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Equipment Discussions >> Cats & Casses

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Footbag
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CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR?
      #5612286 - 01/08/13 04:42 PM

CES began today. The rumor was that the FR for the Edge HD 800 would be introduced at CES. Anyone hear anything?

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AstroGabe
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5612399 - 01/08/13 05:53 PM

Check out the vendor forum.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5612204/Main...

Looks like $300, which is a welcome sight considering the more expensive 11" and 14" models. I'm still waiting for the 9.25HD reducer. Maybe next year?

Gabe


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Footbag
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: AstroGabe]
      #5612424 - 01/08/13 06:09 PM

Awesome! Thanks.

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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5613679 - 01/09/13 12:50 PM Attachment (47 downloads)

here's their booth...

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Footbag
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Pinbout]
      #5613786 - 01/09/13 02:06 PM

Thanks again!

Edited by Footbag (01/09/13 06:43 PM)


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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5615193 - 01/10/13 10:27 AM

This FR is now at Celestron web site but no photos yet.

http://www.celestron.com/astronomy/edgehd-7x-reducer-lens-8-inch.html

It says 105mm back focus. I am not happy about this much shorter back focus than 133mm for F/10.

Peter


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Patrick
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5615732 - 01/10/13 03:27 PM

Peter,

Yes, but it's a "generous" 105mm back focus!

How much back focus are you currently running on your imaging train?

Patrick


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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Patrick]
      #5615751 - 01/10/13 03:42 PM

Celestron C-8 EdgeHD at F/10 requires 133mm back focus due to built-in flattener inside the baffle tube. That's what I am using.

Celestron should know better that 105mm is too short for many imaging equipment. What about Adaptive Optics, rotator, etc? 105mm will not work with these equipment.

FR for C-11 and C-14 EdgeHD maintains the same back focus distance (146mm) as for F/10 and I thought that was a great idea. I assumed they would do the same thing for C-8 but they didn't.

I had to cancel the order for On-Axis Guider (ONAG) because ONAG will never meet the 105mm back focus. The absolute minimum with my equipment to work with ONAG is 115mm, but in reality, it would be more like 120mm. ONAG back focus is 66mm.

I am not a happy camper!

Peter


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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5615772 - 01/10/13 03:52 PM

Also, it's very convenient to have same back focus distance with or without focal reducer so I don't have to keep on changing my imaging equipment when changing focal ratios.

Peter


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Footbag
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5615776 - 01/10/13 03:55 PM

Are you thinking the reducer is 61mm long? In other words it replaces the T-adapter?

In that case, nothing but a T-ring would fit in there. Not even the new OAG. We'll see. You'd think they would want some extra space in there.


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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5615787 - 01/10/13 03:58 PM

The back focus is 105mm from the back side (not front side where it meets the scope) of focal reducer. It does not include the length of the focal reducer itself.

You can fit the T-adapter in between FR and OAG/camera but you will most likely have to unscrew the second half of T-adapter to meet your BF requirement.

Peter


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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5615791 - 01/10/13 04:02 PM

From Celestron's web site description of their new focal reducer, it still looks better than Optec focal reducer. The imaging circle appears to be bigger than Optec. Celestron FR supports APS-C sensors which is a pretty good size CCD sensor. Plus Optec uses dovetail connection instead of SCT threaded connection. I prefer SCT threaded connection.

Peter


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Footbag
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5615797 - 01/10/13 04:05 PM

That would still give 61mm to play with, you need more then that?

And where does the line start forming?


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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5615817 - 01/10/13 04:15 PM

As I said earlier, ONAG back focus is 66mm which is quite long. My camera BF is 14mm, filter wheel is 29mm, ONAG SCT adapter is 6mm, that gives an absolute minimum total back focus of 115mm. I think it will be closer to 120mm.

105mm back focus will work with my existing Hutech OAG. But the biggest inconvenience is taking apart the imaging equipment every time I change focal ratio. Celestron C-11/C-14 EdgeHD FR does not require changing back focus with or without FR. It seems to be implied by Celestron that they will maintain the same BF for C-8 EdgeHD but they didn't.

I am not using T-adapter. My understanding is you are planinng to use T-adapter.

Peter

Edited by Peter in Reno (01/10/13 04:16 PM)


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Footbag
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5615833 - 01/10/13 04:24 PM

Quote:

As I said earlier, ONAG back focus is 66mm which is quite long. My camera BF is 14mm, filter wheel is 29mm, ONAG SCT adapter is 6mm, that gives an absolute minimum total back focus of 115mm. I think it will be closer to 120mm.

105mm back focus will work with my existing Hutech OAG. But the biggest inconvenience is taking apart the imaging equipment every time I change focal ratio. Celestron C-11/C-14 EdgeHD FR does not require changing back focus with or without FR. It seems to be implied by Celestron that they will maintain the same BF for C-8 EdgeHD but they didn't.

I am not using T-adapter. My understanding is you are planinng to use T-adapter.

Peter




Yup. And I know what you are saying about changing out equipment when changing FR. The reason I went with the TSOAG9 is that it should allow me to switch it out easily without changing any distances.

I forgot about your ONAG. 66mm is a lot on top of your image train.


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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5615839 - 01/10/13 04:29 PM

I do not have the ONAG. I order it last night but canceled the order this morning after reading about the shorty 105mm BF of new FR.

Peter


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Patrick
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5615849 - 01/10/13 04:37 PM

Quote:

From Celestron's web site description of their new focal reducer, it still looks better than Optec focal reducer. The imaging circle appears to be bigger than Optec. Celestron FR supports APS-C sensors which is a pretty good size CCD sensor. Plus Optec uses dovetail connection instead of SCT threaded connection. I prefer SCT threaded connection.





Peter,

Optec makes a f/r for the EdgeHD with 2" x 24 tpi threads, but I don't believe OPT carries it. All they carry is the one you're describing which must be a more 'universal' mounting. You can get one from APM in Germany for only 349,00 Eur. Optec 19409 for EdgeHD 8" ...22mm illuminated circle. Still not big enough for an APS-C, but big enough for the Atik 460EX sensor.

So, yes, the Celestron F/R still looks better.

Patrick

Edited by Patrick (01/10/13 04:41 PM)


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wolfman_4_ever
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Patrick]
      #5615860 - 01/10/13 04:44 PM

That version is the 2" drawtube version. It works in any 2" focuser..

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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Patrick]
      #5615866 - 01/10/13 04:46 PM

Optec FR has one side SCT thread, but not the other side. The other side is still a dovetail connection which requires Optec custom adapter which I hate. Optec FR BF distance is even shorter at 100mm. When will these companies figure out that it's tooooooooo short for most imagers?

Peter


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Patrick
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5616031 - 01/10/13 06:35 PM

Quote:

Optec FR has one side SCT thread, but not the other side. The other side is still a dovetail connection which requires Optec custom adapter




Ahh...


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wolfman_4_ever
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Patrick]
      #5616060 - 01/10/13 06:55 PM

They also sell one that DOES NOT attach to the SCT rear flange. They sell an HD reducer that drops into a 2" focuser.. But it still uses the dovetail connection on the other side..

Gurd sells a short dovetail. You then extend it to your desired distance by using t=thread spacers.


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wolfman_4_ever
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5616065 - 01/10/13 06:57 PM

Quote:

The back focus is 105mm from the back side (not front side where it meets the scope) of focal reducer. It does not include the length of the focal reducer itself.

You can fit the T-adapter in between FR and OAG/camera but you will most likely have to unscrew the second half of T-adapter to meet your BF requirement.

Peter




28mm difference between the 133 and 105mm backfocus.. Guess the distance of the part you unscrew for the HD 8" t-adapter... YOU GUESSED IT! 28.8mmm They probably had that distance in mind since the beginning.


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Rick Woods
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: wolfman_4_ever]
      #5616086 - 01/10/13 07:16 PM

Uhhh... what's CES?

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Footbag
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5616087 - 01/10/13 07:17 PM

Quote:

Uhhh... what's CES?




Consumer Electronics Show.


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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5616141 - 01/10/13 07:42 PM

I've always wondered why C-8 EdgeHD T-adapter breaks into two parts.

The way Celestron has been advertising is somewhat misleading. First they started selling FR for C-11/C-14 EdgeHD gloating about maintaining same long back focus distance with or without FR. Fantastic idea. To me, it was implied that they would do the same thing to C-8 EdgeHD focal reducer but they did not.

I have no issues of getting 105mm back focus with my current imaging equipment but it's going to be less convenient and tighter than I had planned. If the C-8 EdgeHD forces people to set to the recommended back focus of 133mm at F/10, don't you think it's backwards to force us to reduce BF with FR. What if people spent big bucks on buying equipment to tightly fit in 133mm BF and now they can't do that anymore? It forced me to cancel the order for ONAG due to lack of back focus distance with FR. ONAG would have worked for 133mm BF but not with FR. That does not sound good business to me.

Peter


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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5616203 - 01/10/13 08:17 PM

It looks like I got lucky. I checked my current imaging train and there's a 1" (25.4mm) SCT spacer between the scope and OAG. Which means, replacing the 1" SCT spacer with EdgeHD focal reducer would result only about 3mm over the 105mm required BF. It should work with my Atik 460EX camera. So switching between focal ratios will not complicate changing the imaging train. I just wish it would work with ONAG.

Peter


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John Miele
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Patrick]
      #5616242 - 01/10/13 08:45 PM

Patrick,

Is this the Optec reducer model you and Peter are talking about?

http://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=16980%09%09%09%09%09%09%09%09%09%09%0...

I was going to buy this one and I thought it did screw directly to the back of the scope or am I looking at it wrong???

Thanks

John


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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: John Miele]
      #5616285 - 01/10/13 09:17 PM

I know Optec FR is confusing. It took me a while to figure it out and I exchanged e-mails with Optec and I didn't like their answer.

You screw the FR to the telescope but to connect a camera to FR, you must buy a custom adapter/spacer from Optec to fit in between Optec FR and the camera. One end of Optec custom spacer is a special dovetail connection that connects to FR and other end is a thread to fit your camera. OptCorp web site mentioned "(order Lepus camera mount separately below)" but I don't see their list but you can see them at:

http://www.optcorp.com/productList.aspx?uid=0&pg=1&kw=Optec+Lepus+HD+...

This one shows a picture of Optec's custom adapter for DSLR. Notice the dovetail at top (set screws).

http://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=15320&kw=Optec%20Lepus%20HD%20Tel...

Optec FR costs $275 plus about $60 for custom spacer which costs more than Celestron's FR at $300. I suggest Celestron's FR over Optec's.

Peter


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Patrick
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: John Miele]
      #5616513 - 01/10/13 11:42 PM

This is a link to the Optec website showing the arrangement. Nice to see an actual drawing of the configuration. HERE

Here's The Webpage for the Camera Mounts

Patrick


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Patrick
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5616525 - 01/10/13 11:57 PM

Quote:

This one shows a picture of Optec's custom adapter for DSLR. Notice the dovetail at top (set screws).




I don't think that's a 'dovetail' on the tube side. The three set screws are tightened down into the dovetail on the focal reducer itself. This arrangement allows multiple cameras with different back focus distances to be used with the focal reducer. How is Celestron taking care of this? You will still have to buy some kind of tube to attach to the Celestron f/r. It may not be as expensive, but you'll have to have something. I agree that backing out three set screws to change/remove a camera is not the cleanest solution.

Patrick


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Patrick
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: John Miele]
      #5616531 - 01/11/13 12:05 AM

Quote:

Is this the Optec reducer model you and Peter are talking about?




That's the one for the EdgeHD 8" that I was talking about. It keeps the focal reducer closer to the back of the scope. Otherwise you'd need a 2" visual back and then put the focal reducer into the visual back.

Patrick


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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Patrick]
      #5616553 - 01/11/13 12:39 AM

Quote:

Quote:

This one shows a picture of Optec's custom adapter for DSLR. Notice the dovetail at top (set screws).




I don't think that's a 'dovetail' on the tube side. The three set screws are tightened down into the dovetail on the focal reducer itself. This arrangement allows multiple cameras with different back focus distances to be used with the focal reducer. How is Celestron taking care of this? You will still have to buy some kind of tube to attach to the Celestron f/r. It may not be as expensive, but you'll have to have something. I agree that backing out three set screws to change/remove a camera is not the cleanest solution.

Patrick




That's what I was trying to say. You said it better. I would rather buy my own spacers that use standard threads instead of proprietary dovetails.

Peter


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John Miele
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5617316 - 01/11/13 01:51 PM

Thanks guys. Ok...I now understand where the dovetail connection is located. It's between the camera adapter tube and the focal reducer bodey.

Well, I went ahead and just ordered the Lepus Edge 8 edition. My reasons were I wanted the larger focal reduction (0.62 vs 0.7), it's available now, and I am using a small chip camera so I don't need the potentially better performance the Celestron model mayhave on a large chip. My total price for the reducer and camera adapter was around $325 shipped with OPT and my rewards. I think the Celestron reducer plus spacer(s) and shipping will run at least the same amount. I'll let you guys know how I like it when it arrives. Good luck to all with the C model. I hope they get it out soon. And thanks for the extra information you provided....John


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Patrick
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: John Miele]
      #5617418 - 01/11/13 03:02 PM

I'd be more inclined to go with the Lepus myself if I wasn't using a Canon APS-C sensor. I may be buying a midsized mono camera down the road and I think that would work fine with the Lepus.

Let us know how it works for you!

Patrick


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bilgebay
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Patrick]
      #5617443 - 01/11/13 03:14 PM

Although several users reported that AP's CCDT67 didn't work well with C8 and C9 Edge, I am getting excellent frames with it on my C11 Edge. Before buying any FR for my hypothetical C8 Edge, I want to give a chance to CCDT67 on C8 before excluding it from my FR options list. I plan to buy a C8 + Celestron VX mount this summer or fall.

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Peter in Reno
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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: bilgebay]
      #5617533 - 01/11/13 04:15 PM

It's very strange how Optec assumes people won't put anything in between FR and camera like OAG and filter wheel. Their adapters connects from FR directly to camera. What if you get a mono camera, filter wheel and OAG, then how are you going to use it with Optec FR?

Why can't Optec make a skinny adapter with one end for dovetail and other end with M42 (T-Thread) or M48 so that we can add more stuff in between adapter and camera using STANDARD threads?

Also, why don't Optec have pictures of their adapters as well as some of their other products? I see "Meade/Celestron 2" SCT-Thread to Optec-3600 Dovetail Adapter" at Opt Corp but I don't understand their explanation and they don't show pictures. Optec has terrible way to show their products by using words instead of pictures. Even at Optec web site says "Photo coming soon" but they usually don't update. What are they hiding?

I am not bashing at Optec. I am sure their optics in FR are excellent, it's the way their FRs are used or connected to other devices that are inconvenient.

Peter


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Re: CES is today... Celestron Edge HD FR? new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #5618363 - 01/12/13 01:18 AM

Quote:

t's very strange how Optec assumes people won't put anything in between FR and camera like OAG and filter wheel.




Peter,

I had some communication with Optec today as follows:

"Thank you for your note. We do offer direct sales - I would be happy to
help.

The Lepus telecompressor has a back-focal distance of 100mm which we
maintain with a camera-specific mount. If you can tell me which camera
package (including filter wheel, off-axis guider, etc.) you plan to use
I can make a recommendation."


So, they do take those pieces of gear into consideration. The bottom line for me is that they do not have a large enough full illumination circle for an APS-C sensor. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure they will work fine. I don't think they're hiding anything. They are a big company though and I'd guess these focal reducers are not a high volume product for them.

It could be that the communication problem is less about Optec and more about OPT. I've found out everything I need from Optec. It's been OPT that has not had enough information. Quite frankly, I don't have a dog in this fight, so I could care less one way or the other. I just think it's important to get all the facts out there.

Patrick


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