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Equipment Discussions >> Binoviewers

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Eddgie
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Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!!
      #6258051 - 12/17/13 12:28 PM

Posted this before, but if you have not acted, you are missing one of the greatest shows on earth.

Have been doing a lot of white light solar. Astrozap Baader Film, SV110ED, Maxbright Mirror, 1.25x GPC, Mark V, and Hyperion zOOms.

Freaking amazing. The sun is putting on a really grand show.

As I mentioned in earlier posts, I have done solar white light on and off over the years, but never felt like I got a good result.

The first time I turned the C5 towards the sun with a binoviewer, the improvment was easily visible. I started to see more structure in sunspots, and faclua looked far more pronounced.

And as I progressed up to the 100mm f/9 achromat (proof of concept for seeing is I like using a small refractor for binoviewing, and Oh it is fantastic by the say) I saw more detail, and going to the 110ED scope was another big move (I could reallly tell the chromatic aberration on the achromat was badly damaging contrast).

And the level of detail I am getting now is nothing short of titanic! The amount of structure even inside of a sunspot surprised me. Light islands in big sunspots are now common, and the structure in the penumbra is endless.

Granulation is easy and vast, and facula extend far in fromt he limb in the binoviewers... Much further than I think I could see in Mono-vision, and the detail of the Facula is far more complex than I used to realize.

And if you already have a binoviewer and a 4" to 5" ED or APO, Baader film filters are soooooo cheap that if you have not tried this, I am almost begging you do do so.

The binoviewers were the key, I am convinced. I simply could never resolve the detail present in the past.

And now, I feel like I am routinely seeing more detail in white light than most of the solar CCD images I look at. This is the opposite of normal planetary, were I often struggle to match the CCD. Here, I feel like I am leaving the CCD images in the dust. The shear volume of detail makes it impossible to exaust the sun in an hour session. I feel like I am only just scratching the surface.

And as you watch a an active region, you can see the changes from day to day as the regions develop, transform, and then rotate out of sight or simply start to morph back into a quiet state.

What a fantastic spectacle. The sun with the binoviewers has become one of my favorite targets. I am now doing more white light solar than DSO!!!

Tips.. Again, 4" to 5" ED or APO (achromat works, but result is much better with one of these types).

Baader Solar Film. I know there are some that say a high quality glass filter is as good. Maybe. Maybe not. On the solar forum, I was told by many that the Baader would be better, and while I often am skeptical of claims of a big improvement, here I got one. Your mileage may vary.

Keep the target region in the dead center of the field. This is my advice for any kind of high resolution observng. Most eyepecies are only diffraction limited over a small area. If you want the most detail, keep the AR you are studying at the exact center of the field.

I recommed 100X to 120x. Daytime seeing will rarely allow you to see a steady image, and even at this power, 90% of the time, seeing will be holding you back.

But you are living for those brief 10 second periods every 4 or 5 minutes where seeing improves enough that 100x works.

Much of the structure in the ubra and especially the penumbra needs 100x to be big enough to resolve angularly. The view might be sharpter at 50x, but trust me, you are missing all of the really good stuff....

If you have binoviewers and a 4" to 5" ED or APO, and you have not done solar white light, don't miss this fantastic time when the sunspot activity is coveing the solar disk with an incredible amount of fascinating detail!

Off axis for an SCT might work, but I had problems with the image becoming unstable after 20 minutes using full aperture. The tube did not feel warm or anything, but side by side with the 110ED, even though the EdgeHD 8" started out delieveing slightly more detail, after 20 minutes, it was clear to me that there was some kind of thermal issue. There were simply no moments of good seeing. The 110ED walked away.

Off apeture might (or might not) fix it if it were some kind of thermal issue, but then you are limited to the smaller aperture. If you have an ED refractor, I would suggest it as a better choice.

Edited by Eddgie (12/17/13 01:14 PM)


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Messyone
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6258336 - 12/17/13 03:11 PM

Totally agree. I even made a dedicated solar dew shield for my ATM 6" frac. Just a shield with Baader film semi/permanently mounted in it.
More Sun that stars where I am.
Matt


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Messyone]
      #6258428 - 12/17/13 04:12 PM

Yes, you can buy a square Baader film for $30 and make a decent cell from cardboard!

Anyone that has a 4" to 5" ED scope and a binoviewer that doesn't do this is simply missing out on a great show!


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A6Q6
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6258597 - 12/17/13 05:19 PM

I have been using a 30+ old year Solar Skreen filter by Roger Tuthill on my Quantum 6 and a stopped down 6"-5" Orion glass filter for my C5. Before I made the glass filter smaller it was worthless. The views are almost as good as the Solar Skreen, but I am hoping Santa will give me a Baader for My Q6 and C5 And yes binoviewing is the only way to go.

Edited by A6Q6 (12/17/13 05:20 PM)


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Moey
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6258667 - 12/17/13 05:58 PM

Fascinating report I must try this.

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Tak North
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Moey]
      #6259321 - 12/18/13 01:01 AM

Yep, try the Baader Herschel Wedge too. Simply AMAZING! I know some of the hardcore Ha guys will probably cringe, but I'll take my Tak FS 102 with the Wedge and BV's over my Coronado filter any day!

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aa6ww
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Tak North]
      #6259426 - 12/18/13 03:57 AM

The Binoviewer adds contras to the visual effect, just like during night time observing. The differences with an H-alpha filter are just as pronounced. Filaments I can just barely make out with one eye, with my SM-90, look like snakes crawling along and around the surface of the sun with two eyes. Especially when using CeMax eyepieces which give you even more contras.
I have a Kendrix Baader film on my 180mm refractor. The effect with the binoviewer definitely shows more contras on the surface. I also have the same Baader film on my C14 with a full aperture Kendrix filter. There is so much surface attention, with and with out the binoviewer, that the surface looks like a boiling pot, With the Binoviewer, you get a 3D image of the sun sports and can see how they sink into the surface of the sun more than the surrounding areas.
One side note to this, is when using a Baader IR/UV filter, or even just a MV-1 filter, also increases the contras to the heavily granular surface.
The hard glass filters show none of this. Only the baader film shows this.


...Ralph


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mhilscher
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Tak North]
      #6259428 - 12/18/13 04:00 AM

Thank you Eddgie, another great write-up

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hfjacinto
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: mhilscher]
      #6259743 - 12/18/13 09:56 AM Attachment (20 downloads)

Eddgie, its time for you to go to the next level.

HA and binoviewers.


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Jeff B
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Tak North]
      #6259744 - 12/18/13 09:56 AM

Quote:

Yep, try the Baader Herschel Wedge too. Simply AMAZING! I know some of the hardcore Ha guys will probably cringe, but I'll take my Tak FS 102 with the Wedge and BV's over my Coronado filter any day!




A big plus one on that.

Using a quality wedge will improve the image over any film by a solid couple of notches. The difference is not subtle.

Now for my own bit of heresy, use a yellow filter, especially a deep yellow or even orange filter, on that humble achromat and be prepared to be shocked at how sharp the solar image will now be. And I really like the warmer color. Funny though the images turns slightly greenish to me if I stare long enough so I just take a break and look around to let the old rods & cones readjust.

Binoviewing is IMO, THE way to do solar.

And yeah Ed the sun has been wonderful to look at lately. It always blows peoples heads off when I say that you could safely drive the Earth/Moon system through one of those "small spots". Good read and thanks.

Jeff


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hfjacinto
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #6259748 - 12/18/13 09:59 AM Attachment (28 downloads)

This is what you see (with Double Stacking)

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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Tak North]
      #6259762 - 12/18/13 10:06 AM

In fact, a Baader prism is on my short list to Santa!

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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #6259773 - 12/18/13 10:14 AM

Oh, have been tempted.

The purpose of the post though was to encourage people that already have BVs and have not tried solar to do so given the very low price of a small square of Baader film (and even the Astrozap filer is pretty darned cheap).

I have been doing solar white light now only since spring, but the amount of detail I am seeing even in white light was far more than I ever realized.

Just want to encourage people to give it a shot.

I am though interested in Ha. The equipment price is of course holding me back, and I have to say that at this moment in time, I am enjoying white light so much that I am not feeling compelled to move.

There is this though... Santa's Elf has told me that there is something "Wonderful" and "A big surprise" that will be under the tree.

The Considering that I go out almost every day that I can to do solar these days, maybe she did some searching and discovered Ha telescopes.

That would indeed be a big surprise.

But I am loving white light, and again, after years of trying solar, never really enjoyed it... Until I binoviewed the sun. Was a real Wow! moment.

Maybe Ha is in the future even if Santa doesn't deliver though.

But everyone that is sitting there with a binoviewer and a 4" to 5" scope that has not tried solar needs to jump in.

The current cycle is putting on a great show, and no one should miss it. I could never have imagined that solar white light would be so good!


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Tak North
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Reged: 11/28/07

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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6259965 - 12/18/13 12:11 PM

Quote:

In fact, a Baader prism is on my short list to Santa!






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Paul G
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6259970 - 12/18/13 12:15 PM

Quote:

Maybe Ha is in the future even if Santa doesn't deliver though.




You'll be blown away.


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Tak North
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Reged: 11/28/07

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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: aa6ww]
      #6259973 - 12/18/13 12:16 PM

Quote:

The differences with an H-alpha filter are just as pronounced. Filaments I can just barely make out with one eye, with my SM-90, look like snakes crawling along and around the surface of the sun with two eyes. Especially when using CeMax eyepieces which give you even more contras....Ralph




I've long suspected that this is probably the case. However, right now I "only" have a single stacked 60mm so the image is rather dim and low contrast to start with. Coupled with the fact that it's bright outside, and for me the Ha BV experience has always been somewhat underwhelming. The nice thing about the wedge is there is no shortage of light - you can change around the ND filters to get as much as you need!

A 90 mm Ha setup is definitely in my Long Range Plan though.


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Jeff B
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #6260014 - 12/18/13 12:33 PM

Quote:

This is what you see (with Double Stacking)




Ok, I've GOT to get me one of those double stacked HA thingies!


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6260135 - 12/18/13 01:42 PM

Just a follow.

Long periods of almost perfect seeing today.

GASP!

120x in the 110ED and Mark Vs with GPC.

Better than CCD. Level of detail was through the roof!

Longer post on the Solar forum, but mostly just a big GASP at the level of detail.

Truly staggering.

And for the price of a sheet of solar film and 30 minutes of time to make an inexpensive cell from cardboard, everyone can enjoy this spectacular show!

Best ever solar day.

Before binoviewing, I just could not get that interested in the sun, but the Baader filter and the binoviewers were a radical step up.

Anyone that has a binoviewer and a 4" to 5" refractor that has not tried this needs to get off their behinds and give it a stab.

Freaking fantastic.


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R Botero
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6260433 - 12/18/13 04:14 PM

Solar binoviewing with quality optics is simply amazing - good seeing helps too! White light, Ha, whatever, the joy of taking in the sun through both eyes is enormous
Thanks for the reports Eddgie!


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PJ Anway
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: R Botero]
      #6260752 - 12/18/13 07:05 PM

Since I first tried it, I have only viewed the sun through a binoviewer. Simply stunning and I'll never go back to "monoviewing" when it comes to the sun.

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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: PJ Anway]
      #6260830 - 12/18/13 07:52 PM

It really is amazing. For years I would look at the sun once in a while, but it never really seemed all that great.

But with the binoviewers and the baadder film, the level of detail is insane!

And the recent activity is just begging us all to observe it!

Wonderful day today.

I have a Baader wedge on the gift list, and I think Santa is going to come through, so can't wait!


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TGModerator
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6262393 - 12/19/13 05:56 PM

Quote:

Posted this before, but if you have not acted, you are missing one of the greatest shows on earth.

Have been doing a lot of white light solar. Astrozap Baader Film, SV110ED, Maxbright Mirror, 1.25x GPC, Mark V, and Hyperion zOOms.

Freaking amazing.




You mean like this?



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Pinbout
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #6262490 - 12/19/13 07:10 PM

Quote:

HA and binoviewers.





oh! i so want one!


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Space Dragon
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: TG]
      #6264050 - 12/20/13 04:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Posted this before, but if you have not acted, you are missing one of the greatest shows on earth.

Have been doing a lot of white light solar. Astrozap Baader Film, SV110ED, Maxbright Mirror, 1.25x GPC, Mark V, and Hyperion zOOms.

Freaking amazing.




You mean like this?






Great set up Tanveer.....must have taken you a while to save up your pocket money for that.....:-)

Seriously....I wish I'd got into observing when I was young....when my pupils dilated to about 10mm....great shot, good to see.


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aa6ww
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: TG]
      #6269770 - 12/24/13 12:14 AM

That's a really cute photo! She's even on a pink stool. It could win a photo contest its so cute!!

...Ralph


Quote:

Quote:

Posted this before, but if you have not acted, you are missing one of the greatest shows on earth.

Have been doing a lot of white light solar. Astrozap Baader Film, SV110ED, Maxbright Mirror, 1.25x GPC, Mark V, and Hyperion zOOms.

Freaking amazing.




You mean like this?






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aa6ww
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: aa6ww]
      #6269783 - 12/24/13 12:22 AM Attachment (16 downloads)

SInce I have the next two weeks off from work, I spent the entire afternoon doing solar observing with both my SM-90 on my TOA, and also using my Kendrix Baader film white light filter again with my TOA.
Eddgie was absolutely correct in how detailed the images of the sun show up using a binoviewer with the baader film on an APO. The more I looked, the more impressed I was at how perfect the views were using the baader film. The white light filter could be taken to much higher magnifications than the H-alpha filter, and the images were just razor sharp. Even 1 eye viewing was very impressive.
May daugher said the two largest dark sun spots on the sun today looked like a pair of sun flower seeds lying on the surface!

Everyone should try it!!

... Ralph.


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: aa6ww]
      #6269866 - 12/24/13 01:44 AM

Beautiful setup!

Not sure who it was (maybe even it was you?) but I was told that the optimal aperture for solar white light was 5"!

Looks like you have the ideal setup.


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John Miele
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6272862 - 12/25/13 10:22 PM

Eddgie,

You are 100% on the money! I decided to try this today myself. Set up my 90mm APO with a baaderfilm solar filter and a binoviewer and it was Amazing! The longer I looked the more detail I saw. After a while, the entire solar surface became awash with mottling and scattered tiny sunspots began to appear that were at first not visible. I also saw a really neat looking super thin curving filament a little below and in between the two large sunspot groups currently visible. Quite a show. The two eyed view was clearly superior in terms of contrast than the mono view. I have used BVs before but not on the Sun...John

quote]It really is amazing. For years I would look at the sun once in a while, but it never really seemed all that great.

But with the binoviewers and the baadder film, the level of detail is insane!

And the recent activity is just begging us all to observe it!

Wonderful day today.

I have a Baader wedge on the gift list, and I think Santa is going to come through, so can't wait!




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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: John Miele]
      #6273282 - 12/26/13 09:22 AM

Hi John,
I am so happy to hear that you took the "Challange" and not surprised by your result.

Not only do the binoviewers make it easier to resolve very fine detail, but they make it easy to be patient and wait for those moments of good seeing which almost always pop up frequently during my average session (though this is no different than planetary observing, where I almost always get frequent moments of improved seeing).

And when they do the level of detail has been pretty starggering. 6 Months ago, solar was a rare "Bored today" activity that showed only large detail.

The first time I spend an hour with the binoviewers, I think I had seen more detail in that one session than in the previous 10 years of occasional viewing!

Again, I am very thrilled that you took my challange and had a great experience.

I have not opened all of my presents yet, but am hoping there is a Solar Wedge there somewhere!

Keep looking. The longer you look, the more amazed you will be.

I see a pair of Baader zOOms in your future. LOL.


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Daniel Guzas
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6274488 - 12/26/13 09:39 PM

I am so going to get my white light solar filter out with the binoviewers... I haven't tried it yet but it seems that I have been missing out on all the fun...

I'll report back as soon as I have had a chance to give them a spin.!


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Daniel Guzas]
      #6274537 - 12/26/13 10:12 PM

Awaiting your result!

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plav1959
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6277813 - 12/28/13 06:46 PM

Just wondering what configuration I would have to use with Binotrons? I've got both the Denk OCS 45 and the special Lunt OCS. Will be used with an ES 127 and Baader Herschel wedge. Thanks for any tips you guys can give me.

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BKBrown
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6279134 - 12/29/13 12:54 PM

Hi Eddgie,

I just received a big roll of Baader visual solar film from Adorama this week and will be sitting down to make up several filters. It's big enough to do my C11, C925, and a couple of refractors (starting with the TEC 140) with material to spare. With only two binoviewing sessions under my belt using the WO BVs, it will be nice to get some additional stick time by solar viewing. Any suggestions on using the solar film? Construction tricks and tips? Am I nuts to be doing this for a C11?
Inquiring minds want to know

Clear Skies,
Brian


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Bill Cowles
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: plav1959]
      #6279206 - 12/29/13 01:38 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

I have a similar setup, but can't reach focus with my Denks. I contacted them and they warned me of possible de-cementing problems with the OCS. This is another reason for a front mounted white light filter. Until then I will just have to live with the awesome Ha views, with my Denks.

Bill


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: plav1959]
      #6279622 - 12/29/13 05:46 PM

I do not think you will be able to use the Binotron unless you can reach focus without the OCS.

Baader is very careful to say that no optical elements should be placed ahead of the wedge, and the Binotron OCS would indeed have to be in front of the wedge.

I don't know if this would be a problem or not, but it is possible that the elements in the OCS could get very hot.

I do not know if that is the case or not, but again, I can only tell you what Baader says, and they suggest not using anything in front of the wedge itself.


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hoes
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6279902 - 12/29/13 08:30 PM

In the case of the lunt wedge, the instructions talk about not putting a FILTER in front of the wedge- with the concern being damage to the filter not the wedge.

Also I spoke to Russ at denk about this configuration, he basically said that the only concern would be damage to the OCS glue- but that people do use it that way (implying that it was generally ok to do so but with some commen sense). I plan to try mine that way and check often if it gets warm. Although winter in new England will probably not be a worst case situation.
Steve


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: BKBrown]
      #6281655 - 12/30/13 05:10 PM

Hi Brian,
Well if you have enough film, doing the C11 is worth a try.

First and MOST IMPORTANT!!!!!

If you build your own filter, make sure it is TIGHT on the scope. YOu do not want the fitler to blow off while your eye is at the eyepeice. A big filter will be far more prone to being dislodged by a gust of wind.

I have considered the danger of using home made fitlers, and while I have not done one, this was the only area that I ever concerned me.

I would even go so far as trying to use some very positive method of ensureing the filter does not come off.

If you make a cardboard cell, please make sure the fit is quite snug on the refractors.


I am going to share my experience though, and if you decide to go ahead with the filter for C11,

A friend of mine heard that I was curios if the EdgeHD 8" would be better than my SV110ED for solar but was to cheap to buy a filter to find out when I was really enjoying the SV110.

Anyway, he just out of the blue offered to ship his own 8" Baader filter for me to compare.

Here is what I found on two different sessions.

When I very first started, I could indeed see a tiny bit more detail in the EdgeHD 8" than in the SV110.

In particular the penumrba filiment structure was just a bit easier to resolve.

Now these small differences only occured in moments of good seeing (and most days, for me, I find that in every 5 minute window there will be a few seconds where seeing gets pretty good.

But here is the odd think. After about 20 minutes, those brief moments of good seeing seemed to continue with the SV110ED, but the view in the EdgeHD 8" appeared to become more and more turbulent. After about 40 minutes, there was simply no period where I was able to resolve as much in the EdgeHD 8" as in the SV110.

Now from what I have been told by others, the filter is so dense that not enough energy should have made it to the mirror to cause this, but this is without a doubt what I observed. The view becaume horribly turbulet in the 8" and while I still had the normal seeing in the SV110ED, I was still getting moments of high res seeing in that scope lont after I was able to get the best images out of the EdgeHD 8".

By the end of an hour, the EdgeHD 8" was almost unusable becase of the turbulance.

Now, here is the question. Was this internal to the SCT, or was it external atmospheric that was just affecting the SCT far more.

I do not know the answer.

Tests were done with the scopes side by side.

I have two Mark V binoviewrs, and there was no swapping.

I was using different eyepeices but both gave about 96x, so all comparisons were done at about the same mags.

Test was done on two days but the first day the session was short, and perhaps not long enough to see whatever issue eventually occured on the longer day.

Anyway, that was my result. Whatever caused the degradation (internal or external) left me feeling that there was no advantage to using the EdgeHD 8" over the SV110ED.

And finallly this. It is rare for even the SV110ED to work at full resolution (which for me personally occurs at about 1x per millimeter of aperture. Past this, I can make the image bigger, but never really see any new deatil).

I have tried running the SV110ED at 120x and in a normal period of about 5 to 10 minutes (which is the most I usually go before haveing a brief window of high resoltion observing, and there simply are not enough periods of seeing to allow more resolution than I see at about 96x, and more often, I am limited to about 82x.

And if the most you can use in a session is 100x or so, there really is no point in hauling out an 11" scope. It is simply not going to resolve much more because daytime seeing is far worse than nighttime seeing.

If you try it though (and hey, why not?) I am eager to hear your own result.

Someone else on the solar forum suggested that they found that a 5" APO was about optimal for Solar, and based on my own experience, (EdgeHD 8" having the same contrast transfer as a 5" APO) I would say that he nailed it.

You can go bigger, but it is simply to hard to get much more than a 4" to 5" APO because seeing rarely lets you use much over 100x.

Hope this helps, and I do hope you try it (no point in letting that sheet of film go to waste).

Edited by Eddgie (12/31/13 09:34 AM)


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Qwickdraw
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6282848 - 12/31/13 07:19 AM

Eddgie,

While I agree that probably not enough energy should have made it past the filter of the edge to cause these " turbulence" consider the possibility that solar heating was occurring on the outside of the OTA and heating up the interior enough to cause these distortions. I would be curious if you could (during the same outside temperatures) perform the same test but put a white towel over the OTA and see if you have the same results.


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Qwickdraw
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #6282858 - 12/31/13 07:34 AM

OK, so I would like to try some solar binoviewing although I am very inexperienced at most things solar. I have an 4.1" Orion Mylar film filter. Is this the same material as the Baader visual solar film ?
If so, my intention would be to mount my AT72ED piggyback on my LX200 or just use my LX200 and step it down with the filter in front. Either way I would then have my Denk Binotron on the back end. Would one of these setups be preferred over another?


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #6283045 - 12/31/13 09:45 AM

Remember, when it is pointed at the sun, no sunlight falls directly on to the OTA. It is completely sheilded by the overhand of the filter itself. The OTA is in fact not receiving any direct sunlight.

Only off axis ambient light is getting to the tube.

Also, it was a cool day, and I kept feeling the tube to see if I could detect any sign that the tube was heating up, and during the whole session, the tube stayed at what felt like ambinent temps (no warmer than the refractor tube).

And that is what puzzled me. I could detect no sign of heating, but the view because far more turbulent in the SCT.

I had the theory that the concentration of energy on the secondary maybe raised the temprature a bit. The solar fielm rejects a lot of energy no doubt, the all of the energy that is being collected concentrates at an f/2 light cone and is intensfied greatly.

Remember, the primary has 45 swuare inches of collection, and all of the enerty is concentrated into the 4 sqaure inches of the secondary (the secondary obstruction is about 5 squre inces in area including the baffle, but the secondary mirror is only about 38mm across!).

It would not seem like enough energy to make a diference at the primary mirror, but squeezing it down to a 38mmm circle at the secondary is in fact a great concentration of what appears as a small amount of enerty into a much larger amount of enerty (per square millimeter).

This is my leading theory. I was getting thermal currentes off of the secondary mirror and they were captured in the secondary mirror baffle because of the nose high attitude of the scope.


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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #6283067 - 12/31/13 09:53 AM

I do not know if the Orion is the same as Baader Film but it does not matter. I think the Baader film is the best filter material out there, but that does not mean other filter materials can't give you a good result.

As for which is better, I guess the one that is easiest to get going for an initial tryout.

It seems like with the fitler you have, you will have to engineer a way to attach it to either scope, so just do the one you think will be easiest to do.

Of course you should try it with both. I think the AT 72 will leave a bit of resolution on the table, and if you use the filter off-axis on the SCT you have a 4.1" unobstructed apeture, which in theory should give you almost the same contrast as I am getting with a 110ED refractor, and that is giving me incredible views.

But it won't happen all at once. You need to be patient and focus on one sunspot at high powers and wait for seeing to let detail snap to focus.


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DsoS4Life
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: PJ Anway]
      #6286824 - 01/02/14 02:16 AM

have the WOs. 5in newt. made a filter out of the baader.
link to the post.
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6264764/page...

1st time doing this solar filter making and viewing..
cost me all of 24 bucks. 5in sq filter was only 18 bucks.. iam thinking of making another for my 12in..
i was blown away with cyclops. i didnt even think of the binos. maybe becuse i had like 3 or 4 mins of view time.. been cloudy.
i will give the WOs with the 20s and the zoomies. this should be sweet as you said ..

Edited by DsoS4Life (01/02/14 02:21 AM)


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George N
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: plav1959]
      #6288509 - 01/02/14 09:13 PM

Quote:

Just wondering what configuration I would have to use with Binotrons? I've got both the Denk OCS 45 and the special Lunt OCS. Will be used with an ES 127 and Baader Herschel wedge. Thanks for any tips you guys can give me.




As others have said, I don't think this will work. I know that my Denk II + ES127ED + Hershel Wedge will not come to focus. Considering that the Hershel Wedge gets hot enough that some units actually smoke until the oil burns off (had this happen with 3 different wedges from both makers) I would think it could cook the glue in the OCS lens, or even crack it.

I had a friend who mistakenly put a ND filter in front of a Lunt wedge on a 6-inch F/12 Astro-Physics refractor and..... *crack*!!! the filter actually cracked.

With my ES127ED I use a Baader solar filter in front of the lens when using a bino-viewer. The view is spectacular, and in some ways better than using a Wedge mono.


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hoes
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: George N]
      #6289090 - 01/03/14 06:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just wondering what configuration I would have to use with Binotrons? I've got both the Denk OCS 45 and the special Lunt OCS. Will be used with an ES 127 and Baader Herschel wedge. Thanks for any tips you guys can give me.




As others have said, I don't think this will work. I know that my Denk II + ES127ED + Hershel Wedge will not come to focus. Considering that the Hershel Wedge gets hot enough that some units actually smoke until the oil burns off (had this happen with 3 different wedges from both makers) I would think it could cook the glue in the OCS lens, or even crack it.

I had a friend who mistakenly put a ND filter in front of a Lunt wedge on a 6-inch F/12 Astro-Physics refractor and..... *crack*!!! the filter actually cracked.

With my ES127ED I use a Baader solar filter in front of the lens when using a bino-viewer. The view is spectacular, and in some ways better than using a Wedge mono.





OK - I'm confused, I would think there would be a big difference between how a filter or wedge (that are designed to reflect, absorb etc the light energy) and how an OCS would respond (designed to transmit the energy)

I would guess that the transmission efficiency of the OTA objective and the OCS are very similar - so about the same amount of energy will be absorbed by both - so why no concern over the objective and major concern over the OCS?

The fact that the light is more concetrated in the OCS should not matter since we are not talking about damaging a lens coating but rather the glue holding the OCS together. Since the amount of energy absorbed is similar, doesn't it come down to how well the OCS or objective can dissipate the heat - which is more dependent on materials used in the construction or geometries involved (the circumference of my OTA objective is roughly 2x that of my OCS - not really that different)

What am I missing?

Steve


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: hoes]
      #6289235 - 01/03/14 09:29 AM

You can use an OCS with a full apeture filter. Almost all of the energy is rejected by the fitler. Only a tiny fraction arrives at any optic placed in the light path.

The wedge does not use any kind of prefilter, so the light cone that converges is at full intensity, and do not make the mistake of thinking that there is not much energy there. There is in fact an enormous amount of energy converging on the wedge.

In fact, look at the design of the Baader wedge. In the wedge only 4% of the enesrgy gets refeclted off the front of the wedge and out of the eyepeice.

The amount that goes through the back hits a perforated ceramic plate and this is where the excess energy is dumpted.

The wedge prism itself gets very hot but it is a single emelment and contains no kind of cementing.

If your OCS contains cement between the elements (common for small doublet lenses) the cement itself could melt out.

Baader is very specific and recommends that no elememts be placed in front of the wedge because they could be damaged by the intense heat.

If you have ever set a peice of paper on fire with even a cheap magnificying glass, you should realize the danger of putting anything in the light cone that was not designed to be there.

But hey, it is your OCS. Have at it.

Let us know if it works.

I personally think it is a bad idea though, and so does Baader.

But we all get to do what we want to do in this life.

Have fun!


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hoes
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6289405 - 01/03/14 11:13 AM

I appreciate the reply Eddgie - I'm just trying to understand a little more deeply why I should not try it. Honestly still does not makes sense to me...

(BTW your posts on this site were invaluable in helping me make the decision to buy a binotron)

So I understand why the wedge gets hot - heck that is its whole purpose -to dissipate the light energy before it gets to the eye.

But the OCS is different - it is further from the focal plane and designed to efficiently transmit the energy - not absorb it. To the extent that the light is concentrated compared with at the objective should not be a factor given it is concentrated on the OCS glass not the glue. The issue is how much energy is absorbed by the OCS glass and coatings (not much?) and then how well it is dissipated.
Again the situation at the OCS does not seem that much different to me than at the objective - is the concern that the heat from the wedge will move to the OCS?

Anyway, another point that confuses me is why is this much different that using a wedge with a Petzval refactor - which some on this site have reported doing successfully?


Regards

Steve


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: hoes]
      #6289719 - 01/03/14 01:47 PM

Well, that is why I am saying maybe it will be OK.

But maybe not. I can only report the caution by Baader.

Also, in the Televue Petzpal scopes the rear element is air spaced, and it is much further ahead of the focal plane than an OCS would be.

Nothing stopping you from trying it though. There is a risk that you might damage the element, but it might work fine.

Try it and see.


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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6289799 - 01/03/14 02:37 PM

My OCS is pretty expensive. For that reason alone I don't even want to take the risk of cooking it.

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Bill Cowles
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Tak North]
      #6289875 - 01/03/14 03:08 PM

Russ at Denkmeir, said no, to placing the OCS in front of a wedge!

Bill


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Daniel Guzas
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Bill Cowles]
      #6290083 - 01/03/14 04:49 PM

Quote:

Russ at Denkmeir, said no, to placing the OCS in front of a wedge!

Bill




Would this ring true for a Lunt ls60 ha scope?? Putting the OCS before the diagonal? Or does the objective of this scope reject enough energy to safely use the OCS here??


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Bill Cowles
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Daniel Guzas]
      #6290174 - 01/03/14 05:55 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

You are correct, there is no problem with the OCS in front of the diagonal.

Bill


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Daniel Guzas
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Bill Cowles]
      #6291653 - 01/04/14 11:47 AM

Quote:

You are correct, there is no problem with the OCS in front of the diagonal.

Bill




Ahh just what I wanted to hear! Thanks!!! Now to save those precious $$ for a LS 60 Ha scope..


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Bill Cowles
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Daniel Guzas]
      #6291716 - 01/04/14 12:15 PM

As good as the LS60 is, it's a whole different world, when used with bino's and once I get a front mounted solar filter for my ES 127, hope to enjoy white light with my bino's.

Bill


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Chopin
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Bill Cowles]
      #6292021 - 01/04/14 02:21 PM Attachment (7 downloads)

I have to say, I finally tried it today (in the middle if it now, in fact). It's pretty darned amazing. AR1944 is just bursting with details right now, so if you ever wanted to see 3-D in white light now is the time to do it. Using an AT72ED/Mylar film, Maxbright/1.7x, Pentax XF12's. The disk is superb at 60x.

Edited by Chopin (01/04/14 02:22 PM)


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Chopin]
      #6293422 - 01/05/14 09:27 AM

Yes, that was my point. I have done solar white light over the years and never "warmed up" to it. The details just never seemed to be all that fine or compelling.

But the first time I put binoviewers on my C5, even with the glass filter, I was rewarded with the best views I had ever gotten.

And since then, I moved to a Baader film fiter, then a 100mm f/9 achro, then to the SV110ED, then to the Baader zOOms, and then to the Baader wedge.

Every change brought a small improvement (except the z00ms, but now I could not imaging solar using anything else because of the ability to quickly react to seeing which can change drastically from minute to minutes) and as amazed as I was when I started, I know feel like I am getting better resolution than most CCD pictures.

Opposite of planets, where the CCDs usually show more. Here, I feel like I am beating the CCD imsages every day.


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Paul G
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #6293507 - 01/05/14 10:19 AM

Quote:

I have an 4.1" Orion Mylar film filter. Is this the same material as the Baader visual solar film ?




No. The Baader film is not mylar.


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Bill Cowles]
      #6293529 - 01/05/14 10:31 AM

I am really looking forward to your result.

The more I do solar in white lighth (though with the wedge and Solar Continuum filter, it is "Green Light), the more amazed I become.

While Ha looks very appealing, there is far more in white light than people realize.

I can go an entire session and not exaust the detail even in a single sunspot (though in an hour session, I might only have 3 to 4 minutes total of good seeing).

There is just so much to see!

I used to think that the detail was mostly in the penumbra (and to be fair, this is where most of it is), but since have learned that there are often details within the umbra.

See my current post on the big filiment arc that I was able to see in AR1944. First time I have seen this particular kind of detail, but now of course I am curious to see if it is more common.

There are light bridges of course, but ther are also sometimes little light islands, and the boundry between the filiments extending into the umbra often has little "Rivers" that creep between them.

It is just spectacular, and it can actually change in the period of an hour!!!

Nothing as dynamic as the sun. Every day it is different and you can watch the sunspots evolve.

I am in fact dying to try it with my 6" APO!


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Qwickdraw
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Paul G]
      #6293560 - 01/05/14 10:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have an 4.1" Orion Mylar film filter. Is this the same material as the Baader visual solar film ?




No. The Baader film is not mylar.




Okay, perhaps my question should have been is the Orion film solar filters the same basic material as the Baader film?


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Paul G
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #6294181 - 01/05/14 03:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I have an 4.1" Orion Mylar film filter. Is this the same material as the Baader visual solar film ?




No. The Baader film is not mylar.




Okay, perhaps my question should have been is the Orion film solar filters the same basic material as the Baader film?




Ha! In the description of the 6" Orion film solar filter on Amazon it says, "Made with high-quality, streak-free and blister-free Baader Astro Solar Safety Film."


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EuropaWill
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6304269 - 01/10/14 01:48 PM

I have to agree with Eddgie 100%.

Monoviewing through my AT106LE shows very little granulation and faculae, but binoviewing completely transforms the surface with granulation seen accross the entire surface and faculae showing up not only towards the sun's limb, but accross the entire surface. Sun spots show striations which look like magnetic patterns.

I have tried a yellow #8 and Orange #21, and despite the orange #21 producing a moment (close to the color seen with HA but none of that type of detail), I haven't seen more detail with the color filters regarding granulation, sunspot detail or faculae. I prefer straight Baader Astrosolar Film.

I also echo Eddgie's strong recommendation with getting a HEAVY cell to put over your scope. I got my Baader Film already mounted in an aluminum cell from Agena. I believe it provides about 70mm clear aperture. That turns my FPL-53 triplet APO from f6.5 to approximately f10. Think about the color correction i'm getting at that aperture! Its very heavy and gives me an extra measure of confidence when using it. Also, before looking through the scope, always look through the filter towards the sun to look for pin holes that may have developed. If you see any pin holes, i would get new Baader film to replace it with.


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contrailmaker
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: EuropaWill]
      #6307050 - 01/11/14 09:04 PM

I have used a full aperture Orion glass filter with my 100ED for years and also the Baader film. The Orion image is not as bright as with the Baader film, which I actually prefer. As with the PST, once the eyes get adjusted to the level of illumination and the color, a lot more detail can be seen. Ultimately, I stopped using the Baader film because it deteriorated too fast for my taste. Your mileage may vary but I use my solar filters a lot. Either way you can not loose. Either filter will give great views of the current solar activity, especially if using a binoviewer.

CM


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Paul G
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: contrailmaker]
      #6308181 - 01/12/14 01:37 PM

I've been using the Baader film since it was first introduced in 1999 and there is no deterioration at all. Can you be more specific?

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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Paul G]
      #6308213 - 01/12/14 01:54 PM

I am actually concerned that the film may deterriorate slightly as well, but I do not have a baseline.

When I bought my filter about 6 months ago, views were superb.

Lately though I have noticed that there is a lot of glow around the sun.

If I hold the filter up to the light, I cannot see any pinholes, but if I have the filter on the scope and look down into the diagonal without an eyepecie in place, there appear to be a very large number of ultra-tiny pinholes.

Not visible when just held up to the sun, but visible at the focal plane when no eyepeice is there.

Again, maybe the fitler was always this way. I don't know, becaues I never checked it when it was new.

But just before I got my wedge, I had indeed become a bit concerned that the performance had fallen off a tiny bit.

I would be interested in knowing why CN thinks his film has degraded as well.

An important edit.

I think the filter is still 100% safe to use. The image is not any brighter than it used to be I don't think, but it seems that the contrast has fallen off very slightly.

I have rinsed the fiter several times, and the filter sits in the sun for hours at a time, and I used it several times a week. So, it has indeed been exposed to UV a lot.

Edited by Eddgie (01/12/14 01:56 PM)


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Philip Levine
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6308417 - 01/12/14 03:31 PM

Eddgie,
Oh yeah....I was able to enjoy some white light observing with a binoviewer this morning, even though the Sun was in and out of thin clouds, and even though the wind gusts impacted tripod/scope steadiness. Quite a collection of sunspots strung along the mid-section of the Sun, and some surface detail - given the less than optimal seeing conditions.
My setup: William Optics 80mm Zenithstar II refractor, Baader Herschel Wedge, Baader Maxbright binoviewer with 1.25x glasspath compensator, and TeleVue 2.5x Powermate. I used two sets of eyepieces for viewing: a pair of University Optics 18mm volcano top orthos, and then tried a pair of TeleVue 13mm Naglers.
(Note for George - I have to use the Powermate in order to achieve focus, without it I do not have enough back-focus)
I did enjoy viewing with the UO eyepieces more than with the Naglers, slightly less magnification made for crisper detail.
Eddgie, thanks for the recommendation to try binoviewers and white light Solar viewing. The conditions today were less than optimal, but still very enjoyable, looking forward to much more time viewing solar white light.
Phil


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Eddgie
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Philip Levine]
      #6308511 - 01/12/14 04:17 PM

I am surprised that you have not done this before! I mean you had all the stuff!

But glad you gave it a try.


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Paul G
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6308624 - 01/12/14 05:07 PM

Pinholes are nothing to worry about.

Still, I've been using mine for ~15 years without any issues. I don't wash mine with water, just puff a little air on it.


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contrailmaker
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Paul G]
      #6308908 - 01/12/14 07:09 PM

Basically I just kept getting more pinholes. For a while I would cover them using a black sharpie but after a few months I decided there were enough holes and some were quite larger than pinhole size. Kind of like a flaking effect. This is all more than 6 years ago but in total I have gone through 3 different sheets of film, some of which I split with friends. Maybe the durability of the film has improved since then.

Now, when the solar activity is high I observe a lot so my filters got a lot of use. I am always very careful with my equipment but I decided to stick to the glass filter which delivers a very acceptable image IMHO and no deteriration so far.

CM

Edited by contrailmaker (01/12/14 07:10 PM)


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Philip Levine
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6309350 - 01/12/14 11:18 PM

Quote:

I am surprised that you have not done this before! I mean you had all the stuff!

But glad you gave it a try.



Eddgie, an unexpected bonus with the Herschel wedge/binoviewer combo is I am able to use higher magnification than with h-alpha bf10-diagonal/binoviewer. The only eyepiece pair that seemed to work for h-alpha setup was a set of 26mm plossls.
I didn't think 26mm would show much sunspot detail, so never tried the binoviewer with the Herschel wedge until recently.
Hence the surprise I could use 18mm and 13mm pairs.
If the Sun cooperates, and gives us more interesting ss activity, I'll be a happy camper.
Phil


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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: contrailmaker]
      #6310067 - 01/13/14 11:29 AM

See, This is interesting to me because this is what I thought was happening to my own solar filter.

I used this thing a lot, and it would sit in the sun for hours.

And now, when I look thought he scope with no eyepeices, the entire filter is covered with microscopic holes!!!

To be fair, I did not try this when the filter was new, but I noticed that the sky was starting to appear bright around the suns limb, when before it seemed much blacker.

And I noticed that granulation seemed to be getting harder to see. At first I thought it might be seeing or other factors, but one day when I had the eyepiece out, I noticed this hughe amount of microscopie holes bleeding light on to the focal plane.

Again, filter does not seem dangerous to use. Is still about the same overall level of brightnes, but I could have sworn that the contrast was starting to degrade slightly.

Perhaps not my imagination after all..


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lbsgville
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: PJ Anway]
      #6315605 - 01/15/14 11:04 PM

Try using an orange filter on the bino corrector with the white light filter in place. I have the Zhumell 25X100 binoculars that have filter threads at the eyepiece. I got another set of filters to view the sun with my homemade white light filters and the orange is the best. Then I tried an orange filter with my binos on my dob with white light filter and love it.

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MAURITS
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/22/09

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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Philip Levine]
      #6315771 - 01/16/14 01:46 AM

Quote:


My setup: William Optics 80mm Zenithstar II refractor, Baader Herschel Wedge, Baader Maxbright binoviewer with 1.25x glasspath compensator, and TeleVue 2.5x Powermate. I used two sets of eyepieces for viewing: a pair of University Optics 18mm volcano top orthos, and then tried a pair of TeleVue 13mm Naglers.

Phil




Can you use a binoviewer with a Herschel Wedge for white light observing?

I can't do this with the Lunt wedge .......


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R Botero
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: MAURITS]
      #6315833 - 01/16/14 03:39 AM

Maurits
Yes, it can be done. Eddgie has a very recent thread in this forum. You may run out of back focus but with the right adapters and perhaps using a Barlow or GWK you can do it. I enjoy it very much.
Roberto


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MAURITS
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/22/09

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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: R Botero]
      #6315858 - 01/16/14 04:50 AM

Thanks Roberto.

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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: MAURITS]
      #6318247 - 01/17/14 10:16 AM

I am using the Baader wedge with my Mark Vs and it works great!

You need about the same in-travel as you would need for a 2" diagonal, and of course you can shorten this by about 25mm if you attach the binoviewer directly to the top using a Blue Fireball SCT to T2 adapter. (T-07).

But the view in white light with the wedge has been fantastic.

I am using the Solar Continuum filter. At first I did not like it, but the more I use it the more amazing it is.

The granulation shows up better with the SC filter than I have ever seen it, and because the granulation is so pronounced, facula stand out superbly.

Also, I think that lighy detail in the umbra of sunspots is sharper, but not quite as much. A bridge will appear a bit wider with the ND fiters stacked, but it will appear thinner and sharper with the SC. And the ends of the filimients I think are sharper in the SC.

I honestly don't know if this is becasue the contrast is better, or because you are screening out a lot of data (the SC is a very norrow band pass filter).

But the more I use the wedge with the SC filter, the more impressed I am. In fact, I have come to rather like the green color.. LOL

Of course there are other choices for wedge at a fraction of the cost, but I have to say that the Baader is a fisrt class peiec of gear.

I depbated getting Ha, but honestly there is so much amazing detail in white light that I can observe for an hour and not exaust it all...

I do not know how seeing affects Ha, btu it is my biggest obstacle. I have to observe for an hour to get maybe 2 or 3 minutes of high res views. Worth it though.


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Paul G
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6318392 - 01/17/14 11:23 AM

Eddgie, If you like what you're seeing in white light, Ha will blow you away.

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Philip Levine
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6319464 - 01/17/14 09:09 PM

Quote:



I depbated getting Ha, but honestly there is so much amazing detail in white light that I can observe for an hour and not exaust it all...

I do not know how seeing affects Ha, btu it is my biggest obstacle. I have to observe for an hour to get maybe 2 or 3 minutes of high res views. Worth it though.




Eddgie, knowing your love of binoviewing, if you eventually go the h-alpha route, the blocking filter/diagonal might be problematic when adding a binoviewer. When I add a binoviewer to my setup, a TV Pronto with 60mm Coronado Solarmax II and blocking filter/diagonal (BF10), it puts a lot of stress on the BF10. The BF10 is somewhat small and the diagonal tube is made of delrin, I believe. I am not familiar with the Lunt blocking filter/diagonal, but I'm sure you will research the options.
Phil


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MAURITS
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/22/09

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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6319903 - 01/18/14 05:44 AM

Thanks Eddgie, I try it with the Lunt wedge soon ...

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scholastic sledgehammer


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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: MAURITS]
      #6334534 - 01/25/14 11:02 AM

Eddgie, why do you use the "Baader Wedge" instead of the "Lunt Wedge"?

Is it personel choice or do you have an other reasen?

You wrote:

You need about the same in-travel as you would need for a 2" diagonal, and of course you can shorten this by about 25mm if you attach the binoviewer directly to the top using a Blue Fireball SCT to T2 adapter. (T-07).

Eddgie do you mean Baader part # T-06 instead (T-07)?

Is it possible to post a pic with the "Baader Wedge and the Mark V" combination so that I can see how it is stacked ....

I think I buy the Baader Wedge too... becauce the possibility to change the adapters!


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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: MAURITS]
      #6334667 - 01/25/14 12:01 PM Attachment (3 downloads)

Well, first it was on my wish list and I got it as a gift.

I like Baader equipment and have been very pleased with it in the past.

The Baader wedge is very easily adaptable to binoviwers and I would rather mount the Bino directly to the top of the unit than use a 2" eyepeice nose and put it into a regular 2" diagonal.

Even though my refractor is bino-ready and in-travel is not an issue, I prefer the much lower moment arm when the binoviewer is attached directly to the body.

With the Lunt, perhaps I could have removed the eyepeice holder and had some adapter made, but that was not necessary with the Baader.

The Baader comes with the really superb Solar Continuum filter. At first I did not like this filter, but after comparing to the ND, I have come to value the superb result that you get on granulation, which as it turns out adds far more to the experience than I realized. When the Granulation stands out more, the facula also stand out more.

I love the built in finder.

And while I don't use it, the Baader comes standard with a SCT thread compatible 2" Baader Clicklock Eyepiece holder.

Again, I don't use it for the wedge, but I suppose I could use it on my SCT if I wanted to in place of a standard visual back (though that scope is configured with a 10mm connector and T2 Prism and now is only used for binoviewing really...

So, lots of small reasons.

To be fair, for my own use, I wish there were a less expensive option that deleted the Clicklock eyepeice holder and took $100 of the price.

But I love the Baader and performance has been spectacular.

I am going to try Ha.. I have a PST on the way. But there is sooooo much detial with the wedge that I can't see myself loosing interest in white (green) light viewing. So for me, I think these will be complimentry scopes.

Now I just need to find a way to mount the PST side by side to the 110ED in a way that I can keep the eyepeice pointed up...

Edited by Eddgie (01/25/14 12:33 PM)


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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: MAURITS]
      #6334698 - 01/25/14 12:18 PM Attachment (3 downloads)

Missed a part.

The T-07 is a Blue Fireball part that is the same as the Baader T2-27. It uses SCT on the outside, M 48 on the inside, and T2 above.

This is used to connect the binoviewer to the top of the Wedge.

It is not needed if using just a 2" eyepeice or a binviewer with a 2" nose.

To use it, the provided barrel is removed.

This harrel has SCT threads on the outside and on one end, M48.

The ND and Solar Continuum go on the threaded end and this is screwed into the top of the wedge, and the Clicklock is screwed to the top.

With the T-07, the ND and SC are mounted in the bottom, it is then screwed into place with the SCT threads, and the BV Quick COnnect ring is attached to the top.

Very short profile.

Only problem is that a normal ND filter will not work. As it turns out, the Baader ND filters are very slighlty smaller in diameter and clear the SCT threads while not all ND filters will do this.

So, works great with the Baader ND and SC, but not with an aftermarket ND (though some others may work).

Picture shows left to right shows the quick connect ring (not needed for Bino Vue or Maxbright) the T-07 (much the same as the Baader T2-27 except about half the price) with the ND 3 and SC.

You can see the SCT thread just below the securing ring. This threads into the top of the BV. The black ring at the top is threaded on the inside for SCT threads.



Edited by Eddgie (01/25/14 12:22 PM)


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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Philip Levine]
      #6334743 - 01/25/14 12:42 PM

Quote:

Eddgie, knowing your love of binoviewing, if you eventually go the h-alpha route, the blocking filter/diagonal might be problematic when adding a binoviewer.




Yes, I am seeing this as a challange but I know others have made this work, usually by modifying the scopes, and I can't say what specific mode I am intending because of terms of service apparently, but my selection of the PST over the 35mm Lunt were based on modifications that I have seen to the PST.

Again, I cannot apparently discuss specific mods, but there are a number of web pages where people have found way to use binoviewers with Ha scopes.

I might still have gone to the 35, but availability is apparently always an issue.

I have read a few reviews pitting the 35 against the PST, and so far, I do not think it is conclusive. Some reviewers said the PST was about the same as the Lunt 35, some said the Lunt 35 was better, and in several PST reviews, it seems as if people believe that performance of the model can be variable.

But most of those reviews are old, and I am hoping that improvements to the design and hopfully more focus on quality has improved the model.

Clearly based on the numbers that people had to return, one would think that Meade would realize that it is in the end less expensive to get the quality right on the assembly line than it is to pay shipping back and forth to deal with a defect. That has to oblierate the profit on the model.

Is supposed to arrive next week, so I will get my first Ha then.

I might buy the Denk adapter for the PST in the meantime. I have a pair of Denk IIs that would be great for this.


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MAURITS
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/22/09

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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6334938 - 01/25/14 01:53 PM

Thanks so much Eddgie for the clear explanation and the pics....

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MAURITS
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/22/09

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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: MAURITS]
      #6335121 - 01/25/14 03:38 PM

Eddgie, the Baader Herschel Safety Wedge incorporates a permanently pre-installed ND=3.0 filter in the wedge housing!

Can I use this ND 3.0 filter, or do I need an other Baarder type ND 3.0 ?

On the option list there is only "one" 2" type ND 3.0 filter: BA2458332, or is this the same as the pre-installed in the Wedge?


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George N
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: MAURITS]
      #6335236 - 01/25/14 04:38 PM

While I love using my Denk II (and an older original Denk) for white light solar, when it comes to a PST (or Lunt 35), the 'best' solution is one of Howie Glatter's gizmo's to hold two of them as a true binocular. It is enough better to justify the expense ($500+ for the gizmo, plus 2nd PST or L35). I'd rather go 'true binocular' at 40mm than mono at 60mm. When going with a bigger h-alpha rig, like the 90mm and larger, the bino-viewer is the only way to go.

For low power white light views I just put film filters on my 20x80 binoculars.

Edited by George N (01/25/14 04:41 PM)


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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: MAURITS]
      #6335364 - 01/25/14 05:42 PM

Well, the filter is not really "permanently" installed and yes, this is the one specified in the "Included list and it comes pre-installed.

You can see it in the picture and it unscrews easily, but Baader has a caution on just about every page of the manual that says the 3.0 is supposed to always be used, and of course the image is far to bright to use the wedge without it.

The Visual model is the same mechanically as the Photo-Visual model, but the Photo Visual model comes with three ND filters, and the visual only model only comes with the 3.0 and the Solar Continuum filter.

If you don't think you would like the green light of the SC, it may be better to buy the PV model because then you get two extra ND filters so you can pick the one you want to use in addition to the 3.0. And I think you need either the SC or an extra ND because with just the 3.0, the image is really kind of bright. Not painfully bright, but I think brighter than is comfortable.

Also, the Baader fitlers are apparently a bit smaller than most ND filters. I bought a Lumicon and it would not fit though the hole with the SCT threads.

Initially I did not like the Solar Continuum, but after using it and comparing it to using a second ND filter, I have to say, the SC filter really does do a fantastic job. The more I use it, the more impressed I am.

Today I had a thin haze, so transparency was not great, but as sometimes is the case, seeing was almost perfect.

And WOW! The detail within the umbra of two sunspots was very crisp and clean. As it turns out, sunspots are not just black spots.. Larger ones almost always have detail visible inside and today there was a lot.

And the filaments in the prenumbra of these spots was like it was laser etched. Once of the best prenumbra views I have had since binoviewing the sun.

And the SC shows granulation like noting else. I never thought that granulation had much detail but aa it turns out, there is a lot of structhre and super-fine detail in the granulation with little tiny pores often found well away from the Active Regions.

I know that Ha is different, but I swear that I can't process all of the detail I can see visually in white (green) light. It is just amazing.

I know the baader is expensive, but I am totally thrilled with mine, but again, the compatibility with T2 made it more appealing to me, and the Solar Continuum has been surprisnly rewarding to use.


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MAURITS
scholastic sledgehammer


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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6335955 - 01/26/14 02:14 AM

Thanks Eddgie, it's clear now ...

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slack
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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6335993 - 01/26/14 03:37 AM

Quote:

Initially I did not like the Solar Continuum, but after using it and comparing it to using a second ND filter, I have to say, the SC filter really does do a fantastic job. The more I use it, the more impressed I am.

...And the SC shows granulation like noting else...




If you have a 56 or 58 filter, have you compared one of those to the Baader Solar Continuum filter? It seems that many find them comparable, with some reports even favoring the regular Wratten filters. I have not yet tried the Solar Continuum, but do sometimes use a 56 with Baader film (I'm more into HA solar).


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Re: Binoviewer and solar white light - DO THIS!!!! new [Re: slack]
      #6336308 - 01/26/14 10:21 AM

Sorry, but I have nut tried these others. I think the the main difference is that the SC is s true narrow band filter, so perhaps is is a bit "Tighter" ad sharpening the features it excels at.

Just using the NDs, I think light islands in umbra are a bit bigger and brighter, but in the SC, they are sharper.

This would indicate that some energy is being removed.

But the remaining energy is apparently tuned to the wavelength that gives these features the most sharpness???

I don't know, but while some detail are not as pronounced (light islands), the finest detail is improved. Filimients in the penumbra of sunspots and granulation are outstanding.

The ends of the filimiets that exetend into the umbra look smooter and more uniform in lenght with ND, but in the SC, the umbra/penumbra borders are highly detailed, and ligt bridges are super will defined, often showing structure themselves (two land bridge, or two lanes half way across going to one lane).

I am looking forward to Ha though, but I love white light so much.

One of the primary reasons for goiing to Ha though is as twe pass though the tail end of the solar maximum, active regions will become less common and less interesting, while solar flares I think are still pretty common, though less intense.

And I do like very much the portable nature of the PST for quick looks.

And yes, I though about binocular PST.

But I need to just try it before I do anything else. I have so many questions that I just need to answer for myself by using one.

Hopefully should arrive Tuesday or Wednesday, but I think there is rain in the forecast...


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