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Equipment Discussions >> Binoviewers

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vkhastro1
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Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ?
      #5836240 - 05/02/13 12:59 PM

Has anyone done a direct "shootout" between the Baader Mark V and the Denkmeier Binotron? Which is the preferred option based on ergonomics,
optical quality, smallest back focus (especially for SCT),etc ? I presently use the Baader Maxbrights and Baader Zeiss T2 prism setup for the minimal back focus in the SCT mode. I also have the Denkmeier II supersystem binoviewer with powerswitch/filter slider setup for use with refractor, reflector and SCT.


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denis0007dl
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: vkhastro1]
      #5836314 - 05/02/13 01:29 PM

johnnyha have them both, so we expect soon shootout

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johnnyha
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: denis0007dl]
      #5836488 - 05/02/13 02:36 PM

Well the Mark V clearly requires the least amount of backfocus. I have not had a chance to compare them head to head due to weather, but they are both excellent. The Mk Vs are of course known for their quality but I have been extremely happy with the B27's optical quality after just two outings. I also prefer the B27's ergonomically due to their easily adjusted diopters, I can incrementally shift the focus on either eyepiece "on the fly" while viewing with both eyes. This feature alone is so fantastic that it makes it difficult for me to even reach for the MkV's again. I also love the collimation feature of the B27's and their lighter weight.

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Ryuno
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #6063366 - 09/04/13 08:48 PM

Hello Johnny
Are their any updates about your comparison of the binoviewers?
I am shopping for one and deciding between a Denkmeier, a Baader and a Vernonscope.

The Vernonscope is the cheapest of the three. Do you happen to know this bino or know someone who knows it?

Best regards from Tokyo
Heinz


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REC
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Ryuno]
      #6063970 - 09/05/13 09:09 AM

Where id Eddgie??

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Eddgie
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: REC]
      #6064011 - 09/05/13 09:31 AM

I have used both.

They are very different units with very different strengths.

Optically though, I find little difference. Both are optically superb.

The differences are basically mechanical differences. The Binotron without the powerswitch is lighter, but with the powerswitch is heavier.

The Binotron has excellent diopter function. Easier to access than the very thin ring on the Mark V, but the very low profile of the Mark V allows for a much shorter light path.

The diopter ring adjustment ring on the Binotron is recessed and I found it a little harder to get at even without gloves on. It is much easier to change eyepeices on the Mark V, but if you have the Supersystem you most likey do far less eyepiece changing, yes? So, one is easier to change eyepeices, the other greatly reduces eyepeice changes.

The Mark V is king of the hill for clear apeture. Even 28mm feild stop eyepeices are bright and crisp right to the edge.

The Mark V has a really excellent collimatino adjustment, but the Mark V I have has perfect collimation.. This could be a neutral, but for someone that has had trouble with merging, the Binotron would fix that problem.

And of course the Binotron can have a powerswitch.

A la carte, I personally still prefer the Mark V, but the powerswitch is an important factor, and I can easily seeing that beeing the over-riding factor in many purchases.

Optically though, I find the performance to be pretty much identical.

I want a Binotron, but at the same time, I don't see myself selling the Mark V. I actually prefer it for my EdgeHD 8". Due to apeture loss caused by the long light path, I found the Binotron not well suited to that scope, and in the Newt, I don't see a huge advantage to the Binotron other than the powerswitch.

Both are first class binoviewers, so it is more the mechanical features, powerswitch, and clear apeture that seprate them.


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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6064189 - 09/05/13 10:58 AM

Ed, just a quick question on my Denk2 PS...can the power switch be removed easily if I just want to use the BV alone and save some weight and light path? Does it just unscrew...seems to be on there pretty tight?

Thanks,

Bob


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Levine
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6064219 - 09/05/13 11:16 AM

Eddgie, Thomas, and others:

Consider the following:

-Cost is off the table as a determining factor
-Flexibility, reliability, ease of use, and service after the sale are the primary concerns
-You are restricted to only ONE binoviewer:

Would you choose the Mark V or the Binotron?

...Or would you consider a 2" system (Siebert)?

...Or none of the above?!

Why?



Edited by Levine (09/05/13 12:10 PM)


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TGModerator
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Levine]
      #6064308 - 09/05/13 12:08 PM

I have no experience of the Binotron but here's what I love about the Mark V:

- Optically perfect. Star testing my AP178 with the binoviewer, I find no difference from star testing it without. Shine a laser into the "nose" of the Mark V and two identical beams come out the eyepiece ends. Project them on a far wall and you can see how well it's collimated. It's no surprise that this is the only BV that AP recommends and sells.

- Perfect color balance. BVs typically have different hues for the two sides. The Mark V is perfectly balanced. It's easy to verify: put a white paper over your scope and illuminate evenly and take images from either eyepiece and compare the histograms; they come out identical.

- Solid Zeiss quality, Zeiss coatings. What more is there to say.

- Click-lock. Love this feature.

- 28mm clear aperture.

Here's what I don't like about it:

- Attaching to the diagonal can be fraught with peril as the many tales of Mark V's hitting concrete in this group attest.

- Sucks up a good deal of back-focus. I had to shorten the tube on my AP. With a mirror diagonal, I had observable spherical aberration in my C11HD till I went with the Maxbright prism diagonal.

- OCAs are all telenegative amplifiers. There is no zero power OCA available like the one from Siebert.

- Price. You could buy a 4" TV refractor on Amart for its price. But in the end I think the quality is worth the price, and it keeps it value very well.

- Minor nit: the opening/closing action to adjust the pupillary distance is fairly stiff. While it may be a feature, I much preferred the smooth action on Siebert's Black Knight BVs, the only other ones I've owned.

Sorry, I don't have a direct comparison with Binotron but I hope the above helps.

Tanveer.


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Levine
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: TG]
      #6064442 - 09/05/13 01:21 PM

Tanveer,

Thanks for this!

"Crashing Bino Syndrome" as it pertains to the Mark V, may be traced back to some not fully tightening the setscrew on the Quick Release adapter. The screw would then loosen further, fall out, and provoke tears.

This from Edggie, on another thread in this Forum. I have no personal experience with the Mark V.


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Eddgie
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: REC]
      #6064511 - 09/05/13 01:55 PM

Yes, the power switch can be removed. It unscrews from the bino body. The nose can then be threaded directly into the bino body.

This cuts about 19mm or so from the light path.

There is a very thin ring at the top of the threaded part of the powerswitch that screws into the base of the BV. You will see this ring when you separate them.

This ring may move when you remove the powerswitch.

The symptom will be that when you re-install the powerswitch, it may not line up perfectly with the body of the bino. The little thin ring is a stop that allows you to adjust the final stopping place of the powerswitch so you can restore the correct alignment. If the power switch rotates to far or not far enough on re-install, you can remove the power switch and raise or lower this little ring as necessary to get the rotation of the switch perfect.

It most likely will not move when you remove the powerswitch, but if it does, it is very simple to get it back into proper position.

Anyway, it should unscrew. I would not get crazy with the force, but it may take some amount of pressure to get it off the first time.


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DaveJ
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Levine]
      #6064514 - 09/05/13 01:57 PM

Quote:

"Crashing Bino Syndrome" as it pertains to the Mark V, may be traced back to some not fully tightening the setscrew on the Quick Release adapter. The screw would then loosen further, fall out, and provoke tears.




There's no maybe about it, that's the only thing it could possibly be. Keeping the large easy-to-see, easy-to-grab screw tightened with a gentle twist is all that's required. I've never come close to dropping my Mark Vs. Someone mentioned it being too short. I lengthened mine with an inch of hard rubber fuel hose purchased for a few cents from an auto parts store.


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Levine
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: DaveJ]
      #6064588 - 09/05/13 02:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"Crashing Bino Syndrome" as it pertains to the Mark V, may be traced back to some not fully tightening the setscrew on the Quick Release adapter. The screw would then loosen further, fall out, and provoke tears.




There's no maybe about it, that's the only thing it could possibly be. Keeping the large easy-to-see, easy-to-grab screw tightened with a gentle twist is all that's required. I've never come close to dropping my Mark Vs. Someone mentioned it being too short. I lengthened mine with an inch of hard rubber fuel hose purchased for a few cents from an auto parts store.






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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6064602 - 09/05/13 02:42 PM

Thanks Ed, do you think the 19mm saved would be worth removing the PS....maybe a little brighter.

I would like to do a final comparison between the WO I have and the Denk. Probably going to sell the WO.

Another thought is that my WO will work on my ED80 but not the Denk the way I have it now setup and would have to buy more "stuff".

Do you think using a BV in the 80ED is a good idea in the first place? I have to attach the 1.6x barlow in front of the diagonal to get it to focus.


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Eddgie
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: REC]
      #6064841 - 09/05/13 05:06 PM Attachment (33 downloads)

Well, I think that it will be a much fairer test to compare the Denk to the WO with a bit more similar light path.

As for binoviewing the 80ED, I mean you can, but I don't know what the point would be. You are turning your wonderful wide field scope into a fairly narrow AFOV 70mm telescope (just figuring the dimming factor).

But that is me. I do use the Mark V on my C5, but this even seems dim to me.

I have thought about selling the C5 and replacing it with a C6, but it never seems to end, so for now, I am just hanging tight.

I did buy a cheap ($59) Celestron 4" Achromat and I am using it with binoviewers, though I had to cut the tube to do that. For $59, it was worth it....

But an 80mm scope is pretty small. I guess it just depends on you.


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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6065008 - 09/05/13 06:41 PM

Good point on using the BV in the 80mm.

I bought that $59.00 close out as well....hella of a deal I could not pass up! I stuck it on my EQ2 that i have..looks like you have one like it as well. Pretty nice scope and I will compare it to my ETX-125 on Saturn tonight.

Clear Skies:)


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DaveJ
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: REC]
      #6065031 - 09/05/13 07:07 PM

Quote:

Good point on using the BV in the 80mm...




I use binoviewers in my wife's 80mm triplet APO all the time and much prefer the view to mono-eyepiece mode. There's something magical about binoviewers regardless of aperture of the telescope. I've binoviewed through scopes from 80mm to 16" in aperture and have a hard time going back to mono now in any of them.


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Eddgie
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: REC]
      #6065066 - 09/05/13 07:33 PM

The Celestron did not reach focus with BVs. I had to cut 1.25" from the end of the tube.

Now it reaches focus with the Mark V/T2 Prism.

It actually works really well. I get about a 1.5 degree true field with 24mm ES68s, and about 1.55 degrees with the 35mm Ultimas. The Ultimas work great for faint targets but for general sweeping, I prefer the 24 ES expansive 68 degree field.

Still, the view seems dim to me. If my sky conditions were darker, I think I could get more into it, but from my city location, a 4" refractor just isn't much telescopes.


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johnnyha
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Ryuno]
      #6065528 - 09/06/13 02:38 AM

Quote:

Hello Johnny
Are their any updates about your comparison of the binoviewers?



I haven't had a chance to use them lately so no real updates. I think Eddgie has covered the differences pretty well. I definitely prefer the B27 ergonomics altho I see essentially no difference optically. And I have nothing but good things to say about Russ's customer service at Denkmeier. As I have reported here before, turnaround for Denk repair was one week and for MkV it took 9 months so that is a pretty major difference and a very real consideration.


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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Levine]
      #6065793 - 09/06/13 09:50 AM

Quote:

-Cost is off the table as a determining factor
-Flexibility, reliability, ease of use, and service after the sale are the primary concerns


Would you choose the Mark V or the Binotron?

...Or would you consider a 2" system (Siebert)?




Last one first.

I would not consider a 2" system. The back focus requirements are so onerous that I think you would find them to be impractical in most scopes.

The light path through this system is I believe over 150mm. By the time you add a 2" diagonal for an SCT, and a visual back, you are looking at a back focus of over 300mm. No SCT made will be better than barely within diffraction limit with this much back focus (spherical aberration will be near 1/4th wave).

No Newtonian or no refractor is going to reach focus without at least a 2x barlow and maybe more. This means that while you can use 2" eyepeices, you may still get a wider true field using 1.25" eyepecies in either the Denk or the Mark V. The big barlow requirement imposed by the big light path length does more to offset the big prism than the big prism buys you by allowing the use of a big eyepiece. Lets not even get into the weight issue.

And before I answer further, let me be clear that off axis performance is extremely important to me. This means that I want a field that is completely free of vignetting, and that is not loosing off axis rays from the light cone so that the illumination is falling off (these are two different things). I value these things perhaps far more than most people.

With that said, if you made me pick, I would pick the Mark V.

The details of the answer would bore the life out of any reader out there, but in the end, I believe that for my particular mix of scopes, the Mark Vs would give me the best overall result.

If the only scope I had was a medium focal ratio Newt or Dob, the answer might be different.

But I have a variety of scopes, and I get the best balance of function in all of the scopes with the Mark V.

That is me though, and you asked me for my own answer. I am sure that others will differ.

One use of any powerswitching system made in the EdgeHD 8" though would tell you immediately that it is not a good match. You cannot use this kind of system in this particular scope without serious performance compromises.

If the only scope I was going to use was the 12" f/4.9 dob, It would be a more difficult decision.

The 24mm ES 68s don't give quite the same low power, but the much larger field stop than the D21s makes the true field surprisingly close.

The 1.7 GPC is a true coma correcting design and even inexpensive eyepeices like 24mm Hyperion seem to give very sharp off axis performance.

My biggest concern about the powerswitching systems though is that in the low power arm, the field illumination is very uneven, being much brighter at the center and falling off evenly from there. The illumination of the Mark V with 1.7x GPC seems much more even to me though to be fair, this is over a slightly narrower true field (though if you do the math, you realize that the field is not that much smaller).

On the other hand, using a powerswtich type system, many observers could go all night without having to change eyepecies, and there is a lot to be said for that.

So, if cost is no object, I would say to own them both.

But if you really made me have to choose, then with my own mix of scopes and my own preference for a fully unvignetted and well illuminated field, it would be the Mark Vs. The EdgeHD was completely unsatisfying to use with the Binotron, even with a T2 Prism diagonal. In low power, I might as well have been using a C6 with a Maxbright/T2 prism. In the EdgeHD, the Mark V with a pair of 35mm Ultimas gave a far better result than the low power arm of the powerswtich did. There is simply far to much aperture loss when you use any kind of reducer system with the EdgeHD 8" and back focus over about 110mm.

I think that one of the other forum members (REC) may also be seeing aggressive aperture reduction in another SCT (f/8 I think).

Anyway, my own requiremts for no vignetting and an even field illumination would make me choose the Mark V.

I like the Binotrons and intend to buy a pair, but they just are not a good choice for my other scopes. In the Newt though, I think that even with the field illumination dropoff, I will still use them.

But the question was absolute, and my answer is absolute as well. If you made me pick one of the other, it would be the Mark V.


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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6065830 - 09/06/13 10:21 AM

Ed, yes my scope I'm using the Denks in is a 8" SCT f/10. But, just wondering about your issue withe the Edge HD. My scope is an ACF model which is different from a traditional SCT and has a flat field and no coma at the edge.

Does the use of a different secondary in an ACF have any effect in when using the BV?

Bob


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Eddgie
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: REC]
      #6065944 - 09/06/13 11:21 AM

The issue with the EdgeHD 8" is severe aperture loss.

Even the Mark Vs only work at about 7.8" of aperture, and this is with the 10mm SCT to T2 connector (10mm of light path) T2 Prism (38mm of light path) and Mark V (123mm of light path). This is a total light path of about 171mm, and even with this short a path, I am loosing .2" of aperture.

The Binotron has about 127mm of light path with the diopters fully racked in, and if I mate it to the T2 Prism, I add about another 8mm to that for the Quick Connector. The Powerswitch adds 19mm, and we still have 38mm for the diagonal and 10mm for the connector. Total light path is 202mm. That reduces the EdgeHD 8" from 8" of aperture to less than 7.5" of aperture, and that is only in the "both arms out" position.

If you kick in the reducer, the aperture falls to less than 7". The field is wider, sure, but at the expense of a lot of brightness loss.

Remember, as the aperture gets smaller, the secondary shading as a percentage of aperture gets larger.

For a 7" aperture, you only have 38 inch of light collection and you loose 5 square inches because of the obstruction, so now you are at 33 square inches.

By the time you factor in transmission loss, you are looking at a pretty dim image.

Also, in arms out mode with the Binotron, not only is the aperture less than 7.5", but the system the focal length of the scope is 90mm longer than with the Mark V.

If you start with 2300mm of focal length (which is about what you have with the Binotron in the EdgeHD) and you take .63 of that, you are working at 1449mm. This mean D21s give you 68x.

If you use the Mark V with 35mm Ultimas, you get about 63x, and the bigger field stop of the Ultimas means that the field is wider than with the D21s. You are using a bigger field stop at a lower magnifications. The Apparent field is of course bigger in the D21s, but the true field and exit pupil is bigger in the 35s, which helps offset some of the binoviewer imposed dimming.

And you could use 35mms in the Denks, but they vignette notcibly in the low power arm, and as I mentioned previously, I do not like to see any vignetting. In the EdgeHD, the 35mm Ultimas are bright and sharpt to the edge. The same eyepecies in the Denks vignette.

And remember, this is comparing a 7.8" aperture to a 6.9" aperture. Which one do you think gives a brighter image..

I did not like the Binotron in the EdgeHD 8". It is not a good match for the scope.

Even with the Mark V, I am not working at full aperture, but it is close enough to make it difficult to see the difference in brightness.

And remember, I am using the shortest possible light path possible for the Binotron. There is no way to get it as short as the Mark V even If you remove the power switch arm, and if you do, you still have the smaller prisms in the Denks so the outside of the field is not as well illuminated as with the Binotrons using 24mm Hyhperions or 35mm Ultimas.

Again, this is me. I am very sensitive to field illumination..

What works for others is much different than what works for me, and I did not like the result in the EdgeHD 8".


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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6066101 - 09/06/13 01:04 PM

The little screw on the Baader is somewhat annoying but I've never been close to dropping it either, even with frozen fingers.

I enjoyed using a friends 2-inch BV but I wouldn't want one. I don't really like the way BV"s dim the view of DSO's, so I don't do much low power, wide-field binoviewing. Mostly I use it for planetary, or a quick look around at low power with 25mm Plossl eyepieces.

For higher power the 2 inch system is overkill. I spent the money getting better transmission and clarity with the Mark V.


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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6066607 - 09/06/13 05:55 PM

Eddgie, thats a very informative reply, I have been thinking very hard about the binotron. And the points you raised mirror what I fear.

I love my mrk5s perfect fov in 24pans. Denki, I dislike the way in lower power arm you get vignetting plus you can see uneven brightness around one edge of the fov... caused by the power switch lens getting in the way! Really annoying.

Also I remember when I used precise parts custom part to mate the mrk5 with the PXS, I noticed the optics of the pxs added false colour and was not good over x150mag. I found that a pair of baader zooms gave the same effect as the pxs with more graduations and better optics. Only negative of the zooms is the narrow fov at low mag setting.

The problem with astro gear is that you rarely can have your cake and eat it, theres always compromises.

Edited by Pingster (09/06/13 06:16 PM)


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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: DaveJ]
      #6067648 - 09/07/13 11:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

"Crashing Bino Syndrome" as it pertains to the Mark V, may be traced back to some not fully tightening the setscrew on the Quick Release adapter. The screw would then loosen further, fall out, and provoke tears.




There's no maybe about it, that's the only thing it could possibly be. Keeping the large easy-to-see, easy-to-grab screw tightened with a gentle twist is all that's required. I've never come close to dropping my Mark Vs. Someone mentioned it being too short. I lengthened mine with an inch of hard rubber fuel hose purchased for a few cents from an auto parts store.




Same here, have used the MkV extensively and never had a problem, but I always double check set screws or clamps on my setup.


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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Pingster]
      #6067707 - 09/07/13 12:09 PM

Quote:

I love my mrk5s perfect fov in 24pans. Denki, I dislike the way in lower power arm you get vignetting plus you can see uneven brightness around one edge of the fov... caused by the power switch lens getting in the way! Really annoying




This is why when I talk about the Binotron or Denks, I always reference the D21s. These eyepecies have the largest field stop that you can use in the Denks without vignetting in low power.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the Binotrons and hope to buy a pair one day. I am bothered by the field illumination falloff, but I still feel like in the Dob, the ability to use all three modes of the powerwsitch make it a far better fit than in a large SCT where it is almost impossible to ever use the high power arm due to excessive magnificaiton.

I think for Dobs and Newts though, the value proposition is much better. The only real tradeoff with the Binotron/D21 is the illumination falloff in low power mode, but this may have something to do with having to have the OCS screwed out some to reachfocus. I was wondering if the probelm would be less if the OCS could be fully retracted on the OCS.

I would rather have a little intrusion of the OCS into the light cone in low power mode than have the light fall off so much. The intrusion at low power doesn't matter, and it is out of the way at medium and high power.

But I stick to what I said earlier. If you made me pick just one, it would be the Mark V because it works best with the EdgeHD 8" and I can get pretty close to the same low power in the Newt with the Mark Vs even with the 1.7x GPC because of the ability to run the Ultimas without meaningful off axis ray interception.

Just because I had not done it before, I checked the Mark V with the 1.7x GPC last night on Vega. I mean in normal focus, it i shard to see that the off axis rays are being affected in Mark V/1.7x combo.

I put in the 35mm Ultimas and defocused about 10 waves, and then slewed the pattern to the edge of the field.

About 70% out from the edge, I could see that there was some very slight slicing of the off axis rays. One edge of the pattern started to slightly flatten and I would estimate that at the edge of the field, the flattening would have accounted for about 15% to 20% of the pattern, and this is why it is hard to see in focus. The brighness (or darkness to be exact) of the edge of the field is not easy to see.

The Binotron though was more like 40% of the pattern being cut, and it is clear to see that the sky darkens considerably well before the field stop even of 20mm ES68s in the low power mode of the Denks.

Under a very dark sky, it might go unnoticed though, and it only seemeed to happen in the low power mode.

Again, I wonder is some of this was not caused by the need to have to extend the OCS so much to reach focus (over half an inch).

Now that I have a lower profile focuser, I would like to re-try. I am guessing I could now reach focus with the OCS fully retracted, which might make a big improvement.

It will only cost me $1250 to find out.


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Eddgie
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Pingster]
      #6067832 - 09/07/13 01:39 PM

The low power arm is not really intended for eyepeices with this big a field stop.

The D21s are the best match for the aperture of the low power arm.

This is why when I write these notes I always say "using the D21s in the Binotron." This is the optimal eyepiece for low power function in the Binotron without vignetting.

If someone does not mind the vignetting then of course they can use lower power eyepieces with bigger field stops.

And if you use the Denk with 26mm Plossl you get about the same magnification in my dob as using the Mark V with the 35mm Ultima.

As it turns out, when you push things to the extreme ends, the Mark V actually holds up better than most people realize. The 1.7x GPC sounds like a big handicap, but for getting the lowest power field without vignetting, the big prisms of the Mark V allows you to use something like the 35mm Ultimas, and suddenly you are in the same game.

And the Baader GPC was designed as a coma corrector as well, and it is very effective. Even using Hyperions, the field is very sharp right to the edge in the 17 and 13s.

In fact, the performance is so good that I think I may have made an error rushing to the 24 ES eyepeices. I would like to try the 24 Hyperions with this setup. The 24mm Hyperions have a full 28mm field stop, so the true field would be almost as big as the Denks using the D21s.

Once again though, I love the powerswitch in a Dob or Newt. In that type of scope it is at its very best. The off axis illumination is not great with low power arm in (The Mark V with 1.7x GPC is better here too) but under darker skies this is harder to see and less of a bother, and the ability to so easily change powers is hard to dismiss.

And the Binotron is a first class unit optically and mechanically. There is a great deal to love there, and I can completely understand it when people say they love their Binotron.


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crazyqban
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6068409 - 09/07/13 07:32 PM

I would like to try the Binotrons but I think that it will be difficult for me to leave the Mark Vs. I had adapted a Denk Power Switch to use with my Mark Vs and was put off by the amount of re-focusing required when I would change the Power Switch arms. I find it easier to to swap out the eyepieces since most of the ones I have are parfocal. The one thing that I did miss from the Power Switch was the low power setting but I am able to get the same low power with the Mark Vs by using a Siebert 1.3X Multi OCA. I have been using this setup for a few years now and I am very happy with it.

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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: crazyqban]
      #6069192 - 09/08/13 10:11 AM

I did not like refocusing, but I do prefer it to changing eyepeices. At the dob, I generally have to get out of my chair and go get the eyepecies.

The Baader GPC though does provide a better off axis illumination than I was getting with the Binotron.

I think it is just a consequence of the long light path of the Binotron/Powerswtich. This configuration is maybe 25mm longer than the Mark V, and the OCS is a couple of millimeters less clear apeture (45 vs 47 for the Baader), and I think it is difficult to get all of the off axis ray bundle to make it to the field stop in such a long light path, and especially using smaller prisms.

And that is my struggle. I love my Mark Vs and they work well in all of my scopes.

But I love the powerswitch on the Binotron and the ability to easliy dial in multiple magnificaitons.

Even if I get the Binotron (and I want one), I don't know if I could bring myself to sell the Mark V.

And that now has become the issue. I have so much money invested in telescope stuff that somethign would have to go. I have enough money to buy a pair of binotrons right now out of pocket, but my ethic has been that this is a hobby, and these days, I try not to throw any more money into it.. If I want something new, I have told myself that I have to sell something to finance the new purchase.

And for now, I am not willing to do that. So the Binotron is on hold.

If the 12" dob works out, I will sell the C14 and either the LXD-750 mount (and move the 5" APO to the CGE) or the CGE.

But until I am ready to let something else go, the Binotron has to wait.

Maybe Santa will bring me a Binotron though... LOL.


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George9
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6079027 - 09/13/13 04:21 PM

I think for a new binoviewer owner, the Denk Supersystem is a really great, high-quality way to get into it. I added a 1.25" OCS and an extra adaptor for a Lunt diagonal, and I can reach focus with all my scopes and all the scopes I visit (refractors, small to large reflectors, solar scopes, Herschel wedges, etc.). There is always some way to come to focus with the available parts. And, because of the PowerSwitch, you can start off with just one high-quality eyepiece pair (e.g., D21s). Add a 2" Barlow and you have 6 magnifications. And if you drop it, which is not uncommon in the first week, it is back like new in another week.

If I wanted to spend the money, long term I would end up with the Baader Mark V. But then I would be figuring out which OTAs I have to cut, which scopes have to be replaced, etc. Not that you couldn't just mimic the Denk's optical train, but you wouldn't do that because the point of getting the Baader is to produce the cleanest path without all the correction lens (like the low power reducer).

George


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SteveH
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: George9]
      #6140940 - 10/16/13 01:35 PM

Off topic a bit, but does anyone have experience with how these two compare to the TeleVue BinoVue?

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Eddgie
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: SteveH]
      #6141407 - 10/16/13 05:54 PM

The Televue Bino has several pluses and minuses.

Pros:

Very high quality

Fully compatiable with the Baader T2 system, so you can use components like the Baader T2 Prism which has a very short light path, allowing full aperture in SCTs and the Baader Coma corrector for Newts (which works nicely). It can also be fitted with a Quick Connect ring to make swapping it back and forth very easy. I have two Mark Vs and I have four telescopes I use them on, and all are equipped with T2 Prisms or the Newt GPC, so I can swap the binoviewers very easily.

And finally, they have a 27mm prism to allow completely unvignetted operation with 24m Pans or ES 24/68s. This is compared to the 26mm of the Denk IIs (28mm for the Mark Vs, and yes there are eyepieces out there with 28mm field stops, so this is indeed a real advantage for the Mark V).

The downside. A longer light path than the Maxbright or the Mark V. If you are using it in a refractor, the shorter the light path, the more likely you are to reach focus without requiring a GPC, or if you do need the GPC, the shorter the light path, the less GPC you may need (lower magnification).

Next, while the quality is excellent, I don't think they have coatings that are in the same league as the Binotron or Mark V. There is a lot of glass in a binoviewer and coatings can make a difference.

Finally, they do not have adjustable diopters. This does not sound like all that big a deal, but then again, this means that you use them by slipping one eyepiece out 4mm or 5mm, then focusing the scope with that one eyepiece. Then you have to slip the other eyepiece in and out of its holder to reach focus for the other eye.

This is not all that hard to do, but the Binotron and Mark V allow you to set the proper focus for each eye once, then not have to mess with it. With the Binovue, every time you change eyepeices, you have to do this dance.

My biggest objection to the Binovue is the diopters (or lack of).

I love the big prism and the T2 compatibility.

If using a refractor though, the Maxbright with a T2 Prism may reach focus without a GPC, where the Binovue will almost always require one.

And if the Maxbight only needs a 1.25x GPC, the Binovue might need 1.5x due to the longer light path.

So, you pay more for a bigger prism so you can use a lower power wide field, but at the end of the day, you might get as big a true field using the Maxbright with shorter focal length eyepeices because it might not need a GPC or might need a less powerful one.

For an SCT though, I would go with the Binovue over the Maxbright because of the ability to use 24mm Pans with no vignetting.


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junomike
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6141586 - 10/16/13 07:07 PM Attachment (29 downloads)

Also, The TV's allow for easy use of eyepieces whether under-cut or not. This is due to the "splines" that clamp down on the eyepiece.

(TV's on left, WO on right)

Mike

Edited by junomike (10/16/13 07:08 PM)


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Eddgie
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: junomike]
      #6141620 - 10/16/13 07:23 PM

In fact this could be a big Plus. I use the ES 68s and they do not sit square always in the Mark V. They want to tilt into the stupid taper on the barrel. I have to hold the tops down when I tighten the eyepiece clamps on the Mark V or they may not bottom and then they won't be always be at the right focus and then I have trouble merging.

I hate those tapered undercuts. May go to 24mm Pans just for that reason.

Anyway, yes, this is a big plus...


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junomike
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6141630 - 10/16/13 07:29 PM

Ah, Eddgie, My 24mm Pans HAVE under-cuts as well as most I've seen for sale used?

Even the New versions look to have tapered under-cuts?

Mike


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SteveH
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: junomike]
      #6142358 - 10/17/13 07:20 AM

Guys,
thanks for the comments. Being I more of a refractor junkie (TV102 & TEC140) your comments in regards to use in refractors were most helpful.

Steve


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Eddgie
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: junomike]
      #6142509 - 10/17/13 09:28 AM

If the Televue has a shoulder above the taper then it will still be better than the ES 24.

The ES 24 has a reduced diameter at the top of the barrel, and this allows it to tip over to the side in the Mark V.


If the BVs are not vertical with respect to the ground, the weight of the eyepiece can cause it to not lay flat in the eyeppiece holder of the BV.

The bottom will be not flush aginst the eyepeice stop of the BV, and when you tighten, it tends to lift the barrel of the EP and pull it away from the EP stop, and unevenely. One eyepiece might come to rest a half millimeter above the stop, while the other might come to rest 1mm above the stop.

Most eyepeices with undercuts have exactly that. The undercut is a grove in the barrel but there is still a top, full width ring. When you insert the eyepeice, it is still supported in the eyepeice holder by that top ring.

When I use Hyperions, which are heavier than the ES eyepeices, I have no problem. I push them in until they stop and when I tighten, they star in position.

But the ES eyepeices simply don't do this. They tilt into the undercut and don't stay put when you tighten.

I hate this about them.

If Televue now has the same issue then of course I would not want them anymore than the ES.

But I believe they have simply beveled the bottom edge fo the groove and still maintain a top, full diameter ring.

I am sorry if I have done a poor job of explaining it, but you have to trust me on this. The taper does not work well with the Mark V, especially in a dob where the BV is always leaned over at a prett steep angle.

I really like the performance of the ES eyepeices, but the tapered undercut makes for some fussing about that I don't have with eyepeices that have a fill diameter ring at the top of the barrel.

In fact, the Mark V really doesn't care about traditionsl undercuts. There is noting to snag them.


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RAKing
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6142702 - 10/17/13 11:04 AM

The 24 Pans have a shoulder and drop into the Mark V with no issues. They were my favorite eyepieces with the binos.

Cheers,

Ron


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Eddgie
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: RAKing]
      #6142721 - 10/17/13 11:18 AM

Yes, the Mark V works great with traditional undercuts.

I know many hate undercuts, but they have saved my bacon many times.

I could do without then on 1.25" eyepieces, but not on 2".

I am sure that for most use though, the beveled style is fine, but I had trouble with this design in both the Maxbright bino (three screw model) and the Mark V.

They are excellent tough, and unless used prices for 24mm Pans fall, I will just stick with them.

Also, I hope to go to a Binotron for the dob, and if I do, using the 20mm ES with the slope won't matter because in a perfect world, I would not change eyepeices....


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Dex Wolfram
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6255476 - 12/15/13 11:30 PM

Quote:

Yes, the power switch can be removed. It unscrews from the bino body. The nose can then be threaded directly into the bino body.




Hey Eddgie, can you tell me what kind of threading this is? Need to know in advance!


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Eddgie
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Dex Wolfram]
      #6255889 - 12/16/13 09:33 AM

I'm sorry, I don't know the tread pitch.

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Dex Wolfram
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6256981 - 12/16/13 08:22 PM

Nor the diameter?

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Eddgie
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Dex Wolfram]
      #6257677 - 12/17/13 08:51 AM

Neither.

But the end of the OCS 2" nose has the same diapeter and pitch.

At leset it did on the Denk II.

You could unscrew the powerswitch and screw the nose directly into the base of the binoviewer body.

Just so you know, I don't currently own either the Denk or the Binotron so I can't measure it for you.

Sorry.

But if you have a caliper and you have a thread guage, you can measure it on the 2" nose and have your answer.


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Dex Wolfram
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Re: Baader Mark V vs Denkmeier Binotron binoviewer ? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6257947 - 12/17/13 11:23 AM

Don't own one (yet).

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