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Equipment Discussions >> Binoviewers

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Eddgie
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Reged: 02/01/06

Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #6283067 - 12/31/13 09:53 AM

I do not know if the Orion is the same as Baader Film but it does not matter. I think the Baader film is the best filter material out there, but that does not mean other filter materials can't give you a good result.

As for which is better, I guess the one that is easiest to get going for an initial tryout.

It seems like with the fitler you have, you will have to engineer a way to attach it to either scope, so just do the one you think will be easiest to do.

Of course you should try it with both. I think the AT 72 will leave a bit of resolution on the table, and if you use the filter off-axis on the SCT you have a 4.1" unobstructed apeture, which in theory should give you almost the same contrast as I am getting with a 110ED refractor, and that is giving me incredible views.

But it won't happen all at once. You need to be patient and focus on one sunspot at high powers and wait for seeing to let detail snap to focus.


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DsoS4Life
sage


Reged: 12/03/13

Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: PJ Anway]
      #6286824 - 01/02/14 02:16 AM

have the WOs. 5in newt. made a filter out of the baader.
link to the post.
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6264764/page...

1st time doing this solar filter making and viewing..
cost me all of 24 bucks. 5in sq filter was only 18 bucks.. iam thinking of making another for my 12in..
i was blown away with cyclops. i didnt even think of the binos. maybe becuse i had like 3 or 4 mins of view time.. been cloudy.
i will give the WOs with the 20s and the zoomies. this should be sweet as you said ..

Edited by DsoS4Life (01/02/14 02:21 AM)


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George N
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: plav1959]
      #6288509 - 01/02/14 09:13 PM

Quote:

Just wondering what configuration I would have to use with Binotrons? I've got both the Denk OCS 45 and the special Lunt OCS. Will be used with an ES 127 and Baader Herschel wedge. Thanks for any tips you guys can give me.




As others have said, I don't think this will work. I know that my Denk II + ES127ED + Hershel Wedge will not come to focus. Considering that the Hershel Wedge gets hot enough that some units actually smoke until the oil burns off (had this happen with 3 different wedges from both makers) I would think it could cook the glue in the OCS lens, or even crack it.

I had a friend who mistakenly put a ND filter in front of a Lunt wedge on a 6-inch F/12 Astro-Physics refractor and..... *crack*!!! the filter actually cracked.

With my ES127ED I use a Baader solar filter in front of the lens when using a bino-viewer. The view is spectacular, and in some ways better than using a Wedge mono.


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hoes
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Reged: 02/02/12

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: George N]
      #6289090 - 01/03/14 06:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just wondering what configuration I would have to use with Binotrons? I've got both the Denk OCS 45 and the special Lunt OCS. Will be used with an ES 127 and Baader Herschel wedge. Thanks for any tips you guys can give me.




As others have said, I don't think this will work. I know that my Denk II + ES127ED + Hershel Wedge will not come to focus. Considering that the Hershel Wedge gets hot enough that some units actually smoke until the oil burns off (had this happen with 3 different wedges from both makers) I would think it could cook the glue in the OCS lens, or even crack it.

I had a friend who mistakenly put a ND filter in front of a Lunt wedge on a 6-inch F/12 Astro-Physics refractor and..... *crack*!!! the filter actually cracked.

With my ES127ED I use a Baader solar filter in front of the lens when using a bino-viewer. The view is spectacular, and in some ways better than using a Wedge mono.





OK - I'm confused, I would think there would be a big difference between how a filter or wedge (that are designed to reflect, absorb etc the light energy) and how an OCS would respond (designed to transmit the energy)

I would guess that the transmission efficiency of the OTA objective and the OCS are very similar - so about the same amount of energy will be absorbed by both - so why no concern over the objective and major concern over the OCS?

The fact that the light is more concetrated in the OCS should not matter since we are not talking about damaging a lens coating but rather the glue holding the OCS together. Since the amount of energy absorbed is similar, doesn't it come down to how well the OCS or objective can dissipate the heat - which is more dependent on materials used in the construction or geometries involved (the circumference of my OTA objective is roughly 2x that of my OCS - not really that different)

What am I missing?

Steve


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Eddgie
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Reged: 02/01/06

Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: hoes]
      #6289235 - 01/03/14 09:29 AM

You can use an OCS with a full apeture filter. Almost all of the energy is rejected by the fitler. Only a tiny fraction arrives at any optic placed in the light path.

The wedge does not use any kind of prefilter, so the light cone that converges is at full intensity, and do not make the mistake of thinking that there is not much energy there. There is in fact an enormous amount of energy converging on the wedge.

In fact, look at the design of the Baader wedge. In the wedge only 4% of the enesrgy gets refeclted off the front of the wedge and out of the eyepeice.

The amount that goes through the back hits a perforated ceramic plate and this is where the excess energy is dumpted.

The wedge prism itself gets very hot but it is a single emelment and contains no kind of cementing.

If your OCS contains cement between the elements (common for small doublet lenses) the cement itself could melt out.

Baader is very specific and recommends that no elememts be placed in front of the wedge because they could be damaged by the intense heat.

If you have ever set a peice of paper on fire with even a cheap magnificying glass, you should realize the danger of putting anything in the light cone that was not designed to be there.

But hey, it is your OCS. Have at it.

Let us know if it works.

I personally think it is a bad idea though, and so does Baader.

But we all get to do what we want to do in this life.

Have fun!


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hoes
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Reged: 02/02/12

Loc: Boston MA
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6289405 - 01/03/14 11:13 AM

I appreciate the reply Eddgie - I'm just trying to understand a little more deeply why I should not try it. Honestly still does not makes sense to me...

(BTW your posts on this site were invaluable in helping me make the decision to buy a binotron)

So I understand why the wedge gets hot - heck that is its whole purpose -to dissipate the light energy before it gets to the eye.

But the OCS is different - it is further from the focal plane and designed to efficiently transmit the energy - not absorb it. To the extent that the light is concentrated compared with at the objective should not be a factor given it is concentrated on the OCS glass not the glue. The issue is how much energy is absorbed by the OCS glass and coatings (not much?) and then how well it is dissipated.
Again the situation at the OCS does not seem that much different to me than at the objective - is the concern that the heat from the wedge will move to the OCS?

Anyway, another point that confuses me is why is this much different that using a wedge with a Petzval refactor - which some on this site have reported doing successfully?


Regards

Steve


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Eddgie
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Reged: 02/01/06

Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: hoes]
      #6289719 - 01/03/14 01:47 PM

Well, that is why I am saying maybe it will be OK.

But maybe not. I can only report the caution by Baader.

Also, in the Televue Petzpal scopes the rear element is air spaced, and it is much further ahead of the focal plane than an OCS would be.

Nothing stopping you from trying it though. There is a risk that you might damage the element, but it might work fine.

Try it and see.


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Tak North
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/28/07

Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6289799 - 01/03/14 02:37 PM

My OCS is pretty expensive. For that reason alone I don't even want to take the risk of cooking it.

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Bill Cowles
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Reged: 04/16/06

Loc: Utah
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Tak North]
      #6289875 - 01/03/14 03:08 PM

Russ at Denkmeir, said no, to placing the OCS in front of a wedge!

Bill


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Daniel Guzas
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Reged: 11/20/10

Loc: Bethlehem NH/ Boston MA
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Bill Cowles]
      #6290083 - 01/03/14 04:49 PM

Quote:

Russ at Denkmeir, said no, to placing the OCS in front of a wedge!

Bill




Would this ring true for a Lunt ls60 ha scope?? Putting the OCS before the diagonal? Or does the objective of this scope reject enough energy to safely use the OCS here??


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Bill Cowles
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Reged: 04/16/06

Loc: Utah
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Daniel Guzas]
      #6290174 - 01/03/14 05:55 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

You are correct, there is no problem with the OCS in front of the diagonal.

Bill


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Daniel Guzas
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Bill Cowles]
      #6291653 - 01/04/14 11:47 AM

Quote:

You are correct, there is no problem with the OCS in front of the diagonal.

Bill




Ahh just what I wanted to hear! Thanks!!! Now to save those precious $$ for a LS 60 Ha scope..


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Bill Cowles
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Reged: 04/16/06

Loc: Utah
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Daniel Guzas]
      #6291716 - 01/04/14 12:15 PM

As good as the LS60 is, it's a whole different world, when used with bino's and once I get a front mounted solar filter for my ES 127, hope to enjoy white light with my bino's.

Bill


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Chopin
Canis Insanus
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Reged: 02/03/05

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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Bill Cowles]
      #6292021 - 01/04/14 02:21 PM Attachment (8 downloads)

I have to say, I finally tried it today (in the middle if it now, in fact). It's pretty darned amazing. AR1944 is just bursting with details right now, so if you ever wanted to see 3-D in white light now is the time to do it. Using an AT72ED/Mylar film, Maxbright/1.7x, Pentax XF12's. The disk is superb at 60x.

Edited by Chopin (01/04/14 02:22 PM)


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Chopin]
      #6293422 - 01/05/14 09:27 AM

Yes, that was my point. I have done solar white light over the years and never "warmed up" to it. The details just never seemed to be all that fine or compelling.

But the first time I put binoviewers on my C5, even with the glass filter, I was rewarded with the best views I had ever gotten.

And since then, I moved to a Baader film fiter, then a 100mm f/9 achro, then to the SV110ED, then to the Baader zOOms, and then to the Baader wedge.

Every change brought a small improvement (except the z00ms, but now I could not imaging solar using anything else because of the ability to quickly react to seeing which can change drastically from minute to minutes) and as amazed as I was when I started, I know feel like I am getting better resolution than most CCD pictures.

Opposite of planets, where the CCDs usually show more. Here, I feel like I am beating the CCD imsages every day.


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Paul G
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Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #6293507 - 01/05/14 10:19 AM

Quote:

I have an 4.1" Orion Mylar film filter. Is this the same material as the Baader visual solar film ?




No. The Baader film is not mylar.


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Bill Cowles]
      #6293529 - 01/05/14 10:31 AM

I am really looking forward to your result.

The more I do solar in white lighth (though with the wedge and Solar Continuum filter, it is "Green Light), the more amazed I become.

While Ha looks very appealing, there is far more in white light than people realize.

I can go an entire session and not exaust the detail even in a single sunspot (though in an hour session, I might only have 3 to 4 minutes total of good seeing).

There is just so much to see!

I used to think that the detail was mostly in the penumbra (and to be fair, this is where most of it is), but since have learned that there are often details within the umbra.

See my current post on the big filiment arc that I was able to see in AR1944. First time I have seen this particular kind of detail, but now of course I am curious to see if it is more common.

There are light bridges of course, but ther are also sometimes little light islands, and the boundry between the filiments extending into the umbra often has little "Rivers" that creep between them.

It is just spectacular, and it can actually change in the period of an hour!!!

Nothing as dynamic as the sun. Every day it is different and you can watch the sunspots evolve.

I am in fact dying to try it with my 6" APO!


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Qwickdraw
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Paul G]
      #6293560 - 01/05/14 10:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have an 4.1" Orion Mylar film filter. Is this the same material as the Baader visual solar film ?




No. The Baader film is not mylar.




Okay, perhaps my question should have been is the Orion film solar filters the same basic material as the Baader film?


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Paul G
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Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #6294181 - 01/05/14 03:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I have an 4.1" Orion Mylar film filter. Is this the same material as the Baader visual solar film ?




No. The Baader film is not mylar.




Okay, perhaps my question should have been is the Orion film solar filters the same basic material as the Baader film?




Ha! In the description of the 6" Orion film solar filter on Amazon it says, "Made with high-quality, streak-free and blister-free Baader Astro Solar Safety Film."


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EuropaWill
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6304269 - 01/10/14 01:48 PM

I have to agree with Eddgie 100%.

Monoviewing through my AT106LE shows very little granulation and faculae, but binoviewing completely transforms the surface with granulation seen accross the entire surface and faculae showing up not only towards the sun's limb, but accross the entire surface. Sun spots show striations which look like magnetic patterns.

I have tried a yellow #8 and Orange #21, and despite the orange #21 producing a moment (close to the color seen with HA but none of that type of detail), I haven't seen more detail with the color filters regarding granulation, sunspot detail or faculae. I prefer straight Baader Astrosolar Film.

I also echo Eddgie's strong recommendation with getting a HEAVY cell to put over your scope. I got my Baader Film already mounted in an aluminum cell from Agena. I believe it provides about 70mm clear aperture. That turns my FPL-53 triplet APO from f6.5 to approximately f10. Think about the color correction i'm getting at that aperture! Its very heavy and gives me an extra measure of confidence when using it. Also, before looking through the scope, always look through the filter towards the sun to look for pin holes that may have developed. If you see any pin holes, i would get new Baader film to replace it with.


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