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I'll be coming in on Thursday evening.
I'm the older good looking/distinguished guy.

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You'll know it's me...I'll be the one with that looks like he's got a Halloween mask on. Actually, I have a collection of astro-related t-shirts, so that'll be a dead giveaway.

David

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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,

"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein

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I'll be coming in on Thursday evening.
I'm the older good looking/distinguished guy.

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No offense but I think that's the best way to describe about 75% of the AIC audience Ok, maybe without the "good looking" part

Like at GSSP for the group photo, the photographer at some point goes "you, the guy with the white beard, move a bit forward". Probably about 30% of the people thought he was talking to them LOL

I'm planning to go all three days. You won't recognize me because I'll be in disguise dressed as an amateur astrophotographer.

Ok, I'll print my avatar and glue it to my name tag. There ya go. I suggest you all do the same

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
New picture alert: By email, RSS

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I'll be there Friday, the 30th. Maybe sportin' a new 2009 AIC shirt. Weather's been good so maybe shorts, too.
Anybody going on Friday?
My track:
# Track 1 (8:30AM- 10:00 AM):
Improving Autoguiding with Craig Stark
# Track 2 (10:15AM- 11:45AM):
Image processing with Tony Hallas
# Track 3 (1:45PM- 3:15PM):
Photoshop shortcuts
# Track 4 (3:30PM- 5:00PM):
Narrow band processing with Ken Crawford

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Here's my schedule:

Track 1 (8:30AM- 10:00 AM):
CCDStack processing with Adam Block
Track 2 (10:15AM- 11:45AM):
Image processing with Tony Hallas
Track 3 (1:45PM- 3:15PM):
Improving Autoguiding with Craig Stark
Track 4 (3:30PM- 5:00PM):
Beginner to Intermediate Photoshop with Warren Keller

I'll see you at session II.

David

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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,

"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein

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.....Will there be any documentation or media available from this year's AIC? .....

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I'll be there. Looking forward to meeting folks -- but how to recognize one another without an avatar? Perhaps we should all make masks of our Avatars and wear them Saturday for Halloween

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My avatar is ready to be taped to my ID badge. Anyone else?

David

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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,

"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein

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I'll be there. Looking forward to meeting folks -- but how to recognize one another without an avatar? Perhaps we should all make masks of our Avatars and wear them Saturday for Halloween

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My avatar is ready to be taped to my ID badge. Anyone else?

David

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Sure, I'll play...

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JOhn A Davis

Scopes: TEC 140, FSQ 106ED, FS60C, LX200 ACF 10", Borg 50mm, CPC 800

Mounts: TAK EM-200, AstroTrac

Cameras: STL-11000M, Canon XSI (Hutech Mod), Nikon D-80, Orion SS Autoguider, ToUcam

My astrophotography Blog...
http://downthewormhole.blogspot.com/

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My avatar is ready to be taped to my ID badge. Anyone else?

David

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Like this?



I'll print it out

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Warmest regards,

bud guinn
http://www.budguinn.com

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My avatar is ready to be taped to my ID badge. Anyone else? .

David

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Like this?



I'll print it out

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Actually, I found the same one that is my avatar and just printed it out, so my "badge" is exactly the same as my avatar. I have a laminating machine at my shop so it'll look really official. But I like your idea better. Now if we can just get the whole CN gang to do it.

David

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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,

"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein

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May I please ask a favor of you folks that are attending. ASA has the event listed on their website, so they may be there. They have developed an upgrade for the EQ6 mount with high resolution encoders on both axis, claiming "no autoguiding for 5 minutes or more". Can someone check this out (details, pricing) and report back their findings?

Thanks!

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If I spend any time in the vendor's hall ( ), I'll check it for you.

David

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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,

"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein

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I will be flying in late Thursday night. Last year I recorded all the AIC main conferences and my workshops. I gave the AIC board a copy of my footage. I guess they liked it and asked me to record it again this year. I can give copies to anyone who attended. Last year we all had sushi as a group Saturday night. Perhaps any other fish lovers can join us again this year!

Should we have a specific CN handshake to properly identify ourselves? I can PM my cell # to everyone on the thread for coordination if you guys want.

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Sounds like a great plan. PM sent.

David

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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,

"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein

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May I please ask a favor of you folks that are attending. ASA has the event listed on their website, so they may be there. They have developed an upgrade for the EQ6 mount with high resolution encoders on both axis, claiming "no autoguiding for 5 minutes or more". Can someone check this out (details, pricing) and report back their findings?

Thanks!

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Hey Frank....I talked to the ASA guys. He said they had done some work on upgrading the encoders for the EQ6, but the project got shelved. They've been dedicating their research time and money to their new direct drive mount. And I must say, these new mounts are just way cool! Nearly silent, they make the Atlas sound noisey, and as smooth as can be. They have a 55lb capacity version and one rated around 145lbs. I'll post some pictures when I get home.

David

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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,

"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein

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they had done some work on upgrading the encoders for the EQ6, but the project got shelved.

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Nice meeting everyone at the AIC. What a blast. RBA, Bud, Neutron Man, David, Tom, and the rest! For those who didn't meet up with me last night at the bar to grab copies of the event, I should have this encoded in a few days. I'll send out logins to grab the movies. I was able to record the following:

TheSkyX Professional Edition with Steve Bisque
CCDStack Image Processing with Adam Block
Narrow band processing with Ken Crawford
Photoshop shortcuts with Alan Erickson & Aravind Krishnaswamy
Image processing with Tony Hallas

2009 Hubble Award Lecture with Tony Hallas
Visual Elements in art and astrophotography with Drs. Letty & Jerry Bonnel
Wide Field Imagery with Tom Davis
Pro-Am Collaboration with Dr. David Martinez-Delgado (IAC)
Making Eye Candy with R. Jay GaBany
Data Mining, part 2 with Paul Mortfield
Astrophotography on a Budget with Craig Stark
High Resolution Image Processing with Volker Wendel

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Chris was a busy guy and did some great work for the conference. It was a bunch of fun meeting up with everyone. The stuff Chris recorded is worth looking into. If there's something in particular that you have been having a problem with and it happens to be one of the recordings, grab it!! You won't be disappointed.

David

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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,

"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein

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Oh....
THAT was Chris?
He was about 10 feet from my daughter and I at the back of the room.
Darn - would've been nice to say hello but at least I have a face to the name.

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Yeah and believe it or not, I was the one standing next to Chris "Ozy" during the raffle, right in front of Jerry APOD Bonell. Since I won NOTHING, my face will remain a mistery to you for now Another CN'er won time on LightBuckets, so I suspect by next new moon we'll see his best image ever

I saw you because I noticed that little girl bored to death, of course I had no idea the dad was a CN'er. BTW I can relate to that girl, or to you actually. Saturday morning I had to baby-sit my 3 years old while at the AIC. It's doable but I don't recommend it

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
New picture alert: By email, RSS

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Oh....
THAT was Chris?
He was about 10 feet from my daughter and I at the back of the room.
Darn - would've been nice to say hello but at least I have a face to the name.

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Yeah and believe it or not, I was the one standing next to Chris "Ozy" during the raffle, right in front of Jerry APOD Bonell. Since I won NOTHING, my face will remain a mistery to you for now Another CN'er won time on LightBuckets, so I suspect by next new moon we'll see his best image ever

I saw you because I noticed that little girl bored to death, of course I had no idea the dad was a CN'er. BTW I can relate to that girl, or to you actually. Saturday morning I had to baby-sit my 3 years old while at the AIC. It's doable but I don't recommend it

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The picture I took of your daughter and you came out very nice. If you like, pass along your email and I'll send you a copy.

David

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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,

"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein

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Oh one more thing... One of the things that surprised me about the CN'ers I met at AIC was to find out that Chris "Ozy" was so... um... jolly

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I didn't become a huge computer geek by lifting weights.. lets just leave it at that.. hahaha

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Cuttin' Edge Observatory

Used Finderscope - Canon Elan - Kodachrome 200

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Not to open a can of worms here but I wouldn't put in practice half of what's on Tony's DVDs (the other half is ok). He's a legend in the AP world, but speaking my mind (which I know can get me in trouble) if we believe that one needs to be careful when "photoshopping astrophotos" (and by that I don't mean simply "using Photoshop"), IMHO Tony gets the award among the top names as far as controversial techniques go. I would favor Adam Block's or even Ken Crawford's techniques versus Tony's. OTOH I like the often candid approach Tony usually takes when you talk to him, he's a down to earth guy, but I believe he "photoshops" his images a bit too much, considering the quality of the data he often acquires. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

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I tend to agree, but I also have to say that your images are pushed near the extreme as Tony's are also, you're only 2 steps behind him.

While I was recording this, the people sitting directly in front of my mic were "expressing their opinions" about that also. I had to tap them on the shoulder and then point to my mic and then they were a bit ghost white after realizing that had been recorded.

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Cuttin' Edge Observatory

Used Finderscope - Canon Elan - Kodachrome 200

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I tend to agree, but I also have to say that your images are pushed near the extreme as Tony's are also, you're only 2 steps behind him.

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You can say that, and I won't argue that I push my images as much as I can. However, you're judging the results, not the techniques. The way I see it, I overstretch and saturate, and that sometimes gives my images a "fabricated" look, but I try to stay away from tools such as the lasso tool - not that there's anything wrong with it, and if there is, I won't get into that now - and it's been a long time since I do localized touchups, something that was constantly advocated during the AIC this year.

See my last mosaic of California and M45. I know it has a fabricated look. Signal looks forced, color looks spotty. Yet, there's not a single touchup, and the only instances I used the paintbrush were to manually model luminosity masks (artificial flats if you will) to make the different frames of the mosaic to match in luminosity, not to mask in/out a particular effect. But yes, when the SNR is poor (some of the frames in the mosaic are only 4 subs, 10 minutes each) and you push the histogram several times, your image starts to acquire that fabricated look. That's not to say the technique was questionable, but that I pushed the image more than what it probably tolerates IMHO. In fact, I could guess that by doing touch-ups I might be able to reduce that artificial look, I just don't know how to do it nor I'm particularly interested at this time in doing it.

Tony showed in his workshop he reveals detail in the core by selecting the core and adjusting the histogram on that feathered selection. To me, that's photoshopping. Can you get similar, perhaps better results with a simple HDRWT applied to a wavelet-masked image? Yes you can. Is that photoshopping? I say it isn't but others may argue it is I guess.

I'll tell you what I'm going to do. On my next target, I'm going to try to find the patience to write up a step-by-step to tutorial on how I process it. Then you'll tell me if I'm two steps behind or not and at the same time, point out what you would've done differently. That way we all learn from each other. I just hope to find the patience, when I process I just want to see the results, not to carefully take screen shots and document it, but I'll try

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
New picture alert: By email, RSS

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BTW Mike I see you're local. How come we haven't met up in a hill before? I'm "there" all the time!

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I'm up near SFO and really haven't imaged outside the backyard much, although I'm portable now. I've been itching to get to Henry Coe or other but it was the drive vs. benefit vs. imaging time ratio that stalled me. Now that I've got a camera where I can get a noise-free image in one night, you might run into me.

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~Mike

AP Mach1GTO
Orion 8", AT66ED, Tak. FS-60CSV
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, SXV-H9

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I'll tell you what I'm going to do. On my next target, I'm going to try to find the patience to write up a step-by-step to tutorial on how I process it. Then you'll tell me if I'm two steps behind or not and at the same time, point out what you would've done differently. That way we all learn from each other. I just hope to find the patience, when I process I just want to see the results, not to carefully take screen shots and document it, but I'll try

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That's a good idea and could be really helpful. While I've never thought of the lasso tool or selective enhancement as photoshopping, I can see where one could call it that.
IMHO, if the signal is there then it's about how you present it. So, if there are techniques to bring it out using different tools/methods - bring it on!

That was one of the reasons I wanted to see Tom Davis's presentation.

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~Mike

AP Mach1GTO
Orion 8", AT66ED, Tak. FS-60CSV
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, SXV-H9

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While I've never thought of the lasso tool or selective enhancement as photoshopping, I can see where one could call it that.

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It's probably a debate as old as modern astrophotography, and it will appear every once in a while, probably with the same conclusion: not much. By modern I mean the era of digital CCDs and image processing software.

There's even a documented "school of thought" with a website and all, that rejects the use of manually selective processing. Look at the last bullet here in their "manifesto": http://astro-photographer.org/dsa/statement.html

Fun stuff! Or maybe not so.

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
New picture alert: By email, RSS

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Tony showed in his workshop he reveals detail in the core by selecting the core and adjusting the histogram on that feathered selection. To me, that's photoshopping. Can you get similar, perhaps better results with a simple HDRWT applied to a wavelet-masked image? Yes you can. Is that photoshopping? I say it isn't but others may argue it is I guess.

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I think "photoshopping" applies to both. Obviously adding or deleting data is "photoshopping", but for me, a dramatic change in the brightness within a single object makes me think "fake" too.

Tony's approach with lasso and curves are pretty similar visually to the results from HDRWT to some extent. It's a normalization of dark objects and bright objects to become very similar in brightness. I agree the HDRWT is more precise, but the results are pretty close.

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Cuttin' Edge Observatory

Used Finderscope - Canon Elan - Kodachrome 200

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I think "photoshopping" applies to both. Obviously adding or deleting data is "photoshopping", but for me, a dramatic change in the brightness within a single object makes me think "fake" too.

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Tony's approach with lasso and curves are pretty similar visually to the results from HDRWT to some extent. It's a normalization of dark objects and bright objects to become very similar in brightness. I agree the HDRWT is more precise, but the results are pretty close.

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"Visually" and "the results" are keywords here. Again, you judge the results, not the techniques. Which is fine, and I'm sure there'll be a lot of people who will say that who cares what you did in order to get those results, all you care is what you can see. I can understand that.

But to compare the marquee tool + histogram transform to the HDRWT tool is like comparing bacon and sunshine. I believe you understand how the HDRWT tool works and what it does behind the scenes, it has nothing to do with the marquee tool. Plus the lasso tool will always add certain degree of arbitrariness.

We're just debating this stuff, not writing up a manifesto, of course

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
New picture alert: By email, RSS

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Yes,I too had a blast -- my first time there. T'was great meeting folks, although I did not get a chance to chat a bunch since the presentations and vendors kept us all very busy. I believe the only CN person I did not meet was the very elusive Bud -- next time Bud!

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I'll tell you what I'm going to do. On my next target, I'm going to try to find the patience to write up a step-by-step to tutorial on how I process it. Then you'll tell me if I'm two steps behind or not and at the same time, point out what you would've done differently. That way we all learn from each other. I just hope to find the patience, when I process I just want to see the results, not to carefully take screen shots and document it, but I'll try

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Well, astrophotography is about showing the detail in our photos. As long as you play with the levels in the first time, it's photoshoping, and there is nothing wrong with that, because astrophotos are not as everyday photos

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If you have the data on your raw image and you can reveal them better with a lasso tool, then that's just fine.

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More on that in a minute...

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
New picture alert: By email, RSS

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I really wish I had caught up with you also.....wanted to shake your hand and get to know you a bit....maybe next year.

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Same here! Next year... you bet!!!

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
New picture alert: By email, RSS

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If someone processes an image using the original data, how can it be "photoshopped"? Most of us know what M31 looks like.

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Well, Tom Davis probably doesn't know how a particular dark cloud is going to look. Only after he does his "before/after" thing he starts to see how it really looks like. And probably that's why Tom doesn't use the lasso. Heck if he did, he'd be "drawing" the cloud! How cool is that? Not cool at all.

Just because Robert Gendler one day took a wonderful picture of M66 didn't stop Ray Gralak from finding an amazing tidal loop around it later.

When I've got my "deep field" of the Pleiades I was disturbed to see so much red around them. Only one old image from Adam Block and Tim Puckett showed so much red. I even asked him about that and his answer was "I don't know". So maybe you/we think we know how M31 looks like but apparently we don't know how M45 looks like. Which BTW is kind of cool. So you take a picture of M45 and what do you use as a reference? I'll tell you what you use: your data

Have you seen the legendary deep shot of M45 from Tony Hallas? It's all blue. And I mean it's all 100% blue no matter where you look at. Later Tony did another M45. Now there's a tint of red around Merope! And shortly after I took my M45 shot, a friend did it too and suddenly, there was red all around it as well. Huh? The truth is, I still don't know how it looks like.

And the more we defend arbitrary selective processing, the more it'll probably take to know.

Yes, the lasso is an easy way to solve certain problems, but is it the most exciting way to unveil our data? What I'd like to advocate here, if it's worth anything, it's not to say "the lasso is illegal" but that there are other ways, newer ways if you will, and probably better, than the traditional ways others one day "discovered" and have learned to grow with. Aaanyway... I'm going to try to undust a post someone once wrote to me that was at least somewhat inspiring. Maybe it'll inspire others, maybe not, but it's worth a try..

No Mike, there's no end to the debate, but it's ok I think for it to pop every once in a while. It keeps us fresh and perhaps entice someone to try new things, who knows...

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
New picture alert: By email, RSS

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There's even a documented "school of thought" with a website and all, that rejects the use of manually selective processing. Look at the last bullet here in their "manifesto": http://astro-photographer.org/dsa/statement.html

Fun stuff! Or maybe not so.

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lol
gotta love the manifesto juxtaposed with such heavy handed application of HDRWT on the home page

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-bill w

nexstar 8 GPS
canon 300D, Toucam Pro II
SXV-H9C, H9, SX Exview autoguider, SX-AO
FS 102 (OLV), FS60 CSV, 8" LX200R, G 11
http://astro.whwiii.net/
image processing monitor calibrated to just differentiate darkest boxes:

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lol
gotta love the manifesto juxtaposed with such heavy handed application of HDRWT on the home page

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Ah yeah... I remember telling Carlos (one of the "signers") their images tend to look overprocessed (and that's coming from me!) only to get a response that... well, you know the deal.

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
New picture alert: By email, RSS

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Yes,I too had a blast -- my first time there. T'was great meeting folks, although I did not get a chance to chat a bunch since the presentations and vendors kept us all very busy. I believe the only CN person I did not meet was the very elusive Bud -- next time Bud!

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John,

I'm sorry I wasn't able to catch up with you.....I went looking during one of the breaks and introduced myself to a bunch of guys hoping that you would be one of them.......perhaps next year.

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Hey Bud,

Yeah, I asked David and Ozy about your whereabouts and it was always "he was just here". But this is a tiny planet indeed, I'm sure our paths will cross soon

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JOhn A Davis

Scopes: TEC 140, FSQ 106ED, FS60C, LX200 ACF 10", Borg 50mm, CPC 800

Mounts: TAK EM-200, AstroTrac

Cameras: STL-11000M, Canon XSI (Hutech Mod), Nikon D-80, Orion SS Autoguider, ToUcam

My astrophotography Blog...
http://downthewormhole.blogspot.com/

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Your argument is the reason I asked Tony Hallas, 'How do you know what is really there vs. not there?'.
One of the hardest parts of processing for me is knowing what should be there and not - especially in diffuse nebulae. Is it a gradient? Is it nebulae? With LP you don't have the luxury.
I don't recall him having really have a good answer, otherwise I would've remembered it. The intergalactic flux is a good example....which is what he was using as an example.

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One thing that disappointed me about Tony was exactly what you just said. I found him saying "I don't know why" way too often. 10 subs of 10 minutes is better than 1 of 60 minutes "I don't know why". You don't? What do you mean you don't know??

LP is your enemy. And that's why you need to head to darker locations or settle with either mediocre work or stick to narrowband (and still), planetary and/or planetary nebulaes (if the seeing allows it!). That's just the crude truth.

Mike, Coe is too far for you to go there often, but try Montebello sometimes. Less than ideal, but probably better than your backyard. Check this page around New Moon to see whether people are heading to a site that's convenient for you (this goes for you Mike and anyone living in or around the SF Bay Area).

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
New picture alert: By email, RSS

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Your argument is the reason I asked Tony Hallas, 'How do you know what is really there vs. not there?'.
One of the hardest parts of processing for me is knowing what should be there and not - especially in diffuse nebulae. Is it a gradient? Is it nebulae? With LP you don't have the luxury.
I don't recall him having really have a good answer, otherwise I would've remembered it. The intergalactic flux is a good example....which is what he was using as an example.

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I DO remember part of this conversation -- I remember Tony said he offset the scope and imaged again to see if the "flux" moved with the scope (which would be an artifact) or not.

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To what image was Tony referring when he tried to verify whether that was IFN or something else? Is it this one from December 2008?

I missed Steve Mandel's speech, but anyone who's imaged the northern IFN knows it was Steve who discovered and mapped it quite clearly in the first place all the way back in late 2004 and early 2005. If you image a known IFN area, simply compare it to Steve's images and also with another one from Jordi Gallego (May 2008), probably the most clear image showing the IFN to that date. I also have two images that show a bunch of IFN but I don't advocate using my images as a reference

Anyway I missed that part during his workshop and I'm a bit surprised to hear he said that, since in his image there's no "new" IFN as far as I can tell. Did he claim not to know about all the IFN that's floating around there?

As for the rest of your post, I agree 99% (I leave 1% out mainly to keep it open to interpretation, nothing else).

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
New picture alert: By email, RSS

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I'd like to say that I never photoshop my images.....simply a bit of curves..and that's all.

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Well, darn..........here I put this little deal in my answer hoping to have someone pick on me, and every one ignores it.

I did say "I'd like to say"....but I can't. I use every trick, mask, manipulation, star reduction, noise removal...add multiple fields from multiple cameras and scopes......all of it, to make a "pretty picture".

There, I've said it......I feel better now.

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Warmest regards,

bud guinn
http://www.budguinn.com

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I did say "I'd like to say"....but I can't. I use every trick, mask, manipulation, star reduction, noise removal...add multiple fields from multiple cameras and scopes......all of it, to make a "pretty picture".

There, I've said it......I feel better now.

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That's too funny!

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~Mike

AP Mach1GTO
Orion 8", AT66ED, Tak. FS-60CSV
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, SXV-H9

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Here is an example of a very slight "photoshoping"......I did just a slight levels and curves adjustment....and maybe a tad of saturation.



I took this just as it was dipping below the ocean/horizon

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If you think about it, anyone using the Hubble color palette is displaying a totally false image. Those are not the real colors of these objects, but thanks to the notoriety of the Hubble Space Telescope these are routinely passed off as "good" images.

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Yes yes yes... BUT! The colors of the HST images actually do have scientific value, because they help identify different wavelenghts, and therefore evaluate how the different gasses spread, move or interact.

When we use deconvultion, noise reduction, etc. we're trying to "correct" the limitations our optics and electronics give us. If I paint "this area" of a nebula in green because it looks cool, I've taken a license that alters the reality of the object. Yes, AP is both art and science, but the image Bud posted up there with the nebula dipping into the ocean is also art, and yet, we don't see much of that here. Why? Because the line that separates art and science in AP, although blurry, it does have limits.

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
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If you think about it, anyone using the Hubble color palette is displaying a totally false image. Those are not the real colors of these objects, but thanks to the notoriety of the Hubble Space Telescope these are routinely passed off as "good" images.

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Yes yes yes... BUT! The colors of the HST images actually do have scientific value, because they help identify different wavelenghts, and therefore evaluate how the different gasses spread, move or interact.

When we use deconvultion, noise reduction, etc. we're trying to "correct" the limitations our optics and electronics give us. If I paint "this area" of a nebula in green because it looks cool, I've taken a license that alters the reality of the object. Yes, AP is both art and science, but the image Bud posted up there with the nebula dipping into the ocean is also art, and yet, we don't see much of that here. Why? Because the line that separates art and science in AP, although blurry, it does have limits.

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I agree that the HST has GREAT scientific value, but us amateurs choose to use the same techniques now simply for the artistic value. Granted it is a very different thing than painting an area green just because we want to because there really is OIII out there doing what it's doing. I also very much agree there is a line someplace between pure art and what we are doing. Like pornography, I can't define it, but I can recognize it when I see it.

This image of M42 that I took a few years ago is my most artistic in terms of not sticking to the really of the colors as well as layering techniques of shorter and longer exposures to effectively increase the dynamic range. It is indeed artsy, but is one of my favorite images of this nebula none the less. I'm hoping to re-image M42 this season with my better camera, better mount and better processing skills.

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Chris Vedeler

Astro-Physics 160EDF
Astro-Physics 900GTO
Q453HR / QHY8 CCD camera
Canon 450XSi
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www.aznightsky.com


Scottsdale, AZ

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I agree that the HST has GREAT scientific value, but us amateurs choose to use the same techniques now simply for the artistic value.

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just like the point out that the HST team puts a great deal of thought into the artistic value as well, right down to the orientation of the image and emotional impact of the colors.

Here's a great read on the subject by travis rector et al.

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-bill w

nexstar 8 GPS
canon 300D, Toucam Pro II
SXV-H9C, H9, SX Exview autoguider, SX-AO
FS 102 (OLV), FS60 CSV, 8" LX200R, G 11
http://astro.whwiii.net/
image processing monitor calibrated to just differentiate darkest boxes:

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My 0,02 Euros
As an astro imager I don't add anything to images.
Only manipulation done is Stretching, curves and levels.

As an artist I balance different components in an image differently, so I can show the hidden beauty by a way I like to.

I have even removed all the Stars from the image to better understand and show the complexity of the actual nebulosity.
I can compare this to a CAT Scan image, where different tissues can be seen. It's still a real image of the human been, even skin and clothes can't be seen.

Sometimes the artistic/creative way to look things can have scientific value.
Good science allways have a creative component in it.

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This is the first honest message in the thread. Very well said!

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Nice entry Vicent. About 20 people, if not more, have participated in this thread, and in 5 seconds you just implied none of them were honest.

Maybe you want to post here what you once wrote to me, you know when and about what. Despite the mess that came out of it, I left the room with very valuable information. Perhaps it will be of help to others as well.

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DeepSkyColors.com
Henry Coe State Park, CA

EM400 + FSQ106EDX + C9.25 + STL11K + Canon 40D mod. + patience and coffee
New picture alert: By email, RSS

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