Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page


Astrophotography and Sketching >> CCD Imaging & Processing

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)
psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Alph]
      #5600255 - 01/01/13 08:11 PM

Alf - except you can't even come close to using a 16803 chip in the 11" Hyperstar, which is why I got the 6" PowerNewt over a 6" Hyperstar: I want the widest field when I go wide-field, and image circle size and larger chips make best use of a wider field. I get a vastly wider-field image in my 6" PowerNewt than I could have gotten in a 6" Hyperstar, and the Veloce gets a much wider image than the 11" Hyperstar (and, theoretically, the new ASA F/2.8 astrograph should do the same).

Paul


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5602036 - 01/02/13 10:03 PM Attachment (33 downloads)

The mirror in the RH200 does not move until you adjust it for collimation.

Flexure is always a problem with accurate optics. Many years ago I was told by my Physics instructor that there was no such thing as a rigid body, but to make calculations easier we will assume all bodies are rigid.

Here is a mosaic I did last night. Four panels 7x8 minutes each in 3nm NII. FoV 6x6 degrees. Full resolution. 16MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/CAR_MOS_NII_L.jpg


Who needs thirty minute subs? When you have a RH200!

For RGB anything over four minute subs will saturate your camera. With this system trying to raise signal to noise with luminance data is a retrograde step.

Bert

Edited by Bert (01/02/13 10:24 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5602092 - 01/02/13 10:44 PM

Beauty Bert! Quite stunning. Something to be said about quick subs....

Paul


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: psandelle]
      #5602399 - 01/03/13 06:03 AM

Bert, something is wrong on your images.
Middle area, where signal is strong is OK, but most of the picture is too grainy. You either need more subs or more longer subs, or something is wrong with your processing.
And believe me, it really can be seen on 30" monitor...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5602931 - 01/03/13 12:42 PM Attachment (38 downloads)

Quote:

Bert, something is wrong on your images.
Middle area, where signal is strong is OK, but most of the picture is too grainy. You either need more subs or more longer subs, or something is wrong with your processing.
And believe me, it really can be seen on 30" monitor...




Hi Bert, I tend to agree.
Check this 5 min. frame - all I did here was calibrate bias and dark (NO FLAT) and Digital Development.
Cheers,
Harel


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: atalas]
      #5603499 - 01/03/13 06:41 PM

Quote:

Congrats on the new scope Harel!and a great first light...all the best for 2013!




Thanks Louie,
Wishing you a great 21013 and many clear skied nights under news moons :-)
Cheers,
Harel


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5603596 - 01/03/13 07:45 PM Attachment (19 downloads)

Knez and Harel I always process to show down to the noise. If there is no noise in your image you are throwing away signal.

Here is an animated gif from a crop of a stretched image to a tone mapped image with EasyHDR. 5MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/NII.gif

This is a crop from Kfir Simons image of the same area with EasyHDR tone mapping and original. Animated gif. 5MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/KSrgb.gif

Note how tone mapping allows you to enhance very dimstuff down to the noise without blowing out the very bright areas or stars.

This is an animated gif of the same area from my NII image and Kfir Simons. Both tone mapped.

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/NII_KSrgb.gif


You can judge for yourselves what is noise or signal in the very dim areas.

What the last animated gif also shows is that the RH200 can hold its own with an astrograph with 2.5 times the focal length and twice the aperture.

I am sure Kfir Simons image has far more fine detail than shown here due to jpg artefacts in the image of his I had to work with.

Here is his whole image tone mapped 6MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/rgKS__easyHDR_10.jpg

It would be even more stunning if I could use the 16 bit full resolution data.


Thanks for your input Harel no one of us has all the knowledge. I hope I have also helped rather than hindered.

Bert

Edited by Bert (01/03/13 09:15 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5603748 - 01/03/13 09:49 PM

This is just a general précis of my thoughts on noise.

The only measure we really have is signal to noise to compare any sort of measurement. When it comes to images we do have a problem. In the real world our limited senses do record lots of noise along with the signal. Our brains are quite adapted to work out which is which. This of course is purely subjective as anyone who has seen delusional people ignoring the obvious and conversely educated people ignoring the subtle signals that do not fit in with their model of the world.
Why is it then when a painting done in the ultra realist mode looks unnatural? Why does ultra real computer graphics also seem unnatural? In the real world there is noise in all of our sensory inputs and our brains response expects it so it can sort out the real signal.
The basic take home message is by all means maximise the signal to noise but do not eliminate the noise as then it makes the signal far less real or look manufactured.

Bert

Edited by Bert (01/03/13 09:51 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mikeschuster
super member


Reged: 08/25/11

Loc: SF Bay area
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5603827 - 01/03/13 10:41 PM

Bert,
Would it be possible to post a link to a raw RH200 subframe, no processing? IMO the highly processed results make it hard to understand what the hardware is doing.
Thanks
Mike


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: mikeschuster]
      #5604115 - 01/04/13 05:36 AM

Here you go Mike A single frame only corrected for darks and flats. 18MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/Ff_C_CRES_41200_-35C_-004NII...

I could put up a stack if you want it.

Bert


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5604234 - 01/04/13 08:32 AM

Quote:

Knez and Harel I always process to show down to the noise. If there is no noise in your image you are throwing away signal.

Here is an animated gif from a crop of a stretched image to a tone mapped image with EasyHDR. 5MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/NII.gif

This is a crop from Kfir Simons image of the same area with EasyHDR tone mapping and original. Animated gif. 5MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/KSrgb.gif

Note how tone mapping allows you to enhance very dimstuff down to the noise without blowing out the very bright areas or stars.

This is an animated gif of the same area from my NII image and Kfir Simons. Both tone mapped.

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/NII_KSrgb.gif


You can judge for yourselves what is noise or signal in the very dim areas.

What the last animated gif also shows is that the RH200 can hold its own with an astrograph with 2.5 times the focal length and twice the aperture.

I am sure Kfir Simons image has far more fine detail than shown here due to jpg artefacts in the image of his I had to work with.

Here is his whole image tone mapped 6MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/rgKS__easyHDR_10.jpg

It would be even more stunning if I could use the 16 bit full resolution data.


Thanks for your input Harel no one of us has all the knowledge. I hope I have also helped rather than hindered.

Bert




Thanks Bert, and thanks for the work invested in making the comparison.

First, I think that since both images are processed, it is somewhat hard to make a judgment, but what is certainly clear is that the Veloce has given you very good data.

Secondly, I am not sure about how this compares with Kfir's image, as the former is so over-processed and over-saturated, that it would be harsh to say that the end result ought to be indicative of the original quality of the data.

In other words, I can see (from your image and my own raw data, posted above) that the Veloce delivers some very good data; but I can't say it's better than what the Dream Scope delivered, since the processing has completely ruined it. I would love to think the Veloce does better than another super-scope of 16", but given the circumstances, this conclusion is not substantiated by the available information.

A general note - I love images which are easy on the processing trigger. I thus am always attracted to see more of Steve Leshin's, Tom Davis's, Jim Thomas's, JPM's and many others. I think that the Veloce's quality of data (just as the Dream's) is simply superb. By any standard. With such data one can lay down the arms, and process easy. Hard and over-saturated will get a "wow" from the crowd, but doesn't move anything in my heart.

Finally, I love such deep discussions on the hobby. They really make my day :-)

Cheers,
Harel


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5605307 - 01/04/13 06:02 PM

Quote:


I could put up a stack if you want it.





Could you, please, unprocessed stack?

Thanks


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mikeschuster
super member


Reged: 08/25/11

Loc: SF Bay area
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5605514 - 01/04/13 08:22 PM

Thank you Bert, for me no need for a stack. How was seeing when you captured this one?
Mike


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5605712 - 01/04/13 10:52 PM

Here Knez 14MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/RZ_P1.zip

7x8 min 3nm NII PL16803 at -35C

Seeing fair. I am only 16km from Melbourne. Fortunately there is a lot of parkland to my East and South.

Bert

Bert

Edited by Bert (01/04/13 11:01 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5605974 - 01/05/13 03:12 AM

Thanks Bert!

I'll try to process it over weekend.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5606681 - 01/05/13 01:57 PM

Mmm... I can't wait to see that result Knez!
Cheers,
Harel


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5607446 - 01/05/13 10:42 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

I was not going to tell you this Harel but the 'noise' is really faint stars blurred by very slight flexure. If it was real system noise you would see it in the very dark dusty areas.

I have just fixed this last little bit of flexure by bolting a stabilizing bar between the two dovetails of my side by side.

It seems the camera and CFW just put too much torsion on the image train dovetail due to gravity at slowly changing orientations with changing lateral forces that cause flexure.

The RH200 meanwhile is sitting very stable and not moving while the dovetail it is bolted to is twisting at its rear due to a too heavy image train.

I measured this flexure before and after and it is almost gone.

Here is a bigger image where you can see the dial indicator and the rest in better detail.

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/IMG.jpg

Tonights images will tell all!

Bert

Edited by Bert (01/05/13 11:54 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5608331 - 01/06/13 01:03 PM

OK, here is processed Bert's image the way I usually process my H-Alpha images. To be frank I do not know much more than I knew before and main reason for that is that I never imaged this object before with my setup. So it's very hard for me to judge RH200 performance without direct comparison with my telescope.
But I will try to make some observation: at first glance I don't see much improvement in resolution (but I could be very wrong for reasons I mentioned before) over my setup. Secondly, I think there is some lack of contrast compared to refractor. Also, I still think that there should be more subs (probably 2x) which would help with contrast.
Camera pixels could explain lack of resolution, 9um, image scale 3.09 arcsec/pixel which is not optimal.
Final question is: is there enough reason to buy RH200 and shoot with Atik 383L+ mono or maybe Atik 460 mono?
Very hard decision but based on what I have seen so far I must say no.
But I could be (very) wrong.
Luckily, I have at least 6 months to decide...

Bert's processed image (cropped to 2560x1600, usual resolution for my pictures):



Edited by orion69 (01/06/13 01:07 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Gleason
journeyman


Reged: 01/03/13

Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Alph]
      #5609047 - 01/06/13 07:05 PM

Several months ago I took delivery of the Officina Stellare RH200 F/3. I've not given up on the fabulous FSQ, as this is mostly more about my interest in very fast imaging systems going back to my long exposure Schmidt camera days. After a multitude of fine adjusments to collimation and tip tilt, I got this official first light last night before the latest storm.

http://imageshack.us/a/img577/4026/rh200horseheadbetatest.jpg


12 x 600s accumulated exposure time
6nm HA filter bandpass.
SBIG STL 11000
San Jose, California

This image was shot within San Jose city limits among about a million streetlights. The camera is a first gen STL 11000 and so is the 6nm AD Ha filter. Sky transparency was very hazy. Meaning, that much better contrast and detail are possbile from a dark site, and certanly a 3nm high transmission bandpass would isolate finer structures in the ionization curtain behind the Horsehead.

The telescope mechanics benefit greatly with the incorporation of a tip/tilt back plate, as f/3 is unforgiving of any array tilt. Let's just say a 10th of a turn of the tip/tilt screw will make a difference.

Cheers,

jg

Edited by Gleason (01/06/13 11:26 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Gleason]
      #5609081 - 01/06/13 07:21 PM

Your link does not work.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)


Extra information
3 registered and 16 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Oldfield, droid, Scott in NC, bilgebay, WOBentley 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 8487

Jump to

CN Forums Home




Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics