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Equipment Discussions >> Cats & Casses

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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!?
      #6172692 - 11/02/13 10:06 PM

 

Edited by WaterMaster (11/03/13 04:19 PM)


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Jon_Doh
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/16/11

Loc: On a receiver's back
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: Skunky]
      #6173273 - 11/03/13 08:32 AM

So they're made at the Tasco factory in Torrance?

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Eddgie
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/01/06

Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: Skunky]
      #6173315 - 11/03/13 09:05 AM

If this is true, it is more liklely one or a combination of the following.

Lower volume. The big assembly line factory utilization is best leveraged when you make a lot of something and the model does not work as well for things you make fewer of.

If I can use my grinders and polishers to crank out 20 EdgeHD 8" in one day, but only two 14" EdgeHDs in the same time, I have people sitting around while both of my grinding machines are toiling over the big f/2 sperical mirrors.

The other factor is shipping.

International freight is based on the "Shipping Ton".

But the funny thing is that a shipping ton is not really a weeight, but rather a volume.

A "Freight Ton" (land shipping) is done by weigth, but a shipping ton is done by volume, and the volume of a shipping ton is 40 cubic feet.

Now as it turns out, this is roughly the size of a box that is one meter on all sides.

And the problem is that the cost per shipping ton had greatly increased in recend decades.

This is one of the reasons that many car manufactures started to build cars in the US. The cost of shipping them (a car is a lot of volume, hence many shippig tons) was getting to be a major offset for the higher assebly costs of the US.

Bottom line, you can squeeze a lot more EdgeHD 8" scopes into a container than you can 14" EdgeHD scopes.

And my guess is that someone did the math and decided that for the low volumes and the difference in shipping cost by volume, it just made more sense to build them in the US.

I seriously doubt that quality was an issue becuase Synta is proving that it can build really excellent SCTs.

They are where Japan was in the 70s. They are showing the world that they can go toe to toe with any manufacturing country on earth.

To think that they somehow can't build the Edge 14 as well as the Edge 8 is to not give them the credit they deserve.

Economics.. These kinds of things are almost always just plain, simple economics.

Edited by Eddgie (11/03/13 09:06 AM)


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Bill Barlow
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/03/07

Loc: Overland Park KS
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: Skunky]
      #6173446 - 11/03/13 10:29 AM

I thought all Celestron telescopes are now made/built in China. This is news to me.

Bill


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Calypte
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/20/07

Loc: Anza, California
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: Bill Barlow]
      #6174390 - 11/03/13 08:07 PM

Back in '09 or '10, a former Celestron employee (he's with a hi-end scope manufacturer now) told me the EdgeHD scopes were made in Torrance. I expressed surprise, since I thought they were all made in China, but he insisted that he had seen them being assembled in Torrance. I've always been puzzled by this gentleman's comment. The preceding posts suggest that it depends upon which scopes you're talking about.

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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: Calypte]
      #6174551 - 11/03/13 09:47 PM

So I guess it's just the cardboard boxes for the Edge HD scopes that are "Made in China". (The boxes in which the Edge HD OTAs ship are printed "Made in China".)

Regards,

Jim


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ourobouros2k2
sage


Reged: 11/10/11

Loc: okc area, oklahoma
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6174602 - 11/03/13 10:23 PM

awhile back, if you follow celestron on FB, they released a video of final assembly of the edge HD tubes. I am not saying it was in china, but all the chinese ladies building the scopes my disagree.

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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: ourobouros2k2]
      #6174610 - 11/03/13 10:27 PM

I dunno. Ever been to Torrance?

Or maybe it was cheaper to use precious cargo space shipping the workers here than the finished OTAs.

Kidding aside, they're made in China folks.

Though as Chinese labor rates and standard of living rise, and ours falls, that may change at some point. Apple is manufacturing the new Mac Pro here in the US of A, and considering bringing manufacturing of other products "home" too.

- Jim


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ourobouros2k2
sage


Reged: 11/10/11

Loc: okc area, oklahoma
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6174685 - 11/03/13 11:30 PM

heheh. I have been trying since my post to find that video, my only explanation is that it is no longer on the site, the facebook page, or youtube.

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my_universe
member


Reged: 01/07/10

Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6176131 - 11/04/13 07:35 PM

Quote:

Kidding aside, they're made in China folks.

- Jim




Sez you.

Sez Astronomy, Dec. 2013, p. 52, in an article by senior editor Michael Bakich entitled "Behind the Scenes at Celestron":

"Many of Celestron's products come fully assembled from the company's plant in China. Workers at the Torrance, California, plant, however, still create one optical tube assembly -- that of the 14-inch EdgeHD. Here's how they do it..."


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: my_universe]
      #6176336 - 11/04/13 09:32 PM

I believe MyUniverse has the match on that one.

-Rich


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Stewww
super member
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Reged: 06/29/10

Loc: Memphis, IN
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: Starhawk]
      #6177738 - 11/05/13 04:20 PM

Mine said "Made in China" on the box the tube was in...

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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: Stewww]
      #6178339 - 11/05/13 10:32 PM

If you still have the OTA shipping box, it'd be great to take a picture of the narrow end of the box with the "Made in China" stamp.

It would certainly give the author of the 2013 article some serious 'splaining to do.

Regards,

Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (11/05/13 10:33 PM)


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Skunky
sage


Reged: 09/16/13

Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: my_universe]
      #6178463 - 11/06/13 12:20 AM

 

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T1R2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/11/13

Loc: NeverWhere, 35*N
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: Skunky]
      #6178570 - 11/06/13 02:23 AM

As of o8' It was on their website it think, that the 11-14" otas were made in USA, and the 8-9.25" in Mex.(don't know about other otas like the 5,6 or the refractors) I know that's changed now, but I still think the 11-14 are USA, my 11 is USA and its a 08'

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WesC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/06/13

Loc: La Crescenta, CA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: T1R2]
      #6178574 - 11/06/13 02:29 AM

My C11 edge says made in China.

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Wmacky
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/24/07

Loc: Florida
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: T1R2]
      #6178805 - 11/06/13 08:59 AM

Quote:

As of o8' It was on their website it think, that the 11-14" otas were made in USA, and the 8-9.25" in Mex.(don't know about other otas like the 5,6 or the refractors) I know that's changed now, but I still think the 11-14 are USA, my 11 is USA and its a 08'




Mexico? Next to the Meade plant?


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Bill Barlow
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/03/07

Loc: Overland Park KS
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: T1R2]
      #6178956 - 11/06/13 10:37 AM

Didn't all of Celestron's manufacturing go over to China in/around 2010? I don' t think that Celestron ever manufactured anything in Mexico like Meade is now doing.

Bill


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rlandsboro
super member


Reged: 02/23/12

Loc: Scottsdale, AZ. USA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6179051 - 11/06/13 11:34 AM Attachment (39 downloads)

Quote:

If you still have the OTA shipping box, it'd be great to take a picture of the narrow end of the box with the "Made in China" stamp.




Here is the end of my C14EdgeHD box received last week.


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rlandsboro
super member


Reged: 02/23/12

Loc: Scottsdale, AZ. USA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: rlandsboro]
      #6179054 - 11/06/13 11:36 AM Attachment (34 downloads)

And for added info, here is the label from the side of the box identifying the C14 EdgeHD OTA.

Edited by rlandsboro (11/06/13 11:37 AM)


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rlandsboro
super member


Reged: 02/23/12

Loc: Scottsdale, AZ. USA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: rlandsboro]
      #6179058 - 11/06/13 11:40 AM

Perhaps the box labeler made a mistake and really meant "Chino" (California) and not "China" (the country)?

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dpippel
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/05/13

Loc: Desierto de Sonora
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: rlandsboro]
      #6179093 - 11/06/13 11:57 AM

Or maybe it means that only the *box* was made in China...

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faltered
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/01/05

Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: dpippel]
      #6179133 - 11/06/13 12:24 PM

This question could easily be answered by asking Celestron right?

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Ed Holland
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/16/10

Loc: San Jose, CA and Oxford, UK
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: faltered]
      #6179192 - 11/06/13 12:47 PM

There is an article in the December issue of Astronomy magazine that details the building of 14" Edge OTA's at the Torrence factory.

This seems to include grind, polish, coring and coating of correctors. Also mirror coatings. Optics are matched and corrected prior to precise assembly and testing/ qualification.

Reading between the lines, it would seem that some of the more exacting production tasks take place at Torrence, whilst other parts of the telescope are produced at the Synta plant. Curiously, no mention is made of the Edge optics in the baffle tube.

Ed


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T1R2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/11/13

Loc: NeverWhere, 35*N
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: Bill Barlow]
      #6179558 - 11/06/13 04:09 PM

I could be mistaken, it was around the time I was looking at both Meade and Celestron for scopes, but I'm certain it stated the 11-14 were in USA, which is why I got the 11" instead of the 8"

Mine is a XLT non-edge scope

Its taken awhile to sink in my head that yall are taking about HD scopes so I wrote all this for nothing...lol,,, but that's ok....carry on

Edited by T1R2 (11/06/13 04:30 PM)


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TG
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/02/06

Loc: Latitude 47
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: T1R2]
      #6179635 - 11/06/13 05:02 PM

Chris Go, of planetary imaging fame (he uses a C14), some time back posted pics on Facebook of large HD SCTs being assembled in Torrance CA. I asked him to make sure and he confirmed that they were indeed assembling SCTs in CA from Chinese made parts. In fact, from his comments on his FB pics, I inferred that they were also assembling C11HDs there (could be a mistake on his part, I didn't ask).

If you are on FB, search for him and "follow" him to see the pictures.

Tanveer.


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TG
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/02/06

Loc: Latitude 47
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: TG]
      #6179678 - 11/06/13 05:23 PM

Actually, I went back and took a second look. In one of the pictures, it's clearly a C11HD (I have a sharpened crop but CN TOS will probably not allow me to post it here). In another picture, you can tell it's C14s and C11s in fork mounts (or perhaps even C9.25s) by the difference in sizes.

Goes completely against what has been assumed in recent years.

Tanveer.


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jrcrillyAdministrator
Refractor wienie no more
*****

Reged: 04/30/03

Loc: NE Ohio
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: TG]
      #6179858 - 11/06/13 07:15 PM

Quote:

...he confirmed that they were indeed assembling SCTs in CA from Chinese made parts.




That would settle it. They would NOT qualify for a "Made in USA" label then (check the FTC website).


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: rlandsboro]
      #6180181 - 11/06/13 11:22 PM

Thanks for that.

I'm grilling some crow. Who deserves some?

- Jim


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rmollise
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/06/07

Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6180477 - 11/07/13 08:07 AM

And so it goes on Cloudy Nights...I'm just surprised there's only two measly pages of posts on this...vital issue.



Edited by rmollise (11/07/13 08:10 AM)


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dpippel
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 04/05/13

Loc: Desierto de Sonora
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: rmollise]
      #6180553 - 11/07/13 09:04 AM



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Footbag
Postmaster
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Reged: 04/13/09

Loc: Scranton, PA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: dpippel]
      #6180588 - 11/07/13 09:25 AM

If they are assembling them in Torrence, don't you think they would advertise it?

Finding out something is USA made or assembled always makes me feel better about my purchase. But people only care if they know.


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crow
sage
*****

Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: Footbag]
      #6180711 - 11/07/13 10:25 AM

Its interesting for a few reasons given that virtually everything that is mass produced is made in China. I'd say to Celestron, if you can do it, manufacture something more or less entirely in North America, you're welcome in Canada. Wage rates are pretty low here in the mountains, people are generally happy to ski and enjoy the basics. Celestron, I'd be happy to help.

I wonder if they get amused by all the speculation?

I imagine they rely on posts like this to get the word out, I mean what do they advertise, 'made in the USA from chinese parts'? Often word of mouth, speculation is a very good marketing tool.

Frankly any industry that comes back to the US even in a small way, you guys should be applauding.


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: rmollise]
      #6180863 - 11/07/13 11:51 AM

Vital? Maybe that depends on who you are. Clearly there are prospective buyers who care about such things. "Made in USA" is a positive rather than a negative for manufacturers from a marketing perspective as a result. That's why there is actually a regulatory framework to vetting whether a manufacturer can really claim that it's goods are made in America. If so, that manufacturer has competitive advantage over other manufacturers offering similar goods that are not US made.

The fact that Celestron's C14 EdgeHD shipping box says "Made in China" means just that. "Word of mouth" marketing to the contrary is not fair to the competition or to consumers. So maybe it's not "vital" but it is important since it affects buying behavior and the competitive landscape in a very competitive low margin industry.

Regards,

Jim


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crow
sage
*****

Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6180909 - 11/07/13 12:13 PM

I'm not sure how unfairness comes in it? As another poster has mentioned Celestron themselves don't make a big deal of the fact they assemble the larger ota's in the USA.

As you say, Made in China is pretty broadly printed on the side of the box.

A few years into the production of the Edge scopes an article comes out mentioning assembly in the USA. Of course we could live in an Orwellian state where every article is censured, I'm not sure that would help the general prosperity much though.


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: crow]
      #6180972 - 11/07/13 12:41 PM

Unfairness in the sense that folks reading this forum might rely on the "made in USA" statement quoted and order one, only to be disappointed when it shows up and plainly says "Made in China" on the box. Likewise, the other guy making 14" SCTs (in Mexico) might have had a better chance to win that buyer's business had the buyer known that he was mistaken in believing that the 14" Celestron was NOT made in China.

That's how misleading statements such as the one quoted in the article are unfair to consumers and to competitors.

- Jim


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George N
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6181364 - 11/07/13 04:04 PM

I don't know the legal requirements for labeling something "made in the USA", but I'd suspect that items assembled in the USA from parts made in China has to be labeled "made in China".

Personally, I don't care where stuff I buy is made, but I would be happier purchasing a HD14 assembled in the USA simply because it would be more likely to survive without damage along the shorter shipping trip to my USA address. Also, it would be nice if repairs were needed if there was no need to ship something as big and delicate as a C-14 all the way to China.


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my_universe
member


Reged: 01/07/10

Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: George N]
      #6182869 - 11/08/13 12:28 PM

Turns out the article in Astronomy describes that the corrector plates for the HD 14 are made from scratch in Torrance. Grinding, polishing, figuring, testing, and coating, then the secondary mirror is hand-figured as needed. The optics are then installed and collimated. So, not enough to claim "made in USA" for the scope, apparently, but a bit more than merely assembled there.

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rmollise
Postmaster
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Reged: 07/06/07

Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: my_universe]
      #6182896 - 11/08/13 12:43 PM

The corrector plates are not "figured" in any conventional sense of the word. They are still produced using Tom Johnson's original Master Block process, and any additional touchups required for an inspec optical set are applied to the secondary.

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Ed Holland
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/16/10

Loc: San Jose, CA and Oxford, UK
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: my_universe]
      #6183015 - 11/08/13 01:59 PM

Quote:

Turns out the article in Astronomy describes that the corrector plates for the HD 14 are made from scratch in Torrance. Grinding, polishing, figuring, testing, and coating, then the secondary mirror is hand-figured as needed. The optics are then installed and collimated. So, not enough to claim "made in USA" for the scope, apparently, but a bit more than merely assembled there.




Thanks for restating this - I think it got overlooked in the midst of the discussion when I mentioned it earlier.

Ed


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: my_universe]
      #6183154 - 11/08/13 03:14 PM

Aren't the Celestron correctors molded or pressed rather than ground and figured? I though that was the innovation that allowed mass-production. Otherwise, SCTs would cost much more if correctors were made by figuring, grinding and polishing.

- Jim


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RodgerHouTex
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 06/02/09

Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6183381 - 11/08/13 05:54 PM

I'm virtually certain that they are not cast or pressed. First, I've never heard of anyone doing that successfully except in the case of plastic lenses. It only works with plastic because of the lower melting point of the plastic compared to the master which is metal or glass. Plus you can't really create precise optical surfaces due to uneven shrinkage during cooling.

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jrcrillyAdministrator
Refractor wienie no more
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Reged: 04/30/03

Loc: NE Ohio
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6183507 - 11/08/13 07:08 PM

They are pulled by a vacuum against a surface machined with the reverse of the desired shape and then the other surface is ground flat. When they are released and the glass relaxes the desired shape results.

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herrointment
Post Laureate
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Reged: 03/12/11

Loc: North of Hwy. 64
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #6183836 - 11/08/13 11:21 PM

"Aren't the Celestron correctors molded or pressed rather than ground and figured?"

You are pulling the collective leg here, right?


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TG
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/02/06

Loc: Latitude 47
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #6183901 - 11/09/13 12:09 AM

Quote:

They are pulled by a vacuum against a surface machined with the reverse of the desired shape and then the other surface is ground flat.




These are the so-called master blocks and must be figured by hand. Reportedly, Tom Johnson was the only one who knew how but he was supposed to train some people in making the master blocks.

Tanveer


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Ennis
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/11/06

Loc: The Outer Limits
Re: Celestron Edge HD14 USA Made!? new [Re: herrointment]
      #6186276 - 11/10/13 10:36 AM

Quote:

"Aren't the Celestron correctors molded or pressed rather than ground and figured?"

You are pulling the collective leg here, right?




No, he isn't.


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