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mtnmedic
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Reged: 11/09/04

Loc: Antelope, Oregon
Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital
      #3901839 - 07/04/10 07:43 AM

Hi,

I'm a lifelong amateur astronomer and a big fan of the much-beloved Burnham's Celestial Handbook. What a treasure trove of information and great reading! I bought it when it first came out and I continue to read it this very day.

I've looked everywhere for an electronic copy of this fabulous book, in any format. Sadly, nothing of the sort seems to exist. Like several other books and references, I have wanted to put Burnham's Celestial Handbook onto my ebook reader and now my iPad, which I use in conjunction with my telescopes.

Because I haven't found anything, I'm engaging a project to put the Handbook into electronic format; PDF, epub and/or otherwise. However, this is copyrighted material and I know, being the owner of copyrighted materials, there are legalities involved. I would love nothing more than to publish and sell this as an ebook, from which proceeds could sent to the Burnham family, a charity or group closely associated with Robert. For me, it would be a labor of love, a celebration of the man, his life and his works.

I think a digital edition of the Handbook would be very popular, especially in this day of notebooks, laptops, e-readers and iPads. But how to go about implementing it into the publishing circles? I thought to contact someone who has current ownership of the copyright to this material to see if I could get the okay to conduct such a project and market it accordingly.

Another thing that I have thought about is that I remember hearing about Brian Skiff, of Lowell Observatory, and his work to update the Handbook, which he undertook back in 1996. I haven't heard anything of this project since. I can only fathom to guess such a venture to be overwhelming, if not daunting. I personally think the Handbook, as we all know it-with all of its imperfections-is just fine as it is. And rightfully so; it's literally a work of art. Therefore, going forward in my project, I would just be doing a straight transition of the material into digital form, without attempting any updates to the written material. Perhaps I could update some of the photos.

I'd like to get some input from folks here regarding this. Any leads for information, tips, suggestions, comments concerns and so forth would be most appreciated.

Sometimes I pick up one of the volumes and flip the pages, thinking..."My God...what am I getting myself into?"

Then I look at the very first page before the title page and preface of Volume Three, which contains a photo of the night sky framed by the dark silhouettes of tall trees accompanied by the following passage:

"O Night, sweet through sombre space of time...
All things find rest upon their journey's end-
Our cares thou canst to quietude sublime;
For dews and darkness are of peace the friend."
-Michelangelo.


Indeed.

Edited by mtnmedic (07/04/10 07:48 AM)


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Reverie
sage


Reged: 03/27/08

Loc: Somewhere far far away
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #3901877 - 07/04/10 08:24 AM

I can find only electronic copy via google books. It is the only way for me to have a look to the book.

I have no idea why the book never been reprinted after late 1970s, making the books almost unavailable or unknown to many people.

As the book is so legendary any reprint will surely become the best-selling of the decade. I can think only that the copyright issue is too complex making any new edition impossible.


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mtnmedic
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Reged: 11/09/04

Loc: Antelope, Oregon
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Reverie]
      #3901905 - 07/04/10 08:50 AM

I agree with your observation regarding the stature of the book. It is my dream to bring it back to light so that people can fall in love with it all over again and others can discover it.

I'm going to have to look this up via google books to see what you found. I was able to find it as a rapidshare download in PDF format but it turned out to be image scans of the book, binding and all. Therefore, the quality was not that great and certainly nothing that was searchable, indexable or comfortable for long-period reading.

I wrote to Dover (the publisher) explaining my project and expressing my thoughts. Hopefully, I can get somewhere with them on it.

Edited by mtnmedic (07/04/10 08:51 AM)


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BobinKy
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #3902032 - 07/04/10 10:38 AM

Guys...

Reading a digital copy of Burnham's Celestial Handbook is like eating a digital photograph of a nice steak. Just not the same.


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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #3902133 - 07/04/10 11:52 AM

Maybe not a bad idea. Dover owns the rights, though, and as you suppose would have to agree.

Mssr. Skiff gave up on updating _Burnham's_ quite some time back due to a variety of reasons, most involving the publisher, I recall.

Me? I don't think it needs updating any more than _The Friendly Stars_ does.


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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Reverie]
      #3902139 - 07/04/10 11:55 AM

Quote:

I can find only electronic copy via google books. It is the only way for me to have a look to the book.

I have no idea why the book never been reprinted after late 1970s, making the books almost unavailable or unknown to many people.

As the book is so legendary any reprint will surely become the best-selling of the decade. I can think only that the copyright issue is too complex making any new edition impossible.




Not the case. Burnham's is in print and easily available from Amazon.com.


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Crusader
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #3902151 - 07/04/10 12:03 PM

Quote:

Not the case. Burnham's is in print and easily available from Amazon.com.




Yes, it's definitely still available. I bought the 3 volume set about a month ago. Brand new in paperback. It wasn't from Amazon, and if I remember correctly each volume was about $19 or so.


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helpwanted
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Crusader]
      #3902209 - 07/04/10 12:37 PM

i've seen brand new perfect condition hardbacks in used book stores for $10 each... pleanty to be found.

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blb
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Reverie]
      #3902211 - 07/04/10 12:39 PM

Quote:

I have no idea why the book never been reprinted after late 1970s, making the books almost unavailable or unknown to many people.




Evidently it is still in print. They keep a set on the shelves at our Borders Book store. It is also available from Amazon.

Buddy


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BobinKy
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #3902242 - 07/04/10 12:59 PM

I have been thinking of your willingness to do something to create a digital update to Burnham's Celestial Handbook. Perhaps developing a digital index would be something you might like to attempt. Another classic observing guide that could use an index is Chet Raymo's 365 Starry Nights.

. . .

Is anybody familiar with the issues (copyright and otherwise) of developing and publishing a digital file of an index for a book in print?


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bkruschwitz
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #3902712 - 07/04/10 06:34 PM

Michael,

According to the copyright page of Burnham's Celestial Handbooks, Dover Publications did not own the copyright, Mr. Burnham did. (The original version of the handbook was self-published.)

As I understand the 1976 Copyright law, because Burnham's 1966 copyright was in its first term (i.e., had not been extended yet) when he filed an extension in 1978, his copyright will last for 67 years beyond 1978 (i.e., until 2045).

Mr. Burnham died in 1993. The copyright might have been part of his estate, and it would take some detective work to locate the executor of the copyright now. Perhaps Dover Publications knows who controls the copyright, but I doubt it; Dover does not need to know, because they must have had a contract with Mr. Burnham permitting them to publish the handbook.

Nevertheless, I would start by sending an email to Dover asking if their contract with Mr. Burhnam gave them exclusive rights to publish the handbook in the U.S. If it did not and Dover has non-exclusive rights, then you might locate and get permission from the current executor of the Burnham estate to do an ebook publication.

Best wishes and good luck on this!
Bob


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Reverie
sage


Reged: 03/27/08

Loc: Somewhere far far away
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #3903153 - 07/04/10 11:20 PM

Quote:


Not the case. Burnham's is in print and easily available from Amazon.com.




I was told that the book was no longer in print and recently a reputable stargazer passed away, leaving 3 volumes and were sold at $56.5.

Anyway the shipping fee must be very high.


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Crusader
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Reged: 08/14/05

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Reverie]
      #3903472 - 07/05/10 05:39 AM

The $19 I paid per book included free shipping.

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Reverie
sage


Reged: 03/27/08

Loc: Somewhere far far away
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Crusader]
      #3903485 - 07/05/10 06:24 AM

Quote:

The $19 I paid per book included free shipping.




I know there is free shipping for those living in US and Canada. I don't know there is free shipping for those living in Hong Kong, Taiwan, China.


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Crusader
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Reged: 08/14/05

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Reverie]
      #3903522 - 07/05/10 07:30 AM

Reverie, I ordered mine from www.bookdepository.com They offer free shipping worldwide. Their prices are slightly more expensive than Amazon, but once you add the shipping costs they are much cheaper.

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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: bkruschwitz]
      #3903618 - 07/05/10 09:30 AM

Quote:

Michael,

According to the copyright page of Burnham's Celestial Handbooks, Dover Publications did not own the copyright,




You'd have to research it to be sure, but I am under the _impression_ Burnham relinquished his rights. I know for sure he took many advances on royalties when he fell on hard times (nothing wrong with that).


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WOBentley
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #3903796 - 07/05/10 11:27 AM

If you do get this off the ground I'd be interested in it, especially in the e-pub format...
Love reading the hard copies, but it would be fun to take this with me to star parites etc. on my e-book (I own the "Nook" version)and much more "packing space friendly"


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mtnmedic
Late for dinner
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Reged: 11/09/04

Loc: Antelope, Oregon
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: BobinKy]
      #3904053 - 07/05/10 01:44 PM

Quote:

Guys...

Reading a digital copy of Burnham's Celestial Handbook is like eating a digital photograph of a nice steak. Just not the same.




True, but thats really the same for reading ANY great classic in electronic format. But let's face it, ebooks ARE a wave of the future (paper books will be around for a very, very long time...just not as many, I would suspect. I LOVE my iPad but I'll always have a few favourite books around).

In today's world, ACCESSIBILITY is the key in getting people to consume media. Ebooks are a but only another means of access to literature and creative works. I'd rather someone read an ebook than NO book at all. By this, I see the possibility that Burnham's Celestial Handbook could once again see the light of day and get exposure to a whole new generation of readers who are interested in astronomy that have ebook readers and iPads.

This book is for the ages and we can all agree it's a timeless classic that deserves reading, even if we have to tear the pages out and tack them up onto a bulletin board.


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mtnmedic
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Loc: Antelope, Oregon
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: BobinKy]
      #3904056 - 07/05/10 01:45 PM

Quote:

I have been thinking of your willingness to do something to create a digital update to Burnham's Celestial Handbook. Perhaps developing a digital index would be something you might like to attempt. Another classic observing guide that could use an index is Chet Raymo's 365 Starry Nights.

. . .

Is anybody familiar with the issues (copyright and otherwise) of developing and publishing a digital file of an index for a book in print?




That's something I'm certainly considering.


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mtnmedic
Late for dinner
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Reged: 11/09/04

Loc: Antelope, Oregon
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: bkruschwitz]
      #3904065 - 07/05/10 01:49 PM

Quote:

Michael,

According to the copyright page of Burnham's Celestial Handbooks, Dover Publications did not own the copyright, Mr. Burnham did. (The original version of the handbook was self-published.)

As I understand the 1976 Copyright law, because Burnham's 1966 copyright was in its first term (i.e., had not been extended yet) when he filed an extension in 1978, his copyright will last for 67 years beyond 1978 (i.e., until 2045).

Mr. Burnham died in 1993. The copyright might have been part of his estate, and it would take some detective work to locate the executor of the copyright now. Perhaps Dover Publications knows who controls the copyright, but I doubt it; Dover does not need to know, because they must have had a contract with Mr. Burnham permitting them to publish the handbook.

Nevertheless, I would start by sending an email to Dover asking if their contract with Mr. Burhnam gave them exclusive rights to publish the handbook in the U.S. If it did not and Dover has non-exclusive rights, then you might locate and get permission from the current executor of the Burnham estate to do an ebook publication.

Best wishes and good luck on this!
Bob




2045, eh? Well, I'll be 89 then. Still gives me some time.

I've already started the detective work, so to speak. And I've already written to Dover. Hopefully, we'll see something come from that. While the work I am doing on it is time-consuming, methinks the hard part will certainly be this bit in copyright and publishing.


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mtnmedic
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Loc: Antelope, Oregon
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: WOBentley]
      #3904068 - 07/05/10 01:50 PM

Quote:

If you do get this off the ground I'd be interested in it, especially in the e-pub format...
Love reading the hard copies, but it would be fun to take this with me to star parites etc. on my e-book (I own the "Nook" version)and much more "packing space friendly"




I'm with you there. I'm leaning toward ePub (mainly for most ebook readers and the iPad) and PDF (mostly for computers) formats.


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mtnmedic
Late for dinner
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Reged: 11/09/04

Loc: Antelope, Oregon
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #3904117 - 07/05/10 02:22 PM

For anyone looking to obtain Burnham's Celestial Handbook in its original hardback edition, particularly those of you who live in northern California (I live in the heart of the Gold Rush country myself) Trinity County Library in Weaverville, CA has it listed in their book sale page:

Library Book Sales-Complete Listing from Friends of Trinity County Library

It's the 6th entry from the top on this page. Item #004 with a link to buy it from them. According to the entry, it seems the volumes are in very good condition. Some details are provided.


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burb scope
sage
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Reged: 04/18/08

Loc: Canton, MI
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #3911470 - 07/09/10 11:40 AM Attachment (97 downloads)

I scanned my 3-volume set of BCH into 3 PDF files. They total 1.9 + Gigabytes.
Each PDF is searchable, but some of the typesetting was a little crude, and the OCR routines didn't pick up everything.
I do not consider this a copyright violation because It is a digital backup copy of the volumes that I purchased, and I have never sold a copy of it.
I toyed with the idea of charging someone to do the same service on their volumes. Since I have to cut the pages apart to get the best scanning results, I didn't think that anyone would want to do that. However, the resulting digital media is searchable, is nice to work with, and you can look at the maps, diagrams, and text at the telescope with your laptop.
I bookmarked each constellation, and their lists of double and variable stars, as well as the lists of clusters, galaxies, nebula and descriptive notes. See an example screen of a search for M 8:


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mtnmedic
Late for dinner
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Reged: 11/09/04

Loc: Antelope, Oregon
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #3911612 - 07/09/10 01:00 PM

Quote:

I scanned my 3-volume set of BCH into 3 PDF files. They total 1.9 + Gigabytes.
Each PDF is searchable, but some of the typesetting was a little crude, and the OCR routines didn't pick up everything.
I do not consider this a copyright violation because It is a digital backup copy of the volumes that I purchased, and I have never sold a copy of it.
I toyed with the idea of charging someone to do the same service on their volumes. Since I have to cut the pages apart to get the best scanning results, I didn't think that anyone would want to do that. However, the resulting digital media is searchable, is nice to work with, and you can look at the maps, diagrams, and text at the telescope with your laptop.
I bookmarked each constellation, and their lists of double and variable stars, as well as the lists of clusters, galaxies, nebula and descriptive notes. See an example screen of a search for M 8:




Ah! Very nice! As I mentioned in my original and earlier posts, I considered making a PDF version as well as the ePub version I'm working on now. Guess I don't need to worry about that now. I figured for certain someone would've already done that, but only because he/she was brave enough to tear a copy of the book apart to do it.

The goal behind my project is to make it as beautiful and versatile as any eBook or iBook (as my primary thought was to get it onto the iPad) out there. The commitment requires that I at least make the minor corrections needed, such as for type spacing issues, spelling and punctuation, make some graphs/charts bigger as well as update some photos with sharper, color images except for those that really need to be black-and-white with respect to their historical significance. Obviously, indexing and searching are a must in any ePub document. THe big part is the formatting. Updating the information itself is a daunting task and I would preface the volume with a note for the reader to defer to more recent publications to get accurate data.

Again, very nicely done!


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burb scope
sage
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Reged: 04/18/08

Loc: Canton, MI
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #3911690 - 07/09/10 01:44 PM

An interesting way to update the work would be to insert links to updated information. For example, many of Burnham's binary star orbit diagrams stop before 1990, so it would be nice to see the original diagram and then be able to click on a link to be shown a current diagram.
The DSO photos were of limited quality, so yes it would be nice to link to better versions. I think that it would be important to preserve the original content, and look and feel of BCH, but allow access to updated info as unobtrusively as possible.
Having said that though, I would still like to see BCH in its original format available in a digital format.
I would be happy to GIVE my PDF copies to Dover Press if they would make it available at a reasonable price, and if they donate a portion of the proceeds to the Robert Burnham Jr. Memorial Project:
http://www.eastvalleyastronomy.org/rbjm.htm
Perhaps a CN member or two with publishing clout could help get the ball rolling on this.


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desertstars

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #3911789 - 07/09/10 02:32 PM

It would be a good idea, before anyone goes further, to read the copyright page in one of the books and see if it lists which rights are reserved. If electronic reproduction rights are listed, you're dead in the water.

If nothing is that specific (but do watch for the phrase "including but not exclusively" or some variation on a theme) you really need to contact Dover before making anything available publicly. If I understand these things correctly, you could be considered in violation of copyright if what you are doing can be seen as preventing the sale of the copies produced by the publisher.


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mtnmedic
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Reged: 11/09/04

Loc: Antelope, Oregon
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: desertstars]
      #3911808 - 07/09/10 02:48 PM

Quote:

It would be a good idea, before anyone goes further, to read the copyright page in one of the books and see if it lists which rights are reserved. If electronic reproduction rights are listed, you're dead in the water.

If nothing is that specific (but do watch for the phrase "including but not exclusively" or some variation on a theme) you really need to contact Dover before making anything available publicly. If I understand these things correctly, you could be considered in violation of copyright if what you are doing can be seen as preventing the sale of the copies produced by the publisher.




Understood. Actually, that was brought up earlier. I am in dialog with Dover and awaiting definitive answers. The copyright page states "Copyright 1966, 1978. All rights reserved under Pan American and International Copyright Conventions." No other language is present. Interestingly, all of that pre-dates electronic media (i.e., ebooks, PDF, etc.), which was, in that day, not much more than a bit of sci-fi fantasy.


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mtnmedic
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Reged: 11/09/04

Loc: Antelope, Oregon
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #3911812 - 07/09/10 02:49 PM

@ desertstars: I love your sig:

"It's bad news when you start to hear voices. It's much worse when they tell you it's a private conversation."

My all-time favourite bumper sticker:

"You're just jealous because the voices talk to me."

I may put that up as my sig instead...


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burb scope
sage
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Reged: 04/18/08

Loc: Canton, MI
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #3911817 - 07/09/10 02:51 PM

And hey, I'm just using an electronic version of the texts that I purchased and still own.

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rmollise
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Reged: 07/06/07

Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #3911991 - 07/09/10 04:40 PM

Quote:

And hey, I'm just using an electronic version of the texts that I purchased and still own.




For which there should be absolutely no problem. Otherwise...there will be as long as it is in copyright.


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Tom Polakis
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #3917049 - 07/12/10 02:15 PM

Quote:

I would be happy to GIVE my PDF copies to Dover Press if they would make it available at a reasonable price, and if they donate a portion of the proceeds to the Robert Burnham Jr. Memorial Project:
http://www.eastvalleyastronomy.org/rbjm.htm






The Robert Burnham Jr. Memorial Project is (thankfully) closed to further donations, with a nice plaque on Mars Hill and the remaining funds given as a scholarship to a Prescott High School student who will pursue astronomy at Northern Arizona University. I know all this because my wife Jennifer was the director of the project.

I admire your effort to make the PDF of the handbooks, and sure wish there was some way for you to distribute them.

Tom


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burb scope
sage
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Reged: 04/18/08

Loc: Canton, MI
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Tom Polakis]
      #3917147 - 07/12/10 02:50 PM

Thanks for that update Tom.
Perhaps Dover will be receptive to distributing an electronic version.


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JayinUT
I'm not Sleepy
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #3917185 - 07/12/10 03:09 PM

I said this via PM and will state this here. I think it would be helpful if in the contacts with Dover that an individual or group could show that there are people committed to paying for an electronic version. I for one am, and would commit my money to a company for a pre-order to that commitment.

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mtnmedic
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Reged: 11/09/04

Loc: Antelope, Oregon
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: JayinUT]
      #3917203 - 07/12/10 03:18 PM

Quote:

I said this via PM and will state this here. I think it would be helpful if in the contacts with Dover that an individual or group could show that there are people committed to paying for an electronic version. I for one am, and would commit my money to a company for a pre-order to that commitment.




I brought that up in my dialog with Dover. I'm waiting for their Rights and Permissions department to get back to me with some more answers regarding my project. Cross your fingers.


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burb scope
sage
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Reged: 04/18/08

Loc: Canton, MI
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: JayinUT]
      #3917222 - 07/12/10 03:23 PM

Thanks Jay.
As I said in my PM back to you, I wonder if Dover would consider revitalizing their BCH sales by including an electronic version along with each book that they sell. Those of you who don't want to buy the books again could perhaps send in some sort of "proof of purchase" of the books to allow you to purchase the electronic version at a discount.
As I posted earlier, perhaps someone here on CN with publishing experience would be better equipped to convince Dover to consider this.


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burb scope
sage
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Reged: 04/18/08

Loc: Canton, MI
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #3918683 - 07/13/10 10:03 AM

Wow. Thanks for the leagle-eagle work on this. Please press onward.

Wouldn't it be great if the estate could/would be able to grant permission to distribute the work? It would spread like wildfire. Burnham would get a lot of well-deserved exposure to new people in this digital age who might not be inclined to go out and purchase 1200 plus pages of paper.


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Thomas Pfleger
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #3918800 - 07/13/10 11:13 AM

Quote:

...who might not be inclined to go out and purchase 1200 plus pages of paper.




--> Even 2200+


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burb scope
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Reged: 04/18/08

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Thomas Pfleger]
      #3918928 - 07/13/10 12:12 PM

Oops. 2285 (includes covers)

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burb scope
sage
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4001598 - 08/23/10 03:32 PM

Michael - Has Dover Press responded to you in ANY way?

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mtnmedic
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #4001650 - 08/23/10 03:52 PM

This is the last official correspondence I got from them, dated almost exactly one month ago:


Dear Michael,
I wanted to get back to you to let you know that your request is under advisement.

Sincerely,
Joann Schwendemann


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Joann Schwendemann
Contracts/Rights & Permissions
Dover Publications, Inc.
31 East 2nd Street
Mineola, NY 11501
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


I did outline to them what I felt would be the many benefits of publishing the BHCH in digital format with emphasis on marketing their brand.

Edited by mtnmedic (08/23/10 03:56 PM)


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cbwerner
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Reged: 08/27/05

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4001920 - 08/23/10 06:04 PM

Man, I'd love to have this book digitally. Add my voice to the chorus.

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mtnmedic
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4001937 - 08/23/10 06:11 PM

I think what everybody should do is write to Dover and tell them how you feel about a potential digital edition of the BCH. Let them know there is demand for such a thing. You can also, if you'd like, reference me and my request to publish my project through them. It really doesn't matter if it's me or anyone else who gets the job done, so long as Dover sees the value of bringing BCH back to life in digital format so everyone can enjoy it.

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burb scope
sage
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Reged: 04/18/08

Loc: Canton, MI
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4001965 - 08/23/10 06:23 PM

Great idea. Let Dover hear many voices on this, not just one or two.

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danmdak
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Reged: 10/03/07

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4005365 - 08/25/10 01:12 PM

Ah yes, Burnhams. Love the book. Never will forget the day I walked up to the 6th floor of the library of Youngstown State University and found the 3 volume set there, back in 1978. I quickly checked out all 3, then later on saved up and bought softcover versions. Since then I found the hardcover version in a used book store and bought the 3 volume set for $10. I am like others here...have no use for a digital version. It does need updating though...mostly in the descriptions of current theories, and in the double star orbit diagrams. As a side note, I think it is almost a crime as to what the "professional" astronomy writers did to Burnham himself after he wrote his epic work (ie: ignored him, etc.) He would often hang out in front of the Lowell observatory where he once worked and just watch the people walk by, in full obscurity to the astronomers that came and went...sad...the full story need to be written by someone and I do not wish to hijack this thread anyway.
In any case I agree tho that a digital version would help re-popularize this book and hope you follow through with this. Someone owns the copyright and that is the first thing I would find out.


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Traveler
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Reged: 08/19/07

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4012659 - 08/29/10 05:22 AM

Great idea!

I just wrote Dover to ask for an electronic version. I hope more people will follow this.


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Lard Greystoke
sage


Reged: 07/27/08

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: danmdak]
      #4014187 - 08/29/10 10:11 PM

Quote:

As a side note, I think it is almost a crime as to what the "professional" astronomy writers did to Burnham himself after he wrote his epic work (ie: ignored him, etc.) He would often hang out in front of the Lowell observatory where he once worked and just watch the people walk by, in full obscurity to the astronomers that came and went...sad...the full story need to be written by someone and I do not wish to hijack this thread anyway.




Actually I think a good part of the story has been written. My take is that the only person who hurt Burnham was Burnham. He was an unusual person who went out of his way to not help himself. I recall a letter he wrote to Sky & Telescope in which he definitely felt unappreciated; the letter is rather sad. But writing one letter is not enough; you have to package your talents and knock on doors. I don't think his personality allowed him to do that. I don't think he could help it. He'd really have been better off in some sheltered environment like a monastery.


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danmdak
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Lard Greystoke]
      #4015219 - 08/30/10 12:45 PM

Must respectfully disagree. Burnham shouldn't have to knock on doors. He wrote THE premier observing guide. 40 years (!) after he did this it is still the number one observing book in a lot of peoples opinion. S&T should have been knocking on HIS door. But S&T of the mid 1980s and especially the 1990's wasnt like that, I know from personal experience. Since his name wasnt one of the "good old boys" ink wasnt wasted on him. Ask yourself this, if Cloudy Nights forum was around then, would we even be discussing this? Probably not, he would be on this forum and we would be raving about his book. Back when he published it, the only "forum" was S&T and Astronomy Magazine. Neither one came through in my opinion.
This is also why I love the idea of getting it digitized and updated. As mentioned before, I dont like digital books but know I am in the minority here. His book available to the masses in digital form would be wonderful. Really hope this goes thru. Would I buy it....maybe if it was the only way to get an updated version. I would hope though that if it was updated then a hard copy edition that I could use would come out.


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burb scope
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: danmdak]
      #4015415 - 08/30/10 01:59 PM

Mtnmedic - What address & department at Dover did you correspond with?
We should have a consistent point of contact at Dover to send or requests to.
I am considering sending them my digitized copy so that they can see that 95% of the work is already done. I would allow for at least 5% for polishing & correcting my possible mistakes. Having a viable product handed to them for nothing may help move things along.


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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: danmdak]
      #4015818 - 08/30/10 05:17 PM

Quote:

Ask yourself this, if Cloudy Nights forum was around then, would we even be discussing this? Probably not, he would be on this forum




I doubt it. He might have _wanted_ to be on this forum, but I do not think he could have managed it. He was a brilliant man in many ways, but also a troubled man who did not know how to help himself and found it very difficult to allow others to help him.

His book lives on, though, and I believe it will continue to live on, just as the books of Admiral Smyth and Reverend Webb do.


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burb scope
sage
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #4015993 - 08/30/10 06:36 PM

In tribute to Burnham, I would prefer that his original work be published digitaly, as-is.

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Rick Woods
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: danmdak]
      #4016038 - 08/30/10 06:56 PM

Quote:

Back when he published it, the only "forum" was S&T and Astronomy Magazine. Neither one came through in my opinion.



What do you think they should have done? They reviewed the books very favorably; what else could they do? He wasn't the "Robert Burnham. Jr." back then, he was just a guy with a book.


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mtnmedic
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #4016253 - 08/30/10 08:35 PM

Well, there's no way any of us could know exactly what happened, why it happened or what could have been, regardless of whether he was THE Robert Burnham, Jr. or just some guy with another book. I would venture to say that none of us here really KNEW Bob like those closest to him did, especially during his last years. Who's to say what his level of participation would have been in a forum such as this? Some people LOVE to communicate and share like we do. Some of those people find on-line discussion and communication to be time-wasteful and lacking in personal interaction. Some don't even like computers. To each his own.

What happened between Bob and S&T is water under the bridge. Things were different back then. None of us can really say for sure why he didn't receive as much press as he could have. I agree, however, he should have gotten more recognition and appreciation for his works. Maybe nobody back then realised just how monumental the BCH really was.

Should he have had to "knock on doors"? Maybe...maybe not. Any book writer will tell you that aggressive marketing of your talents in the highly competitive world of paper book publishing-just as with any other business-is the cornerstone of success and even more frustration. It's difficult enough to do with today's technology, let alone with how things were done 40-50 years ago. Some of it has to do with timing and who you know. Like a lot of people, I don't think wrangling with the business of publishing was something that he savored. It can be very tough going. That might have played a role in any reluctance he may have had regarding going out and "knocking on doors." Especially back then when paper books were, essentially, the ONLY viable money-making format for reading.

In any event, I think we can all agree Bob was a good man, that he had some personal problems later on in life and that his works are, above all, a testament to his brilliance and his passion for this thing we love so much called astronomy. It's sad how he ended up but his legacy supersedes all.

My hope is to have his book published digitally (mostly epub and other popular formats to fit the iPad and other dedicated book readers, etc.) so that it can be re-discovered and enjoyed by lots of people. That would be the biggest tribute to the man.

Personally, I'm with the camp that would prefer to publish it as-is, with only a few modest changes like perhaps adding links or a reference section linking to updated information (scientific and statistical data), updating a few of the photos to color (for a little pizazz, leaving the B&W ones of historical significance in place), maybe correcting some typographical erros, etc. Fully updating this book-all three volumes-to the modern standards that some people might desire would be a terribly daunting task. I read somewhere that someone was attempting to do this almost 20 or so years ago and nothing more came of it. I mean, how do you update Michelangelo's painting of the Sistene Chapel? Clean off some of the dust, fix a few cracks, put some better lighting on it? Sure, I can do that. Otherwise, it's best left alone to let the art speak for itself.


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Lard Greystoke
sage


Reged: 07/27/08

Loc: Ohio
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4016403 - 08/30/10 09:48 PM

Quote:

Fully updating this book-all three volumes-to the modern standards that some people might desire would be a terribly daunting task...I mean, how do you update Michelangelo's painting of the Sistene Chapel? Clean off some of the dust, fix a few cracks, put some better lighting on it?




I think some parts of the work are more akin to Michelangelo than others. The strength of the book is the way Burnham introduces the brighter stars and DSO's as if they were friends. The description of the Coma Cluster goes through the appearance and mechanics of the system itself through the role of Berenice in mythology and coinage. The section on M13 veers into a detailed account of the evolution of globular clusters. The breadth of knowledge and depth of enthusiasm are unrivaled.

However the book has some weaknesses for observers not blessed with nostalgia, and these weaknesses will only become more apparent as the old fogies wither away. The tabular information for DSO's was never much use and is now superceded by other sources. The pictures range from okay to awful. I'm not sure how many young enthusiasts with access to Hubble images and online databases are going to be stimulated by these out-of-date aspects. Plus the southern constellations are poorly covered. I'm wondering if I would even take the effort to reproduce the tabular information and photos as-is.

My wishful thinking would be to have the book completely updated with southern constellations, up-to-date photos and current science by an author with equal breadth and passion. To my knowledge there is none such currently available.


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Doug Reilly
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Lard Greystoke]
      #4016772 - 08/31/10 12:55 AM

I've read what I could find about Burnham's life and like any life it seems to have been a complicated one. Was he wronged? It seems so, at least by some. Was he helped? A lot of people tried? Was he brilliant? I'd say so. Troubled? That too. The outcome was sad. But he is vindicated by the love that pours out in these forums for his work. That, and the proper motion studies he worked tirelessly on for years, are his legacy. It's not a bad one.

I found the little stone monument to him far more affecting than the big marble thing Lowell built for himself on Mars Hill. He was the quintessential lonely astronomer.


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burb scope
sage
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Reged: 04/18/08

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Doug Reilly]
      #4017049 - 08/31/10 05:46 AM

Did you photograph the little stone monument? That would be interesting for the rest of us to see.

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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #4017169 - 08/31/10 07:57 AM

Quote:

In tribute to Burnham, I would prefer that his original work be published digitaly, as-is.




I agree. If you want current astronomical knowledge, there are plenty of places to get that. If you want more objects, there are observing guides today that go far beyond Burnham. You read BCH for its author's imaginative, aesthetic take on the Universe.

Digital BCH? I suppose that would be nice. Particularly a Kindle or iPad edition. I don't suppose I really need it, though. For me, Burnham's is not a book I use at the telescope. If I want to run through "his" objects, lists of them have been made for the major planning programs like Skytools. The books themselves? I crack them open on a stormy winter's eve and just read--what Robert Burnham had to say about the Universe.

I'm sorry his life was such a mess. It just doesn't seem fair that such an obviously brilliant person could end so badly. If only he'd made plans for what would happen after the project at Lowell ended... If only he hadn't pegged all his hopes for financial success on the book...

There was an even smaller market for astronomy books then than now; BCH got plenty of notice--including even the original self-published "chapters"--but there is just no way you are going to reap the financial rewards he seemed to expect in our small field. Especially such a specialized book unlikely to appeal to the general reader. Burnham's book actually sold very well. But in a small amateur astronomy sort of way. As good as the book was, there was no way it was gonna sell like Mickey Spillane.

Alas, there is no way to change the "if onlies" now. Best thing to do is enjoy his remarkable work and raise a toast to his shade every once in a while.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #4017822 - 08/31/10 02:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

In tribute to Burnham, I would prefer that his original work be published digitaly, as-is.




I agree. If you want current astronomical knowledge, there are plenty of places to get that. If you want more objects, there are observing guides today that go far beyond Burnham. You read BCH for its author's imaginative, aesthetic take on the Universe.




Rod,
Thank you. That's exactly how I feel - don't gild the lily.

Actually, I think it was Dover who rear-ended Burnham by making his book a low cost incentive to join book clubs. I confess I got my hardcopy set for $5 that way (but I bought two softback sets at full price, so I feel a little better about it).

Burnham's is perfect the way it is, archaic typewriter font and all. I'd hate to see a single thing about it change.


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burb scope
sage
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #4017981 - 08/31/10 03:35 PM

I spent some time "updating" a test copy of my digital BCH .pdf, and here are some arguments AGAINST doing it.
First of all, whose information are you going to use to update BCH? After all, I started by Googling Alpha Andromedae and received "about 4,730" results. After playing around for a while, I settled on adding a link to the Wikipedia entry. Wikipedia has entries for (probably) most of the objects in BCH, but what should I use as a second choice if I find an object NOT in Wikipedia? By the way, a lot of people think that the data in Wikipedia is flawed, so should I use something else? The ADVANTAGE of adding the Wikipedia link was that the Wikipedia entry has links to many other trusted sources like SIMBAD, etc.
See the dilemma? Also, what if Wikipedia (or any other source I choose) changes such that the links become broken/out of date? I'm sure not going to want to go back and test/update all of the web links from Alpha Andromedae through NGC6940 in Vulpecula.
However, anyone with software that allows you to modify .pdf documents may well want to update your own purchased copy (assuming that Dover delivers it in that format).
Knock yourself out. Me? I wimped out at Alpheratz.


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Lard Greystoke
sage


Reged: 07/27/08

Loc: Ohio
Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #4018351 - 08/31/10 06:32 PM

Quote:

Actually, I think it was Dover who rear-ended Burnham by making his book a low cost incentive to join book clubs.




But Dover couldn't rear-end Burnham without rear-ending Dover. Dover is still in business, so I don't think they've made too many money-losing propositions. I think it's more likely that they had more copies of the book than they could sell at full price and tried to get what they could out of it.

Speaking of money, what is the market for a digital version? It's one thing to do this as a library service for the benefit of mankind. But if there's money involved there needs to be a return on investment. Is the digital version just going to be a duplicate medium for people who already have or can get the print version, or is it really intended for a new audience with its mix of excellent writing, mediocre illustrations and outdated information?

Regarding the difficulty of upgrading Burnham, it shows the incredible amount of work he put into it and how hard that is to duplicate even today with the internet. Of course he had access to the Lowell resources (and it wouldn't surprise me if he did a lot of his own work on Lowell time, which may explain why they weren't as supportive of him as some of us would like).


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Doug Reilly
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Lard Greystoke]
      #4021906 - 09/02/10 11:46 AM

LG--
I don't think there's any reason to believe Burham was stealing time from his other duties at Lowell. By all accounts he did excellent work there and when the proper motion studies ended, so did the funding for his salary. I don't think the "professional" astronomers at Lowell were supportive of his work because they dismissed it as an amateur endeavor. Again, the problems of Burhnam were complex.

Here's the monument to him on Mars Hill. The photograph of him makes me sad. http://www.flickr.com/photos/xenar/3795428543/in/set-72157621840373809/

Edited by Doug Reilly (09/02/10 11:49 AM)


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burb scope
sage
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Doug Reilly]
      #4022004 - 09/02/10 12:38 PM

Doug - May I have your permission to add that photo (and credit it to you) into my digital copy of BCH, which may or may not ever be distributed by Dover?

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burb scope
sage
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #4022121 - 09/02/10 01:28 PM

The raindrops on the monument are rather poignant.

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Doug Reilly
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #4022246 - 09/02/10 02:15 PM

Absolutely. I should have that listed as a creative commons image, but I haven't been keeping up with those settings. You can attribute to Doug Reilly (xenar on flickr)

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burb scope
sage
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Doug Reilly]
      #4022419 - 09/02/10 03:22 PM

Doug - Much appreciated!

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Traveler
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/19/07

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Doug Reilly]
      #4025901 - 09/04/10 11:01 AM

Thanks for sharing the photo here, Doug!

Edited by Traveler (09/04/10 11:02 AM)


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GeneT
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4028641 - 09/05/10 09:06 PM

I'm looking at my hardback volumes now. This great work has helped and inspired me for many years.

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GeneT
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Doug Reilly]
      #4028643 - 09/05/10 09:08 PM

Quote:

I've read what I could find about Burnham's life and like any life it seems to have been a complicated one. Was he wronged? It seems so, at least by some. Was he helped? A lot of people tried? Was he brilliant? I'd say so. Troubled? That too. The outcome was sad. But he is vindicated by the love that pours out in these forums for his work. That, and the proper motion studies he worked tirelessly on for years, are his legacy. It's not a bad one.



No--his legacy is a great one!


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Doug Reilly
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: GeneT]
      #4031278 - 09/07/10 09:39 AM

gtown1,
I agree, I was just understating in my last line there.

This is the about the best article I could find on Burnham, it's been posted on CN before but I'll repeat it, it's well worth the read and I think it does his story some justice:

http://cometography.com/biographies/burnhamr.html


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jrbarnett
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: BobinKy]
      #4034747 - 09/08/10 07:38 PM

A digital index for a published work should be fine so long as you don't reproduce a commercially relevant amount of material from the work. Copying mere chapter titles and creating single-work page references shouldn't be a problem any more than is creating a bibliography referencing portions of a work cited in another work.

However, Burnham's is well organized by constellation, so as long as you know what constellation your target resides in, it's pretty easy to find the text related to that target. I'm not certain a digital index would be all that useful as a result.

Regards,

Jim


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jrbarnett
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: bkruschwitz]
      #4034816 - 09/08/10 08:08 PM

The copyright page might not, for example, indicate whether or not the author subsequently assigned the copyright to Dover. Also, it's not uncommon for the publisher to register the copyright in the author's name, but contractually have perpetual, global publishing and adaptation rights to the work.

It's true that the copyright comes into existence in the work at the moment it is fixed in a tangible medium, and with a few exceptions, that copyright is owned initially by the author (the exceptions being creation of a work under a work-for-hire contract or creation by an employee in the course and scope of their employment).

From that point forward, however, the copyright is a property right that can be alienated (sold, encumbered, licensed exclusively, etc.) by the author/owner.

problem is, Dover's agreement with Burnham is a private contract. Only Dover knows exactly what it provided. It might be possible for the estate to obtain a copy of the publishing agreement from Dover, but for you or me to do so would be unlikely.

Lastly, there's a much higher probability that adaptation of the work for one's own, personal use, and not for resale or distribution to others, might constitute a "fair use" of the copyrighted work. The "fair use" doctrine acts as an exception to the copyright owner's rights to limit copying and adaptation of the work.

Regards,

Jim


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turtle86
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Doug Reilly]
      #4035227 - 09/08/10 11:28 PM

Doug, thanks so much for sharing this. My wife and I spent a bit of time at Lowell Observatory last fall, and I somehow overlooked this. Very poignant...

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Matthew Ota
Hmmm


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #4037069 - 09/09/10 06:43 PM

If your PDF files is legible, I would contact the publisher/copyright holder to see if they would be interested in buying the rights to it and selling it.

However, the most difficult problem would be updating the 1950s era coordinates up to date with the 2000 coordinates.

As for ebooks it is still to early to proclaim that they are better than good old fashioned bound ones. as they need to be standardized first.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Matthew Ota]
      #4037197 - 09/09/10 07:48 PM

Quote:

However, the most difficult problem would be updating the 1950s era coordinates up to date with the 2000 coordinates.



Not necessary. The difference between 1950 and 2000 coordinates just isn't that great. The first edition of U2000 has a feature that allows you to pinpoint objects by 1950 coordinates. It's always a very small shift.


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deSitter
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #4052838 - 09/16/10 07:36 PM

You've done something I've often contemplated. I bought a second copy to go under the knife, as it were. But I changed my mind - because what is really needed is a complete update to this work, one that will have the editor disappear into the long shadow of Burnham, other than to revise coordinates and provide a "living errata" section where double star parameters and the like could be revised. I've thought about this for years and have the time to do this right - who would I talk to at Dover to perhaps get a project underway?

-drl


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deSitter
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Matthew Ota]
      #4052858 - 09/16/10 07:48 PM

Quote:

If your PDF files is legible, I would contact the publisher/copyright holder to see if they would be interested in buying the rights to it and selling it.

However, the most difficult problem would be updating the 1950s era coordinates up to date with the 2000 coordinates.

As for ebooks it is still to early to proclaim that they are better than good old fashioned bound ones. as they need to be standardized first.




Because the Dover edition has superbly sharp printing, simple OCA and automatic conversion should be possible to bulk-update all the coordinates listed.

The differences between "then" and "now" are significant enough to cause issues at the eyepiece - I would like to use my Autostar to locate the faint doubles without having recourse to a computer. Finding a dim double in 1950 coordinates without Hipparcos or Tycho cross-referencing, can be a real task, particularly in a crowded star field.

-drl


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Rick Woods
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: deSitter]
      #4052988 - 09/16/10 08:45 PM

Quote:

who would I talk to at Dover to perhaps get a project underway?




You need to ask someone at Dover that question.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #4059248 - 09/19/10 05:54 PM

wow...all these posts since my last one...no notifications of any. Need to check something...

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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4067270 - 09/23/10 01:51 AM

This is a thoughtful thread to the greatest works BCH. At one period I did think about supporting the idea of having the book digital and perhaps it should for those who wish to compress it, but when i still think about it, I'd still rather hold the books in my hand and read them as I still do today and have for the past 15 years. I now have four complete sets, two sets hardbound and two sets soft bound. Most heart filled books of astronomy ever produced.

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burb scope
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #4067411 - 09/23/10 05:54 AM

I don't think that coordinate conversions are necessary.
If you are reading the .PDF on a computer, then you should be able to change to another screen running a precession program to update the coordinates. Likewise, if you want to see a better photo of M64, change to another screen and web search to your heart's content.
I am still in favor of an unaltered digital copy of the original work.


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jedimasterk
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4079884 - 09/29/10 02:47 AM

A Kindle edition would be really nice.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: jedimasterk]
      #4080989 - 09/29/10 03:55 PM

Quote:

A Kindle edition would be really nice.




That was in fact the very first thing I looked for when I got my Kindle a couple of weeks ago.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4107629 - 10/11/10 01:35 PM

I'm late to the party, I know. I just got through reading Tony Ortega's 1997 article about Burnham in the Phoenix New Times News.

I'm not going to say anything negative about the publisher, but had Burnham not been cremated, I'm sure he would be turning over in his grave at the thought of you dealing with them.

The executor of his estate is his sister Viola Burnham of Phoenix. You can find her in 411.com. According to Ortega's article, she's gone round and round with Dover over the Handbook and might be a better place to start.

Just a suggestion.

I've had the Handbook since 1979 or so, dusted it off recently, and committed to reading it cover to cover again. What a remarkable work it was and still is. I found this thread by doing a CN search for threads about it.

Start with his family. They are the ones who have an interest in his memory.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rdandrea]
      #4108199 - 10/11/10 05:17 PM

Quote:

I'm late to the party, I know. I just got through reading Tony Ortega's 1997 article about Burnham in the Phoenix New Times News.

I'm not going to say anything negative about the publisher, but had Burnham not been cremated, I'm sure he would be turning over in his grave at the thought of you dealing with them.






If there is any 'blame' to be assigned, there's enough for both parties.


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rdandrea
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #4108669 - 10/11/10 08:35 PM

I knew neither Burnham nor the publisher. I have no blame for anyone.

Just suggesting a different tack for the OP.

Did you have a beef with Burnham?


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Traveler
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rdandrea]
      #4109257 - 10/12/10 01:35 AM

Does anyone get response from Dover pub.? I wrote them 6 weeks agoo and don't get anything from them...

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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rdandrea]
      #4109498 - 10/12/10 07:46 AM

Quote:

I knew neither Burnham nor the publisher. I have no blame for anyone.

Just suggesting a different tack for the OP.

Did you have a beef with Burnham?




I don't have a "beef" with anybody...well...maybe Five Guys...

Burnham was a remarkable individual, but there are two sides to every story, and there was more to this one than was in the newspaper story you read.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #4110003 - 10/12/10 12:16 PM

Quote:

I don't have a "beef" with anybody...well...maybe Five Guys...




Tsk! And they speak so highly of you!

Quote:

Burnham was a remarkable individual, but there are two sides to every story, and there was more to this one than was in the newspaper story you read.




Yup, there always is.


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Charles B.
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #4110114 - 10/12/10 12:52 PM

Quote:

Burnham was a remarkable individual, but there are two sides to every story, and there was more to this one than was in the newspaper story you read.




I know this is somewhat off-topic, but the last few posts got me thinking about the Celestial Handbook. I love Burnham's Celestial Handbook and can't imagine any amateur astronomer not wearing out multiple copies with continual reading and re-reading. I think this is a pretty commonly shared sentiment.

Sometimes, when we love a book, we build a picture of the author based solely on our feelings about his book. Needless to say this picture is always wildly different from the real, complicated, flesh and blood person who was the author. This seems particularly true of my own constructed picture of Robert Burnham.

There's no doubt that Burnham lead a difficult, troubled, tragic life and at the same time produced a remarkable work in the Celestial Handbook. I think the strength of his work is seen in the passions it evokes in any discussion about it. (Like those in the last few posts.)

I have no idea how Burnham's personal life might have influenced him in writing the Celestial Handbook, but as a reader I am continually thankful to his talent and dedication. It's a rare thing for any author to create a work so closely read with both heart and mind by so many and so diverse a group of readers.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Charles B.]
      #4110381 - 10/12/10 02:33 PM

Yes. The Handbook is his testament and legacy. He should be remembered and revered for what he did, not for any personal tragedies or failings he may have had.

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burb scope
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #4110425 - 10/12/10 02:51 PM

My desire is to get Burnham's work into the hands of as many people as possible, and a digital version would help to do that.
I will GIVE Dover my digitized copy. I just need to know what proper channels to go through. i would just hope that they would/could distribute it at a reasonable price.
If it is OK for us to make digital backup copies of the books that we bought, then maybe I will have to do that for those who want it.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #4110486 - 10/12/10 03:20 PM

Making a copy isn't what will get you into trouble. Distributing copies, on the other hand (in any format), could put you into a deep hole very quickly. Unless Dover actually responds favorably to the idea, any reproduction and distribution of Burnham's (even given away for free) could land you in court over a copyright violation.

And stating an interest in doing so on an open forum... thats really not a good idea at all.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: desertstars]
      #4110672 - 10/12/10 04:41 PM

As the OP of this thread, I need to say a few things.

1) Let's put aside all of this banter about what happened between Robert, Dover, and other astronomers, etc. None of us were actually there when things went down so none of us are qualified to speak about it in any real measure. There are disagreements here in that vein and that's not what I wanted to happen here in this thread. So I'm asking everyone to refrain from further debate about Mr. Burnham and his faults vs. Dover vs. other astronoers, etc. There is no longer any "blame" or "fault". All of that stuff happend a LONG time ago, so it's water under the bridge, where it should remain. That discussion does not serve the original purpose of this thread: discussion about moving forward with a digital edition in a LEGAL and permitted fashion and with regard to features of the intended finished product.

2) In answer to everyone's question: No, I haven't heard anything back from Dover's Legal and Permissions Department for a while. They said they were considering my request and the points I made for going forward with the project. They also said they were backlogged but that may also be another way of brushing me off. I don't know.

3) I'm sure that nobody would have anything against someone making a digital copy of the book for THEIR OWN PERSONAL USE. It's more or less along the same line of legality as making a photocopy of pages for a research project or making a backup copy of computer software, both of which you purchased legally. Tom is right, it's DISTRIBUTING the copies without proper permission that would lead to legal issues. SO...I do not condone the practice and would urge anyone thinking of doing it to reconsider. The last thing I want is for someone to bring about bad news and legal problems that would put a cloud over our celebration of Robert and his works and-even worse-further prevent us from our goal of getting it distributed in electronic format for everyone to enjoy. I started my project to HONOR the man and, hopefully, expose the Handbook to a new generation of readers so more people could appreciate the devotion and work he put into it.

4) I am pursuing other avenues to see if my digital workup of this book can be legally processed. I will keep everyone informed of my progress.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4163125 - 11/04/10 01:26 PM

2018 will be the 40th anniversary of the Handbook. (We just missed the 30th)

It would be nice to see an anniversary edition with biographical notes, anecdotes from his contemporaries, corrections and updates to the coordinates/data, and some bonus extras (perhaps some of his astrophotos).

In the meantime, the old hardcovers stand up well and better convey a feel for the man (and his times) than a digitized version would do. I am an old school bibliophile and I love a good book, but I also can see the attraction of a digital version with updated data that could be used in the field on an iPad-type device with red screen.


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okieav8rAdministrator
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4163898 - 11/04/10 07:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I scanned my 3-volume set of BCH into 3 PDF files. They total 1.9 + Gigabytes.
Each PDF is searchable, but some of the typesetting was a little crude, and the OCR routines didn't pick up everything.
I do not consider this a copyright violation because It is a digital backup copy of the volumes that I purchased, and I have never sold a copy of it.
I toyed with the idea of charging someone to do the same service on their volumes. Since I have to cut the pages apart to get the best scanning results, I didn't think that anyone would want to do that. However, the resulting digital media is searchable, is nice to work with, and you can look at the maps, diagrams, and text at the telescope with your laptop.
I bookmarked each constellation, and their lists of double and variable stars, as well as the lists of clusters, galaxies, nebula and descriptive notes. See an example screen of a search for M 8:




Ah! Very nice! As I mentioned in my original and earlier posts, I considered making a PDF version as well as the ePub version I'm working on now. Guess I don't need to worry about that now. I figured for certain someone would've already done that, but only because he/she was brave enough to tear a copy of the book apart to do it.

The goal behind my project is to make it as beautiful and versatile as any eBook or iBook (as my primary thought was to get it onto the iPad) out there. The commitment requires that I at least make the minor corrections needed, such as for type spacing issues, spelling and punctuation, make some graphs/charts bigger as well as update some photos with sharper, color images except for those that really need to be black-and-white with respect to their historical significance. Obviously, indexing and searching are a must in any ePub document. THe big part is the formatting. Updating the information itself is a daunting task and I would preface the volume with a note for the reader to defer to more recent publications to get accurate data.

Again, very nicely done!




Burnham's Celestial Handbook is a true gem that has given me a lot of enjoyment. I would love to see the print version of BCH updated with new illustrations, layout, and corrections. In a similar vein, George Kepple and Glen Sanner have updated the photos in their Night Sky Observer's Guide (yet another jewel!) with digital astrophotos and it is really nice.

On edit, I've read a lot of posts in this thread that speak of Burnham's troubled life. I really don't much about Robert Burnham from a biographical standpoint and would like to know more if someone can point me in the right direction.

Again, I would love to see this book brought up to date for the new millenium. I would also like to see biographical information. Digital is great for those who like digital books, but I'm old school and they just don't do it for me. I would love to see a print version also.

Edited by okieav8r (11/04/10 10:16 PM)


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Ira
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: okieav8r]
      #4164338 - 11/04/10 10:19 PM

You can just bet that the last thing Dover Publishing wants is someone mucking around with the digital publishing of one of their properties (assuming it is...and if it isn't they don't want you to know that.) With the beating that traditional media compnies are taking from the Internet, piracy, etc., they just want you to go away. You will never hear back from them.

/Ira


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burb scope
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Ira]
      #4275980 - 12/28/10 10:05 AM Attachment (68 downloads)

As a test, I had a friend load my PDF version of BCH volume 1 onto his Kindle.


Edited by burb scope (12/28/10 10:07 AM)


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burb scope
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #4275985 - 12/28/10 10:09 AM Attachment (56 downloads)

Kindle pic 2

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burb scope
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #4275988 - 12/28/10 10:10 AM Attachment (60 downloads)

Kindle pic 3

The three pictures were taken by a cellphone. Sorry.

I was impressed at how well the Kindle displayed the PDFs, and how well the astrophotos looked.

Edited by burb scope (12/28/10 11:01 AM)


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Spaced
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #4276636 - 12/28/10 04:19 PM

Lovely, indeed; also vewy, vewy tiny.

A user can set up the Kindle to view sideways, then enlarge the font, but that results in the need to scroll around to see everything on a page, which is a bother.

I've never tried to view anything on one of the larger format Kindles. I think that would work OK.


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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Spaced]
      #4333317 - 01/22/11 11:47 PM

I went back and read through this thread and got to thinking it has some of the most incredibly smart and well thought responses. I am going to go through it some more but the reason burnham came up is I am currently unable to acquire any astronomy related books at the moment and im about losing my mind. i wish i had at least brought one volume of burnham's. I attempted to download it onto a computer but am having trouble opening it from ebooks. what software will open it?

Edited by Daniel Mounsey (01/22/11 11:49 PM)


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burb scope
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #4333680 - 01/23/11 06:48 AM

I HIGHLY doubt that an ebook edition exists. Exactly where did you try to download it from? Please provide the link.

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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #4335213 - 01/23/11 07:12 PM

Thanks. Maybe it's because this sight isn't ebooks but something like ebooks?

Edited by desertstars (01/24/11 09:20 AM)


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UmaDog
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #4335794 - 01/23/11 11:44 PM

The previous poster is correct in saying that a non-searchable PDF of the handbook is floating around on the net. It's a rar archive that needs unpacking, which is why the previous poster couldn't read it. Unrar utilities are common and free, don't let anyone sucker you into paying for one.

The way I see it if you own a print copy, which I do, then it's fine to download this. It is, of course, a bootleg.


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Tom Polakis
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #4335805 - 01/23/11 11:53 PM

Quote:

Thanks. Maybe it's because this sight isn't ebooks but something like ebooks?





Whoa! Somebody has already done a good scan of Burnham's into a PDF document. Wasn't this thread about the lack of such a product?

Since I'm a bit uncertain about legality, I'm going to let the moderators decide if they want to delete my post. I went to the site that Daniel mentioned, and clicked on the "Download from Hotfile" link, which brings you to the three volumes in .rar archive format. Each volume is about 100 Mb, and they take a long time to download from that site. I got a trial version of WinRAR, which extracted the PDF.

The Hotfile site requires you to wait 30 minutes between downloads in an attempt to get you to upgrade to premium, with high-speed downloads.

So I'm currently flipping through a decently scanned Volume 1. Quite frankly, I don't feel any shame about the free download, but you can let your conscience be your guide.

Tom

Edited by desertstars (01/24/11 09:22 AM)


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Tom Polakis]
      #4335894 - 01/24/11 01:39 AM

Thank you gentleman,
I waited 3 hours to download Vol one. I was not aware that it may be an unofficial copy. The internet connection from my current location is a bit slow unfortunately. I will try to use a software link provided after the install to open one from an official site. Thanks again.


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burb scope
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #4336054 - 01/24/11 05:59 AM

Sorry to have doubted you Dan.

I support the idea of having a digital "backup copy" of material that you have legally purchased, but Dover owns the rights to the material and they won't get a dime from any shady download site.
If you download and use the digital version then I would suggest that you pick up a used set of the books.


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burb scope
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #4336224 - 01/24/11 09:03 AM

Granted, Dover won't get a dime out of your used purchase either, but you will be on more stable legal ground.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #4336255 - 01/24/11 09:24 AM

That site has almost certainly pirated the books, so I've removed the link until I hear back from Dover regarding its legitimacy. If the downloads exist with the permission of the publisher, I'll restore the link.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: desertstars]
      #4337784 - 01/24/11 08:15 PM

Tom,
Thank you for removing it.


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desertstars

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #4337924 - 01/24/11 09:10 PM



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core
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Spaced]
      #4338481 - 01/25/11 03:32 AM Attachment (43 downloads)

Well this is what it looks like on the original Kindle DX right next to the hard copy; bear in mind photo is taken indoor at night, high ISO, image noise - in reality it's actually quite good. (the new DX is suppose to have better screen contrast, fwiw)

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core
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: core]
      #4338482 - 01/25/11 03:34 AM Attachment (43 downloads)

Close up of paper copy.

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core
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: core]
      #4338484 - 01/25/11 03:37 AM Attachment (42 downloads)

And close up of DX screen (fyi both close up are on the same image scale); I've got several copies of the BCH, and would pounce on the chance to buy a text-searchable ebook version in an instant. I'll try and take another comparison pic on other e-readers later on.

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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: core]
      #4338604 - 01/25/11 07:05 AM

Peter,
Thanks for sharing this. It's the only page I can read from BCH since I wont be able to see a copy for another 2 weeks. Quality looks fine.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #4339626 - 01/25/11 03:56 PM

Quote:

2) No, I haven't heard anything back from Dover's Legal and Permissions Department for a while. They said they were considering my request and the points I made for going forward with the project.




in these situations a phone conversation is often the best step. put a human wrapper around it. but unless you provided them with a very explicit proposal with much of the cost and revenue projections included, it's a waste of their time to bother with it.

dover knows pretty well how many copies it sells of BCH or any other title. it already knows about epublishing, ebooks, pdfs, and so forth. if there were an opportunity there, they'd be incented to recognize it.

why wouldn't they recognize it? perhaps because the revenue base of most publishers is fragile. many of them have publishing down to a mass manufacturing process, everything standardized and streamlined front to back. it's not profitable to do a one off. they'd probably need to see a profit opportunity across dozens or hundreds of titles. my guess is, they don't: and if they do, they'll have amazon.com do it for them. though the first challenge would be, scanning all those murky photographs.

Quote:

4) I am pursuing other avenues to see if my digital workup of this book can be legally processed. I will keep everyone informed of my progress.




you already know it's not really *your* electronic copy. as soon as it leaves your hands -- in whatever form, for free, for charity, for humanity, whatever -- you've impinged on the publisher's rights and necessarily need the publisher's permission.

i've always looked askance at the fetishizing of burnham's books ... but the sentiment to "reincarnate" him in one form or another seems bizarre and a bit macabre.


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drollere
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #4339770 - 01/25/11 04:50 PM

Quote:

Thanks for sharing this. It's the only page I can read from BCH since I wont be able to see a copy for another 2 weeks. Quality looks fine.




???

Burnham's volume 1, brand new, in stock


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: drollere]
      #4340679 - 01/26/11 12:43 AM

One thing it's easy for everyone to do is to go to the BCH Amazon page and click "I'd like to read this on Kindle."

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burb scope
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: UmaDog]
      #4340921 - 01/26/11 07:30 AM

Great idea!
I went and did just that, and saw that you can click on "LOOK INSIDE!" and pull up a few scanned pages of the book, which must have been provided by Dover.


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burb scope
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #5111322 - 03/08/12 09:34 AM

I have my copy of BCH up and running on an iPad now.
I originally had a .pdf file for each book, but the iPad could not handle .pdfs that large. I made a separate intro .pdf, then a separate .pdf for each constellation.


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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #5111434 - 03/08/12 10:34 AM

I wouldn't mind seeing this as an ebook...but don't see desperate need for it. It's not really a book to use at the telescope, afterall, but more a book for inside. If you just want the object lists, they are available for most planning programs from their user communities...

What I'd like in Kindle/ebook form would be The Night Sky Observer's Guide...


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #5111949 - 03/08/12 04:09 PM

BCH in digital format is a wonderful idea, especially if searchable, but don't feel that the Kindle and other e-book readers are up to the task yet... what is needed is an e-reader that opens up just like a book, with a page-oriented screen on either side, that mimics in form an actual printed book. That would prevent the need for scrolling, as well as other contortions...

A bit off-topic, but has anyone else given any thought regarding Amazon's choice of the name "Kindle", as it relates to books in general? My first connection upon hearing the name was to Fahrenheit 451, in all honesty... gives one pause, doesn't it?


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5112015 - 03/08/12 04:44 PM

I really do not understand this. It is still an almost 50 year old book. Other newer books do the same thing much better although not with the flowery prose and language. It is a great list of objects but there are other better lists. I just don't understand this love affair with an old book.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5112116 - 03/08/12 05:40 PM

My fondness for the work of William Tyler Olcott would no doubt leave you completely baffled, then.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: desertstars]
      #5112194 - 03/08/12 06:15 PM

I like Burnham's and Olcott and Admiral Smyth's and lots of older books. I just don't find them terribly useful in the field. From what I know, Dover is a low rent-operataion and not terribly responsive to anybody about anything. But that is what I have been told, I've never dealt with them personally.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: desertstars]
      #5112201 - 03/08/12 06:18 PM

Quote:

My fondness for the work of William Tyler Olcott would no doubt leave you completely baffled, then.




My feelings exactly, with Martha Evans Martin and Garrett P. Serviss following in Olcott's train.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: desertstars]
      #5112212 - 03/08/12 06:22 PM

Quote:

My fondness for the work of William Tyler Olcott would no doubt leave you completely baffled, then.





Absolutely not! I have both "Field Book of the Skies" and "in Starland With a Three-Inch Telescope" by Olcott. I really love them and cut my astronomical teeth with them but I do not use them on a regular basis now either. By the way I have a well used set of Burnham's three volumes too. As much as I love these books, you have to consider there age and the fact that there are better references available today.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5112226 - 03/08/12 06:30 PM

Ah, but none of the modern references conjur the same ineffable magic as Burnham's... at least to this old observer.

Let me explain: to me, astronomy was never all about parsecs, or light years, or albedos or stellar evolution, but about a feeling... the evocative nature of Burnham's volumes, even though he was concerned with the aforementioned items, engenders the feeling I seek.

To each his own...


eta: edited for clarity.

Edited by amicus sidera (03/08/12 06:40 PM)


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5112239 - 03/08/12 06:38 PM

I don't use my digital copy in the field. It is just nice to have it available to peruse anywhere and at a moment's notice.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #5112571 - 03/08/12 10:38 PM

Quote:

What I'd like in Kindle/ebook form would be The Night Sky Observer's Guide...




Some day, what I'd really like to see is for astro observing guides in ebook form to be able to link to or work directly with astro apps as add-ons, so if I click on a deep-sky object in Sky Safari, I could also see what The Night Sky Observer's Guide or O'Meara has to say about it just by clicking a link, without ever having to leave the app.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5112672 - 03/09/12 12:17 AM

Quote:

Ah, but none of the modern references conjur the same ineffable magic as Burnham's... at least to this old observer.

Let me explain: to me, astronomy was never all about parsecs, or light years, or albedos or stellar evolution, but about a feeling... the evocative nature of Burnham's volumes, even though he was concerned with the aforementioned items, engenders the feeling I seek.

To each his own...


eta: edited for clarity.




Yes that certainly is true and I do understand that. The problem that I have is simple. The objects I typicaly look for are often not even listed in Burnhams list, let alone the few he expounds on. The number of deep-sky objects that he does any thing more than list are few. All three volumes are mostely double star write ups that do not contain curent information. Those who use Burnham's double star list have to look up curent information on seperation and position angle. Of the approximatly 1,000 deep-sky objects that he lists, there is detailed information on only a fraction of those. So as you can see I will be looking up curent information on those too, as well as those not included in this work. It was a great resourse when it came out, and todays works are rather dry compared to Burnham, but I will take modern works over a work almost as old as I am any day.

For me Sue French's new book, Deep Sky Wonders, is far superior to the information included in Burnhams. Need I say that she includes many more deep-sky objects in one volume too. She also provides a description of each one and not just included in the list.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5112846 - 03/09/12 05:25 AM

I am happy with the Handbook the way it is-in paper.
digital would not be of interest to me

edj


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5113002 - 03/09/12 08:39 AM

Quote:

Quote:

My fondness for the work of William Tyler Olcott would no doubt leave you completely baffled, then.





Absolutely not! I have both "Field Book of the Skies" and "in Starland With a Three-Inch Telescope" by Olcott. I really love them and cut my astronomical teeth with them but I do not use them on a regular basis now either. By the way I have a well used set of Burnham's three volumes too. As much as I love these books, you have to consider there age and the fact that there are better references available today.





I was teasing, of course. Field Book of the Skies got me started as well.

Can't speak for anyone else, but one of the reasons I still use BCH (and other old books) is for the historical context they provide. It's of great interest to me to see how people of other times saw the same objects I observe, given the different equipment and attitudes of their times. Amateur astronomy is blessed with its own, and fairly extensive, written history.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5114311 - 03/09/12 11:11 PM

"what is needed is an e-reader that opens up just like a book, with a page-oriented screen on either side, that mimics in form an actual printed book. That would prevent the need for scrolling, as well as other contortions..."

The iPad allows you to view the book in landscape mode and flip pages back and forth with a flick; one page on each side; no scrolling or zooming. I'm not sure what doubling the screen count and buys you other than a less convenient (i.e., floppy/awkward) format with a physical rather than virtual fold in the middle.

Regards,

Jim


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5114315 - 03/09/12 11:16 PM

It has nothing to do with "flowery prose" which is stylistic. Rather it has to do with content. In the case of BCH, the blending of mythology, cultural interpretations, archaeology, classics, poetry, fine arts and literature with observational astronomy and (admittedly dated) astrophysics is unique.

NSOG, for example, is dead-boring and one-dimensional by comparison. Technically it is superior and more up-to-date. I use both, but one is a stilted field guide. The other is entertainment. I'm not a jr. scientist wannabe; I observe for enjoyment not data. Burnham's has more of what I'm after than NSOG.



- Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (03/09/12 11:19 PM)


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5114332 - 03/09/12 11:23 PM

Think of a small netbook with another screen where the keyboard would be - it would simply fold up, like a book, when one is finished with it. One could hold it, again, like a book, and that's what I'd like about it most... I wouldn't consider that awkward in the least.

The iPad, on the other hand, seems to render the printed word vanishingly small in the mode you describe, and the page-flipping function seems gimmicky and uncertain. Then again, I'm not an Apple fanboy in the least, but my wife adores hers...


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5114338 - 03/09/12 11:26 PM

Quote:


(snip)
NSOG, for example, is dead-boring and one-dimensional by comparison.
(snip)





My sentiments exactly.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5115210 - 03/10/12 01:37 PM

The digital ebook is nice and easy to read. I keep it on my iPad and have read them twice. PDF files are much easier to read on an iPad than my Nook eInk reader.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5115402 - 03/10/12 03:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:


(snip)
NSOG, for example, is dead-boring and one-dimensional by comparison.
(snip)





My sentiments exactly.




Agreed. It's a great book which serves a different kind of purpose and it was not meant to be compare to BCH anyway. Kepple and Sanner admitted that.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5115486 - 03/10/12 04:37 PM

"The iPad, on the other hand, seems to render the printed word vanishingly small in the mode you describe..."

Actually the default font in this mode measures larger with a ruler than the typeface in Burnham's. There's a quick select button (top-right) that allows you to grow the font by about 15% with no other change to the layout (i.e., scrolling isn't introduced by the change). You just have less text per page and do more flipping in +15% mode.

The page size of the iPad in landscape mode is the same as the page size of the average sci-fi paperback, but the print is actually a little larger on the default iPad font. Other features of merit include the ability to use a red-screen app to make the iBook reader screen less disruptive of dark adaptation and avoid needing a fee hand for a dimmable red flashlight. iBook reader also offers a night mode that inverts the text to white on black for reading in bed without a separate light source.

I'd put the significance of the iPad just a little south of Guttenberg's printing press and the invention of fire-making and the wheel. We really need a revolution in battery technology, though, to take civilization to the next level.

Regards,

Jim


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5115533 - 03/10/12 05:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ah, but none of the modern references conjur the same ineffable magic as Burnham's... at least to this old observer.

Let me explain: to me, astronomy was never all about parsecs, or light years, or albedos or stellar evolution, but about a feeling... the evocative nature of Burnham's volumes, even though he was concerned with the aforementioned items, engenders the feeling I seek.

To each his own...


eta: edited for clarity.




Yes that certainly is true and I do understand that. The problem that I have is simple. The objects I typicaly look for are often not even listed in Burnhams list, let alone the few he expounds on. The number of deep-sky objects that he does any thing more than list are few. All three volumes are mostely double star write ups that do not contain curent information. Those who use Burnham's double star list have to look up curent information on seperation and position angle. Of the approximatly 1,000 deep-sky objects that he lists, there is detailed information on only a fraction of those. So as you can see I will be looking up curent information on those too, as well as those not included in this work. It was a great resourse when it came out, and todays works are rather dry compared to Burnham, but I will take modern works over a work almost as old as I am any day.

For me Sue French's new book, Deep Sky Wonders, is far superior to the information included in Burnhams. Need I say that she includes many more deep-sky objects in one volume too. She also provides a description of each one and not just included in the list.





Burnham's is now available on Kindle if anyone's interested.

Who loves the original classic, The Day The Earth Stood Still? I've seen it some 50 times because I play it in the background of my observatory behind a red screen regularly while I'm observing. There is something so unique about old scifi movies, Invaders From Mars, Forbidden Planet etc. I love the corny old music and cheezy special effects of the era, it's fun and it brings back boy-hood days, sitting in the window of a bedroom, observing the craters of the Moon with a 60mm refractor and dreaming about visiting Mars one day. Whatever happened to dreams? Once no liquid water or life was discovered on Mars, it killed all the fun, mystery and pizzazz. It was not knowing that drove mans desire to enjoy it more and modivate the idustry to write those great books and produce those films. If scientists kept better secrets, they would probably get more funding.

I think observers get too overly obsessed with, I gotta have the latest greatest gadgets! and 90% of these people have more than they even know what to do with. What ever happened to having some heart and depth to writing? That's why Burnham's Celestial Handbook still remains the greatest of all time even today. Nobody writes like Burnham did. No one can top it and no one ever will, you know why? because no one has time, and nobody cares anymore. Everything now is just computers so the case is CLOSED. I gave a talk on astronomy in a grade school in front of 60 kids with parents last year; As soon as I asked some trivia questions on astronomy, guess what they did? They just pulled out their cell phones and looked up the stats. They don't even know or even care anymore; they just read it off a computer and that's all it ever amounts to and that's how it will be from now on; computers.

I would like to share a couple of things Buddy. Some of the double star data in BCH is dated and inaccurate yes, but programs have many errors themselves in fact an experienced double star observer and I went through several pages worth of Burnham's doubles and compared the data visually to the data in software and the inaccuracies were almost the same we were shocked. Also, Deep Sky Wonders and Burnham's are not even remotely alike. That's like comparing a dedicated roadcar to a dune buggy. Sure people can say BCH is dated, but I'll tell you what, I've been to countless star parties and most people know less than you think about the night sky and they all have computers. It hasn't made them any more knowledgeable about the night sky and thats a fact when it comes to amateur astronomy.

Honestly I can't stand modern books. They're all just filled with the same loud Hubble pictures and absolutely DEAD content. This industry just doesn't get it. Look at "2001 a Space Odyssey". People may not get it at first, but watch it a few times and an avalanche of thought provocative questions begin to emerge and the lights turn on. People just don't want to think anymore and they wonder why kids bring guns to school. I'm all for technology but if people don't start being careful, they'll end up being taken over by Hal as well. You read Burnham's on Kindle or on paperback because you LOVE the way Burnham wrote. That's why you read it. I hear people saying Burnham's is outdated all the time but I look at their copies and it looks like the dust needs to be blown off. Talk about a waste Tell me, what ever happened to all the romance?

btw, if you want to see a beautiful picture, go to p.12 in BCH.

Edited by Daniel Mounsey (03/10/12 05:38 PM)


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5115725 - 03/10/12 07:35 PM

Quote:


Burnham's is now available on Kindle if anyone's interested.





It is? Amazon only lists the paperback edition. No sign of it in the Kindle Store.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5115818 - 03/10/12 08:48 PM

Romance is fine...but when I want to SEE, give me the NSOG _anytime_.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #5115915 - 03/10/12 10:05 PM

Quote:

Romance is fine...but when I want to SEE, give me the NSOG _anytime_.




I'll give you that one.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5116007 - 03/10/12 11:01 PM

I am really happy for you Daniel. I really am but just as some people like blonds and others like redheads, some people will never like Burnham's. I enjoy reading Burnham's on a rainy day now and then but that is about it for the last decade or so. I enjoy the hunt and finding new objects not reading history and proses about the same tourist attractions we have all seen how many times now. Seeing a new object or something new in an old friend is what gets my juices flowing. Although Burnhams listing of DSO's is around a thousand, there is so much more to see that he never mentions. It is kind of like reading poetry or listening to country music, I have to be in the mood and so it is with Burnhams. I wish that modern text were not quite so dry and cookie cutter in how they presented the information but that doesn't stop me from thinking and dreaming about the objects I look for. I think your correct about today's generation, I wonder who will fix the computers when they can't look it up on line? Personaly I am glad we are not all alike. What a boring world that would be.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5116022 - 03/10/12 11:09 PM

You've become my kryptonite. I'm looking saying to myself NOOOOO!!!! It's Buddy again!!!!!

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5116030 - 03/10/12 11:20 PM

Quote:

I would like to share a couple of things Buddy. Some of the double star data in BCH is dated and inaccurate yes, but programs have many errors themselves in fact an experienced double star observer and I went through several pages worth of Burnham's doubles and compared the data visually to the data in software and the inaccuracies were almost the same we were shocked.




What did you compare these program's and Burnham's too? Did you compare them to the Washington Double Star data base? No one is perfect. We have all seen mistakes brought forward from work to work. There is very little in life that is perfect.

Quote:

Also, Deep Sky Wonders and Burnham's are not even remotely alike. That's like comparing a dedicated roadcar to a dune buggy.




Yes that is true but Deep-Sky Wonders gives just enough information to make it interesting without beating it to death. Why do I need to read ten pages on a variable star that I am not interested in, etc.

Quote:

Sure people can say BCH is dated, but I'll tell you what, I've been to countless star parties and most people know less than you think about the night sky and they all have computers. It hasn't made them any more knowledgeable about the night sky and thats a fact when it comes to amateur astronomy.




It really doesn't matter whether you read a fifty year old book or a computer if your not interested in learning, so what is the point here? The reality here is that a lot of amateurs are just astronomical tourist and I think that is OK. It's a hobby not a job or love affair.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5116033 - 03/10/12 11:23 PM

Quote:

You've become my kryptonite. I'm looking saying to myself NOOOOO!!!! It's Buddy again!!!!!




Sorry! I don't mean to be.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5116191 - 03/11/12 01:37 AM

Its okay Buddy. I getta kick out of your posts.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5116748 - 03/11/12 01:14 PM

Quote:


Daniel wrote:

(snip)
I think observers get too overly obsessed with, I gotta have the latest greatest gadgets! and 90% of these people have more than they even know what to do with. What ever happened to having some heart and depth to writing? That's why Burnham's Celestial Handbook still remains the greatest of all time even today. Nobody writes like Burnham did. No one can top it and no one ever will, you know why? because no one has time, and nobody cares anymore. Everything now is just computers so the case is CLOSED. I gave a talk on astronomy in a grade school in front of 60 kids with parents last year; As soon as I asked some trivia questions on astronomy, guess what they did? They just pulled out their cell phones and looked up the stats. They don't even know or even care anymore; they just read it off a computer and that's all it ever amounts to and that's how it will be from now on; computers.

I would like to share a couple of things Buddy. Some of the double star data in BCH is dated and inaccurate yes, but programs have many errors themselves in fact an experienced double star observer and I went through several pages worth of Burnham's doubles and compared the data visually to the data in software and the inaccuracies were almost the same we were shocked. Also, Deep Sky Wonders and Burnham's are not even remotely alike. That's like comparing a dedicated roadcar to a dune buggy. Sure people can say BCH is dated, but I'll tell you what, I've been to countless star parties and most people know less than you think about the night sky and they all have computers. It hasn't made them any more knowledgeable about the night sky and thats a fact when it comes to amateur astronomy.

Honestly I can't stand modern books. They're all just filled with the same loud Hubble pictures and absolutely DEAD content. This industry just doesn't get it. Look at "2001 a Space Odyssey". People may not get it at first, but watch it a few times and an avalanche of thought provocative questions begin to emerge and the lights turn on. People just don't want to think anymore and they wonder why kids bring guns to school. I'm all for technology but if people don't start being careful, they'll end up being taken over by Hal as well. You read Burnham's on Kindle or on paperback because you LOVE the way Burnham wrote. That's why you read it. I hear people saying Burnham's is outdated all the time but I look at their copies and it looks like the dust needs to be blown off. Talk about a waste Tell me, what ever happened to all the romance?

btw, if you want to see a beautiful picture, go to p.12 in BCH.




At the risk of wearing the phrase out:

My sentiments exactly.

Wow.


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FJA
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5116847 - 03/11/12 01:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Daniel wrote:

(snip)
I think observers get too overly obsessed with, I gotta have the latest greatest gadgets! and 90% of these people have more than they even know what to do with. What ever happened to having some heart and depth to writing? That's why Burnham's Celestial Handbook still remains the greatest of all time even today. Nobody writes like Burnham did. No one can top it and no one ever will, you know why? because no one has time, and nobody cares anymore. Everything now is just computers so the case is CLOSED. I gave a talk on astronomy in a grade school in front of 60 kids with parents last year; As soon as I asked some trivia questions on astronomy, guess what they did? They just pulled out their cell phones and looked up the stats. They don't even know or even care anymore; they just read it off a computer and that's all it ever amounts to and that's how it will be from now on; computers.

I would like to share a couple of things Buddy. Some of the double star data in BCH is dated and inaccurate yes, but programs have many errors themselves in fact an experienced double star observer and I went through several pages worth of Burnham's doubles and compared the data visually to the data in software and the inaccuracies were almost the same we were shocked. Also, Deep Sky Wonders and Burnham's are not even remotely alike. That's like comparing a dedicated roadcar to a dune buggy. Sure people can say BCH is dated, but I'll tell you what, I've been to countless star parties and most people know less than you think about the night sky and they all have computers. It hasn't made them any more knowledgeable about the night sky and thats a fact when it comes to amateur astronomy.

Honestly I can't stand modern books. They're all just filled with the same loud Hubble pictures and absolutely DEAD content. This industry just doesn't get it. Look at "2001 a Space Odyssey". People may not get it at first, but watch it a few times and an avalanche of thought provocative questions begin to emerge and the lights turn on. People just don't want to think anymore and they wonder why kids bring guns to school. I'm all for technology but if people don't start being careful, they'll end up being taken over by Hal as well. You read Burnham's on Kindle or on paperback because you LOVE the way Burnham wrote. That's why you read it. I hear people saying Burnham's is outdated all the time but I look at their copies and it looks like the dust needs to be blown off. Talk about a waste Tell me, what ever happened to all the romance?

btw, if you want to see a beautiful picture, go to p.12 in BCH.




At the risk of wearing the phrase out:

My sentiments exactly.

Wow.




And mine! Well said, Daniel.


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SATMAN
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: FJA]
      #5116857 - 03/11/12 01:55 PM

I checked the kindle site , I could not find Burnhams listed , I had an old dog eared paper back set that was loosing its pages , I used a high speed scanner at work it now resides on my IPad the pictures don't scan to well.
This can be one option, scan for personal use.
And no sorry I cannot share my scans.


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blb
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: SATMAN]
      #5116929 - 03/11/12 02:29 PM

You never responded?

Quote:

Quote:

I think observers get too overly obsessed with, I gotta have the latest greatest gadgets! and 90% of these people have more than they even know what to do with. What ever happened to having some heart and depth to writing? That's why Burnham's Celestial Handbook still remains the greatest of all time even today. Nobody writes like Burnham did. No one can top it and no one ever will, you know why? because no one has time, and nobody cares anymore. Everything now is just computers so the case is CLOSED.




That is a sad comentary on our modern way of life.

Quote:

I would like to share a couple of things Buddy. Some of the double star data in BCH is dated and inaccurate yes, but programs have many errors themselves in fact an experienced double star observer and I went through several pages worth of Burnham's doubles and compared the data visually to the data in software and the inaccuracies were almost the same we were shocked.




What did you compare these program's and Burnham's too? Did you compare them to the Washington Double Star data base? No one is perfect. We have all seen mistakes brought forward from work to work. There is very little in life that is perfect.

Quote:

Also, Deep Sky Wonders and Burnham's are not even remotely alike. That's like comparing a dedicated roadcar to a dune buggy.




Yes that is true but Deep-Sky Wonders gives just enough information to make it interesting without beating it to death. Why do I need to read ten pages on a variable star that I am not interested in, etc.

Quote:

Sure people can say BCH is dated, but I'll tell you what, I've been to countless star parties and most people know less than you think about the night sky and they all have computers. It hasn't made them any more knowledgeable about the night sky and thats a fact when it comes to amateur astronomy.




It really doesn't matter whether you read a fifty year old book or a computer if your not interested in learning, so what is the point here? The reality here is that a lot of amateurs are just astronomical tourist and I think that is OK. It's a hobby not a job or love affair.





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okieav8rAdministrator
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5116945 - 03/11/12 02:41 PM

Quote:

I am really happy for you Daniel. I really am but just as some people like blonds and others like redheads, some people will never like Burnham's. I enjoy reading Burnham's on a rainy day now and then but that is about it for the last decade or so. I enjoy the hunt and finding new objects not reading history and proses about the same tourist attractions we have all seen how many times now. Seeing a new object or something new in an old friend is what gets my juices flowing. Although Burnhams listing of DSO's is around a thousand, there is so much more to see that he never mentions. It is kind of like reading poetry or listening to country music, I have to be in the mood and so it is with Burnhams. I wish that modern text were not quite so dry and cookie cutter in how they presented the information but that doesn't stop me from thinking and dreaming about the objects I look for. I think your correct about today's generation, I wonder who will fix the computers when they can't look it up on line? Personaly I am glad we are not all alike. What a boring world that would be.





I'm with you Buddy. I like Burnham, but Daniel is almost evangelistic in his enthusiam for him. That's fine for him, but let those who find enjoyment and information in other resouces be content to do so.


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Ira
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5117013 - 03/11/12 03:22 PM

Where's a link to the Kindle version?????

/Ira


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mtnmedic
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5117067 - 03/11/12 04:06 PM

Hey folks, I'm the OP. I've been lurking and enjoying the spirited conversation, learning some things along the way. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas. Keep up the dialog. Just remember...in case of a disagreement...please don't argue. There are no right and wrong answers here.

Everyone who reads Robert Burnham's guide will certainly become aware of its age and that it may or may not be technically current in one way or another. However, I doubt anyone can argue its significance in the astronomical community nor the fascinating treasure trove of facts, anecdotes and observational information it contains that is still relevant in some fashion. It's excellent reading, no matter how serious you are about astronomy, regardless of whether it's in paper or electronic form (though the latter might give it renewed interest). As far as I'm concerned, it's a literary classic and is of tremendous value as an art, as a source of technical data (current or historical) and as an interesting point of perspective. Many of the lessons gleaned from within Burnham's guide are still important to this day.

Personally, I find it to be a pleasant, whimsical, colorful and passionate study of the night sky that's not so easily found in today's astronomy-related literature, if at all. This was a labor of love for Robert. Nothing more, nothing less. Those of us who choose to revel in his works will also discover unique inspiration from within, as we are wont to do.

Edited by mtnmedic (03/11/12 04:13 PM)


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okieav8rAdministrator
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #5117103 - 03/11/12 04:31 PM

Quote:

Hey folks, I'm the OP. I've been lurking and enjoying the spirited conversation, learning some things along the way. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas. Keep up the dialog. Just remember...in case of a disagreement...please don't argue. There are no right and wrong answers here.

Everyone who reads Robert Burnham's guide will certainly become aware of its age and that it may or may not be technically current in one way or another. However, I doubt anyone can argue its significance in the astronomical community nor the fascinating treasure trove of facts, anecdotes and observational information it contains that is still relevant in some fashion. It's excellent reading, no matter how serious you are about astronomy, regardless of whether it's in paper or electronic form (though the latter might give it renewed interest). As far as I'm concerned, it's a literary classic and is of tremendous value as an art, as a source of technical data (current or historical) and as an interesting point of perspective. Many of the lessons gleaned from within Burnham's guide are still important to this day.

Personally, I find it to be a pleasant, whimsical, colorful and passionate study of the night sky that's not so easily found in today's astronomy-related literature, if at all. This was a labor of love for Robert. Nothing more, nothing less. Those of us who choose to revel in his works will also discover unique inspiration from within, as we are wont to do.




Agreed and well said Michael. I said in an earlier post in this thread that I would like to see an updated verion of Burnham's handbook, but I've changed my mind about that. Because there is better and more up-to-date information available (my opinion), I really think it is best left alone to be the classic that it is.


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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #5117220 - 03/11/12 05:40 PM

Quote:



Everyone who reads Robert Burnham's guide will certainly become aware of its age and that it may or may not be technically current




It's not technically correct, and, frankly, wasn't on day one. But that's not why you real Burnham's. You don't read it for hard information on objects beyond the bright ones, either. You read it for its poetic take on the cosmos. Which is enough for me on a cloudy winter's evening. If not for at the telescope...and that is OK.


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Kokopelli
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Ira]
      #5117391 - 03/11/12 08:39 PM

Quote:

Where's a link to the Kindle version?????

/Ira




Works fine on my iPad.
Google is your friend.


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Ira
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Kokopelli]
      #5117464 - 03/11/12 09:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Where's a link to the Kindle version?????

/Ira




Works fine on my iPad.
Google is your friend.




Those links are all very sketchy and full of deceitful comeons. Not for me.

/Ira


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desertstars

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Ira]
      #5117616 - 03/11/12 11:16 PM

Just as well. The downloadable versions of BCH I've found have all been pirated. That's not a thing we need to encourage.

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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5119782 - 03/13/12 09:04 AM



For those asking about Kindle, I apologize, I was wrong. A friend of mine and I were looking at a Kindle of BCH about 3 weeks ago, but my friend contacted me the other day apologizing after I asked again because of this forum. What it was, is a suggestion box to recommend BCH for Kindle, not an actual BCH Kindle program. Sorry for the confusion.


Hi Buddy,

Your comments are interesting regarding Burnham. For that reason I do tend to go after you whenever the Burnham topic surfaces. I'll be back to address your comments shortly because I do have a response to your post.


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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #5119826 - 03/13/12 09:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:



Everyone who reads Robert Burnham's guide will certainly become aware of its age and that it may or may not be technically current




It's not technically correct, and, frankly, wasn't on day one. But that's not why you real Burnham's. You don't read it for hard information on objects beyond the bright ones, either. You read it for its poetic take on the cosmos. Which is enough for me on a cloudy winter's evening. If not for at the telescope...and that is OK.




If Burnham were available in digital; others may find it easier to take to the telescope in the field but paper is still the best IMO because you can scribble notes in it. I am working on a review of BCH because in my opinion, there still appears to be several key topics that are overlooked about the way BCH was set up and how it was designed to be used in the field. BCH has some super unique features no other field guide in the world offers even to this day and I'm going to expose them later. Many observers appear to be under the impression that BCH is just an arm chair read. That's actually not correct. For users of 12" telescopes on down especially, it's still a good source. Many of the DSO are a magnitude fainter than should be but BCH was also specifically designed to be used in the field as well. That's why the objects are listed as they are and I also like the NSOG. BCH and NSOG are set up differently and each deserve mention but they're both good sources. BCH just requires some more understanding because it has more features that are absent in the NSOG. More on that later.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5142466 - 03/26/12 03:31 PM

Daniel:

Your pictures of your post-it and scribble jammed BCH inspired me to dedicate my oldest paperbound copy of BCH to field use (I have three sets; two paperbound and one hardbound).

An iPad iBook or Kindle version would be great, though, for those of us using iOS devices in the field to control mounts using Sky Safari and Sky Wire or Sky Fi.

Regards,

Jim


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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5142547 - 03/26/12 04:09 PM

It has many features and many good ones. But not for observing at the scope. NSOG has many more objects and data on their appearance with different apertures.

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blb
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #5142720 - 03/26/12 06:27 PM

Even if you are a double star/variable star observer (which is the bulk of Burnhams three volumes) you still have to look up the current information about the stars. If on the other hand you are into observing those nonstelar DSO's, like I am, then you know that Burnhams little over a thousand objects listed are pretty much the showcase tourist objects. Almost all of us look at many more objects than Burnham's covers and you will still need to look up the curent information on the majority of those objects. Why? because less than a fifth of the non-stelar objects are included in his detailed notes about them and the rest are only listed.

Do I have a set of Burnham's three volumes? YES, and I still look at them on ocasion when hunting information about an object. I also have two works by Olcott and I have several other turn of the last centery works on a disk that I have saved. Do I love to read those on ocasion too. YES! In fact reading about our observational history is a lot of fun for me. But do I use them at the telescope or for planning my night of observing? NO! They simply do not cover all that I wont to see in a nights observing. We have many works that cover so much that these works did not even know about or observers were not able to observe then at those times. But hey that was then and this is now and we have works like the NSOG and Sue French's Deep Sky Wonders along with others that cover more of what is observed today.

I say enjoy the older work's for what they were but come on let's move on beyond 50 to 100 year old books. Their is so much more to be seen in the sky. Enjoy the history of observational astronomy and let's not exclude or limit our viewing to these older works. If you have not viewed these objects yet then please do, they are wonderful sights, but do not limit yourselves either, there is much more to be seen and not looking would be your loss.


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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5143750 - 03/27/12 11:12 AM



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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5148191 - 03/30/12 02:16 AM

Quote:

Daniel:

Your pictures of your post-it and scribble jammed BCH inspired me to dedicate my oldest paperbound copy of BCH to field use (I have three sets; two paperbound and one hardbound).

An iPad iBook or Kindle version would be great, though, for those of us using iOS devices in the field to control mounts using Sky Safari and Sky Wire or Sky Fi.

Regards,

Jim




Jim,
I'm glad you were inspired. Burnham was undoubtedly a remarkable individual. BCH was the only thing that inspired me to observe because he really spoke from the heart. Had it not been for those copies of BCH I purchased in the early 90's, I wouldn't even be involved with public outreach. BCH is like having a close observing friend. People can say all the negative things they want, but I've given many lectures on the night sky, just like Dennis Mammana has and both he and I still use Burnham's. The inspiration is there. What I will sometimes do is check some of the astrophyical data against current data to see how much certain things have evolved but the detail of the work is still unrivaled by anything out there IMO. It's a total package companion.


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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5148201 - 03/30/12 02:34 AM

Buddy,
It was the Washington double star catalog. Btw I do like and appreciate technology and I hope it continues to grow further, however, I already appreciate what I have. I don't need all the tech stuff to be inspired. BCH has enough to last a life time. btw you may not care much about stars, but have you looked at Polaris lately with a pair of binoculars? It's the tip of a diamond ring. I learned that from BCH. I don't recall anything else telling me that.


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skyward_eyes
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5148632 - 03/30/12 11:12 AM

There is something you dont see brought up very often! The Diamond Ring, nice work Daniel.

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blb
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: skyward_eyes]
      #5148710 - 03/30/12 12:11 PM

Quote:

BCH was the only thing that inspired me to observe because he really spoke from the heart.




I am sorry to hear that. What inspired me to observe was the longing to see the wonders of the sky for myself and not just look at pretty pictures in books and magazines. It is not unlike my bird watching. I can look at fantistic pictures in books or I can get out and look for myself. I am the type of person who has got to see it for myself. There is so much more to see than what is contained in BCH.

Quote:

Btw I do like and appreciate technology and I hope it continues to grow further, however, I already appreciate what I have. I don't need all the tech stuff to be inspired.




I certanily hope so. You make your living selling the latest and greatest equipment. That's a good thing. We today enjoy the best equipment for viewing that has ever been made.

Quote:

I don't need all the tech stuff to be inspired.




And I do? I have been star hoping since 1964. Only my ETX and my C=11 have go-to, all the rest I star hop with.

Quote:

...but have you looked at Polaris lately with a pair of binoculars? It's the tip of a diamond ring. I learned that from BCH. I don't recall anything else telling me that.




Yes I have seen the diamond ring with my 10x50 binoculars. I really don't remember the first time that I looked at it but I have known about it for a long time now. This asterism is on almost all asterism lists. Asterisms are something that tweeks my interest every now and then. They are neat but can't hold my interest like an interacting pair of galaxies.

Quote:

BCH has enough to last a life time.




I guess that's true if you wont a limited list to view from but there is so much more to see, I just can't see limiting myself to only that list of objects when there is so much more to see.


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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: blb]
      #5151067 - 04/01/12 01:21 AM

In your defense Buddy, you're obviously a good observer. I respect and understand your desire to explore even more extensive catalogs. Btw I actually wouldn't mind a Kindle with a red back light with all these awesome books discussed.

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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5151385 - 04/01/12 09:44 AM

Quote:

Buddy,
It was the Washington double star catalog. Btw I do like and appreciate technology and I hope it continues to grow further, however, I already appreciate what I have. I don't need all the tech stuff to be inspired. BCH has enough to last a life time.




If that's enough for you, that's great. But for quite a few of us the Handbook's 1500 or so is more of a "best of the best." Useful on that level, but...

Some of us want to go deeper, far deeper...on to the next level beyond the NGCs.


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amicus sidera
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5151446 - 04/01/12 10:27 AM

Quote:

Daniel Mounsey wrote:

(snip)
Btw I do like and appreciate technology and I hope it continues to grow further, however, I already appreciate what I have. I don't need all the tech stuff to be inspired. BCH has enough to last a life time.
(snip)





+100.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #5157034 - 04/05/12 02:04 AM

I started out with paperback editions of all three volumes. After donating them to the Mt Wilson Observatory Library, I purchased used hardcover editions of all three volumes. I enjoy reading books the old fashioned way, on printed bound paper. It is easier on the eyes. I will treasure my hardcover editions for a long time, with no need for an electronic edition.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Matthew Ota]
      #5158507 - 04/06/12 12:40 AM

I like technology, particularly the Kindle, but I'd rather have real paper in my hands if possible. To me it seems like so many people are on a technology binge. Last night I opened Burnham's Volume 2 to read about the 6 star Castor system and the description is so fantasic. Burnham has so many incredible stories to tell about so many objects of great interest no matter what kind it is.

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okieav8rAdministrator
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5158667 - 04/06/12 07:00 AM

Quote:

I like technology, particularly the Kindle, but I'd rather have real paper in my hands if possible. To me it seems like so many people are on a technology binge. Last night I opened Burnham's Volume 2 to read about the 6 star Castor system and the description is so fantasic. Burnham has so many incredible stories to tell about so many objects of great interest no matter what kind it is.




For some of us, it isn't about being on a "technology binge", but if that is what makes the hobby more enjoyable for some, then more power to them. I'd rather see folks enjoying astronomy that way than not at all. Having my laptop in the field is a simple matter of convenience. It helps make my observing sessions much more productive. When in the field, I'm not looking for incredible stories--I'm looking for cold information, in whatever form I deem most useful and convenient. When I'm not in the field, then yes, I prefer paper to screens, and I have much more time to enjoy and educate myself with the stories and lore in the comfort of my easy chair.


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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5164813 - 04/10/12 09:24 AM

Rex,
What computer software are you using?


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okieav8rAdministrator
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5165295 - 04/10/12 01:57 PM

Quote:

Rex,
What computer software are you using?




Hi Daniel. I've tried most all of them, but I really like and use Skytools 3. I really love the planning and charting features that it has. If Skytools has one caveat (for me), it's that it doesn't have a planetarium feature. I kind of find it useful to be able to drag the sky map around, so I usually have Stellarium open along side it. I think they compliment each other nicely.

Another thing I like about Skytools is that its developer, Greg Crinklaw, has a yahoo groups page where he is very responisve to questions if you have trouble with something, and he's good about correcting any errors you might find. His website has a lot of good how-to videos for learning the software.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5166207 - 04/11/12 12:36 AM

Rex,
So basically you can make an observational list which is nice. Do you use any other observational materials and what telescope are you using the majority of the time for those observations?


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okieav8rAdministrator
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5166373 - 04/11/12 06:32 AM

Quote:

Rex,
So basically you can make an observational list which is nice. Do you use any other observational materials and what telescope are you using the majority of the time for those observations?




I sometimes look at NSOG and Skytools for object information, and sometimes at Uranometria and/or SkyAtlas 2000 before a session. I have 18 and 20 inch Obsession telescopes, and a Televue NP-101is.


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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5167628 - 04/11/12 09:54 PM

Ahhh, the best of both worlds refractor and reflector, that's good. I haven't looked at Sky Tools in a while. Is the object info decent in your opinion? It appears to have nice graphics on the site. You don't find the computer in the field inconvenient? You need a good red screen and battery power I'd imagine yes? Although a Kindle would be limited to books, it certainly lasts a long time battery wise but I'm not sure how a Kindle handles cold weather.

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okieav8rAdministrator
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5167684 - 04/11/12 10:39 PM

Quote:

Ahhh, the best of both worlds refractor and reflector, that's good. I haven't looked at Sky Tools in a while. Is the object info decent in your opinion? It appears to have nice graphics on the site. You don't find the computer in the field inconvenient? You need a good red screen and battery power I'd imagine yes? Although a Kindle would be limited to books, it certainly lasts a long time battery wise but I'm not sure how a Kindle handles cold weather.




I think that the object info in Skytools is great in my opinion, but you can always supplement it with any extra sources you might like. I do like the graphics in Skytools, but its real advantage is planning and charting. Both of those features can be easily customized by the user. For me, using the laptop in the field is very convenient. all I have to do is open it up and turn it on. My laptop battery is rated for over 7 hours, and I find that employing battery saving features has gotten me through all night observing sessions easily. I keep a sheet of red plexiglas and a fold up shield in my laptop bag. I haven't had a chance to play with a Kindle, so I don't really know anything about them, but I can see where it could be a useful astronomy tool. I'm rarely out for long when the weather is cold because I'm usually ready to call it quits before my gear does.


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gmartin02
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5851281 - 05/10/13 02:22 AM

Bump...

It appears that all 3 volumes are now available on Amazon as Kindle Edition ebooks.

Volume 1 - $19.31
Volume 2 - $14.51
Volume 3 - $16.49

Greg


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core
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: gmartin02]
      #5851345 - 05/10/13 04:28 AM

Greg,

Thanks for the heads up! I never thought I'd see the day it'll make it to the 'official' kindle edition. Kinda regret selling my kindle DX ... Yeah, it works on tablets, but it's quite different.


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burb scope
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: core]
      #5851496 - 05/10/13 08:02 AM

Wow, thanks for the alert.
I used Amazon's "Look Inside!" function to check out the digital versions. My initial impressions are that the scanned photographs are a bit "contrasty" (to make the sky black?), and that they have squashed them in the vertical dimension to make them fit on the page better. Hold a page from one of the books up to the screen to see what I mean. Perhaps this due to the fact that I am looking at it on a PC, not on a Kindle.
These are a combination of simple scans and digital text.
The original page numbers are missing, as well as most of the boxes that surround photograph annotations. The "LIST OF DOUBLE AND MULTIPLE STARS" that appears at the beginning of each constellation is scanned like a photograph. This retains the hand-drawn Greek letters. Sometimes the vertical column separation lines are not actually vertical, but they made the lines of text line up horizontally. I have also noticed that the Greek words and letters that appear in the middle of the digitized text look like scanned bits of the original books, and might not be searchable.
In the books, you will find photographs and charts dab smack in the middle of a run of text. The digitized version seems to finish the text, then insert the photograph or chart at the end of the text. This might make the page number location of a chart or photograph differ from the original books. Again, I do not have a Kindle to verify this. The advantage is that most the text should be searchable.
All in all, I like what I see on Amazon's site, and I bet they will sell a ton of these (How much do bytes weigh?)
I love the PDF versions that I created, but I would probably purchase these Kindle versions if they could be converted to PDFs.
Two thumbs up!


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gmartin02
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: burb scope]
      #5851880 - 05/10/13 11:56 AM

It is really good that the table of contents has links for every constellation, so at least you can jump to any constellation you want quickly.

I wish B&N had the digital edition - I am a confirmed Nook only user (partly due to my philosophical difference with Amazaon's "crush the competition to create a monopoly" digital publishing practices).

Please - anyone using Nook should go to the B&N web site and click on the "Want to read this on your NOOK? Request as NOOK Book from the publisher" link. Unfortunately, B&N only lists Volume 1 & 3 in paperback, so there is no link to request a Nook version for Volume 2.

Oh well - even though I don't like buying digital books from Amazon, I may have to purchase from them anyway, because I don't know how long I can wait for a digital edition of these books from B&N when I know I they are already available. My 30 year old paperback editions are falling apart, and my wife is allergic to paper mites in old books, so I currently have all of my old books in boxes in the garage.


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StephAdministrator
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: gmartin02]
      #5852280 - 05/10/13 04:25 PM

Quote:

Bump...

It appears that all 3 volumes are now available on Amazon as Kindle Edition ebooks.

Volume 1 - $19.31
Volume 2 - $14.51
Volume 3 - $16.49

Greg




Awesome news! Here are links:

Volume 1
Volume 2
Volume 3


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Rick Woods
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Steph]
      #5852784 - 05/10/13 09:37 PM

Hmm. I saw a full set today, hardcopy, and in great condition, for $30.

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StephAdministrator
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5852882 - 05/10/13 10:24 PM

Certainly the cost isn't any great shakes, but sometimes it's nice to have things with you in an easier-to-carry-anywhere format.

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Rich (RLTYS)
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Steph]
      #5853316 - 05/11/13 07:06 AM

I already have two copies of the original books and admit I rarely use them. Maybe the Kindle version will be a future purchase.

Rich (RLTYS)


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CelestronDaddy
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Rich (RLTYS)]
      #5853347 - 05/11/13 08:05 AM

I like to shop at Half Price Books and there are four or five in town. They almost always have good condition volume 1 through volume 3 when I shop. You might check HPB's out if you have them locally...

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amicus sidera
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: CelestronDaddy]
      #5855236 - 05/12/13 11:16 AM

Very glad to see that BCH is now in digital format! I'll look into getting hold of a copy; thanks, OP!

On a side note, I noticed a scathing review of the Handbooks among those on Amazon; one of the comments regarding this particular negative review asked the reviewer to refrain from using Burnham's to "kindle the fires of your limited sterile depauperate mental hibachi." I damn near fell on the floor laughing... one rarely sees such form exhibited This was also the first time in recent memory that I've had recourse to a dictionary ("depauperate" is now my Word of the Week).

Fred


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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5857125 - 05/13/13 10:07 AM

Quote:

Hmm. I saw a full set today, hardcopy, and in great condition, for $30.




Hit the eBay and you can get a set in very good condition for about half that usually. I did. I like the idea of a Kindle edition, but the price is just too much. And it's very oddly priced in typical Amazon fashion. $19.95 and I might consider getting it and a Kindle to play it on.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #5858138 - 05/13/13 05:54 PM

^^ +1. That's how I got my 3 volume set for under $17.

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Rick Woods
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: BoriSpider]
      #5858571 - 05/13/13 09:09 PM

Yeah, I saw the set at a used book store (always more expensive). But, there's no shortage of them out there. I like a copy that doesn't disappear when the battery dies.

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #5858717 - 05/13/13 10:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Hmm. I saw a full set today, hardcopy, and in great condition, for $30.




Hit the eBay and you can get a set in very good condition for about half that usually.



+ about $4./ each for shipping = almost $30.


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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: davidpitre]
      #5859375 - 05/14/13 08:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Hmm. I saw a full set today, hardcopy, and in great condition, for $30.




Hit the eBay and you can get a set in very good condition for about half that usually.



+ about $4./ each for shipping = almost $30.




Sorry about that... my set _shipped_ was 15.00.


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csa/montana
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5859691 - 05/14/13 11:46 AM

Quote:

Yeah, I saw the set at a used book store (always more expensive). But, there's no shortage of them out there. I like a copy that doesn't disappear when the battery dies.




I also just like to have the actual books to thumb thru & enjoy. That's why I enjoy my astro library so much.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5859778 - 05/14/13 12:23 PM

Coolness, I'll have to look into the Kindle editions. I like my Kindle, but it is hard to flip through. I have two hardback sets and one paperback set. I like to have one set to mark up and the other to keep cleen. I like my Kindle for taking books with me on trips. I also use the text to speech function to listen to a book while mowing the grass.

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StephAdministrator
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: jgraham]
      #5860097 - 05/14/13 02:39 PM

Absolutely, John, there's no reason a person only has to have ONE version of the books!

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CelestronDaddy
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Steph]
      #5863183 - 05/15/13 08:48 PM

I bought another mint three volume hard copy set of BCH at Half Price Books for $6.00 ea. For that price I'll keep two sets!

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Wmacky
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: CelestronDaddy]
      #5863210 - 05/15/13 09:18 PM

I can't believe what just happened. I was checking out the 1st addition on Amazon, and had forgot it was logged into my sons account. He has 1 touch buying setup, and some how I just accidentally purchased the digital copy. I see no way for refund. I can't believe this. If I'm stuck I'm done with them. I was perfectly happy with my hardcovers all for less than I just spent. I don't even own a Kindle.

Edited by Wmacky (05/15/13 09:33 PM)


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jgraham
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Wmacky]
      #5863286 - 05/15/13 09:57 PM

I couldn't resist, I bought the Kindle set. Wonderul! I love spending time with these books. So far the only problem I have is that volume 1 lacks a usable table of contents. I'll generate one that lists where each chapter begins.

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StephAdministrator
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Wmacky]
      #5863433 - 05/15/13 11:03 PM

Quote:

I can't believe what just happened. I was checking out the 1st addition on Amazon, and had forgot it was logged into my sons account. He has 1 touch buying setup, and some how I just accidentally purchased the digital copy. I see no way for refund. I can't believe this. If I'm stuck I'm done with them. I was perfectly happy with my hardcovers all for less than I just spent. I don't even own a Kindle.





Email them. They'll usually refund Kindle purchases within 7 days.


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smallscopefanLeo
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Steph]
      #5863463 - 05/15/13 11:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I can't believe what just happened. I was checking out the 1st addition on Amazon, and had forgot it was logged into my sons account. He has 1 touch buying setup, and some how I just accidentally purchased the digital copy. I see no way for refund. I can't believe this. If I'm stuck I'm done with them. I was perfectly happy with my hardcovers all for less than I just spent. I don't even own a Kindle.





Email them. They'll usually refund Kindle purchases within 7 days.




I second this, call, email or chat with them. The few times that I have needed help over the many years of using Amazon, they have had great customer service. I bet hundreds of people do the same sort of thing every day, select things by mistake.


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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: gmartin02]
      #5863582 - 05/16/13 12:24 AM

Quote:

I wish B&N had the digital edition - I am a confirmed Nook only user (partly due to my philosophical difference with Amazaon's "crush the competition to create a monopoly" digital publishing practices).

Please - anyone using Nook should go to the B&N web site and click on the "Want to read this on your NOOK? Request as NOOK Book from the publisher" link. Unfortunately, B&N only lists Volume 1 & 3 in paperback, so there is no link to request a Nook version for Volume 2.





B&N just added Nook editions of BCH, but only for Volumes 1 & 3 (see above) - $16.49 each. The Volume 3 preview is active, and it looks like the same format and hyperlink layout as the Kindle edition.

I wonder if my request helped them add it to their inventory? Now I have to figure out a way to request Volume 2 in the Nook edition...

Greg


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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: gmartin02]
      #5863643 - 05/16/13 01:18 AM

Quote:

Bump...

It appears that all 3 volumes are now available on Amazon as Kindle Edition ebooks.

Volume 1 - $19.31
Volume 2 - $14.51
Volume 3 - $16.49

Greg




Aaaaahhhhhh this is wonderful news!!! I'm always reading hard copies and my wife wants to hang me sometimes. I see her looking at me saying, are you ever going to put those books down!!!!!!!! And I quietly say I'm sorry, but I just cant put'm down. With a Kindle, she won't know I've been reading the same book again and again for the past 20 years.


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core
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5863724 - 05/16/13 02:58 AM

Like others, I have both the softcover and hardcover versions; the kindle/digital editions are nice, but not $50 nice My magic mark would be $9.99 x 3, I would strongly consider ...

Two things came to mind whilst browsing the samples:

1) I presume Dover wholly owns the copyright to the BCH, no royalties paid to anyone?

2) iirc I spotted an error in vol 3, picture of a glob repeated twice, second time with caption as a galaxy NGC xxxx - will report back on the actual page ref.


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rmollise
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: core]
      #5864007 - 05/16/13 09:31 AM

There are more than a few errors, none of them fatal. And Dover is not likely to correct anything, even if they could.

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core
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: rmollise]
      #5865361 - 05/16/13 05:53 PM

Quote:

There are more than a few errors




Uncle Rod,

I meant errors in the Kindle edition compared to the print edition - eg, look at Vol III in the kindle sample, last couple of pages. There a pic of M15 with the M15 caption (pg 1384 in the print edition), and then for the next image it (kindle) uses the same M15 picture, with the Spiral Galaxy NGC 7331 caption (pg 1386 print edition). It's glaringly obvious, and hopefully it's not an indication that the rest of the books are riddled with such mistakes


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desertstars

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: core]
      #5866700 - 05/17/13 09:33 AM

One slip up doesn't imply the digital versions are riddle with errors, of course, but considering how little effort it would take to double check something as basic as image captions, that one is hard to excuse.

Having some experience, now, in the realm of ebook production, I have to agree that the prices set for these conversions are too high. But that does seem to be SOP for traditional publishers.


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derangedhermit
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: gmartin02]
      #5867170 - 05/17/13 01:12 PM

Quote:

B&N just added Nook editions of BCH, but only for Volumes 1 & 3 (see above) - $16.49 each. The Volume 3 preview is active, and it looks like the same format and hyperlink layout as the Kindle edition.[...]

Greg




Volume 2 is at B&N, it's just not listed correctly. You can find it by going to the page for Volume 1, and clicking on the Nook editions (2) and the list there will show Vol 1 and Vol 2. Clink onthe link to Vol 2, and it will take you to the correct page from which you can buy the book. The link that worked for me is BCH Vol 2 at B&N.

If there are on the web lists of errata, updated notes or locations, etc. for BCH (the printed volumes) I would much appreciate pointers to them. I intend to put them to use.

SAC has a BCH observing list, looks like Steve Coe put it together, at SAC dowloads page (see bottom) . If it's not already done, I will try to put it into ST3 format.


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gmartin02
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5868110 - 05/17/13 08:46 PM

Thanks Lee...the Nook set is also a few bucks cheaper than the Kindle set

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stevecoe
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: gmartin02]
      #5868843 - 05/18/13 06:26 AM

Dear Deranged; (how often do you get to say that??)

I don't know what ST3 format is, but the files I created are in Excel, text with comma delimit for database managers and text with a vertical fence for simple editors.

All the data was pulled out of SAC database version 8.1.

Hope that helps;
Steve Coe


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derangedhermit
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: stevecoe]
      #5869473 - 05/18/13 02:37 PM

Quote:

Dear Deranged; (how often do you get to say that??)

I don't know what ST3 format is, but the files I created are in Excel, text with comma delimit for database managers and text with a vertical fence for simple editors.

All the data was pulled out of SAC database version 8.1.

Hope that helps;
Steve Coe




Sorry, ST3 = Sky Tools 3. I know it has import functions, but I am a new user and haven't dug into them yet. I have downloaded the .xls file, and also the Burnhams_Doc.txt file that explains the spreadsheet.

Thank you for putting together this list, along with the many other contributions you have made to amateur astronomy.

Regards,
Deranged (Lee)

The user name comes from a Magic the Gathering playing card I was fond of, and also somewhat from Douglas Adams' Wonko the Sane character, and, well, I'll not say more.

BTW, I suspect you have observed more objects visually than almost anyone who has ever lived.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5869491 - 05/18/13 02:48 PM

Deranged,
What is that in your avatar? It looks like Frazetta (or Frazetta-inspired) art, but I can't make out what it is. Can you link me to the original, if it's online somewhere?
Thanks!


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derangedhermit
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5869504 - 05/18/13 02:51 PM

The epubs are huge, partly from the images that are images in the books, but also from the use of images of text and tables they did not want to manually enter. I am investigating fonts that may contain the needed Greek letters, probably a Unicode font with support at "Greek and Coptic" (U+0370 to U+03FF). I don't know if the Nook has a font internally with such support.

I suppose it is a good way to break down and finally learn the Greek alphabet.


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derangedhermit
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5869535 - 05/18/13 03:10 PM

Quote:

Deranged,
What is that in your avatar? It looks like Frazetta (or Frazetta-inspired) art, but I can't make out what it is. Can you link me to the original, if it's online somewhere?
Thanks!



It's from a Magic the Gathering game card. Wizards of the Coast - Deranged Hermit My son started playing at a very early age, 8 or 9, and was a whiz at actual game play. But he had problems with deck building. I got interested, and found he had a preference for huge, slow creatures. I saw an opportunity to explain the power of multiplying vs adding. "When Deranged Hermit enters the battlefield, put four 1/1 green Squirrel creature tokens onto the battlefield. Squirrel creatures get +1/+1." 1/1 is as weak as it gets, but whey you have a DH or two in play, and add another key card or two(also multiplicative in effect), our "Hermit" deck "went off" (exploded in power) on turn 3 or 4. Opponents laughed the first time they saw the early play, but then things got desperate for them in a hurry. By age 11 he was winning small local tournaments against open fields (grown men, hard-core gamers). I think (hope) my son stil has a DH signed by Richard Garfield, the game's creator.

And I like the picture, and the name sort of fits me.


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derangedhermit
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5869725 - 05/18/13 04:54 PM

Quote:

SAC has a BCH observing list, looks like Steve Coe put it together, at SAC dowloads page (see bottom) . If it's not already done, I will try to put it into ST3 format.



Burnham's objects are already available for download for Sky Tools 3 owners from the web site, so I don't need to do it immediately. At some point, I'll compare the lists.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5871517 - 05/19/13 01:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Deranged,
What is that in your avatar? It looks like Frazetta (or Frazetta-inspired) art, but I can't make out what it is. Can you link me to the original, if it's online somewhere?
Thanks!



It's from a Magic the Gathering game card. Wizards of the Coast - Deranged Hermit My son started playing at a very early age, 8 or 9, and was a whiz at actual game play. But he had problems with deck building. I got interested, and found he had a preference for huge, slow creatures. I saw an opportunity to explain the power of multiplying vs adding. "When Deranged Hermit enters the battlefield, put four 1/1 green Squirrel creature tokens onto the battlefield. Squirrel creatures get +1/+1." 1/1 is as weak as it gets, but whey you have a DH or two in play, and add another key card or two(also multiplicative in effect), our "Hermit" deck "went off" (exploded in power) on turn 3 or 4. Opponents laughed the first time they saw the early play, but then things got desperate for them in a hurry. By age 11 he was winning small local tournaments against open fields (grown men, hard-core gamers). I think (hope) my son stil has a DH signed by Richard Garfield, the game's creator.

And I like the picture, and the name sort of fits me.




Ah! Thanks.
The artist seems to have studied many Yes album covers and paperbacks with Frank Frazetta cover art. I like that style.


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derangedhermit
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5872537 - 05/19/13 09:31 PM

I have had a little time to look at the epub BCH volumes. I assume the Kindle format ones are basically the same. They are, by far, the 3 largest epubs I have, including "The Entire Works of..." by several authors. They are each around 70 MB, and typical epub size is 0.3 to 2 MB or so, although some exceed 10 MB.

There are of course a lot of images (that are photos in the printed version), but there are also images of all the tables and diagrams, and they take up about as much space as the photos do, particularly the tables at the beginning of each constellation. Also there are a lot of images of the finder drawings for the variable stars.

As for the photos themselves, they are scanned from a print edition of the book. The contrast is low, there are visible artifacts from the printing process in a number of the images, and they are low in detail. I don't know if the original photos are still available to the publisher. I do know that one day's work by someone with any modicum of Photoshop experience could get more out of what is there from all the images, and IMHO this is the least Dover could have done. Simply setting the black point and the white point based on the content of each image, I would say on average stretches the tonal range by 25% or more. In most images, midtones are almost completely absent.

However, even after you are through editing, the photos will remain unimpressive. More recent digital images would be a great improvement for those images that could be replaced in that way (a few cannot).

The tables simply need to be re-created in text form - as should have been done to begin with. This would improve the set's readability at different sizes and reduce each book by 20-25 MB.

The epub table of contents does not include each constellation as a chapter. You have to find what page the constellation starts on, and go to that page. A by-constellation epub TOC would be an improvement in navigation.

If anyone has questions about the epub (Nook, Sony, Kobo...) version of BCH, I'll try to answer.


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gmartin02
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5874534 - 05/20/13 07:57 PM

Quote:

The epub table of contents does not include each constellation as a chapter. You have to find what page the constellation starts on, and go to that page. A by-constellation epub TOC would be an improvement in navigation.




I just purchased the Nook versions of the books. Volume 1 does not have the constellations listed as chapters, but both Volume 2 & Volume 3 do have the constellations listed as chapters.

To get around the lack of constellation chapters in Volume 1, I added a note to each chapter heading in the book & saved it. Now, to get to the constellations, I just go to the note for the constellation I want.

I noticed a couple of things for chapter headings in Volume 1: The chapter heading for Apus is missing, so I just added a note to the first word of text - not perfect, but it gets me there.
2: The chapter heading for Aquila is incorrectly spelled as "Aouila" (probably an OCR issue).

Yes, these probably have a lot more problems, but I'm not going back. I'm already finding that using the Nook edition is a lot more convenient for me than the paper editions.

Another thing is it does take a little while to switch between books - these large file sizes take a little while to load. I also notice some lagginess sometimes when using the Nook books on my Samsung Galaxy Tab II 7.0 tablet (with the B&N Nook app) when moving to a completely different section on the book, but it eventually catches up. It loads & navigates much faster on my PC when using the B&N Nook application for PC.

Important note: B&N does not allow returns on Nook books, so cavat emptor.

Greg


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desertstars

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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: gmartin02]
      #5874767 - 05/20/13 09:47 PM

Doesn't sound like this one is quite ready for prime time.

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core
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: core]
      #5901041 - 06/04/13 02:08 AM Attachment (20 downloads)

Just came back from my first visit to Lowell Observatory, the least I could do was to pay a small digital tribute to the man himself, Robert Burnham, Jr. In just under 2 week's time, he would have been 82.

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Rick Woods
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: core]
      #5901069 - 06/04/13 02:29 AM

It's a beautiful monument, isn't it?

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StephAdministrator
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5901388 - 06/04/13 09:58 AM

Very nice, Peter, I love the phone w/digital Burnham's at the bottom!

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CelestronDaddy
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: core]
      #5902004 - 06/04/13 03:14 PM

Great picture Peter and very fitting with the digital version pulled up on the screen!

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core
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: CelestronDaddy]
      #5905246 - 06/06/13 04:17 AM Attachment (9 downloads)

Thanks all for the kind words; fwiw I'd thot a post/article about the memorial stated that it was situated between Jupiter and Saturn on the Pluto Walk (path up to the Pluto Discovery Telescope, where RBJ is pictured with) - turns out it's tucked between Uranus and Neptune.

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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: core]
      #5910091 - 06/08/13 04:53 PM

Thank you for sharing Peter.

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derangedhermit
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #5920975 - 06/14/13 05:29 PM

Seeing this plaque makes me both angry and sad. Here was a man who loved astronomy as few have before or since. The management at Lowell fired him, offering him only a janitor's position, the year after Dover published his Handbook. Dover never allowed any new editions to be printed. He discovered 6 comets; I've never seen a reference to him doing poor work during his 21 years at Lowell. He made an invaluable contribution to amateur astronomy in his Celestial Handbook. And he struggled to maintain himself as a member of society after he was out of a job.

Maybe he became a problem employee at Lowell, and they have never wanted to make that public. For Dover, I see no excuse, only a reason: that they thought they could make more money doing what they did.

I believe if he was allowed to continue to work in any role at Lowell that gave him some recognition as an astronomer, and continued access to the astronomical research materials that he absorbed like a sponge, and Dover had let him update his handbook and publish a new edition every several years, he could have lived exactly the full life he wanted, and was so wonderfully suited for. The result of that life would have been an even greater contribution to all astronomy. Here was an exceptional human being who needed a little help - and he didn't get it.

It's understandable, of course, if he was a problem at Lowell, although even then attempts to help him should have been made. I don't know if he was, or if there were.

Otherwise, if I was a manager at Lowell I would be embarrassed - shamed - by that plaque.

I hope that if anyone today becomes aware of someone who has made a special contribution to amateur astronomy and is in need, they will bring that need to the attention of the community. May we respond well.


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core
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5921681 - 06/15/13 03:32 AM

I know there's at least another thread dealing with RBJr, so I'll keep this short - here's the excellent investigative article that Tony Ortega did "Sky Writer" that covers alot of the back story to the man's life - iirc Tony was one of the speaker's at the RBJr memorial ceremony.

To the right of the plaque, along a row of plants there is a series of small metal staked signs with the names/positions of various Lowell employees throughout the years, no indication of their actual dates at Lowell though. Did not take a pic of that though.

On a side note (and I'll be posting it somewhere else on CN) - if you can make it to Lowell this summer, PLEASE DO! The 24" Clark will be taken "off-line" for public use starting sometime in Aug/Sept for its first restoration project. On paper it's suppose to take ~9months, but I was told expect much longer than that.


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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5922541 - 06/15/13 04:55 PM

Quote:

Seeing this plaque makes me both angry and sad. Here was a man who loved astronomy as few have before or since. The management at Lowell fired him, offering him only a janitor's position, the year after Dover published his Handbook. Dover never allowed any new editions to be printed. He discovered 6 comets; I've never seen a reference to him doing poor work during his 21 years at Lowell. He made an invaluable contribution to amateur astronomy in his Celestial Handbook. And he struggled to maintain himself as a member of society after he was out of a job.

Maybe he became a problem employee at Lowell, and they have never wanted to make that public. For Dover, I see no excuse, only a reason: that they thought they could make more money doing what they did.

I believe if he was allowed to continue to work in any role at Lowell that gave him some recognition as an astronomer, and continued access to the astronomical research materials that he absorbed like a sponge, and Dover had let him update his handbook and publish a new edition every several years, he could have lived exactly the full life he wanted, and was so wonderfully suited for. The result of that life would have been an even greater contribution to all astronomy. Here was an exceptional human being who needed a little help - and he didn't get it.

It's understandable, of course, if he was a problem at Lowell, although even then attempts to help him should have been made. I don't know if he was, or if there were.

Otherwise, if I was a manager at Lowell I would be embarrassed - shamed - by that plaque.

I hope that if anyone today becomes aware of someone who has made a special contribution to amateur astronomy and is in need, they will bring that need to the attention of the community. May we respond well.






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amicus sidera
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5922916 - 06/15/13 09:56 PM

Quote:

Seeing this plaque makes me both angry and sad.




My feelings, as well.


Quote:

Here was an exceptional human being who needed a little help - and he didn't get it.




One can only wonder as to what has been lost to the world in general, for lack of but a relative pittance of nurture.


A few months ago, posts seeking alms for restoration of the 26" refractor at Lowell were posted in the Classic Telescopes forum, and I had (at least according to certain members of CN) the audacity to suggest making any charitable giving contingent upon Mr. Burnham's memory being prioritized by the organization. One can follow the exchange of pleasantries here and here.

Fred


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jrbarnett
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital new [Re: mtnmedic]
      #5930252 - 06/19/13 10:46 PM

Question: I don't "Kindle" though I have the Kindle reader app on my iPad and my Galaxy Tab. If I purchase the Kindle edition of BCH, is it stored in the cloud so that I can DL it to any Kindle-equipped device I own, or is it tied to a specific Kindle-apped device?

Thanks in advance for your guidance,

Jim


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jrbarnett
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5930264 - 06/19/13 10:51 PM

Fred, I surprised they need to beg funds from we great unwashed. Discovery Network paid for their last big telescope and observatory project, and I believe they have multiple wealthy donors in tow.

Personally I feel a tribute/monument to Burnham someplace other than Lowell might be more...respectful.

- Jim


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stevecoe
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5930546 - 06/20/13 02:38 AM

Jim;

Maybe the tribute to Burnham is the large number of his books that are read and enjoyed by many viewers of the sky. Even when they are read electronically;-)

Clear skies;
Steve Coe


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BoriSpider
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: stevecoe]
      #5930616 - 06/20/13 05:02 AM

Jim, I believe the ebooks are account specific not device specific. So it should show up in all apps. You might not be able to read the same book at the same time on 2 different devices.

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rockethead26
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5930719 - 06/20/13 07:40 AM

Quote:

Discovery Network paid for their last big telescope and observatory project, and I believe they have multiple wealthy donors in tow.

- Jim




Actually, John Hendricks and Discovery Communications only contributed $16 million of the $53 M cost. The rest came from the Lowell trust, private donors and smaller amounts from the 3 partnership universities.

I think it's pretty incredible that they built it without any government funding. Looking forward to some real results from the DCT.

Edited by rockethead26 (06/20/13 12:31 PM)


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jrbarnett
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: BoriSpider]
      #5931078 - 06/20/13 11:01 AM

In my case it may even be a little more complicated since I'm cross platform (both Android and iOS devices). Thanks for the tip. I think I'll first try it on the Samsung tablet since that is a mount-dedicated Sky Safari device now (i.e., it gets used only in the field for directing GOTO mounts via bluetooth).

Regards,

Jim


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amicus sidera
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5931256 - 06/20/13 01:04 PM

Quote:

Fred, I surprised they need to beg funds from we great unwashed. Discovery Network paid for their last big telescope and observatory project, and I believe they have multiple wealthy donors in tow.

Personally I feel a tribute/monument to Burnham someplace other than Lowell might be more...respectful.

- Jim




I was a bit taken aback by the solicitation, as well; not only did I feel that it was a completely inappropriate use the forum, but knowing the deep pockets which that institution has historically has access to also gave me pause.

As for a tribute to Burnham at another location, I'm in complete agreement with you, Jim... a modest marker at his birthplace, or perhaps the ocean walk where he spent some of his last days, would be in order. For that matter, why limit any such remembrance to one place? Every club observatory that I've visited (a considerable number) contains the three volumes of the Handbook in their library; at one time it was the premier reference in such establishments, as well as a steady observing companion. There would surely be enough wall space to place something similar to that on the Lowell walk in every such observatory. It needn't be bronze; a small framed printout would do.

Burnham's work played a considerable role in the career of many amateurs, and his writings still echo today; however, the current ever-increasing rapidity of progress (if one chooses to call it that) in amateur astronomy threatens to leave such works in the dusts of time. While a modest tribute to Burnham in every astronomical location in the country is unlikely, we should remember that we dispense with the past at our peril.

Fred


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Tom Polakis
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5941764 - 06/26/13 05:07 PM

Quote:

Fred, I surprised they need to beg funds from we great unwashed. Discovery Network paid for their last big telescope and observatory project, and I believe they have multiple wealthy donors in tow.




As was pointed out, Discovery paid for about 30% of the DCT. Yes, Lowell Observatory has some wealthy donors, but they were not lining up to pay for the Clark Telescope restoration. They are a private institution that is not basking in funds. Both of the large Phoenix astronomy clubs were happy to donate $1000 each to the cause of restoring the telescope.

Since Lowell astronomers, including the current director, have spoken at Saguaro Astronomy Club meetings many times, I can report that the last thing they think about amateur astronomers as is unwashed.



Quote:

Personally I feel a tribute/monument to Burnham someplace other than Lowell might be more...respectful.




While Burnham may mean a lot to us, he is not the face of Lowell Observatory. Rather, he was an employee who's employment ceased when the project he was working on ended. I was impressed that Lowell was as open-minded as they were to our proposal to put the memorial on their grounds. They cooperated with my wife Jennifer in every way when she was managing the memorial project.

Burnham certainly has no relationship to the Clark refractor, so there's no connection between Lowell's fundraising efforts and him.

It seems like some folks may be getting carried away regarding Burnham's contributions to Lowell Observatory. He is being paid an appropriate amount of respect by the existing memorial.

Tom


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Matthew Ota
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5945721 - 06/28/13 10:22 PM

Management at observatories can be as #$%#@ as management in society as a whole. Burnham is one of many who have been fired from observatories.

The legendary astroniomer James Westphal once took one of his gadgets to a management meeting at Caltech. He placed it on a table and said "This is how I view management. It was a small box wit a switch on it. He flipped the switch, and a little hand and arm came out of the box and shut the switch off. Westphal was never required to attend a management meeting after that....

Quote:

Seeing this plaque makes me both angry and sad. Here was a man who loved astronomy as few have before or since. The management at Lowell fired him, offering him only a janitor's position, the year after Dover published his Handbook. Dover never allowed any new editions to be printed. He discovered 6 comets; I've never seen a reference to him doing poor work during his 21 years at Lowell. He made an invaluable contribution to amateur astronomy in his Celestial Handbook. And he struggled to maintain himself as a member of society after he was out of a job.

Maybe he became a problem employee at Lowell, and they have never wanted to make that public. For Dover, I see no excuse, only a reason: that they thought they could make more money doing what they did.

I believe if he was allowed to continue to work in any role at Lowell that gave him some recognition as an astronomer, and continued access to the astronomical research materials that he absorbed like a sponge, and Dover had let him update his handbook and publish a new edition every several years, he could have lived exactly the full life he wanted, and was so wonderfully suited for. The result of that life would have been an even greater contribution to all astronomy. Here was an exceptional human being who needed a little help - and he didn't get it.

It's understandable, of course, if he was a problem at Lowell, although even then attempts to help him should have been made. I don't know if he was, or if there were.

Otherwise, if I was a manager at Lowell I would be embarrassed - shamed - by that plaque.

I hope that if anyone today becomes aware of someone who has made a special contribution to amateur astronomy and is in need, they will bring that need to the attention of the community. May we respond well.




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droid
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: Matthew Ota]
      #5947656 - 06/30/13 08:20 AM

This has been hashed out a few times here at CN, this thread here from the stellar media:

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Board/books/Number/...


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amicus sidera
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Re: Burnham's Celestial Handbook - Digital @Lowell new [Re: droid]
      #5947859 - 06/30/13 11:05 AM

Quote:

This has been hashed out a few times here at CN, this thread here from the stellar media:

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Board/books/Number/...




Many thanks for posting a link to that thread, Andy; I was unaware of its existence.

The commentary contained therein did an excellent job of bringing many issues concerning Burnham and Lowell into clearer focus, enhanced my admiration and respect for certain posters, and utterly confirmed my suspicions regarding several others.

Fred


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