blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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I ordered the ST8300 today from Anacortes, got on their Pre-Order List as #2! Should receive it on the first shipment and it will ship to me from SBig which is only 100 miles from here.
I will be trying the CFW-9 with 12.5" filters at first, until the filter wheels are available for the 36mm filters. SBig stated when I called today, that I might as well try it and see how it works, because I have the CFW-9 and filters and it will fit the ST8300. They have done this and with Narrow Band images at f/5.4 (NP101 which is one of my scopes) and f/7, the test images looked good with no real vignetting! However, they are not sure how well RGBL will work, so it is just something to try.
So, hopefully next year will be a good one for photography! I would really appreciate some good seeing and clear nights. 
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Ricky
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/09/03
Posts: 2361
Loc: Nor Cal
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pics when u get it!!!
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Regards Ricky
_______________
ADM Mount w/SiTech GoTo
WO ZS66
Orion Autoguider
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JerryWise
Postmaster
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 7833
Loc: Lexington, SC
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I think I'm going to go for it to. Likely the color version if offered. I tried the QHY 8 and it didn't work out. SBIG coming out with this is an outstanding move on their part. Wonder if you can pre-order through Astronomics? Mike?
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Jerry
Celestron C-11
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Ricky
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/09/03
Posts: 2361
Loc: Nor Cal
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BTW CONGRATS! 
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Regards Ricky
_______________
ADM Mount w/SiTech GoTo
WO ZS66
Orion Autoguider
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DanB
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 827
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Quote:
I ordered the ST8300 today from Anacortes....
I would really appreciate some good seeing and clear nights.
Blueman
Congrats Blueman, I bet you're excited:-) You have a nice collection going there!
Me and you both on the clear skies. Its been cloudy and/ or full moon bright for me, I cant get an image in edgewise. All I've seen with the AT8RC is the moon and I've had it for 2 month's now, sheesh!
Cant wait to see some stuff from your new camera and that AT8. I see you are a vendor but dont see a webpage, thought I'd finally ask?
Dan
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AT8RC astrograph
AT80ED refractor (guidescope)
10" Meade f4.5 reflector
8" Meade f6 reflector
EQ6 Skywatcher/Synscan
Meade DSI (Guide camera)
CCD Labs Q453 (Main imager)
Nebulosity 2
PHD guiding
"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual".
- Galileo Galile -
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neutronman
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/10/08
Posts: 1020
Loc: Dallas, Texas
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Congrats! I saw the camera at AIC - nice and small and light. I bet SBIG sells a bajillion of them!
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JOhn A Davis
Scopes: TEC 140, FSQ 106ED, FS60C, LX200 ACF 10", Borg 50mm, CPC 800
Mounts: TAK EM-200, AstroTrac
Cameras: STL-11000M, Canon XSI (Hutech Mod), Nikon D-80, Orion SS Autoguider, ToUcam
My astrophotography Blog...
http://downthewormhole.blogspot.com/
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lineman_16735
Tak-o-holic
Reged: 12/04/04
Posts: 2604
Loc: Central PA
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Quote:
I will be trying the CFW-9 with 12.5" filters at first
Man I'm gonna need a bigger scope to take advantage of 12.5" filters  All kidding aside, congrats and I can't wait to see some images from this camera. I'm on the fence.
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Chris
A mount from Illinois
A scope from Japan
A camera from Cal-I-Fornia
A dog from Kentucky
A wife and kids from the "Twilight Zone"
The Geek Shed
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi,
The color version will be made as well. Might be a few made in December, but they are concentrating on the Mono version for the first run.
I believe you can Pre-Order through any dealer. I used Anacortes only because they had a list and I save sales tax.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Ricky,
I will post pics as soon as I can.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Dan,
No web page, I make custom items by order, all hand made and I do not need a web page, it is just a hobby sideline.
Yeah, weather is the worst part of imaging, you are under its control at all times. Hope to have a better year than this one.
I am getting some good equipment finally. Takes time and it never ends. 
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Oops, slip of the finger, 1.25" of course! 
Thanks, it was a hard decision, but it is made now and there is just the wait.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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jmasin
sage
Reged: 12/22/08
Posts: 489
Loc: Murphy, TX (DFW)
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Congrats!
I'm thinking of making the jump from DSLR to this. Did they indicate WHEN delivery may occur? I'm trying to figure if I have a chance of getting something when I'm home for 2 weeks around Christmas time.
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Cheers,
Jon
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Orion Atlas 8" (203mm f/4.9 on Atlas EQ-G)
Tasco 60mm (~35 years old and still kicking!)
Nikon D300, 80, 70 & many lenses
http://www.pbase.com/jmasin/astro
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1742
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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I just got my order conformation from Anacortes for the OSC version.
I was going to order a QHY-8, till I watched Jerry's ordeals.
This camera fits my 101is way better, in fact one of their test shots used the Np 101, North American neb.
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Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
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Chuck D.
member
Reged: 07/13/09
Posts: 44
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Quote:
I tried the QHY 8 and it didn't work out.
What did you not like about the QHY 8?
Chuck D.
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Jmasin,
Just sometime in December, no firm date yet.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Lawrie,
I got my conformation too!
They will be making the color version December too, so you should get yours then as well.
SBig is only 100 miles from me, so I like dealing with a local manufacturer, I can even drive over if I need to do so.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Howie_in_AZ
member
Reged: 09/03/09
Posts: 12
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I'm still on the fence between this and the FLI ML8300, which has far better cooling.
Still, this one would be some $1500 less than the FLI...
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8645
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
Hi,
The color version will be made as well. Might be a few made in December, but they are concentrating on the Mono version for the first run.
I believe you can Pre-Order through any dealer. I used Anacortes only because they had a list and I save sales tax.
Blueman
After the announcement was made at the AIC, I went to the OPT booth and became #1 on their pre-book list.  I ordered the OSC, though.
David
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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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BlueGrass
member
Reged: 07/25/09
Posts: 73
Loc: Wasatch Front, UT
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Going to order one this weekend... SBig looks to be the better camera for the money... just a question for you experts though. If I use a 2" VB on my 8" SCT will there be much vignetting or will I get better results binning?
--------------------
C8 / EON 80 APO
CGEM / CG5
ST80 with SS AG setup
Canon 1000d
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Howie,
I too did a lot of research on this and after talking to people that own a 8300 chip camera, FLI, QSI and Apogee, they all seemed to agree that you do not have to deep cool the chip like you do most of the Kodak chips with -10 being about the max required. There you have about .1 electrons and from there you will reduce this by 50% for every 6c you drop, but that just means that you would have .05 at -22c and you will just not see the difference. Even at 0c, the noise is very small.
So, do you really need the super cooling? I am not convinced that you do and this is why I bought the SBig. At this price I can have the Camera, 8 filters and 9 position filter wheel for(about $4000-4250)about the cost of just the camera and filter wheel from FLI ($4150) and with the FLI I will still have to spend another $1500-1900 for the filters.
So, as you said, about $1500+ less money.
Now, I think the FLI is a great camera and maybe it is worth the extra, but I am on a budget and I have to save where I can.
The $1500-2000 will come it handy should I decide to buy the new AT10RC when they come out, they will cost about $3000, so it would pay for most of it. In fact I could sell the AT8RC and would have enough to buy it.
All of this and more is what made up my mind. Hopefully it is the right choice. I really do believe that SBig will come through with a nice camera.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi David, you sure beat me to the punch! You should enjoy the OSC and take some great shots with it.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 966
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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There isnt a real need for super coolings as blueman said, for the 8300.
Personnaly, i believe -20 is about the best all rounder setting for the 8300.
You only get a handfull of hot pixels, and will easily blend away with a median combine when stacking, without having to revert to dark frames.
..
Theo
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mnaf
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 787
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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Quote:
I used Anacortes only because they had a list and I save sales tax.
Thanks for the reminder Blueman!
I'm #1 - or very close to it - on SBIG's mono pre-order list (following David's lead at the AIC). But I forgot that SBIG stands for SANTA BARBARA Instrument Group. Looks like I'll be calling Anacortes in the morning, too, it'd be nice to save the sales tax - that's a 2" filter!
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~Mike
AP Mach1GTO
Orion 8", AT66ED, Tak. FS-60CSV
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, SXV-H9
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Yeah Mike,
The tax is about $200! That really is a lot of money when you think about it.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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SanDiegoPaul
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/22/05
Posts: 1328
Loc: San Diego
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Darn - now my ST2000xm just dropped in value BIG TIME!
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Meade 10" Lx200-R with Mitty Evolution Wedge
Moonlight SCT Focuser
Stellarvue Raptor 90 Triplet
SBIG ST2000 XM Imager
SBIG ST402ME CCD Guider
Canon Digital Rebel DSLR
Meade DSI-c CCD Guide Cam
Please visit my gallery!
http://www.pbase.com/sandiegopaul/
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greekoh
sage
Reged: 03/12/06
Posts: 292
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Floyd thats great news.
Look forward to seeing what you can produce for images with the new SBIG CCD.
Troy
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8645
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
Darn - now my ST2000xm just dropped in value BIG TIME!
Probably not, Paul. The two cameras are different. Someone looking for specs like your camera isn't going to consider an 8300 based chip. I believe you're ok.
David
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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8645
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
Hi David, you sure beat me to the punch! You should enjoy the OSC and take some great shots with it.
Blueman
I went from the hall that the announcement was made in right to the OPT booth and put my name on the list. I knew it wouldn't be on the webpage yet, so I went the direct route. Now we'll see if it pays off with an early delivery.
David
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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1742
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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The surprising thing (to me anyways) is the amount of camera makers that have or are making cameras with this chip.
QSI
APOGEE
FLI
SBIG- making two models
Orion
Starlight Express
QHY-9
This speaks well for the chip, the pixel size is good for faster scopes, then if you want to use a longer F/L you can bind it to a 10.4 pixel camera and still have 4 megs.
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Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
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mnaf
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 787
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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Quote:
...you do not have to deep cool the chip like you do most of the Kodak chips with -10 being about the max required. There you have about .1 electrons and from there you will reduce this by 50% for every 6c you drop, but that just means that you would have .05 at -22c and you will just not see the difference.
Hi Blue,
Not to split hairs here or anything but since we have time waiting for the cameras, might as well discuss 'em.
SBIG states that the read noise is ~0.02 e-/px/s at -10. This is a lot less than the the 0.1 you mentioned. If you follow the math it would be about 0.0125 e-/px/s at -28C and 0.00625 at -36C. Is that right? Seems ridiculously low especially since SBIG said that typical cooling would be about -36C.
I've been going back and forth comparing the 8300 chip to the Sony 285 in my SXV-H9. The H9 has read noise of 0.02 e-/px/s at +10C! 5 times lower than SBIG at twice the temp.. Man, those Sony chips rock - I really wish Sony would make a big chip!
Until then, seems like the 8300 is the best bang for the buck in chip real estate. From my estimates the 8300 gives up about 10% sensitivity in Ha and about 15% in OIII to the sensitive Sony 285 chip. Not a bad trade off for the extra pixels and ~47% QE in Ha is better than a poke in the eye.
One wild card in this market may be the SXVR-H18...supposed to meet or exceed competitors' specs and be smaller and lighter.
--------------------
~Mike
AP Mach1GTO
Orion 8", AT66ED, Tak. FS-60CSV
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, SXV-H9
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Nocturnal
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/14/05
Posts: 1022
Loc: CT, USA
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I think dark current and noise are being mixed in this discussion and they are not the same. Readout noise does not have a 'per second' unit after all. In fact SBIG says "Dark Current : ~0.02e-/pixel/sec at -10C."
So yes, while we're splitting hairs and discussing these interesting cameras, let's keep the units and terminology correct
--------------------
Best,
Sander
C11-HyperStar on Atlas EQ-Q driven by EQMOD
William Optics M110 With FR-III/TRF-2008
DS2090 guide scope
QHY-8, DSI-Pro and DSI cameras
watec 802h video camera with KIWI OSD
Astro stuff: http://www.tungstentech.com
My Astro Photos
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mnaf
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 787
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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My bad - I typed "read noise" when I meant "dark current".
--------------------
~Mike
AP Mach1GTO
Orion 8", AT66ED, Tak. FS-60CSV
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, SXV-H9
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Mnaf,
Well, the .1 figure was something that was said to my over the phone, but was probably just a figure not meant to be the actual one, but rather for comparison.
But the reality still seems to be that the noise is so low that cutting it in half by cooling 6c just will not make a huge difference in the image.
Remember that the -36/38c Delta is below ambient, not meaning that the chip would be -36c in reality.
So, the -10 that is mentioned is REAL temperature and not Delta. So if it was 79f (26c) outside, you would get -10c or 14f with the -36c Delta cooling at the chip.
Friends that are using this chip have told me that they do not really cool below -10c with it. They said they could not really see a big diffence between -20c and -10c so they just used -10c.
I figure that on most nights the temperature here is below 79f at my site on the mountain, 5,300'. So this should be fine for my needs.
The ST8300 is pretty light, it only weighs 1.8 lbs vs. say the FLI ML8300 at 2.8 lbs. The filter wheels are also also heavier with the FLI 1.6 vs. about 1 lb, so the overall weight will be about 1.5 heavier, or about 50% more.
I think that the FLI is probably a better camera if you look at all the features. But the price is a bit higher in the end and if you are on a budget, then the ST8300 is an attractive package.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Thanks Troy, I too look forward to seeing what the camera can do.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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On the filter wheel front, I just can't take the fact that you have (???) to spend this ammount of money for a 36mm filter wheel. I beleive, as someone said, that it's a better option to go for 2'' filters and wheel. With that in mind I dropped a line to SBIG and asked if FW8 (8 pos. 2'' for STL) is compatible with ST-8300. The answer was that in theory it is (software) but probably they have to build an adaptor for proper fitting (hardware). On top of that FW8 is also a stand alone unit which means that you can use with other imaging setups. The 36mm wheel I think is not capable of something like that.
Vassilis
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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mnaf
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 787
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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I've been thinking about "filter front", too.
I think 2" is more universal so I'm leaning towrds the SX filter wheel w/ interchangeable disks.
7 position 1.25" or 5 position 2". Easy tool-less disk changes, enclosed DC motor, thin, and powered through usb cable.
The best part: it's $495.
--------------------
~Mike
AP Mach1GTO
Orion 8", AT66ED, Tak. FS-60CSV
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, SXV-H9
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f29pc
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/23/05
Posts: 651
Loc: Maine
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Chris,
Even though I vowed a long time ago.. NEVER GET Version 1 of anything, I just did the same thing. Looks like a great package.
Paul
--------------------
12" LX200 UHTC OTA
10" LX200 EMC
WO 105mm APO, 80mm APO, 66mm APO
MI250
Next day air makes every night X-mas eve!
www.burkesobservatory.com
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Vassilis,
Yes, in fact the FW-8 is the most likely candidate for the 8 position wheel on the ST8300.
But, the cost difference between the 36mm and 2" filters is pretty high. This is why they are offering the 36mm alternative I think.
But, yes the 2" would be more universal, but the point of a loss cost alternative is to be lower in cost, right? 
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Really, it is tough to be sure what is the better way of going when you buy a new camera system. What do you use as the baseline for your decision?
If money is not a problem, that makes it much easier, you just buy the best available.
But if money is a problem, then you have to find the best bang for the buck I guess.
To me, saving $1500 is a big deal. Maybe I should just buy the more expensive setup and deal with the cost over time, buying part now and part later?
But, every camera or filter wheel or filter set will depreciate as soon as you buy it. So, when you go to sell it you will not get your money back. This is just the way it is I guess. So, you buy what you think you will use and then hope you get your moneys worth before you try to sell it.
If I had more money, I might buy the FLI and their 2' filter wheel and some good filters. but when I add it all up, I keep coming up with $5850 minimum plus shipping and or taxes for the setup, even on sale. $6000 is a lot more than $4100-4200, but if money were not a problem, that is probably the way to go. But $6000+ is a big amount for me as I am on Social Security and do not have a great deal of extra cash all the time.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Is the new SX filter wheel supported by CCDSoft? So far they have not released a driver for it. This is the program I use. I know that MaximDL ver5 supports it, but there is nothing on the info pages that tells about drivers or supporting programs.
I really don't want to have to buy MaximDL for $500 to use a $500 wheel. 
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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mnaf
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 787
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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Hi Blue,
No, CCDSoft doesn't support the SX wheel (yet??). Terry Platt confirmed. I know what you mean about buying Maxim - fortunately I use it so the SX wheel is attractive.
Still:
2" Wheel = 525
2" LRGB filters (Baader) = 690
Total = 1290
And..
Second wheel = say, 100
Ha,OIII,SII (Baader) = 635
Grand Total = ~2200
So, the SBIG wheel and 36mm filters might be more cost effective but it'll all be down to the cost of the filters; their new wheel is ~600.
Orion has a set of 2" LRGB for $350, but I don't know their quality.
I need a spreadsheet...
--------------------
~Mike
AP Mach1GTO
Orion 8", AT66ED, Tak. FS-60CSV
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, SXV-H9
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hey Mike,
I did some cost analysis and came up with this
FLI ML 8300 with 8 pos wheel RGBL, HA, OIII SII Baader filters and total was $5584.
ST8300 with 8 pos wheel and Baader filters (based on 20% increase over 1.25" filters) $4043. With the 5 pos wheel $3543. So $2000 less if I go with just the 5 pos wheel. I may have to go with that. But $1500 cheaper if I go the 8 pos wheel, still a big savings overall.
I like the Baader Filters or the Astrodon Gen2 filters the best. The others I have had issues with that I have tried, like halos and reflections.
Yeah, it is the cost of the camera and filters that is the big savings with the ST8300, the filter wheels are not cheaper by far. But they are supported and that is important.
I wrote Starlight and asked about upcoming drivers for CCDSoft, and await a reply.
I also wrote FLI and asked the same thing. I know the camera has drivers, but not sure about the wheel.
I am getting tired of buying endless software and updates. So I would like to continue using CCDSoft, which I actually like better than MaximDL. But it may come down eventually to support.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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mnaf
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 787
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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Yes, I really like the Baader Ha and OIII filters I have and would like to try their LRGB.
FYI..
I just saw this on Anacortes:
CFW9-8300 Filter Wheel
8 or 9 position 36mm filter wheel (actual number unknown at this time)
I2C port, or stand-alone (RS-232) like CFW10
~$1100 - Available 2010, month unknown at this time
Very nice but still a little pricey especially since it's in the 36mm format.
--------------------
~Mike
AP Mach1GTO
Orion 8", AT66ED, Tak. FS-60CSV
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, SXV-H9
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Nocturnal
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/14/05
Posts: 1022
Loc: CT, USA
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I'd think Starlight would just crank out an ASCOM driver and that would be that, right? I mean an ASCOM driver for a filter wheel couldn't take more than a few hours to write. There are only so many commands you can send the thing after all
--------------------
Best,
Sander
C11-HyperStar on Atlas EQ-Q driven by EQMOD
William Optics M110 With FR-III/TRF-2008
DS2090 guide scope
QHY-8, DSI-Pro and DSI cameras
watec 802h video camera with KIWI OSD
Astro stuff: http://www.tungstentech.com
My Astro Photos
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Sander,
You would think they would get right on the driver for this thing. But, for what ever reason they are dragging their feet.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Mike,
Well, what it will probably be is the FW-8 for the STL1100, modified to fit the ST8300 and with a new carousel to hold the 36mm filters. So, if they end up costing the same, $1100, that would make sense.
I would have hoped that they could have adapted the CFW-9 with a new carousel for the 36mm filters, but they could not do it for lack of room.
I may just go for the 5 pos wheel and save $500. Not sure yet though.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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SGT500
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/03/06
Posts: 2921
Loc: Ny
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Hello,
Right now im a DSLR imager but i think this camera is going to bring me over to the dark side. muhaha 
but in all seriousness, i was brought up thinking that you get what you pay for. how true might that be with this camera. would i be sacrificing anything really by getting this instead of the Apogee 8300? the SBIG is just about half the price of the Apogee. I know some might think that the filter wheel is a disadvantage but honestly i wouldnt care about 36mm filters.
I guess basically what im asking is would i regret buying the ST-8300 instead of saving up more for something like the Apogee 8300?
thanks for any help
-Sal
--------------------
-Sal
AstroTech Ritchey Chretien 8"
Williams Optics Zenithstar 80
Orion Atlas Eq-G
Hap Griffin Modified Canon Eos Xs (1000D)
My Astrophotography Gallery
My Sketch Gallery
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Sal,
Right now it is hard to tell whether the ST8300 will be as good as say the Apogee camera. There are only a couple of test images to look at so far.
The ST8300 is a basic camera, not too many bells and whistles and this is one of the reasons it is cheaper.
Chances are the cameras costing 2x the price of the ST8300 are somewhat better, one would hope so for the additional price.
But, the real question is this, does the extra cost mean better performance? This is something that only time will prove or disprove.
I am not usually one for being the first to own something, but in this case I decided to go ahead with the purchase. It think it is a good decision, but again, experiences will show whether it is or not. I can only say that SBig assures me that there is nothing left out of the camera and no short cuts were made to get the price where it is now. It is just a matter of a simple design that is cheaper to produce. I was told that if it were to be produced with the same body as the ST2000, it would cost $1000 more to produce. This is due to the cost of manufacture of the larger body and the materials required.
SBig wanted to skunk the competition, that is the reality here. They wanted to produce something that the others could not or would not do. There was no market to compete with the many other designs out there, if the camera were to cost the same as the competition, it would have been just one more to choose from really. But, by making one that cost a lot less, they just might corner the market for entry level 8300 cameras. Plain Jane, maybe, but not a cheap knock off, but rather a simple elegant design.
I think that if you have a big budget, well then you can take your pick of QSI, FLI, Apogee, Orion, Starlight or any of the other brands that seem to be priced close to each other. Each has its own attributes that make it different, cooling, speed, OAG or what ever. The choice is made more difficult with the large number of cameras, not more simple. 
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 966
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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You may want to ask "Where" its going to be manufactured.
I think it may be China, and that would explain the lower cost if the others are made in the U.S.A.
Cheaper cost also in the shutter, save a further $500 in just that area if you go for something similar and not a "Leaf" type shutter.
I wouldnt say the others are overpricing the cameras, so everything is relative to each other, and not absolute.
Remember, some gaurantee the CCD chamber for life like FLI i think ??, then theres also the 2 year warranty from another, etc.. So like i said, relative, and not absolute.
Sbig defenetely did cut back on many things that just were not needed. Just hope they remembered to put in the CCD Sensor .
Theo
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 976
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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I ordered mine too, first pre-order through the only SBIG distributor in Australia..
I already have an FLI 2-5 loaded with Astrodon Ha/SII/OIII/NII filters, so I needn't worry about trying 1.25" filters and or getting these crazy 36mm filters that SBIG are lining up...
I can't wait to do some narrowband imaging with a mono camera rather than tackling it with an OSC.. I was very happy to be able to get a camera with the KAF8300 sensor, as my focal length is only 480mm, I really need the smaller pixels... With my Orion SS Pro I was getting 3.35 arcsec per pixel, where as now its a much more respectable 2.32.
I am definitely waiting with baited breath for the delivery of this new baby! I just hope it gets here before christmas (there really is nothing worse than a late christmas present!)
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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SGT500
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/03/06
Posts: 2921
Loc: Ny
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Quote:
Sal,
Right now it is hard to tell whether the ST8300 will be as good as say the Apogee camera. There are only a couple of test images to look at so far.
The ST8300 is a basic camera, not too many bells and whistles and this is one of the reasons it is cheaper.
Chances are the cameras costing 2x the price of the ST8300 are somewhat better, one would hope so for the additional price.
But, the real question is this, does the extra cost mean better performance? This is something that only time will prove or disprove.
I am not usually one for being the first to own something, but in this case I decided to go ahead with the purchase. It think it is a good decision, but again, experiences will show whether it is or not. I can only say that SBig assures me that there is nothing left out of the camera and no short cuts were made to get the price where it is now. It is just a matter of a simple design that is cheaper to produce. I was told that if it were to be produced with the same body as the ST2000, it would cost $1000 more to produce. This is due to the cost of manufacture of the larger body and the materials required.
SBig wanted to skunk the competition, that is the reality here. They wanted to produce something that the others could not or would not do. There was no market to compete with the many other designs out there, if the camera were to cost the same as the competition, it would have been just one more to choose from really. But, by making one that cost a lot less, they just might corner the market for entry level 8300 cameras. Plain Jane, maybe, but not a cheap knock off, but rather a simple elegant design.
I think that if you have a big budget, well then you can take your pick of QSI, FLI, Apogee, Orion, Starlight or any of the other brands that seem to be priced close to each other. Each has its own attributes that make it different, cooling, speed, OAG or what ever. The choice is made more difficult with the large number of cameras, not more simple.
Blueman
Thanks for the insight Blueman. I dont see too much differece between the SBIG and higher priced competitors besides a little more cooling capacity. the chips are exactly the same so performance should be similar between cameras. the SBIG looks like a really good package.. at a great price.
--------------------
-Sal
AstroTech Ritchey Chretien 8"
Williams Optics Zenithstar 80
Orion Atlas Eq-G
Hap Griffin Modified Canon Eos Xs (1000D)
My Astrophotography Gallery
My Sketch Gallery
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Sal,
Agreed, I think that the SBig will probably perform on par with any of these cameras.
I have seen the more expensive ones for sale recently, used. Not sure why anyone would spend $6500 on a camera and only use it for 2 months and then sell it, but it is happening. I wonder if they just did not find the investment was paying off or whether they just did not find they were achieving their goals or what?
But I am betting that you will see more of these cameras for sale used in the coming months and if you are willing to wait and keep your eyes open, a deal could be found!
I have thought of this myself and if one came up that was too good to refuse, I would probably grab it and cancel the ST8300.
But so far most have been asking a high percentage of their investment and I think that makes them not a good deal. For only a 6-8% discount, I would prefer to buy new.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Alex,
I assume you are using MaximDL for imaging? I know they support the FLI filter wheels, but have not found out if CCDSoft will opperate them. I think I will have to call to find out.
The one reason for using the SBig filter wheel is that it plugs right into the camera and then is controlled in CCDSoft and I do like that.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 976
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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I'm using MaximDL at the moment, as I've been imaging with the SS Pro, Because Im fairly color blind, narrowband imaging is better for me, processing natural looking RGB images is a little beyond me! You're right, there is nothing nicer than the full SBIG setup. When I had the ST10XME + CFW10 + AO, having the whole lot plugged into the camera and just making one connection through CCDSoft was awesome. Not to mention the repeatability of the CFW10..
I too am not sure if the FLI wheel will work in CCDSoft, I'll have to look that up... Surely you can get a plugin for it... I have a friend here in Aus with the PL11002M whom uses the FLI 2-7 wheel, I'll have to ask him if he's got it running in CCDSoft..
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Alex,
I called FLI and they said that it will work in CCDSoft, but it does use its own USB cable and 12v power cord. They did say it would be controlled by CCDSoft, so I guess that answers that question.
Narrow Band is very cool, lots of detail with the band separation and the narrow band width.
I can understand the issue with RGB if you do not see it clearly, that would be tough.
After talking with FLI for a while, it makes my decision even tougher about the camera and wheel purchase. The FLI does have a lot going for it, more so than the ST8300, but of course at a cost. Still, really tempting to consider changing my order, though I am sure it would not make the dealer happy!
I still have time to consider before the order is filled, so I will not rush into anything.
But, the real issue that I am now having, after talking with SBig, is that the end cost is not certain for the wheels and filters and the actual availability as far as a date is concerned is not known. I hate dealing with uncertainty and making judgements based on guesses rather than facts. 
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 976
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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Great news! I had thought it would operate in CCDSoft.. Well, thats me sorted then.. Come December, I'll be pushing this camera around a fair bit I think... The joys of narrowband, even if it comes on full moon weekend, I'll be out taking 20min subs!
As for RGB, I see about 60% of the spectrum.. in photoshop, I can adjust the hue of an image +/- 5~7 points before I can actually discern a change in the image... its worse in the reds/pinks, blues/purples greens/browns, yellows/oranges... basically, all colours that are similar to you, are the same to me.. Narrowband means I can't get the colours wrong, as its simply my interpretation of the emission line data.. there's no right or wrong, just whats pleasing to me and what isnt..
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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Well, I just read this link http://stargazerslounge.com/imaging-discussion/90669-new-sbig-st-8300-fantastic-price.html and I realise that there might be a "catch", though not exactly catch but... nearly...
SBIG, with the announcement of ST-8300 and the new filter wheel and filters of 36mm, finally will solve another problem. Installing KAI4022 sensor to ST-10 type body. Sure they have it but only as OSC and not as monochrome (only with STL body). The reason was that 1.25 filters would create vignetting and 2'' filters could not be accomodated by the wheels of this body. Enter 36mm filters and voila.... SBIG will introduce ST-10 body type with KAI4022 monochrome sensor.
Does this ring any bell?
Yes, of course. KAI4022 and KAF8300 are similar in size (approximately same area) and SBIG has announced (*) that eventually KAF8300 will migrate to ST-10 type body (i.e., with internal guide chip, better cooling, etc) but it takes time (maybe within 2010). My guess is that the price will of ST-10 type body KAF8300 will be $3000-$3500, similar to FLI and Apogee. Therefore, I do not see that FLI and Apogee will alter their price policy. I think that SBIG had this in mind from the very beginning and they are offering KAF 8300 with STX, St-10 type and entry level ST-402 type bodies to cover all the spectrum. The target group I believe is the chinese camera buyers.
Clear skies
Vassilis
(*) Mike Barber (President of SBIG)
"First, thanks for the nice comments about the ST cameras. Second, as you may know, we already have the 4022 color CCD in the ST-10 type body, and now that we have an intermediate sized fitler wheel and filters, we are also offering the ST-4000XM (monochrome) in the ST-10 style body with a 4022 CCD. The 36mm filters will work quite well with this chip, too, as it is nearly the same size as the 8300. Actually the 4022 is a bit larger in area but about the same diagonal due to its square configuration. Eventually we will migrate the 8300 to the ST line but not until we re-do the electronics and this will take a while.
Regards,
Michael Barber
SBIG"
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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J.P.M
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/14/06
Posts: 1310
Loc: 65"01'N25"47'E
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Hi,
I'm a QHY9 user and a happy one.
The problems it has in early state, are solved.
Support from QHYccd has been great and fast.
There is now a heated CCD chamber window against fros etc...
Images taken with QHY9 (kaf 8300 chip), LX200 GPS 12" and camera lenses can be seen here:
http://astroanarchy.blogspot.com/search/label/nebula
--------------------
PER ASPERA AD ASTRA
J-P Metsavainio, Finland
LX200 GPS 12", SkyWatcher ED80, Canon 200mm EF f1.8L, Tokina 300mm AX f2.8, SXV-AO, QHY9, QHY8, QHY5, Lodestar
BLOG:http://astroanarchy.blogspot.com/
IMAGE PORTFOLIO:http://astroanarchy.zenfolio.com/
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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Maybe I was misunderstood. I didn't say anything wrong about chinese products. Matter of factly I am such a user (Equinox, EQ6, etc...). I just said what was the mentality and the policy strategy of SBIG concerning this product. They are offering a camera with very similar (not identical) specs for $500 less.
As far as your and other QHY9 users work, I am amazed.... We have in our community 4 such users and their images are perfect. I really like your bubble image for this month contest. Absolutely AMAZING!
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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m2434
super member
Reged: 01/01/09
Posts: 164
Loc: Boston, Ma
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Ah, I just can't decide, I want both! I put in an order a few days ago for a color version, but I have always preferred Mono for the sensitivity, narrow-band and editing capabilities. 
I went with color due to budget limitations, as I won't have the ability to buy 2" filters right away. Also, due to time constraints, as now a days I just don't have as much time to do LRGB or narrow-band imaging. However, I am also in a very light polluted area and would like to maximize my efficiency. Seems like mono would be better.... but how much? 
Any idea how well the color version will perform with say, narrow band filters? Maybe, has anyone using another camera with the same chip tried this? 
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi all,
Well, the more I have thought about this the more I am leaning toward buying the FLI ML8300 rather than the ST8300.
I know that I started this thread with a lot of enthusiasm and excitement. I thnk the ST8300 is a good deal too.
However, I am concerned a lot with the delayed release of the 8 position wheel and the lack of pricing and availablility of the 36mm filters at this time. No one seems to know when they will be available or how much they will cost or even which filters will be available. 
But, after looking at some test data that Richard Crisp has made available, I realise that as hot as it is here in the summer, I think I need the extra cooling of the FLI. The area you are in will dictate whether this is the case for you too. It is very hot in the summer and nights can be very warm or even hot. SO, 36c might only get my 0c to -10c
on some nights and this might not be adequate.
The other issue of whether to invest in 36mm filters or just go ahead and buy 2" filters that will work with about anything, has begun to sink in and my feeling is that I should just invest in the 2".
Hope that this thread has not caused problems or raised eyebrows. I just want to be up front with everyone.
I am not trying to talk anyone out of buying the SBig, but rather trying to explain why I will probably not buy it.
The OSC camera would be a better buy really and if I was in the market for one, then the ST8300 would be a great choice, no filter and wheel issues.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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I am on the same train (see the other thread..). Though from the begining of my search no 1 option was (and still is) Apogee with Alta U8300 and that great wheel of them that can take 9 50.8 filters (unmounted) or 7 square. That means that the investment in wheel and filters can accomodate your future needs also and that makes a financial (???) sense. You can even go for seven square for a few more dollars (Baader). I am still thinking on it.... It depends on another completelly irrelevant thing. That is if and how fast I can sell my other OTA... :-)
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Vassilis,
I can see your logic. But I doubt very much that I will need more than 7 filters. RGBL, HA, OIII, SII should do everything I want to do. Plus I am worried about weight too. The weight of the ML8300 and CFW-2-7 will be close to 5 lbs. That is about all that I want to try to lift with my focusing system.
Have you read the paper by Richard Crisp comparing the FLI and Apogee, looks like the FLI has lower noise at the same temperature and download time is 4 times faster?
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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ZMass
sage
Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 269
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I've never used an SBIG camera, so I'm a little confused. Is there a reason one wouldn't just use a standard 2" filter wheel with the SBIG? I know the idea is to save money by using smaller proprietary filters, but the argument for future compatibility of a 2" wheel makes more sense to me as well.
So does SBIG do something different on their nose-piece that forbids use of standardized threaded attachments? Or is it a matter of cable consolidation needs (you want the filter wheel to plug into the camera). If it's consolidation, then any camera/filter wheel combo will be somewhat proprietary - unless one sticks with the same ccd manufacturer in future upgrades.
I suppose that's just the wheel though, the filters can be removed and placed into another wheel... Hmm, feeling silly about all the 1.25" filters I've collected now. Should have planned my eventual upgrade from the beginning I suppose.
--------------------
-Zeke Mass
Encinitas, CA
6" Custom Newt on CG5
CCD Labs Q285M (Qhy2 Pro)
ST-80 guide-scope with DSI Pro
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Zmass,
The situation is rather complex though it seems simple enough.
There are many filter wheels on the market that could probably be fitted to the camera with T-Thread adapters. But some of them will not work in CCDSoft, which is my imaging software.
The ST402 body that the ST8300 is based upon, is set up to accept the CFW-9 or 10 filter wheel, which only uses 1.25" filters. The FW-2 is an SBig 2" filter wheel that was built for the STL series and can be adapted, with a special adapter that SBig will be making some time next year.
Yes, it would also be nice to be able to plug the wheel into the ST8300 camera, it has a special receptacle for that, but you will have to wait until there is an available wheel to plug into it.
The 1.25" filters work for a lot of chips, they are not going to be obsolete anytime soon. But a chip as big or larger than the 8300 will require 2" filters or 36mm will work for the 8300, but not for larger chips.
Yes, it might be a good idea to plan ahead if you intend to stay with photography, it might pay in the end by having stuff that is able to be used with upsized cameras.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8645
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
Hi all,
Well, the more I have thought about this the more I am leaning toward buying the FLI ML8300 rather than the ST8300.
I know that I started this thread with a lot of enthusiasm and excitement. I thnk the ST8300 is a good deal too.
However, I am concerned a lot with the delayed release of the 8 position wheel and the lack of pricing and availablility of the 36mm filters at this time. No one seems to know when they will be available or how much they will cost or even which filters will be available.
But, after looking at some test data that Richard Crisp has made available, I realise that as hot as it is here in the summer, I think I need the extra cooling of the FLI. The area you are in will dictate whether this is the case for you too. It is very hot in the summer and nights can be very warm or even hot. SO, 36c might only get my 0c to -10c
on some nights and this might not be adequate.
The other issue of whether to invest in 36mm filters or just go ahead and buy 2" filters that will work with about anything, has begun to sink in and my feeling is that I should just invest in the 2".
Hope that this thread has not caused problems or raised eyebrows. I just want to be up front with everyone.
I am not trying to talk anyone out of buying the SBig, but rather trying to explain why I will probably not buy it.
The OSC camera would be a better buy really and if I was in the market for one, then the ST8300 would be a great choice, no filter and wheel issues.
Blueman
Since I'm on the list for a OSC version, filter wheels are moot so I'll stick with what I consider the imaging bargain of the year. For me, it's just fine.
David
--------------------
Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3559
Loc: New Mexico
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I'm curious to see some first impressions on the ST8300. I'm in the market for a new CCD, and was considering the QHY8, but if it's everything it's talked up to be, I might want to spend the extra $$ on the ST8300 instead. Looks slick and I understand it works with certain SLR lenses out of the box? That's slick.
--------------------
-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi David,
I agree with you completely, the OSC version of the ST8300 is the best deal of all.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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SGT500
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/03/06
Posts: 2921
Loc: Ny
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i wonder if the Orion 2" motorized filter wheel would work with this camera. orion has some 2" LRGB filters that are reasonably priced
--------------------
-Sal
AstroTech Ritchey Chretien 8"
Williams Optics Zenithstar 80
Orion Atlas Eq-G
Hap Griffin Modified Canon Eos Xs (1000D)
My Astrophotography Gallery
My Sketch Gallery
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 976
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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Yes it would Sal, The Orion filter wheel attaches via T-Thread and the ST8300 presents a T-Thread on the nose piece.. they would mate together fine.. And yes, that would be one of the cheaper options for filters. The VERY cheap option would be the Orion manual 2" filter wheel and LRGB filters.. Or the Astronomik Filter Drawer setup.. any of those options would suffice.. Especially considering there is no set date for the SBIG 36mm wheel and filters....
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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Guillermo
newbie
Reged: 09/18/07
Posts: 4
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Quote:
Ah, I just can't decide, I want both! I put in an order a few days ago for a color version, but I have always preferred Mono for the sensitivity, narrow-band and editing capabilities
I would discourage you from buying a color version if your intention is to get the full resolution of the monochrome version.
I personally ordered the monochorome camera and I intend to use the st8300 for luminance and my Canon XSi camera for the RGB. Let's see if it works.
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 966
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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The Color Sony Sensor (ICX-453) used in many brands now, will out perform the 8300 OSC.
You will be going backwards if you go for the 8300 color.
There is nothing in the color sensor range that competes with it on a domestic level.
You will have more noise (Dark, etc), smaller footprint for starters.
You may want to look carefully at the specs of each.
But in the end, its your money, and what ever makes you happy, you should stick with it.
Edit : Does anyone have any info as to where the cameras will be made ?.
Theo.
Edited by Gama (11/07/09 09:40 PM)
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8645
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
Hello,
Right now im a DSLR imager but i think this camera is going to bring me over to the dark side. muhaha
but in all seriousness, i was brought up thinking that you get what you pay for. how true might that be with this camera. would i be sacrificing anything really by getting this instead of the Apogee 8300? the SBIG is just about half the price of the Apogee. I know some might think that the filter wheel is a disadvantage but honestly i wouldnt care about 36mm filters.
I guess basically what im asking is would i regret buying the ST-8300 instead of saving up more for something like the Apogee 8300?
thanks for any help
-Sal
Hey Sal...from what I gather, for the reduced cost you get a camera that is using a tried and true case that's already available so there's no cost for tooling or for a fancier case. You don't get a guide chip and you don't get dual stage cooling. 7.7 second full frame downloads seems reasonable. The camera has a shutter.
It seems, however, that the wait for the yet to be produced 36mm filter wheel could be a sticking point. Or, since it's t-thread equipped, you could use a different brand. SBIG said that Astrodon was going to produce 36mm filters.
Anyway, it still looks like the imaging bargain of our time. Can't wait to get mine!
David
--------------------
Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1742
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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Quote:
The Color Sony Sensor (ICX-453) used in many brands now, will out perform the 8300 OSC.
You will be going backwards if you go for the 8300 color.
There is nothing in the color sensor range that competes with it on a domestic level.
You will have more noise (Dark, etc), smaller footprint for starters.
You may want to look carefully at the specs of each.
But in the end, its your money, and what ever makes you happy, you should stick with it.
Theo.
You may want to rethink these statements, with the thought, why is almost every camera maker coming out with a camera using this chip, including the QHY series.
--------------------
Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
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ZMass
sage
Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 269
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The Sony 485 and the Kodak 8300 sensor are pretty different. Sony has much larger pixels, larger field of view. The two chips are different enough in format that a direct comparison really isn't all that useful. Given an equal performance from each chip, they would produce very different images on the same scope.
I don't see the switch from one of these sensors to the other as a very big change, but weather it's an upgrade or downgrade really depends on your other equipment and imaging goals. It does seem like a rather expensive sideways move though. (Assuming OSC to OSC, not mono).
--------------------
-Zeke Mass
Encinitas, CA
6" Custom Newt on CG5
CCD Labs Q285M (Qhy2 Pro)
ST-80 guide-scope with DSI Pro
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 976
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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Yep, Zeke has a great point.. I have the Orion SS Pro, the only reason im changing cameras is to pursue a very different imaging path... NB wide field imaging compared to my previous moderately long RGB imaging that I preferred, for the longer focal length, the colour sony sensor was the better option... Now that I'm wide field and narrowband imaging, the mono 8300 sensor is a much better choice for me.. I'll post direct comparison shots on here when I get the ST8300... I have a shot of Eta Carine done with the sony sensor, 4x25min @ 7nm Ha.. When the ST8300 arrives this will be my first image... same scope, mount, guiding setup, same site, just different cameras...
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 966
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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Alex, the first thing you will notice, is it will be sharper as long as your seeing is good.
The smaller pixels are great for small F/L scopes, packing more detail pershot.
Using my 8300M produced some clear and sharp shots on my 4" refractor. As pointed out by Alex, there is no point comparing these sensors with others. They each have there niche, and are different in many ways.
Theo.
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 976
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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My seeing is usually around 2 FWHM or there abouts.. with the Orion I was getting 3.35 Arcsec per pixel, with the 8300M It will be something like 2.25 arcsec per pixel. I should, as you say, see a sharper image for starters, not to mention a lot stronger data in narrowband shots.. rather than having only 1 in 4 pixels capturing photons through the Ha filter, I will now be catching light on every pixel..
So very excited.
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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remuscj
member
Reged: 04/05/06
Posts: 97
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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had the ST2000XM, just placed the order for the ST8300. It would probably put my old Nikon fixed lenses back on the imaging palette once again, and do good for the Gran Turismo (about 1.81arcsec per pixel).
--------------------
Remus
www.celestialportraits.com
--------------------
Takahashi TOA130F
Takahashi E210
Takahashi CN212
Astrophysics 130EDFGT
Pentax 75SDHF
Vixen FL80S
Celestron 5.5 Schimdt
Questar 3.5
Losmandy G11
Vixen Atlux
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Howie_in_AZ
member
Reged: 09/03/09
Posts: 12
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Quote:
Hi all,
Well, the more I have thought about this the more I am leaning toward buying the FLI ML8300 rather than the ST8300.
...
But, after looking at some test data that Richard Crisp has made available, I realise that as hot as it is here in the summer, I think I need the extra cooling of the FLI. The area you are in will dictate whether this is the case for you too. It is very hot in the summer and nights can be very warm or even hot. SO, 36c might only get my 0c to -10c
on some nights and this might not be adequate.
The other issue of whether to invest in 36mm filters or just go ahead and buy 2" filters that will work with about anything, has begun to sink in and my feeling is that I should just invest in the 2".
I'm not sure where you're located, but summers in the Phoenix metro area (even if one is ~35 miles outside of Phoenix) are still in the 90-100F range, so I'll definitely be going FLI. I, too, didn't like the idea of having 36mm filters, although I'm wondering if the 50mm filters will cover some of the other sensors that make me drool and my checkbook feel inadequate.
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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|
Hi Howie,
Well, today I got to purchase the ML8300 and it will be shipped this week. I was fortunate enough to get to take someones place in the production line que. I bought the camera, the CFW-2-7 (2" 7 position) fitler wheel and the FLI research grade 2" RGBL filters (Custom Scientific).
I will get it this week or the first of next week, just in time for my birthday on Saturday.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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DanB
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 827
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Well happy birthday my star loving friend!
And congrats on your new imager, looking forward too some images now!
Dan
--------------------
AT8RC astrograph
AT80ED refractor (guidescope)
10" Meade f4.5 reflector
8" Meade f6 reflector
EQ6 Skywatcher/Synscan
Meade DSI (Guide camera)
CCD Labs Q453 (Main imager)
Nebulosity 2
PHD guiding
"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual".
- Galileo Galile -
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Thank you Dan, I will be sure to post when I get my first light.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Howie_in_AZ
member
Reged: 09/03/09
Posts: 12
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|
Quote:
Hi Howie,
Well, today I got to purchase the ML8300 and it will be shipped this week. I was fortunate enough to get to take someones place in the production line que. I bought the camera, the CFW-2-7 (2" 7 position) fitler wheel and the FLI research grade 2" RGBL filters (Custom Scientific).
I will get it this week or the first of next week, just in time for my birthday on Saturday.
Blueman
Happy Birthday! Did you hear the new birthday custom is to buy someone else a gift on your birthday, so let me know when I can expect that FLI ML8300
Do let us know how it goes -- I've had my eye on the NP101is and AT RC8, hopefully sometime next year I'll have a setup similar to yours
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Howie,
Thanks a lot, I should have ordered two while I was on the phone! 
The NP101is would be great, I wanted the "is" but I could only afford the standard NP101 at the time. The NP101is with its larger focuser would work really well, even with a full size chip.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
|
mnaf
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 787
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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Congratulations Blueman!
Now, you have to post pics of the equipment and, of course, first light!
Oh, and HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
--------------------
~Mike
AP Mach1GTO
Orion 8", AT66ED, Tak. FS-60CSV
Discovery 80mm refractor
Meade LPI, DSI Pro, DSI Pro II, SXV-H9
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
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Hi Mnaf,
Thank you! Will do, I will take pics as soon as possible and then post the first light as well.
This will be my biggest chip so far and the most expensive camera setup too.
But, I am not getting any younger, so no reason to save money at this time. Heck, I have no idea of how many more years I will be able to do this.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
|
AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 976
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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|
Good going Blueman! I'm sure the FLI ML8300 and 2-7 will put a smile on your face... The FLI filter wheels are fantastic! My FLI 1-5 (2" 5 position) is brilliant. Mines loaded with Ha, NII, SII, OIII and a baader U filter..
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
|
Stathis
super member
Reged: 10/05/07
Posts: 170
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I have a question. If you are to buy the ST8300 and you want to use an AO from sbig, what else do you need? I heard somewhere that you must use a dedicated off axis guider, and guide cam.
--------------------
http://stathisastro.blogspot.com/
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f29pc
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/23/05
Posts: 651
Loc: Maine
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I don't think you can use an AO with the ST 8300. There is no internal guide chip, and no remote guide head port. The ST 8300 has a guider output, but no input.
--------------------
12" LX200 UHTC OTA
10" LX200 EMC
WO 105mm APO, 80mm APO, 66mm APO
MI250
Next day air makes every night X-mas eve!
www.burkesobservatory.com
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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Exactly. SBIG's AO units are designed to work with their dual sensor cameras. If you are using NB filters then the light isn't enough for guiding and SBIG suggests that you use an OAG (they are promoting Astrodon's MOAG) between AO unit and filter wheel with a remote guide head (SBIG's of course) connected to the remore guider port (that is on cameras with dual sensor). Therefore the only option for ST-8300 and an AO unit is to buy StarlightXpress or Orion unit.
By the way congratulation Blueman for the FLI and happy birthday
--------------------
Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1420
|
|
Thanks Alex and Vasilis,
Alex, glad to hear that the FLI filter wheels are a nice as I have heard. It is a bit heavy and large, but 7 positions makes this necessary. I will have RGBL, HA, OIII, SII fitlers loaded.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
|
AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 976
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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Strathis, f29pc is right, the ST8300 is not compatible with the SBIG AO unit as it lacks the internal guide chip and the remote guide port. The SX and Orion AO units will both work work with it however. If I move back to a longer focal length scope, I'll be getting the SX AO unit. J-P-M uses one in his fork mounted SCT with his QHY9, I have never seen results out of the LX200 mount that even come close to his, the AO unit will really compensate for a low end mount too.
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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WirelessDude
sage
Reged: 01/02/08
Posts: 219
Loc: San Tan Valley, AZ, USA
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An update on SBIG's website states that they will make many of their existing filter wheels compatible with the ST-8300 line. This includes the FW8-STL with the 2"/50mm filters...
At $1,995, I decided to buy two! The mono and color versions...
Clear skies!
--------------------
SkyShed POD XL
AP1200GTOCP3*
CG5ASGT+GPS/CG5
Gib5+SkyTour/Telepod
12"RCX400+UW/Mitty
12"LX200R OTA
C6XLT OTA
NP127is+1uFocusmaster
Meade80ED+2"MoonliteCF+Cercis
Pronto
TCF-S3/3"Pyxis/PDF
STL-11KM+FW8/AO-L/RGH/e-Finder
Astronomik 50mm LRGB/Ha(6+13nm)/Hb/OIII/SII
ST-8300M/C*
DSI3/2Pro/LPI
Eth6/13+Nag31+CZ8-24 EPs
2"2x/4x PMs/1.25"3x/5x TEs
*=ANY DAY!
Space Photons Observatory
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