and probably easy to touch up, but if this was a new set of Mark V's, then one should expect a perfect finish on them considering the high cost, and more important, how did the chips get there? were the MarkV"s dropped at the factory or dealer? and if so, are they still in alignment? all good questions and issues for the OP to pursue with his dealer.
Rex




I just find it a shame that we have become a nation of complainers, even over small meaningless things. Yes....it is too bad that they came through production with tiny paint chips, but if they are not intrinsically damaged, why go to the trouble (and expense) of returning them to a manufacturer when they can be "touched up" for next to nothing?? If they have more extensive damage, YES, by all means return them. But, for the chips only......why bother??
Besides, I would be willing to bet that the manufacturer *might* "touch up" the pair you returned and send them right back to you...........



Since you chose to quote me and I assume to call me a complainer, I am going to reply to you, Grandpa!
First reason to be concerned, the Mark V's cost over $1300, and for that price should not come damaged (if purchased new) . If you purchased a new car and it came out from final servicing with a foot long scratch in the fender down to the metal ( a fair analogy, given the size difference), I bet you would complain and to the dealer and not just except it that way! Why? it reduces the value of your purchase and that is not what you paid for.
Second, sure the chips may be able to be touched up? but with what? how much money would you spend on different paints and painting sample patches to try and match the finish on the Bino's? Or would you call the vender or manufacturer and ask about a touch up paint? and when they asked why you needed it for a new purchase, and why you did not just return them as damaged? what would you say?
Third, the issue of how the paint was chipped, I owned two sets of Mark V's and I can say the paint on them is very tough and durable, It would take a lot to damage it, perhaps a drop from a height onto a hard rough surface and what of the alignment? after that event? who is going to check out that?
Again, all good questions for the OP and the dealer to discuss.
Rex


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Stellarfire
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Reged: 07/10/11

Loc: Switzerland
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: tomcody]
      #5610317 - 01/07/13 02:20 PM

I agree with Rex. No one should accept a chipped Baader Mark V bino sold as new condition and payed accordingly. I did a lot of business with Baader and I appreciate their honest and reliable business style. Baader inspects their goods carefully before shipping and shipping chipped Mark V's is simply not the style of Baader.

Stephan


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panhard
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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Stellarfire]
      #5610342 - 01/07/13 02:36 PM

Ok guys don't make me lock this thread. Lets play nice. Be respectful to each other.

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Grandpa Jim
old fogey
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Reged: 08/04/12

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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: tomcody]
      #5610393 - 01/07/13 02:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Regarding the paint chips, yes they are small and probably easy to touch up, but if this was a new set of Mark V's, then one should expect a perfect finish on them considering the high cost, and more important, how did the chips get there? were the MarkV"s dropped at the factory or dealer? and if so, are they still in alignment? all good questions and issues for the OP to pursue with his dealer.
Rex




I just find it a shame that we have become a nation of complainers, even over small meaningless things. Yes....it is too bad that they came through production with tiny paint chips, but if they are not intrinsically damaged, why go to the trouble (and expense) of returning them to a manufacturer when they can be "touched up" for next to nothing?? If they have more extensive damage, YES, by all means return them. But, for the chips only......why bother??
Besides, I would be willing to bet that the manufacturer *might* "touch up" the pair you returned and send them right back to you...........



Since you chose to quote me and I assume to call me a complainer, I am going to reply to you, Grandpa!
First reason to be concerned, the Mark V's cost over $1300, and for that price should not come damaged (if purchased new) . If you purchased a new car and it came out from final servicing with a foot long scratch in the fender down to the metal ( a fair analogy, given the size difference), I bet you would complain and to the dealer and not just except it that way! Why? it reduces the value of your purchase and that is not what you paid for.
Second, sure the chips may be able to be touched up? but with what? how much money would you spend on different paints and painting sample patches to try and match the finish on the Bino's? Or would you call the vender or manufacturer and ask about a touch up paint? and when they asked why you needed it for a new purchase, and why you did not just return them as damaged? what would you say?
Third, the issue of how the paint was chipped, I owned two sets of Mark V's and I can say the paint on them is very tough and durable, It would take a lot to damage it, perhaps a drop from a height onto a hard rough surface and what of the alignment? after that event? who is going to check out that?
Again, all good questions for the OP and the dealer to discuss.
Rex




No!......it was not my intent to call "you" a complainer - sorry it came off that way.
In my mind, it just made more sense to touch up the paint, (and I think I was clear.......*if* that was the only issue).
Just did not make sense to me to spend the probably close to $50 or more to return it to the manufacturer by insured shipping (which would NO way be cheap w/ a $1300 item) when the materials to touch up those tiny chips would be less than $10? How hard would it be to match "white"??
On some level, I agree that it would aggravate me to receive something like that from a high end manufacturer, but beings I'm a bit cheap & broke, my approach would be to use it "as is" if it wasn't damaged otherwise, touch it up when I could, and be damn careful about buying anything else from that vendor again. Just sayin'...........

It was not my intention to make anyone mad, I apologize if I did. I HATE trying to communicate on the internet.


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tomcody
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Reged: 07/06/08

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Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Grandpa Jim]
      #5610547 - 01/07/13 04:37 PM

Jim,
Thank you for the nice reply, and no offense taken. I see your point, ( I have tried that approach, making repairs myself, instead of sending the item back and some times it works for me, other times, not so much! and I wish I had just returned the item and let the vender deal with it. Both viewpoints are valid and I respect yours.
Rex


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panhard
It's All Good
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Reged: 01/20/08

Loc: Markham Ontario Canada
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: tomcody]
      #5610574 - 01/07/13 04:53 PM

Thanks guys. I do appreciate it.

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Geo557Moderator
Astro-Scout
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Reged: 10/10/07

Loc: SE GA
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: panhard]
      #5612878 - 01/08/13 11:01 PM

Indeed

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SteveTheSwede
member


Reged: 09/28/09

Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Geo557]
      #5618569 - 01/12/13 08:08 AM

I think the only problem is that many people think of included stuff as "free", which of course it isn't. So, somebody is paying for the "free" and "included" stuff, now guess who that is.

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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
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Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: SteveTheSwede]
      #5621631 - 01/13/13 08:41 PM Attachment (40 downloads)

Both my Baaders over time (the ?mark 4?) and the Mark V came with little chips in their paint. Still nothing I've seen has touched their even light throughput, even color balance per eye, and extremely low - almost absent - scatter on bright subjects.

You pay for what you get, evidently they mean the optics and not the paint... this image is getting a little old but I have no intention to repeat the experiment I'm settled on the Baader Mark V.

Light/dark curves are left eye / right eye.
Three peaks are R,G,B




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ohioalfa64
sage


Reged: 08/16/12

Loc: Ohio (NW)
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5653113 - 01/30/13 07:53 PM

Anyone have views on whether a Mk V or a Denk Binotron 27 is better for a 6" Mak? If a Baader Prism 2" diagonal is so much superior over the mirror, why does Baader force the purchase of the dielectric mirror in the Mk V package? No comment on flaked paint. Things get damaged in shipping.

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johnnyha
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: ohioalfa64]
      #5653364 - 01/30/13 10:41 PM

I had thought the reason Baader sells the 1.25" dielectric T2 mirror with the MkV now is they quite literally ran out of the 1.25" prisms? I didn't think it was simply to cut costs or some other nefarious reason. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong?

BTW Baader/Astro-Physics sells the Mark V Binoviewer with a 1.25" diagonal, it includes a 2" nosepiece to give maximum clear aperture in fast scopes.

PS - altho I have become a fan of the Baader T2 system, if I were buying new today might very well go with the new Binotron-27, I've owned Denk IIs before and they are excellent. I'm excited to hear reviews of the new Denk and I have almost ordered it several times.


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RodgerHouTex
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Reged: 06/02/09

Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
Re: Baader SHAME - Mark V bino package new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5653682 - 01/31/13 06:39 AM

Exactly what are the graphs supposed to be showing?

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