Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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Hi,
I am considering these two cameras. Trying to figure out which is the better camera, I failed....
QSI has a very nice and cost effective feature of utilising 1.25'' filters instead of 2'' for the other one (and matter of factly for any other manufacturer using KAF8300). On top of that it is available as a wsg body with integrated guider port. It tips the scales at 1.3kg.
On the other hand, Apogee with its Alta series is proven in the field. High quality, excellent cooling, a bit heavy and you have to use those 2'' filters. Which actually might not be a bad thing at all, but a future need.... 
Please, I will more than appreciate your insight.
Clear Skies,
Vassilis
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Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:05 AM)
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fetoma
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/26/06
Posts: 1099
Loc: NW Ohio
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Don't count out the FLI ML8300 and the QHY9.
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Frank in NW Ohio
Vixen CF VC200L and R200SS
Meade SN-10
Celestron 9.25" SCT
Meade 8" f/6.3 SCT
Intes-Micro M73
Stellarvue 80/480 LOMO Triplet
Takahashi FS-60C
Celestron CGE
QHY8 and SXV-H16
www.jerseydevilastronomy.com
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Alph
sage
Reged: 11/23/06
Posts: 261
Loc: Melmac
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Quote:
On the other hand, Apogee with its Alta series is proven in the field.
Same applies to QSI. The main disadvantage of the QSI-583 is the slow download time. Some people say it is not a problem though. If you can cool down the QSI to -20C under your weather conditions then that’s all what you need.
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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Dont knock slow download speed either, as a slower speed helps in readout noise.
Theo.
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Tomvictor
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/09/04
Posts: 509
Loc: N.59.11.47. Norway
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Hi Vassilis, so have you ruled out the 4021/22 chip? It is hip to be square :-)
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Tom Victor
http://www.ccd-astrophoto.com/
Takahashi EM-200 - 10" LX200ACF - Artemis 4021M - Mini Borg 60ED - FLI CFW - DSI PRO II. Canon EF200L f/2.8 - 450D - Baader mod. 350D.
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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Quote:
Don't count out the FLI ML8300 and the QHY9.
I agree for the FLI, but not for the QHY9. I have see quite a lot of serious QC issues, however solved.
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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Quote:
Hi Vassilis, so have you ruled out the 4021/22 chip? It is hip to be square :-)
Yes, I do. After thorough thinking and testing, I concluded on this sensor for my current and short-term setup.
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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btieman
sage
Reged: 07/24/08
Posts: 483
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I have a QSI520--not same chip, but same platform. I've also used several chips on the Alta platform as well. The Altas are nice--nothing wrong there. However, my next camera will be another QSI. They are very well designed--mechanically and electronically.
Brian
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CPC 1100
Orion 120st
Milburn Wedge
QSI 520i
Meade DSI Pro
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Alex Ranous
member
Reged: 09/05/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Redwood City, CA
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SBIG just announced the ST-8300 at AIC today.
- Both Mono and Color versions
- 7.7 sec full frame download - 1 sec focus mode
- Read Noise 8e-
- Cooling -40C max
- Small - same body as ST-402
And the best part - $1995
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Televue NP101is
MI-250
Q453-HR
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Alph
sage
Reged: 11/23/06
Posts: 261
Loc: Melmac
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Quote:
And the best part - $1995
Is that a typo? If that's the fact then other vendors of the KAF-8300 based cameras will have to lower prices to compete with SBIG.
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8687
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
Quote:
And the best part - $1995
Is that a typo? If that's the fact then other vendors of the KAF-8300 based cameras will have to lower prices to compete with SBIG.
No typo, Alph...they have a working model here. They saved money by utilizing the old ST402 case. I put myself on the pre-order list.
David
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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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LLEEGE
Running out of Oxygen
Reged: 03/03/05
Posts: 9082
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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MAN! What a deal! Can the old 402 body achieve -40C cooling?
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"Okay! You draw the straws. I'm-a taking the parachute."
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lineman_16735
Tak-o-holic
Reged: 12/04/04
Posts: 2604
Loc: Central PA
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The deal breaker for me is that the new ST-8300 does not have an integrated guide chip. I would pay $3k with the integrated guider but thats just me. It also will require new filters and filter wheel as the filter size for this camera is 36mm. I also assume it is still USB 1.
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Chris
A mount from Illinois
A scope from Japan
A camera from Cal-I-Fornia
A dog from Kentucky
A wife and kids from the "Twilight Zone"
The Geek Shed
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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Lineman,
Yep, I have the same issues, by the time you buy everything you can buy the FLI or the QSI.
I think the old sized 36mm filters is not a great idea either. If you are going to sell off your 1.25" filters, wheel and camera, you might as well buy a 2" set with wheel and another camera. Then if you decide to go a larger chip in the future, you will not have to sell another set of filters and wheel at a loss.
I like SBig, I own one, but it seems to me this is a low ball camera that is meant to compete with the other cameras that are on sale or even the new Orion 8300 camera that is said to be coming.
I just can not see where the SBig would be a better deal that say the QSI with internal filter wheel and OAG and then you can use your existing filters.
Floyd
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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Quote:
Quote:
Don't count out the FLI ML8300 and the QHY9.
... but not for the QHY9. I have see quite a lot of serious QC issues, however solved.
If solved what are you talking about then ?. 
What are "Serious QC issues". The ONLY issue that has given grief was the front of the filter forming a dew spot for certain users in high humidity locations.
The QHY-9 has no further issues even in 99% humidity areas.
Maybe you should read or ask someone that has one rather than speculate on old news.
From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Theo
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:50 AM)
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Alph
sage
Reged: 11/23/06
Posts: 261
Loc: Melmac
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Quote:
I just can not see where the SBig would be a better deal that say the QSI with internal filter wheel and OAG
4590.00/1995.0 = 2.3
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:07 AM)
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8687
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
MAN! What a deal! Can the old 402 body achieve -40C cooling?
Hey Luke....the SBIG guys said that -40 can be reached, but typically, the regulated temp will be -35. Not bad. I'm on the pre order list for a OSC version.
David
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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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4590.00/1995.0 = 2.3 ?
The $1995 does not include a filter wheel or an OAG, so how do you figure that comparison?
The ST8300 @ $1995 vs. QSI at $3500 would be a more fair comparison though.
However, the new ST8300 is in the lessor case not the one like the ST2000. So of course it would be somewhat cheaper to produce.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Fabio Papa
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/01/05
Posts: 1460
Loc: Piacenza, Italy
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Are you sure on the USB1 thing? This could also be a deal breaker. The 8300 generated image is huge. What would be the download time with such a huge image and usb1?
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Fabio Papa
Celestron C8 F/10
Vixen ED81SWT F/7.7
Orion Atlas EQ-G
Gruppo Astrofili di Piacenza
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Don't count out the FLI ML8300 and the QHY9.
... but not for the QHY9. I have see quite a lot of serious QC issues, however solved.
If solved what are you talking about then ?.
What are "Serious QC issues". The ONLY issue that has given grief was the front of the filter forming a dew spot for certain users in high humidity locations.
The QHY-9 has no further issues even in 99% humidity areas.
Maybe you should read or ask someone that has one rather than speculate on old news.
From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Theo you should rethink on how you reply to people and see the bigger picture.
http://qhyccd.com/ccdbbs/index.php?PHPSESSID=4be533f256c9315a18844598b9c5442b&topic=1729.0
In my community "we" have 4 QHY9s and all of them have (had) some issues. Circuitry, memory, heat elements, etc. You are right I cannot speak for all QHY9s. Unfortunatelly I have seen in person only 4 examples.... and by coincidense all of them had something, even small, to do before you were free to use them as it said on the tin. In my book this is bad QC. Now it seems that I know what I am talking about and I am not speculating.....
However and in order to be fair, Q has solved them all and the after sales service was OK. QHY9 is a fine product that delivers. I am just reluctant to give my hard earned Euros for something that will not work right off the box.
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:51 AM)
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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Dont always believe its a QC fault, and i will tell you why..
I had a few cameras come back to me for "QC" issues, but after a little talk to the customers, and a promise not to charge them, they told me they fiddled/looked inside the camera and stuffed something up.
So NO its not all QC, and you will find many users do like to see inside their camera, i do. As for heater elements faults, none ever failed.
I have not had 1 real QC issue for the many cameras i sold here in Australia.
But of course you get some that sneak thru, as with ANY product, even cars.
But i would refrain fom making a "Generalised comment". To say its "In order to be fair", theres nothing fair. Theres bad luck in anything, i even had a $9000 LCD TV from Sony that was dead on arrival, and they failed to fix it 3 times, they eventually replaced it. I dont say Sony have a bad QC, or should i ??..
Anyway, direction is moving away from what you were asking.
Back to the question in hand.
Theo
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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Quote:
Are you sure on the USB1 thing? This could also be a deal breaker. The 8300 generated image is huge. What would be the download time with such a huge image and usb1?
From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Theo.
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:11 AM)
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hewholooks
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/31/08
Posts: 1684
Loc: Central Ohio
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It's USB 2.\
Here's some info from the Anacortes site.
http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=653576
Sorry, but it's the only place I could find it.
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Hunter Wilson| Lexington, Ohio
My Image Galleries
Celestron 9.25
APM/TMB 130/780 Apo Refractor
Orion ED80
Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L USM Lens
SBIG ST-4000XCM
Astro-Physics Mach1GTO
Skyshed POD
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:12 AM)
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hewholooks
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/31/08
Posts: 1684
Loc: Central Ohio
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Competition is good 
Quote:
From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
--------------------
Hunter Wilson| Lexington, Ohio
My Image Galleries
Celestron 9.25
APM/TMB 130/780 Apo Refractor
Orion ED80
Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L USM Lens
SBIG ST-4000XCM
Astro-Physics Mach1GTO
Skyshed POD
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:13 AM)
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DeanS
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/12/05
Posts: 962
Loc: Nicholasville, Kentucky
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Quote:
Quote:
Hi Vassilis, so have you ruled out the 4021/22 chip? It is hip to be square :-)
Yes, I do. After thorough thinking and testing, I concluded on this sensor for my current and short-term setup.
I saw on the Sbig presentation a new ST4000 mono, that is something I would be interested in. Would be able to use available filter wheels and of course the internal guide chip. If you look at the size of the chip it is not that different.
I am also looking at a new camera but not so sure I want to go with pixels as small as the 8300. And the slow download speed concerns me. I will be at Chiefland next week and a friend is bringing his new QSI so I will get a first hand look at it working.
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AP1200GTO AP900GTO
TOA-150 Tak E160
C9.25 Tak FS60C
SXV-H9 ST2000XM STV
8" LX200GPS
Meade 12" Lightbridge
Moonlite Focusers
www.doghouseastronomy.com
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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The 8 sec download is the same as Apogee, faster than QSI (23 sec) and slower than FLI at 2 sec.
But, I think they would all be USB2.
No guide chip available with this new ST8300 model.
Looks like it uses a new filter wheel and 36mm filters.
Cooling is about the same at the ST2000xm.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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OK, let's start from a clean sheet of paper.
I've read that this chip performs superb abetween -25 to -30 C. That means you need about Delta 50 for my area. How important is this? I mean is it a deal breaker? If it is, then QSI goes out of the window due to the fact that I have to use it only during winter....
QSI applied to me for a lot of reasons. Quality, lightweight, compact (integrated wheel), 1.25 filters and most important integrated oag. Coming to that how important it is to guide through the main scope (oag) for focal lengths say in the region of 500mm to 1200mm. I am an oag virgin, I've been guiding with a guide scope (very rigidly mounted on a SW EQ6 Pro) and I had no problems with differential flexure whatsoever (900mm imaging fl, 700mm guiding fl). So, is it important at this range or not? That will also be a deal breaker...
Clear skies
Vassilis
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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ZMass
sage
Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 269
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Quote:
I've read that this chip performs superb abetween -25 to -30 C. That means you need about Delta 50 for my area.
Gosh I'm sure the chip does perform well at -25c. My understanding was that -10c was the target point for this ccd, with anything lower just being gravy. If -25c is the target, then the FLI would be the only acceptable camera during the summer for many of us. I'd like to hear comments from some camera owners on this one.
Quote:
QSI applied to me for a lot of reasons. Quality, lightweight, compact (integrated wheel), 1.25 filters and most important integrated oag. Coming to that how important it is to guide through the main scope (oag) for focal lengths say in the region of 500mm to 1200mm. I am an oag virgin, I've been guiding with a guide scope (very rigidly mounted on a SW EQ6 Pro) and I had no problems with differential flexure whatsoever (900mm imaging fl, 700mm guiding fl). So, is it important at this range or not? That will also be a deal breaker...
OAG vs guide scope could be a whole discussion. I think the answer is situational. If your current guiding setup works, there may be no reason to change. I do know that working with a separate guide scope is easier.
--------------------
-Zeke Mass
Encinitas, CA
6" Custom Newt on CG5
CCD Labs Q285M (Qhy2 Pro)
ST-80 guide-scope with DSI Pro
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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I didn't mentioned that my longest sub was 10min and the max fl 900mm
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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DeanS
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/12/05
Posts: 962
Loc: Nicholasville, Kentucky
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I have just started guiding with a MMOAG and love it so far. No problems finding a guide star. A bit of a learning curve to get it set up right but seems like it is the ticket. That is one reason I would consider the QSI, but the download speed concerns me.
--------------------
AP1200GTO AP900GTO
TOA-150 Tak E160
C9.25 Tak FS60C
SXV-H9 ST2000XM STV
8" LX200GPS
Meade 12" Lightbridge
Moonlite Focusers
www.doghouseastronomy.com
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8687
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Certainly, an off-axis guider is the best for a couple of reasons; the lack of weight and the flexure that the extra weight can cause. However, I have my guidescope mounted with solid rings, not guide rings and it sits on top of a Losmandy D type plate. Being a TMB80SS, it certainly isn't heavy.
SBIG has done something pretty nice here. I doubt that they would release a camera that is not up to their exemplary standards. If you need off-axis guiding and an integrated filter wheel, you need a different camera. However, if you're like me and don't require all of that stuff (I'm on the list for a OSC), then $1995 is really terrific!
David
--------------------
Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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Quote:
The 8 sec download is the same as Apogee, faster than QSI (23 sec) and slower than FLI at 2 sec.
But, I think they would all be USB2.
...............
From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:14 AM)
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LLEEGE
Running out of Oxygen
Reged: 03/03/05
Posts: 9082
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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Quote:
However, if you're like me and don't require all of that stuff (I'm on the list for a OSC), then $1995 is really terrific!
David
I agree. The OSC could be a winner at that price.
--------------------
"Okay! You draw the straws. I'm-a taking the parachute."
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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Quote:
.......I've read that this chip performs superb abetween -25 to -30 C. That means you need about Delta 50 for my area. How important is this? I mean is it a deal breaker? If it is, then QSI goes out of the window due to the fact that I have to use it only during winter....
...................
The 8300 is a new series of low noise sensors.
It performs great even from -5 deg C. At -10, you only have a handfull of hot pixels.
Heres an image of a stack of 5 minute subs x 15 images with temp only at -11 deg C.
No darks taken, just used median combine.
Dont worry about temp too much, the cooling is fine.
Theo
From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:16 AM)
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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Richard Crisp did a series of test on the FLI and Apogee and the FLI though downloading much faster, did not have significantly more noise.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:17 AM)
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 979
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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mmmm Decisions decisions... Theres just so many options..
SBIG ST8300 (OSC and Mono)
FLI ML8300 (OSC and Mono)
QHY9
Apogee Alta U8300 (OSC and Mono)
QSI 583 (OSC and Mono)
Orion Parsec 8300 (OSC and Mono)
The SBIG is the cheapest which really shocks me.. And likely something I'll investigate in the not to distant future.
I also read on the net that SBIG will be doing an STX 8300 (OSC and Mono) camera, giving you better cooling, ethernet options, on board guide chip and all the other flash things you expect from the SBIG cameras... Optcorp have the STX8300 listed as pre-order @ $5800 iirc.. Kind of expensive considering it doesn't have the integrated filter wheel like the STL series cameras had, however with the many advancements given in the STX series cameras, I don't think that will sway the voters much !
Isn't it great to have options!!
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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mnaf
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 788
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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Hey, don't forget about the Starlight Xpress SXVR-H18 - it's due in Dec. or so and reportedly smaller and lighter than the others with faster d/l time than the QSI.
I'm pretty interested in their 8300 version. I know some performance criteria are chip-based but SX has a history of low noise designs....
This is going to be an interesting market to watch!
--------------------
~Mike
AP Mach1GTO
Orion 8", AT66ED, Tak. FS-60CSV
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, SXV-H9
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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OK, let's say that:
SBIG out due to "strange" filter size and wheels
Orion out due to price (similar specs with higher price than QHY9)
You are ending with 3 "high end" cameras and a low price one. The low price has on paper and in reality at least the same level as the high ones. So, you have to pay a premium for no other reason than name and support. The high ends have one exception, QSI with the innovative design of integrated filter wheel and oag but with the negatives that we have already discussed. Therefore I conclude that the QHY9 (albeit with the negatives that I described on a previous post) has the best compromise between specs, results and price. And if you want oag I think a good one is Orion deluxe at around $100.
Am I missing something here?
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
Edited by Vassilis (11/02/09 04:33 PM)
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 979
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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The SXVR-H18 will indeed be interesting..
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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Alph
sage
Reged: 11/23/06
Posts: 261
Loc: Melmac
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Quote:
The SXVR-H18 will indeed be interesting..
The download time is indeed fantastic just 4.5 seconds. I am afraid though that the camera will be way more expensive than the ST-8300. My prediction is that the ST-8300 will put the SXVR-H18 out of business.
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 979
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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I've just pre-ordered the ST-8300M.. Price alone makes it a winner. I've got an FLI 2-5 filter wheel loaded with Astrodon 3nm NB filters already, so I wont have to worry about those silly sized filters... Even once its shipped to Australia, its cheaper than all the other options by a fair few hundred dollars.. It was a no-brainer really..
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Theo.
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:19 AM)
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SGT500
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/03/06
Posts: 2924
Loc: Ny
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Quote:
I've just pre-ordered the ST-8300M.. Price alone makes it a winner. I've got an FLI 2-5 filter wheel loaded with Astrodon 3nm NB filters already, so I wont have to worry about those silly sized filters... Even once its shipped to Australia, its cheaper than all the other options by a fair few hundred dollars.. It was a no-brainer really..
What size are the filters for the St8300? and what filter wheel would one need to use with the 8300M?
at 1995$ for a cooled 8300 CCD im strongly considering switching to the dark side.  
--------------------
-Sal
AstroTech Ritchey Chretien 8"
Williams Optics Zenithstar 80
Orion Atlas Eq-G
Hap Griffin Modified Canon Eos Xs (1000D)
My Astrophotography Gallery
My Sketch Gallery
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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This camera will use 36mm filters with a new filter wheel available in January.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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The camera uses the ST402 case, smaller and less expensive. It has no self guiding chip or Auto-guider port either and all of this holds down the price.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 979
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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SBIG are making a proprietary 36mm filter wheel for it, and baader, astrodon and custom scientific will be making filters in the crazy 36mm size..
I have spoken to the Australian supplier, I will easily be able to mount the ST-8300M onto the FLI 2-5 filterwheel I already have and use the 50mm filters I already have...
If you already have 2" filters, you can use them just fine.. Otherwise it may be cheaper to get the SBIG 36mm setup...
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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After thorough thought and research I concluded that the title of thiw topic should be (for me...) QHY9 vs SBIG ST8300.... :-)
I think that two things make them appart. Buffer ram (I didn't read anything in SBIG's site but with 7.7 downloading time it's OK) and delta difference of about 15c between them. Now I believe, as it was stated by others, that this is OK, especially if you consider that SBIG is costing $500 less. Therefore, I am considering very seriously SBIG.
Any objections between these two?
As far as the wheel and filter size are concerned, I can see that a 2'' set might be at the same price (even lower) than the SBIG's 36mm setup. I am not very much inclined to 1.25'' solution due to the fact that even SBIG states that it will narrow the scopes that you can at f7-7.5 and above.
Now, let's see what it will be.....
P.S. You really helped me guys with this one. Thank you.
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
Edited by Vassilis (11/03/09 09:19 AM)
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navger
newbie
Reged: 11/26/08
Posts: 3
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Post deleted by navger
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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Guys, guys, guys.....
SBIG ST8300 or QHY9...??????
I have an hour ...... deadline..... After that I'll place an order.... probably for an SBIG!!!!
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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You should make up your own mind on which to choose. Others have opinions, but it should be yours that makes the decision. 
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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You are right, but two posts ago (?) I asked the same thing as far as the technical side is concerned. So, please, if somebody sees something tech spec concerned then I'll be more than happy to hear (read...) it.
Thank you.
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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WillCarney
member
Reged: 10/08/09
Posts: 35
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Quote:
Guys, guys, guys.....
SBIG ST8300 or QHY9...??????
I have an hour ...... deadline..... After that I'll place an order.... probably for an SBIG!!!!
To bad you don't have the time. I just noticed that Orion has come out with a 8300 based camera.
William
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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Any technical comparison between these two (SBIG - QHY) ?
Thank you William, I've seen Orion and I am not interested. Although, more than an hour has passed, I'd appreciate any tech insight between the two.
Thank you.
Clear Skies
Vassilis
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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The ST8300 is not even out yet, so it is pretty hard to compare them technically, other than looking at the information pages on each.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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ZMass
sage
Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 269
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The SBIG looks like a heck of a deal. I wonder if they'll be able to keep up with demand. I keep thinking, "whats the catch?". Specs look good.
--------------------
-Zeke Mass
Encinitas, CA
6" Custom Newt on CG5
CCD Labs Q285M (Qhy2 Pro)
ST-80 guide-scope with DSI Pro
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1744
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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Here's the S-Big announcement
http://www.sbig.com/sbwhtmls/ST8300.htm
sounds pretty good!!!
--------------------
Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
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Alph
sage
Reged: 11/23/06
Posts: 261
Loc: Melmac
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Quote:
SBIG are making a proprietary 36mm filter wheel for it, and baader, astrodon and custom scientific will be making filters in the crazy 36mm size..
There is nothing crazy about it. It is actually a good thing. The 1.25" filters will cause vignetting with very fast telescopes. QSI have come up with a 31mm filter wheel for the QSI-583 and other models to mitigate vignetting caused by their standard 1.25" filter wheel.
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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Vassili,
Dont panic, your not going to miss out on anything.
From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Theo.
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:21 AM)
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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AH, 1.25" is 31.75mm! So a 31mm filter is not larger than a 1.25" filter. Not sure what QSI is doing, but it is my understanding that they are just using 1.25" filters in their internal wheel. IT is due to how close the 1.25" filter is to the CCD chip that allows them to use them without vignetting.
The SBig is an external wheel, this is why they need the extra 4.25mm in diameter when faster focal ratios are used.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1744
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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Your right Blue, the only question I would have is the 23 sec. download time with the QSI cameras.
--------------------
Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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Hi,
Yes the long download time the requirement to place the focus star on the top of the image for focusing to avoid this long download, it one of the real issues I had with the QSI.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Nocturnal
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/14/05
Posts: 1033
Loc: CT, USA
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The QSI doesn't have fast download nor sub frames for focusing? That's surprising. My camera takes around 20s to download during imaging but fast download only takes seconds.
--------------------
Best,
Sander
C11-HyperStar on Atlas EQ-Q driven by EQMOD
William Optics M110 With FR-III/TRF-2008
DS2090 guide scope
QHY-8, DSI-Pro and DSI cameras
watec 802h video camera with KIWI OSD
Astro stuff: http://www.tungstentech.com
My Astro Photos
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 979
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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I have a friend with the QSI583, and the download time is the only thing about it that he does not like... I can't say I blame him either... 23sec is a fair time to wait for a sub.. it doesn't seem like it, but if you were running 100x5min subs, you could have captured another 6 frames in the time your camera has taken to download... The SBIG ST8300 at 7.7sec is very reasonable, and the FLI at 2.2 seconds is incredible... A lot of people will say that using the fast download rate on the FLI will introduce noise, I have it on good authority that it doesn't, a friend of mine with a PL11002M claims to download the full 11mp frame in about 2.5sec for his imaging, he's tested it at the slower rate that takes about 10sec and saw no appreciable difference..
However, I'm quite happy to wait 7sec for an image when the camera is $1500 USD cheaper than the FLI..
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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Nocturnal
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/14/05
Posts: 1033
Loc: CT, USA
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Ah, things just got a bit more interesting:
http://qhyccd.com/ccdbbs/index.php?topic=1758.new#new
QHY comes out with a color version of the QHY9 priced similar to the QHY8 which would be $1500. If they're not dropping the QHY9 to the same price then that means the color version of the 8300 is really getting dumped out there.
Now where's the popcorn, I'm going to sit back and enjoy the show 
--------------------
Best,
Sander
C11-HyperStar on Atlas EQ-Q driven by EQMOD
William Optics M110 With FR-III/TRF-2008
DS2090 guide scope
QHY-8, DSI-Pro and DSI cameras
watec 802h video camera with KIWI OSD
Astro stuff: http://www.tungstentech.com
My Astro Photos
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8687
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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I've read an awful lot of not so good things about the QHY9 and all of the stuff that's had to be done to make it function. Whether or not Qhy has gotten it straightened out is still up in the air. I don't think SBIG has too much to worry about.
Having said that, I had a Q8 and had no problems with it. We shall see.
David
--------------------
Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 979
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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most if not all of the QHY9 issues have been resolved in a timely manner.. I dare say the new OSC QHY9 will be a good camera... Me, I'll spend the extra coins on a mono camera...
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
|
fetoma
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/26/06
Posts: 1099
Loc: NW Ohio
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Quote:
I dare say the new OSC QHY9 will be a good camera
Well, think about that statement now, and tell us what you really and honestly mean by it?
Sorry if that puts you on the spot Alex, but I think alot of people would say the same thing.
--------------------
Frank in NW Ohio
Vixen CF VC200L and R200SS
Meade SN-10
Celestron 9.25" SCT
Meade 8" f/6.3 SCT
Intes-Micro M73
Stellarvue 80/480 LOMO Triplet
Takahashi FS-60C
Celestron CGE
QHY8 and SXV-H16
www.jerseydevilastronomy.com
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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Quote:
...
Having said that, I had a Q8 and had no problems with it. We shall see.
David
Wrong !.
Go back some time and you got exactly the same talk, like QC issues, not working right, problems here and there.. Which, like any "New" model comming out has issues, the QHY-9 was released with testing only done in China, and not to beta testers in other parts of the world. The 2 main issues with the 9 was users applying 18V instead of 12V, and damaging the shutter board. It had to be redesigned so "User error" was a little more forgiving. The only main issue that occured with the 9 was with "Some" users in hi humidity areas having their front filter show a small fog spot.
As its been told millions of times, but it keeps getting dragged up, it has been rectified and it performs better than ANY of the other cameras in this area now. The 9 now handles up to 99% without an problem.
The 9 has no other issues, and is fully functional and performs the same as any other camera.
Instead of reading 4 month old issues, ask the ones that still are using their cameras.
Theo.
From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:25 AM)
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8687
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
Quote:
...
Having said that, I had a Q8 and had no problems with it. We shall see.
David
Wrong !.
Go back some time and you got exactly the same talk, like QC issues, not working right, problems here and there.. Which, like any "New" model comming out has issues, the QHY-9 was released with testing only done in China, and not to beta testers in other parts of the world. The 2 main issues with the 9 was users applying 18V instead of 12V, and damaging the shutter board. It had to be redesigned so "User error" was a little more forgiving. The only main issue that occured with the 9 was with "Some" users in hi humidity areas having their front filter show a small fog spot.
As its been told millions of times, but it keeps getting dragged up, it has been rectified and it performs better than ANY of the other cameras in this area now. The 9 now handles up to 99% without an problem.
The 9 has no other issues, and is fully functional and performs the same as any other camera.
Instead of reading 4 month old issues, ask the ones that still are using their cameras.
Theo.
From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Sorry. I was just going by what I've read from the complaintants.
David
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:27 AM)
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 979
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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Quote:
Quote:
I dare say the new OSC QHY9 will be a good camera
Well, think about that statement now, and tell us what you really and honestly mean by it?
Sorry if that puts you on the spot Alex, but I think alot of people would say the same thing.
I've had 2 QHY cameras, and think that generally speaking they are great, the images I got out of my QHY8 were fantastic, and it performed exactly as I expected it to. I can only speculate on how the QHY9 OSC will be, but going on my experience with QHY cameras, and the fact that its using the KAF8300CE sensor, I dare say it will be a good option for many people. Its not for me, as my only interest is narrowband imaging, I'd prefer the mono sensor. I was going to get the QHY9, however being that its a fair few hundred dollars cheaper, I ordered a ST-8300M instead.
The issues with some of the QHY cameras have never been QC issues, they are purely an issue with the end users local environmental conditions that QHY had not initially tested the cameras for. 100% relative humidity is not common, and so they had not been rigourously tested for those conditions. As soon as the fogging issue reared its ugly head, a solution was devised and quickly implemented...
I see no reason to say anything other than I think the QHY9 OSC will be a good camera for people looking for an OSC camera for a short focal length scope, where the QHY8 or QHY8 Pro's 7.8um pixels may yield a poor, undersampled resolution.
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
|
Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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Absolutely correct Alex.
Teething issues will always occur on new cameras.
Lessons learned by the manufacturers helps fix the next models up. But this is also a catch 22, as the new model is again, with new technology and ideas, so your smack bang in the middle of a "New" camera, with again, new possible glitches. I never buy the first release of anything, software/hardware, etc, and said by another smart man on an earlier post (But bought one anyway on this occasion), i wait a little, let them get the kinks out and then buy it. Its just that not every test can be perfomed sometimes, and needs some wierd users adaption or condition to bring out the quirks. The Color vesion will be no different to the current model except just a chip swap basically.
David, like yourself, you own the QHY-8, and know how simple and good the camera is, but to another that reads some old posts of the initial release, would skip right over it.
Theo.
From the TOS: "vendors/manufacturers are to refrain from commenting on their competitor’s equipment (directly or indirectly). Please restrain your comments to products you manufacture or resell." Any such comments have been deleted from this post. CH
Edited by Charlie Hein (11/08/09 08:29 AM)
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