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Equipment Discussions >> Cats & Casses

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pogobbler
member


Reged: 09/30/08
Posts: 31
Who are these people...
      #3423079 - 11/01/09 01:22 AM

that say their SCT keeps fine collimation for months or years at a time? I could understand if it was permanently mounted, I suppose, but if it's moved around here and there it's just completely out of my experience. I've got a C9.25 and had a C8 in the past and, though I don't abuse them, I find the collimation could at least use a bit of tweaking each time I set it up. I do fine collimation at 470X or 940x with the C9.25" if the seeing permits and try to do the best I can once the scope is cooled down, though the seeing rarely permits me to be sure of absolutely perfect collimation-- though I figure if I get as close as the seeing allows, I'll be able to see all the I can through the limited seeing. Are others not as critical or are the some "super SCTs" that hold their collimation exceptionally well?

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Frank
member


Reged: 01/18/09
Posts: 57
Loc: Netherlands
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: pogobbler]
      #3423092 - 11/01/09 01:52 AM

My C6 holds collimation pretty well, but my C14 needs a tweak every time I've moved it aroud. I do not have a permanent set-up, so this is evry time I start a session (unfortunately).

--------------------
Celestron CGE1400 XLT
C6 XLT
Vixen 6" F5.0 Newton
WO Zenithstar 80 FD


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skybsd
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 603
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: pogobbler]
      #3423203 - 11/01/09 06:18 AM

Hi,
You didn't comment on exactly what is involved in your setting up, so I can't comment on whether or not your storage, moving, set-up and breakdown is a factor in your case.

I guess I sort fall into that category.

My C-6 XLT and C-14 XLT Fastar DO hold collimation very well - and I do check each time I head out.

That said, my C-9.25 XLT does get tweaked more than the other two, BUT.., that may be due to: -

a] I tend to use the C-9.25 XLT far more than the other two

or

b] My C-9.25 XLT has Bobs Knobs installed

c] Both

But even so, the C-9.25 XLT only ever seems to needs a tweak every 5 - 6 months or so - and there have been occasions where I KNOW I was being anal about what I was attempting to acheive, and made a hash of it.

For all three scopes, I use a Televue 10mm Radian for collimation.

Regards,

skybsd


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Luigi
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 4947
Loc: MA
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: skybsd]
      #3423228 - 11/01/09 06:42 AM

>>>that say their SCT keeps fine collimation for months or years at a time<<<

Dunno. I touched up the collimation on my C11 every time I set it up, and occasionally several times a night.

--------------------
17.5" f/5 Dob. IM-715 MCT. 120ED. Lunt 60mm Ha.
Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell bins


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Lane
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Luigi]
      #3423261 - 11/01/09 07:09 AM

My C11 has to be collimated about 3 times a night.
My C9.25 has to be collimated one time a night.
My C8 has to be collimated about 1 time a month.
My C6 was collimtated 1 time period.

The collimation for all of these is usually no more than a 1/8 turn of one or two of collimation knobs. Most people would probably not even notice it that much but I am just very picky about maintaining perfect collimation all the time.

If I did not have Bob's Knobs on these scopes I am not sure I would collimate this much either. Those knobs make the process so fast and easy that I don't mind doing it. I have it down now to about a 20 second process.

The issue causing all this re-collimation seems to be directly related to the size of the mirror and its ability to shift around. The C11 has the worst problem. I can see now that having a C11 or an ALT-AZ mount would probably be much better than having it on a CGEM. The CGEM can flip it into some pretty weird angles.

--------------------
Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80


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deSitter
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Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: pogobbler]
      #3423274 - 11/01/09 07:23 AM

Quote:

that say their SCT keeps fine collimation for months or years at a time? I could understand if it was permanently mounted, I suppose, but if it's moved around here and there it's just completely out of my experience. I've got a C9.25 and had a C8 in the past and, though I don't abuse them, I find the collimation could at least use a bit of tweaking each time I set it up. I do fine collimation at 470X or 940x with the C9.25" if the seeing permits and try to do the best I can once the scope is cooled down, though the seeing rarely permits me to be sure of absolutely perfect collimation-- though I figure if I get as close as the seeing allows, I'll be able to see all the I can through the limited seeing. Are others not as critical or are the some "super SCTs" that hold their collimation exceptionally well?




No scope of any kind, other than an ultra-transportable multi-section Dob, should regularly come out of alignment. My Newtonian has been collimated once in 5 months, when I made a needed modification of the secondary stalk. It's odd how people have learned to tolerate bad mechanics! Usually the problem is readily identifiable and easy to fix with shimming/tighening.

-drl


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Lane
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: deSitter]
      #3423287 - 11/01/09 07:40 AM

Apples and oranges - That is an alt-az dob not an SCT and you are apparently not transporting it anyplace either.

Unlike an SCT the mirror in your dob is not held in place by a small central grease covered tube, it is held by a sturdy mirror cell. So I am sure it can maintain collimation a very long time.

But try tossing it in the back your car and driving 90 miles, the last 6 of which are on a banged up dirt road leading to a dark site. You wil be collimating all the time too.

--------------------
Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80


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skybsd
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 603
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Lane]
      #3423297 - 11/01/09 07:57 AM

Hi,
So.., I did qualify with the OP that I could not comment on what their storage, set-up and breakdown is like - reason being that if folks are "tossing it in the back your car and driving 90 miles", then of course it'd be necessary to check, and more than likely tune collimation each time you do that.

My OTAs are all stored indoors in their respective ScopeGuard cases or padded storage units, and get taken out each time for acclimation. After setting up my mounts 20 yards away along the garden, they then get mounted to further acclimatize until my viewing time arrives, when I always begin by checking collimation.

Breakdown at the end is pretty much the reverse of my set up routine.

No tossing, banging, bumping or rolling required - therefore, at least on my scopes, even though I always check (out of habit) I do not need to touch / adjust collimation every_single_time I go out.

Regards,

skybsd


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skybsd
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 603
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Lane]
      #3423300 - 11/01/09 08:03 AM

Hi,

Quote:


<<snipped>>
If I did not have Bob's Knobs on these scopes I am not sure I would collimate this much either. Those knobs make the process so fast and easy that I don't mind doing it. I have it down now to about a 20 second process.
<<snipped>>





Strange how perceptions differ.

To me, I've always been suspicious of the fact that the only scope of mine that I find needs collimation relatively more than the others is actually the one scope of mine with Bobs Knobs installed - go figure.

Regards,

skybsd


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Al Miller
sage


Reged: 08/25/08
Posts: 415
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: pogobbler]
      #3423315 - 11/01/09 08:25 AM

I rarely, if ever need to collimate my SCT's. The only Newtonian I have at the present is the XT8 Dob. that I have to adjust every time I take it out. The SCT's aren't permanently mounted and don't get banged around much though. My C8 is in a Pelican case that's well padded and my LX200 is on a hand-cart when not in use. The cart makes treks across my yard with some bumps along the way but, I rarely have to adjust collimation. I'm very careful in transporting them, and I check the collimation before each use with a high magnification eyepiece. The LX200 even fell about 15 inches once and hit the ground on its rear end. Even then the collimation was off by "just a hair". Granted, I'll state that the SCT's don't see as much use as the refractors since I mainly use CCD's to image and enhance observing from my moderately light-polluted site.

--------------------
Meade 10" LX200 Classic
Celestron C8 XLT OTA
Orion XT8 Classic Dob.
Meade AR-5, f/9.3 refractor OTA (LXD55 version)
Antares 4.1", f/12.4 refractor w/EQ5
Orion 110ED, f/7 refractor OTA
Orion ST120, f/5 refractor OTA
Orion ST80, f/5 refractor OTA (guidescope)
Meade DSIc, DSI IIc and DSI II Pro
Celestron NexImage (x2)
Orion StarShoot autoguider
Atlas EQ-G mount


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Paul G
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 2280
Loc: Freedonia
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: pogobbler]
      #3423318 - 11/01/09 08:26 AM

I bought my C11 at a time when they were known for not keeping collimation. Company 7 rejected a couple for this reason, another for optical problems, finally got a good one for me. It held collimation very well. We took it out of collimation at the shop, then re-coliimated it with a 5 micron, then a 1 micron star, and it held collimation very well thereafter. I checked it every observing night, had to tweak it every 6 to 12 months.

My scope was an exceptional example, and it also never got banged around, it rode in a cushy car seat on smooth roads. I also never tried to chase its minor mirror flop with collimation.

A friend had a Meade 8" that needed collimation every night; it had a lot of mirror flop as well and didn't seem to be made very "tight."

I guess it depends in part on what one is used to using. When I was shopping for a minivan I test drove the new Ford and it rattled like an old tin can. I mentioned it to the dealer and he said, "All minivans rattle." A couple of weeks later I parked next to a new Ford minivan at a shopping center, asked the owner if it rattled, and he said, "All minivans rattle." I bought a Honda minivan and it never rattled once.

--------------------
Gus

Tasco 4.5 Reflector EQ Telescope


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rmollise
Post Laureate
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Reged: 07/06/07
Posts: 4598
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: pogobbler]
      #3423365 - 11/01/09 09:08 AM

Quote:

that say their SCT keeps fine collimation for months or years at a time? I could understand if it was permanently mounted, I suppose, but if it's moved around here and there it's just completely out of my experience. I've got a C9.25 and had a C8 in the past and, though I don't abuse them, I find the collimation could at least use a bit of tweaking each time I set it up. I do fine collimation at 470X or 940x with the C9.25" if the seeing permits and try to do the best I can once the scope is cooled down, though the seeing rarely permits me to be sure of absolutely perfect collimation-- though I figure if I get as close as the seeing allows, I'll be able to see all the I can through the limited seeing. Are others not as critical or are the some "super SCTs" that hold their collimation exceptionally well?




It's not the SCTs, pardner...I gotta say...it's you.

If your SCT needs to be adjusted every time, examine your procedure. Do you always collimate ONLY by tightening screws? Only if your screw is snug, should you loosen other screws to enable you to keep moving the original screw. Snug good, loose bad collimation wise.

--------------------
Uncle Rod

Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using a New CAT
Available now!


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Lane
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Paul G]
      #3423374 - 11/01/09 09:11 AM

I think very few people chase the minor mirror flop with collimation, but I do. It just depends on your tolerance level I suppose. By the way, there is just a layer of grease in there keeping the mirror from shifting around nothing mechanical to prevent the movement. I think my C11 moves more than it should because some of my grease liquified recently and got on my corrector plate. If I opened it up and put in fresh grease I could probably reduce the movement considerably.

As far as Bobs Knobs are concerned I don't collimate any more than I did before I got them. I got them because I found I do like to keep the scope in perfect collimation and it is much easier to do with knobs. With my old Meade 8 sct I collimated one time a year just because I hated collimating. I could see that the stars were not perfect but just ignored it. I simply have a different attitude about it now.

I still haven't really figured out why people think Bob's knobs are any different from the original knobs. The threads are the same, the only difference is the head is big enough to turn with your fingers instead of a hex wrench or screwdriver. So I cannot see what the problem is suppose to be. Some scopes do require nylon washers to use bobs knobs and some do not but those washers can easily be replaced with steel ones if that is the concern. From what I can tell nylon washers do not crush like rubber they are almost as strong as the steel.

--------------------
Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80


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Paul G
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Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 2280
Loc: Freedonia
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Lane]
      #3423433 - 11/01/09 09:49 AM

I never tried Bobs Knobs, but since I didn't need to tweak much I was happy with the old fashioned method. My Mak-Cass is permanently collimated, so now I'm spoiled.

--------------------
Gus

Tasco 4.5 Reflector EQ Telescope


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MitchAlsup
super member


Reged: 08/31/09
Posts: 186
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Lane]
      #3423473 - 11/01/09 10:18 AM

Quote:

My C11 has to be collimated about 3 times a night.
My C9.25 has to be collimated one time a night.
My C8 has to be collimated about 1 time a month.
My C6 was collimtated 1 time period.





My C11 (U11 actually circa 1990) is a little picky about collimation. It holds reasonably well, but there are only about 3 times per year when the skies are good enough to dial it in perfectly. When performing that last little tween of collimation, I only add pressure to the allen wrench without really feeling it move and then back the pressure down. Somehow, what I cannot feel, shows up on the optical surface. The actual movement is far less than 1 degree onthe allen screw/wrench.

My friends C8 (circa 1985) has not been collimated in 20 years and everytime we check, it remains perfect.


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DesertRat
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/06
Posts: 665
Loc: Valley of the Sun
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: MitchAlsup]
      #3423496 - 11/01/09 10:33 AM

My 1999 C11 with Bobs knobs needs collimation with every use, and again on meridian flip. I think later editions were improved as commented earlier. My 2009 C14 holds collimation very well as does my IM715.

Glenn

--------------------
Brandon 94mm f7, Televue TV102 f8.6; GM8
Baader Wedge & Filters, Coronado SM90/BF30
IM715; C11 & C14; G-11 Gemini


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bcuddihee
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/04/06
Posts: 1402
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: DesertRat]
      #3423541 - 11/01/09 10:55 AM

I think that you can snug down the stock screws much tighter than with the hand tightening procedure with Bobs Knobs. My C8 holds collimation very well.
bc

--------------------
B Cuddihee

--------------------------
1968 Jason Empire 60X700mm refractor (my buddy from way back)
Celestron Nexstar8SE aka "The Bumblebee",(there is no way this scope should perform as well as it does...but it does)
Feathertouch Microfocuser
Stellarvue 50mm "Sparrowhawk" finder
Denk bino's with Power x switch
Pair of Smart Astronomy 19 EF's (great ep's for binos)
Pair of Edmund 28 plossls
Pair of Edmund 28 RKE'S
Pair of tv 20mm plossls





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Lane
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #3423662 - 11/01/09 12:07 PM

What causes the issue is not the secondary or the screws that adjust the secondary. The problem is with the primary moving around. I think the people who are assuming that bob's knobs are somehow related to the problem of having to collimate more ofter are mistaken. It is simply that the primary is not fixed in one place as it is in a Mak or a Dob.

--------------------
Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80


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Luigi
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 4947
Loc: MA
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Lane]
      #3423678 - 11/01/09 12:18 PM

>>>only about 3 times per year when the skies are good enough<<<

With a star centered, I dither the focuser very slightly through focus and watch the dancing blob expand and contract, independent of seeing. If it expands symmetrically, it's good. If it expands toward ones side, I adjust the secondary to shift the image in that direction and try again.

Using this method you can tell if the scope is collimated every time you focus when viewing at higher magnification. This generally leads to more frequent touching up of the collimation.

Works on Newts too.

--------------------
17.5" f/5 Dob. IM-715 MCT. 120ED. Lunt 60mm Ha.
Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell bins


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Lane
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Luigi]
      #3423708 - 11/01/09 12:32 PM

Luigi - good explanation - thats how I do it too. This idea that you have to see perfect diffraction rings to collimate is totally wrong. If that was true I could never even do the first collimation of the night since I do that one before the scope has cooled down properly.

--------------------
Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80


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rmollise
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Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Lane]
      #3423847 - 11/01/09 02:12 PM

Quote:

What causes the issue is not the secondary or the screws that adjust the secondary. The problem is with the primary moving around.




In a few cases, especially with larger scopes, that might be the case. Usually, no. My C8s, all three of 'em easily hold collimation sufficiently for high power planetary observing and imaging. And, actually, so does my NexStar 11.

--------------------
Uncle Rod

Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using a New CAT
Available now!


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Lane
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: rmollise]
      #3423950 - 11/01/09 03:15 PM

As I said before the C8 really does not have the problem, my C8 gets off because I bang it around traveling sometimes. The C11 on an ALT-AZ mount also does not have the issue. It is the C11 on a GEM mount that has a real problem with the mirror moving around while viewing. This is because it gets put into some pretty stange positions when moving from one part of the sky to another. It can actually flip completely upside down. If I do all my viewing in the backyard and only look to the east where the sky is less light polluted then I don't have to collimate at all, I could use the C11 for months without collimating if that were there case.

--------------------
Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80


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skybsd
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 603
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Lane]
      #3423969 - 11/01/09 03:29 PM

Hi,
Of course there IS the possibility that there is something actually wrong somewhere in your situation.

Just saying.,

Regards,

skybsd


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Lane
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: skybsd]
      #3424029 - 11/01/09 04:06 PM

I said that also, I said some of the grease liquified in my C11 recently and got on the corretor plate. That means less grease in between the mirror cell and the central tube and a thick layer of grease is the only thing keeping that mirror from shifting around. Without the grease the mirror would flop all over the place.

--------------------
Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80


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skybsd
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 603
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Lane]
      #3424066 - 11/01/09 04:33 PM

Hi Lane,

Quote:

I said that also, I said some of the grease liquified in my C11 recently and got on the corretor plate. That means less grease in between the mirror cell and the central tube and a thick layer of grease is the only thing keeping that mirror from shifting around. Without the grease the mirror would flop all over the place.




Indeed.,

As I'm always being reminded by the local distributor here - its difficult at times to keep in mind that for each of us, in addition to the fact that this is, after all a mass produced, inconsistently assembled product, there are lots of factors that can affect the performance of these scopes.

Is it possible that you can pop your C-11 into a shop where they may be able to take a look? I'm thinking that it can't hurt to have it checked out.

Sorry to hear about the oil leak there..,

Regards,

skybsd


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Lane
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: skybsd]
      #3424103 - 11/01/09 04:51 PM

It isn't bad enough for that yet and I would not send it in anyway, I would pull it apart are grease it myself. I suspect most people with my scope would probably never collimate it. It just doesn't get off that much. But I and some the others out here are just real picky about perfect collimation. I think for as long as I have been looking into other peoples SCT's at our dark site I have never seen one that was perfectly collimated so I know that I am in the minority on this.

--------------------
Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80


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davidpitre
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*****

Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 1826
Loc: Central Texas
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Lane]
      #3424249 - 11/01/09 06:23 PM

Quote:

I think for as long as I have been looking into other peoples SCT's at our dark site I have never seen one that was perfectly collimated so I know that I am in the minority on this.




There is no such thing as perfect collimation. It will always be limited by the mechanics of the telescope, seeing conditions when star collimating, and the ability of the eye to judge.
When I hear people insisting that collimation be done at extremely high powers, I shake my head. What difference can collimating at powers considerably higher than those ever used for viewing make?
If it looks good at or a little higher than the highest power one will use for observing, further adjustments are not going to amount to much.

--------------------
David


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Lane
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: davidpitre]
      #3424313 - 11/01/09 07:08 PM

Don't take things so literally.

--------------------
Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80


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pogobbler
member


Reged: 09/30/08
Posts: 31
Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Lane]
      #3424967 - 11/02/09 04:13 AM

For me, my scopes are stored unmounted in an unheated, attached garage and aren't in any sort of case-- though when I can afford a good case, I plan on getting one. I usually either setup in the driveway or backyard, depending on what I want to look at, which involved a trip of either 10 feet or maybe 100-200 feet, taking out the mount and scope separately, with tear down being the reverse. Occasionally I do head out for darker skies, usually within 20 miles or so, with the scope riding in the car, seat-belted in.

As for collimation, I do have Bob's Knobs installed and collimate by tightening as much as possible before I go loosening any of the screws. There are occasions where I use 470x, so I really don't regularly collimate at powers higher than I view with. So there! :-p I barlow that on occasion because it can in some circumstances make it a touch easier.

I wouldn't be surprised if it had to do with random differences in mechanical quality and the reason I can put up with that is that I don't have the money to pay for an similarly sized, alternative, comparable scope that would feature the level of mechanical accuracy and robustness that would make a significant difference. I realize these scopes are made to a price point where some compromises are inevitable.

Understand, it's not that the collimation honestly bothers me that much, it's more the recognition of how different others' experiences can be. I've heard stories, too, of people with scopes grossly out of collimation who never quite seem to realize just how far off they are, though it's something easily recognized by others. The question was more of just a matter of curiosity than a veiled complaint about my own scope.


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davidpitre
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Re: Who are these people... new [Re: pogobbler]
      #3427191 - 11/03/09 11:00 AM

Quote:

There are occasions where I use 470x, so I really don't regularly collimate at powers higher than I view with. So there!




I did not mean to intimate that you were too concerned with collimation. My experience is similar to yours. I generally check collimation most nights. Some of my past SCTs needed regular touch-ups especially after transportation to a dark sight. I've always been amazed at those who say they haven't collimated in years and it's still perfect. Not that I don't believe them, it is just a different experience than mine.
My earlier post was in response the sometimes heard statement that "I never see" or "almost no" SCTs they come across are adequately collimated. At star parties, I'd say a good portion of the SCTs I look through are adequately collimated for the conditions and use they will receive so that collimation will not be the limiting factor. I guess that is my threshold for adequate: Will collimation be the limiting factor?

--------------------
David


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Eddgie
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Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Lane]
      #3427246 - 11/03/09 11:36 AM

I am inclined to agree with you. Much of the tweaking I have done in the past I felt was related to the fact that the mirror can move a tiny amount. Remember, we are talking about a few arc-minutes of movement for collimation and this can easily be attributed to the mirror being in an inconsistent spot.

In my C14, I find that if I move to a point in the sky that is much below about 45 degrees from the horizion, my scope's collimatin shifts.

If I am going to be observing a planet low in the sky (as I did with Jupiter), I do indeed collimate at a lower elevation. Then, when I go back to observing higher, I can see the collimation change.

To minimize this, I always approach focus from one direction when collimating and when viewing... Counter- Clockwise. This has the effect of "Jacking" the mirror into position. You are lifting the mirror on one side, causing it to "*BLEEP*" in the same manner. I will generally run the focuser in and out a bit to settle the mirror, then approach by the final focus by turning the focuser counter-clockwise. Running the focuser in and out a half turn before the final appoach seems to allow gravity to settle the non-focuser side so that when you approach final focus, you are alwasy "Lifting" the focuser side of the mirror into position. You can get it into VERY consistent final observing position. To be fair, I only do this when observing at high powers too, because at lower powers, well, it dosen't matter THAT much.

Using this method, I find my focused position is consistently more in collimation. Not alwasy PERFECT, but usually quite good.

I have not had to collimate my C14 but a couple of times in the last year, and most of that was due to the fact that for Jupiter, I was forced to recollimate when the mirror movement was simply too much because of the lower elevations that Jupiter was being viewed at. Now that it is pretty high, I have re-collimated at a higher lattitude and can now use the focus approach method.

Again, using this method means that my scope is often not in "Perfect" collimation, but for most viewing, it is more than good enough (Less than 3 arc minutes error).

So, I agree with you. Mirror movement and inconsistent settling is more than enough to cause an SCT to loose ultra-fine collimation.

Where we differer perhaps is in the amount of miss-collimation that we think is acceptable. Amounts less than 3 arc minutes have little real effect for most viewing, Only for the most demanding viewing will I bother to re-collimate. Otherwise, my SCT holds its collimation for a year or more at a time (using the focus method mentioned above to compenaste for slight mirror settling differences) and I simply don't fret over it.

I have also considered a "Reverse" solution to the problem. I have considered using spring tension on the mirror assembly to ensure that, along with the counter-clockwise approach, the other two points would always be pulled into postiion. I was thinking of using a threaded rod to go into the lock down holes, with a spring on the shaft on the outside of the tube working against a nut. This would allow the mirror to move, but always have some pre-load.

Of course this would only work on a scope with lock down screw holes, but I have seen where someone did something similar and I consider it a very promising idea.

Anyway, my advice is to simply not stress over collimation unless you are going to do planetary observing.

And try my method of working the focuser back and forth a turn to settle the mirror, then pushing the mirror into final position both for collimation and for day to day observing.. Do this and you may find that you don't feel as compelled to collimate every time you use your scope. I can SEE that if I approach from different directions when collimating vs normal focusing, or just in normal focusing, that with ever time I focus, critical collimation varies a bit. Using my method, it varies less. Again, I usually get fine focus that is within my own 3 arc minute range of acceptability and for the vast majority of observing, I think this is more than good enough.

Good luck.

--------------------
Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)

The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.


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Eddgie
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Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Eddgie]
      #3427255 - 11/03/09 11:40 AM

The "Bleep" was due to the fact that I used at term that is also a synomym for a male sex organ. I think the work has multiple meenings, but the term was very exact and that was why I used it. It would take several word to say it othewise, just like it has taken this post several more words than necessary to explain why automated censorship is silly.

Regards.

--------------------
Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)

The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.


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JerryWise
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Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Eddgie]
      #3428114 - 11/03/09 07:45 PM

I'm looking for a set of "Bob's Knobs" for my 10" RCX.

--------------------
Jerry

Celestron C-11 Hyperstar
(and some other nick-knacks)





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Rusty
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Re: Who are these people... new [Re: JerryWise]
      #3428421 - 11/03/09 11:14 PM

Like rboe, my N11 has only needed collimation once after the initial - and it has about 45,000 miles riding in the basement of a motorhome.

--------------------
N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey


Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke


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Jeff Young
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Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Rusty]
      #3429566 - 11/04/09 04:40 PM

I think a lot depends on the size of the mirror. Mirror-flop-induced collimation changes were easy to see in my 16" SCT, less so in my 8".

-- Jeff.

--------------------
Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium                                       Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD                       Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO                        Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO


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charles genovese
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Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Jeff Young]
      #3430173 - 11/04/09 11:26 PM

I currently have a C5, C8, and a C14, and have had another C8 and C14 before that. I regularly check collimation at 400X and rarely ever have to make any adjustments, even after transport to an observing site. I think your secondary adjustment screws are too loose.

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deSitter
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Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Eddgie]
      #3431292 - 11/05/09 02:53 PM

Quote:

The "Bleep" was due to the fact that I used at term that is also a synomym for a male sex organ. I think the work has multiple meenings, but the term was very exact and that was why I used it. It would take several word to say it othewise, just like it has taken this post several more words than necessary to explain why automated censorship is silly.

Regards.




Wow, I didn't know "Cheshire" was a term for that..

-drl


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deSitter
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Re: Who are these people... new [Re: Luigi]
      #3431300 - 11/05/09 02:56 PM

Quote:

>>>only about 3 times per year when the skies are good enough<<<

With a star centered, I dither the focuser very slightly through focus and watch the dancing blob expand and contract, independent of seeing. If it expands symmetrically, it's good. If it expands toward ones side, I adjust the secondary to shift the image in that direction and try again.

Using this method you can tell if the scope is collimated every time you focus when viewing at higher magnification. This generally leads to more frequent touching up of the collimation.

Works on Newts too.




Whoa there Luigi - not on fast Newts, with the secondary being offset and all that - if you want to tweak visibly in a fast Newtonian you must use the comatic stars at the edge as a guide. This is one reason I like centered spider vanes, because you can use those to judge the symmetry of the out-of-focus pattern.

-drl


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