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Equipment Discussions >> Binoviewers

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Eddgie
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Reged: 02/01/06

Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: PJ Anway]
      #6260830 - 12/18/13 07:52 PM

It really is amazing. For years I would look at the sun once in a while, but it never really seemed all that great.

But with the binoviewers and the baadder film, the level of detail is insane!

And the recent activity is just begging us all to observe it!

Wonderful day today.

I have a Baader wedge on the gift list, and I think Santa is going to come through, so can't wait!


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TGModerator
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/02/06

Loc: Latitude 47
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6262393 - 12/19/13 05:56 PM

Quote:

Posted this before, but if you have not acted, you are missing one of the greatest shows on earth.

Have been doing a lot of white light solar. Astrozap Baader Film, SV110ED, Maxbright Mirror, 1.25x GPC, Mark V, and Hyperion zOOms.

Freaking amazing.




You mean like this?



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Pinbout
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Reged: 02/22/10

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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #6262490 - 12/19/13 07:10 PM

Quote:

HA and binoviewers.





oh! i so want one!


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Space Dragon
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Reged: 02/19/12

Loc: Scotland UK
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: TG]
      #6264050 - 12/20/13 04:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Posted this before, but if you have not acted, you are missing one of the greatest shows on earth.

Have been doing a lot of white light solar. Astrozap Baader Film, SV110ED, Maxbright Mirror, 1.25x GPC, Mark V, and Hyperion zOOms.

Freaking amazing.




You mean like this?






Great set up Tanveer.....must have taken you a while to save up your pocket money for that.....:-)

Seriously....I wish I'd got into observing when I was young....when my pupils dilated to about 10mm....great shot, good to see.


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aa6ww
professor emeritus
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Reged: 10/23/11

Loc: Sacramento, Calif.
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: TG]
      #6269770 - 12/24/13 12:14 AM

That's a really cute photo! She's even on a pink stool. It could win a photo contest its so cute!!

...Ralph


Quote:

Quote:

Posted this before, but if you have not acted, you are missing one of the greatest shows on earth.

Have been doing a lot of white light solar. Astrozap Baader Film, SV110ED, Maxbright Mirror, 1.25x GPC, Mark V, and Hyperion zOOms.

Freaking amazing.




You mean like this?






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aa6ww
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Reged: 10/23/11

Loc: Sacramento, Calif.
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: aa6ww]
      #6269783 - 12/24/13 12:22 AM Attachment (16 downloads)

SInce I have the next two weeks off from work, I spent the entire afternoon doing solar observing with both my SM-90 on my TOA, and also using my Kendrix Baader film white light filter again with my TOA.
Eddgie was absolutely correct in how detailed the images of the sun show up using a binoviewer with the baader film on an APO. The more I looked, the more impressed I was at how perfect the views were using the baader film. The white light filter could be taken to much higher magnifications than the H-alpha filter, and the images were just razor sharp. Even 1 eye viewing was very impressive.
May daugher said the two largest dark sun spots on the sun today looked like a pair of sun flower seeds lying on the surface!

Everyone should try it!!

... Ralph.


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: aa6ww]
      #6269866 - 12/24/13 01:44 AM

Beautiful setup!

Not sure who it was (maybe even it was you?) but I was told that the optimal aperture for solar white light was 5"!

Looks like you have the ideal setup.


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John Miele
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/29/05

Loc: North Alabama
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6272862 - 12/25/13 10:22 PM

Eddgie,

You are 100% on the money! I decided to try this today myself. Set up my 90mm APO with a baaderfilm solar filter and a binoviewer and it was Amazing! The longer I looked the more detail I saw. After a while, the entire solar surface became awash with mottling and scattered tiny sunspots began to appear that were at first not visible. I also saw a really neat looking super thin curving filament a little below and in between the two large sunspot groups currently visible. Quite a show. The two eyed view was clearly superior in terms of contrast than the mono view. I have used BVs before but not on the Sun...John

quote]It really is amazing. For years I would look at the sun once in a while, but it never really seemed all that great.

But with the binoviewers and the baadder film, the level of detail is insane!

And the recent activity is just begging us all to observe it!

Wonderful day today.

I have a Baader wedge on the gift list, and I think Santa is going to come through, so can't wait!




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Eddgie
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Reged: 02/01/06

Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: John Miele]
      #6273282 - 12/26/13 09:22 AM

Hi John,
I am so happy to hear that you took the "Challange" and not surprised by your result.

Not only do the binoviewers make it easier to resolve very fine detail, but they make it easy to be patient and wait for those moments of good seeing which almost always pop up frequently during my average session (though this is no different than planetary observing, where I almost always get frequent moments of improved seeing).

And when they do the level of detail has been pretty starggering. 6 Months ago, solar was a rare "Bored today" activity that showed only large detail.

The first time I spend an hour with the binoviewers, I think I had seen more detail in that one session than in the previous 10 years of occasional viewing!

Again, I am very thrilled that you took my challange and had a great experience.

I have not opened all of my presents yet, but am hoping there is a Solar Wedge there somewhere!

Keep looking. The longer you look, the more amazed you will be.

I see a pair of Baader zOOms in your future. LOL.


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Daniel Guzas
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Reged: 11/20/10

Loc: Bethlehem NH/ Boston MA
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6274488 - 12/26/13 09:39 PM

I am so going to get my white light solar filter out with the binoviewers... I haven't tried it yet but it seems that I have been missing out on all the fun...

I'll report back as soon as I have had a chance to give them a spin.!


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Eddgie
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Reged: 02/01/06

Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Daniel Guzas]
      #6274537 - 12/26/13 10:12 PM

Awaiting your result!

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plav1959
sage
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Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: Central Florida
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6277813 - 12/28/13 06:46 PM

Just wondering what configuration I would have to use with Binotrons? I've got both the Denk OCS 45 and the special Lunt OCS. Will be used with an ES 127 and Baader Herschel wedge. Thanks for any tips you guys can give me.

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BKBrown
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Reged: 08/23/09

Loc: Northern Virginia, USA
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6279134 - 12/29/13 12:54 PM

Hi Eddgie,

I just received a big roll of Baader visual solar film from Adorama this week and will be sitting down to make up several filters. It's big enough to do my C11, C925, and a couple of refractors (starting with the TEC 140) with material to spare. With only two binoviewing sessions under my belt using the WO BVs, it will be nice to get some additional stick time by solar viewing. Any suggestions on using the solar film? Construction tricks and tips? Am I nuts to be doing this for a C11?
Inquiring minds want to know

Clear Skies,
Brian


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Bill Cowles
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Reged: 04/16/06

Loc: Utah
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: plav1959]
      #6279206 - 12/29/13 01:38 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

I have a similar setup, but can't reach focus with my Denks. I contacted them and they warned me of possible de-cementing problems with the OCS. This is another reason for a front mounted white light filter. Until then I will just have to live with the awesome Ha views, with my Denks.

Bill


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: plav1959]
      #6279622 - 12/29/13 05:46 PM

I do not think you will be able to use the Binotron unless you can reach focus without the OCS.

Baader is very careful to say that no optical elements should be placed ahead of the wedge, and the Binotron OCS would indeed have to be in front of the wedge.

I don't know if this would be a problem or not, but it is possible that the elements in the OCS could get very hot.

I do not know if that is the case or not, but again, I can only tell you what Baader says, and they suggest not using anything in front of the wedge itself.


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hoes
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6279902 - 12/29/13 08:30 PM

In the case of the lunt wedge, the instructions talk about not putting a FILTER in front of the wedge- with the concern being damage to the filter not the wedge.

Also I spoke to Russ at denk about this configuration, he basically said that the only concern would be damage to the OCS glue- but that people do use it that way (implying that it was generally ok to do so but with some commen sense). I plan to try mine that way and check often if it gets warm. Although winter in new England will probably not be a worst case situation.
Steve


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: BKBrown]
      #6281655 - 12/30/13 05:10 PM

Hi Brian,
Well if you have enough film, doing the C11 is worth a try.

First and MOST IMPORTANT!!!!!

If you build your own filter, make sure it is TIGHT on the scope. YOu do not want the fitler to blow off while your eye is at the eyepeice. A big filter will be far more prone to being dislodged by a gust of wind.

I have considered the danger of using home made fitlers, and while I have not done one, this was the only area that I ever concerned me.

I would even go so far as trying to use some very positive method of ensureing the filter does not come off.

If you make a cardboard cell, please make sure the fit is quite snug on the refractors.


I am going to share my experience though, and if you decide to go ahead with the filter for C11,

A friend of mine heard that I was curios if the EdgeHD 8" would be better than my SV110ED for solar but was to cheap to buy a filter to find out when I was really enjoying the SV110.

Anyway, he just out of the blue offered to ship his own 8" Baader filter for me to compare.

Here is what I found on two different sessions.

When I very first started, I could indeed see a tiny bit more detail in the EdgeHD 8" than in the SV110.

In particular the penumrba filiment structure was just a bit easier to resolve.

Now these small differences only occured in moments of good seeing (and most days, for me, I find that in every 5 minute window there will be a few seconds where seeing gets pretty good.

But here is the odd think. After about 20 minutes, those brief moments of good seeing seemed to continue with the SV110ED, but the view in the EdgeHD 8" appeared to become more and more turbulent. After about 40 minutes, there was simply no period where I was able to resolve as much in the EdgeHD 8" as in the SV110.

Now from what I have been told by others, the filter is so dense that not enough energy should have made it to the mirror to cause this, but this is without a doubt what I observed. The view becaume horribly turbulet in the 8" and while I still had the normal seeing in the SV110ED, I was still getting moments of high res seeing in that scope lont after I was able to get the best images out of the EdgeHD 8".

By the end of an hour, the EdgeHD 8" was almost unusable becase of the turbulance.

Now, here is the question. Was this internal to the SCT, or was it external atmospheric that was just affecting the SCT far more.

I do not know the answer.

Tests were done with the scopes side by side.

I have two Mark V binoviewrs, and there was no swapping.

I was using different eyepeices but both gave about 96x, so all comparisons were done at about the same mags.

Test was done on two days but the first day the session was short, and perhaps not long enough to see whatever issue eventually occured on the longer day.

Anyway, that was my result. Whatever caused the degradation (internal or external) left me feeling that there was no advantage to using the EdgeHD 8" over the SV110ED.

And finallly this. It is rare for even the SV110ED to work at full resolution (which for me personally occurs at about 1x per millimeter of aperture. Past this, I can make the image bigger, but never really see any new deatil).

I have tried running the SV110ED at 120x and in a normal period of about 5 to 10 minutes (which is the most I usually go before haveing a brief window of high resoltion observing, and there simply are not enough periods of seeing to allow more resolution than I see at about 96x, and more often, I am limited to about 82x.

And if the most you can use in a session is 100x or so, there really is no point in hauling out an 11" scope. It is simply not going to resolve much more because daytime seeing is far worse than nighttime seeing.

If you try it though (and hey, why not?) I am eager to hear your own result.

Someone else on the solar forum suggested that they found that a 5" APO was about optimal for Solar, and based on my own experience, (EdgeHD 8" having the same contrast transfer as a 5" APO) I would say that he nailed it.

You can go bigger, but it is simply to hard to get much more than a 4" to 5" APO because seeing rarely lets you use much over 100x.

Hope this helps, and I do hope you try it (no point in letting that sheet of film go to waste).

Edited by Eddgie (12/31/13 09:34 AM)


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Qwickdraw
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6282848 - 12/31/13 07:19 AM

Eddgie,

While I agree that probably not enough energy should have made it past the filter of the edge to cause these " turbulence" consider the possibility that solar heating was occurring on the outside of the OTA and heating up the interior enough to cause these distortions. I would be curious if you could (during the same outside temperatures) perform the same test but put a white towel over the OTA and see if you have the same results.


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Qwickdraw
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #6282858 - 12/31/13 07:34 AM

OK, so I would like to try some solar binoviewing although I am very inexperienced at most things solar. I have an 4.1" Orion Mylar film filter. Is this the same material as the Baader visual solar film ?
If so, my intention would be to mount my AT72ED piggyback on my LX200 or just use my LX200 and step it down with the filter in front. Either way I would then have my Denk Binotron on the back end. Would one of these setups be preferred over another?


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #6283045 - 12/31/13 09:45 AM

Remember, when it is pointed at the sun, no sunlight falls directly on to the OTA. It is completely sheilded by the overhand of the filter itself. The OTA is in fact not receiving any direct sunlight.

Only off axis ambient light is getting to the tube.

Also, it was a cool day, and I kept feeling the tube to see if I could detect any sign that the tube was heating up, and during the whole session, the tube stayed at what felt like ambinent temps (no warmer than the refractor tube).

And that is what puzzled me. I could detect no sign of heating, but the view because far more turbulent in the SCT.

I had the theory that the concentration of energy on the secondary maybe raised the temprature a bit. The solar fielm rejects a lot of energy no doubt, the all of the energy that is being collected concentrates at an f/2 light cone and is intensfied greatly.

Remember, the primary has 45 swuare inches of collection, and all of the enerty is concentrated into the 4 sqaure inches of the secondary (the secondary obstruction is about 5 squre inces in area including the baffle, but the secondary mirror is only about 38mm across!).

It would not seem like enough energy to make a diference at the primary mirror, but squeezing it down to a 38mmm circle at the secondary is in fact a great concentration of what appears as a small amount of enerty into a much larger amount of enerty (per square millimeter).

This is my leading theory. I was getting thermal currentes off of the secondary mirror and they were captured in the secondary mirror baffle because of the nose high attitude of the scope.


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