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Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all) Rick Woods Postmaster Reged: 01/27/05 Loc: Inner Solar System "UFO's - A Scientific Debate"       #4464179 - 03/21/11 01:39 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I just picked up this book, and I'm now close to halfway through it. It is the proceedings of a symposium held in December 1969 by the American Association for the Advancement of Science, right after the Condon report was issued and Project Bluebook was cancelled. The editors are Carl Sagan and Thornton Page, both of whom also gave presentations. I haven't gotten to Sagan's paper yet so I don't know what his take is; but other presenting scientists include William Hartmann, Lester Grinspoon, Frank Drake, J. Allen Hynek, Donald Menzel, and a lot more. I expected this to be a scientific expose of the UFO culture, with natural explanations of the phenomena. Wrong! It is extremely scientific, to be sure; but so far, the opinion of all the scientists, who went back and examined the source files submitted to Bluebook and interviewed the principals, is that the Condon Report is a complete cluster-boink; that irrational arguments were used to dismiss important, unexplained events; and that the Air Force was completely incompetent in its handling of the investigation. This, in concert with its (the Air Force's) assurances that the best minds available had examined evertyhing exhaustively, discouraged anyone from conducting further investigations. The charge is utter incompetence, not cover-up. More than one scientist so far has stated baldly that the extraterrestrial hypothesis is the most likely to be true given the information available, and that there is a very real issue here that is being ignored by the Air Force. Large parts of the testimony given were left out of the Condon Report, and many cases were closed as unsolved. The objects were marked identified as unidentified! Very detailed examination of the original files is presented. The book I have is a 1996 B&N reprint of the original 1972 book published by Cornell University. It is not at all what I expected it to be. I very highly recommend it to anyone with any interest at all in UFO's. Unless you've already made up your mind irrevokably, this book may contain something that will get you to thinking seriously about this issue. My mind has always been open on the subject; it's been opened a lot more by this book! The book number is ISBN 0-76070-196-2. Post Extras:       blb Post Laureate Reged: 11/25/05 Loc: Piedmont NC Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: Rick Woods]       #4464471 - 03/21/11 03:49 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   There is a lot that is unexplained throughout our history. All one has to do is come to the facts with an open mind. But I think a lot of what is attributed to be a UFO is an unexplained natural phenomenon. But there are still sightings or happenings that are unexplained even with the unknown natural phenomenon sightings. This subject seems to polarize people. I don't know why we can't discuss this rationally in a calm maner. Anyway the question I have is that if ET has been comming here throughout history, WHY and WHY has he not come out in the open? Post Extras:       GeneT Ely Kid Reged: 11/07/08 Loc: South Texas Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: Rick Woods]       #4464514 - 03/21/11 04:07 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Are you a believer? Post Extras:       Rick Woods Postmaster Reged: 01/27/05 Loc: Inner Solar System Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: GeneT]       #4464522 - 03/21/11 04:13 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: Are you a believer? What do you mean, "believer"? Post Extras:       Rick Woods Postmaster Reged: 01/27/05 Loc: Inner Solar System Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: blb]       #4464546 - 03/21/11 04:24 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: There is a lot that is unexplained throughout our history. All one has to do is come to the facts with an open mind. But I think a lot of what is attributed to be a UFO is an unexplained natural phenomenon. But there are still sightings or happenings that are unexplained even with the unknown natural phenomenon sightings. This subject seems to polarize people. I don't know why we can't discuss this rationally in a calm maner. Anyway the question I have is that if ET has been comming here throughout history, WHY and WHY has he not come out in the open? Buddy, The exceptionally technical treatment of the subject, and the impressive credentials of the participants in the symposium, are the things that strike me here. I'm not taking sides on the issue - I just don't know. I've never seen a UFO. But, this book is a serious work by some serious people, and not just another woo-woo alien abduction/memory regression/Channeling the Spirits of Atlantis sensationalist publication. To be informed, one needs to read the serious literature. Anyone who genuinely wonders about this issue ought to read this book. I suspect there are papers in it that I haven't gotten to yet, that are not supportive of the ET hypothesis. There really isn't very much ET talk in it. The main thrust so far seems to be the slipshod way the Air Force bungled their investigation, and a lot of digging into the raw Bluebook files for additional information. Post Extras:       cliff mygatt Pooh-Bah Reged: 01/27/09 Loc: Kitsap County, WA Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: Rick Woods]       #4464672 - 03/21/11 05:26 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Sounds like a good read! In Phil Plait's book, "Bad Astronomy" he comments about UFOs that I find very telling. He states he knows hundreds of amateur astronomers and not one of them has ever claimed to see a UFO! Why? Because amateurs astronomers know the night sky and understand the phenomena that the night sky offers! Post Extras:       Matthew Ota Hmmm Reged: 04/30/05 Loc: IngleHood, California Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: cliff mygatt]       #4464693 - 03/21/11 05:37 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Science is based on empirical evidence, and to this very day, NO empirical evidence of UFOs being alien flying saucers exists, no matter how many claim it to be. Post Extras:       Rick Woods Postmaster Reged: 01/27/05 Loc: Inner Solar System Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: cliff mygatt]       #4464703 - 03/21/11 05:42 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: He states he knows hundreds of amateur astronomers and not one of them has ever claimed to see a UFO! I find that really hard to believe, simply because it seems like almost everyone (except me!) has seen a UFO. I suspect he never asked any of them. Post Extras:       Rick Woods Postmaster Reged: 01/27/05 Loc: Inner Solar System Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: Matthew Ota]       #4464715 - 03/21/11 05:53 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: Science is based on empirical evidence, and to this very day, NO empirical evidence of UFOs being alien flying saucers exists, no matter how many claim it to be. I guess that depends on what you accept as empirical evidence. I don't personally know of any, for whatever that's worth. But then, I'm not one of the people that would be brought in on anything like that, either. I know several people who claim to be abductees; but none of them has ever been able to produce a shred of proof that it was anything more than a dream. However, there seems to be enough hard evidence to prove that something strange is going on. Most of the cases covered so far in this book were witnessed by on-duty military personnel, and there were corroborative radar and visual sightings and descriptions from the ground and air. I'm now reading Donald Menzel's presentation. He is absolutely skeptical, and feels there is nothing to any of it beyond natural phenomena. He uses a derisive, sarcastic approach to the presentations of others, and is less than convincing. However, he makes good points as well. Post Extras:       Rick Woods Postmaster Reged: 01/27/05 Loc: Inner Solar System Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: Rick Woods]       #4464830 - 03/21/11 06:36 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Well, if nothing else, this has prompted me to order a copy of the Condon Report so I can come to my own conclusions as to its sloppiness or lack thereof. Post Extras:       GeneT Ely Kid Reged: 11/07/08 Loc: South Texas Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: Rick Woods]       #4465168 - 03/21/11 09:40 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   In UFO's. Post Extras:       Rick Woods Postmaster Reged: 01/27/05 Loc: Inner Solar System Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: GeneT]       #4465322 - 03/21/11 10:48 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: In UFO's. I still don't know what you mean. Do I believe people actually see unexplained aerial phenomena? Of course. Do I believe aliens are visiting Earth? I tend not to, just because of what I perceive as the difficulties involved. An advanced species could have overcome these difficulties, true; but this is high speculation, and to me does not pass the Occam's Razor test until other, less sensational explanations have been eliminated. One possibility I haven't seen discussed yet in the book is military black projects. Many of these reports occur on military bases; however, if a top secret new system were being tested, they would not have been notified of it. Inside, I feel this is the most likely explanation for most of the really unexplained events. But I've been wrong before, and I'm always open to new evidence. I came away totally unconvinced by Menzel's smug dismissal of the issue, and the completely non-sequitur examples he cited. Very heavy on sarcasm and derision, and light on hard facts. Post Extras:       helpwanted Post Laureate Reged: 07/04/07 Loc: Phoenix, AZ Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: Rick Woods]       #4465417 - 03/21/11 11:58 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   okay, i have a huge problem with people believing they see UFO or alien spaceships when they see "lights in the sky". i have never hear what i am about to type on the news, or from any govt agency trying to explain reports, so this is my own theory... the "lights in the sky"... Airplanes have lights, for landing and so other airplanes don't fly into each other. In fact, it's an FAA requirement (or even a law) that airplanes have lights. In fact, all countries in the world have the same laws, that airplanes have lights on them. so if aliens are coming all the way to earth, and since they are not landing on the White House lawn and talking to reporters, they must be watching us, or spying on us... so why do they fear the FAA so much that they turn on lights so they don't get a fine? and don't tell me they use the lights to look at the ground, since if they have the technology to fly through the stars, they probably have night vision also, like we already have. if you see a local news report about people seeing "lights in the sky" that must be aliens, it's time to turn off the TV and take the scope outside! Post Extras:       helpwanted Post Laureate Reged: 07/04/07 Loc: Phoenix, AZ Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: helpwanted]       #4465418 - 03/21/11 11:59 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   oh... but i do believe in Bigfoot, but that's for another thread! Post Extras:       Rick Woods Postmaster Reged: 01/27/05 Loc: Inner Solar System Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: helpwanted]       #4465535 - 03/22/11 02:15 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I'm guessing you won't be reading the book... Post Extras:       GeneT Ely Kid Reged: 11/07/08 Loc: South Texas Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: Rick Woods]       #4465883 - 03/22/11 09:40 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I am keeping an open mind to the possibility that UFOs and other intelligent life has visited earth. I do approach this topic from a skeptics point of view. However, I am open to the idea. Someday we may all be presented with absolute proof. That has not happened yet, in my opinion. Post Extras:       swalker Imaging Editor - Sky & Telescope Reged: 01/22/07 Loc: 42.9225°N, 71.2242°W Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: GeneT]       #4466029 - 03/22/11 10:56 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I remain skeptical. I do believe there is life elsewhere in the universe, probably lots of it. Do I think they've visited Earth? i doubt it. Every time the subject comes up, I chuckle to myself, remembering the 1996 episode of the Simpsons where Homer is abducted by Kang and Kodos, who have also taken Clinton and Dole and are impersonating them during the elections. They release Homer after spraying him with a liquid. Homer asks "what are you spraying me with?" Kodos repies "Rum! Now no one will believe you! HAHAHAHA!" Post Extras:       sirchz super member Reged: 09/21/09 Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: blb]       #4466344 - 03/22/11 01:14 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: ... Anyway the question I have is that if ET has been comming here throughout history, WHY and WHY has he not come out in the open? ET is simply following the Prime Directive. Post Extras:       Rick Woods Postmaster Reged: 01/27/05 Loc: Inner Solar System Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: GeneT]       #4466463 - 03/22/11 02:01 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: I am keeping an open mind to the possibility that UFOs and other intelligent life has visited earth. I do approach this topic from a skeptics point of view. However, I am open to the idea. Someday we may all be presented with absolute proof. That has not happened yet, in my opinion. That's pretty much where I'm coming from. Space visitors is pretty far down my list of probabilities, but I also acknowledge that there's plenty I don't know. Secret military testing still seems the most reasonable explanation for those sightings that are so solid that they can't be explained by hoax, imagination, misinterpretation of natural phenomena, etc. (But then, what are they keeping under wraps at Area 51? ) I'm almost finished with this book. I sort of skimmed Lester Grinspoon's paper, which was very Freudian and emphasized the cigar (phallic) and circular (breast) shapes of the UFO's. I just couldn't get with his program. Guess I'm not as open minded as I thought! Sean, are Kang and Kodos (I love it!) the one-eyed octopus guys? Post Extras:       swalker Imaging Editor - Sky & Telescope Reged: 01/22/07 Loc: 42.9225°N, 71.2242°W Re: "UFO's - A Scientific Debate" [Re: Rick Woods]       #4466483 - 03/22/11 02:16 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Hi Rick- yup, that's them. Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos! Post Extras:       Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)

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