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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light
      #5587071 - 12/24/12 11:41 AM

Aligned with my love to short focal length, this is actually a Riccardi-Honders, F/3 system, which prides itself on a very wide (42 mm) fully illuminated and corrected field, small spot size (8 microns @26 mm from axis) and solid mechanics. My colleague Tal Faibish and I grew fond of its very small dimensions (235 mm length, 285 mm physical diameter; 8.4 kg) which makes it rather portable.

The system requires strict orthogonality between the chip surface and imaging train, and for that the whole focuser system is fit on a plate which can be adjusted through 4 screws, on the 4 corners corresponding to the 4 corners of the image (and chip).

I copied some more info to my site:
http://www.pbase.com/boren/officina_stellare_riccardihonders_veloce_rh_200

On the first night out, however, we didn't figures out correctly how the SBIG ST 8300 chip is located in the camera (mistakenly assuming it is 90 degrees to how it actually is built). This caused us to spend some 6 hours desperately trying to get the thing to work. Well... Once we figured it out, at about 2 AM, it took us less than 10 min. to get the system to generate images which were of decent quality. We left the better fine tuning of the system to next time.

Our target for the night, the Rosette, was already quite low on the horizon, so all we could do was squeeze in 1 hour of Ha, which is hereby presented to you...

http://www.pbase.com/image/147972462

Hope you like it!

Cheers and Happy Holidays!
Harel


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Jim Thommes
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Reged: 09/20/04

Loc: San DiegoCA USA
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5587148 - 12/24/12 12:27 PM

Harel,
Congrats on the first light and on overcoming your initial difficulties.

Yes I image an f/3 system would require good orthogonality - particularly so to take advantage of the quality optics.

The image came out superb.


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pfile
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/14/09

Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Jim Thommes]
      #5587155 - 12/24/12 12:31 PM

this is really funny - i was just looking at this OTA on OS's website, then on a reseller website, and then i pop over here to find this post at the top!

i happen to have the same CCD camera... why is the orientation of the CCD important? is it just because you were trying to make it all orthogonal expecting the camera to be in the other orientation?

otherwise it sounds like you can not rotate the CCD.


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David Rosenthal
Imager Extraordinaire
*****

Reged: 06/23/06

Loc: NJ
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: pfile]
      #5587371 - 12/24/12 03:09 PM

Congratulations on your first light image. It is really good despite the lost imaging hours. Can't wait to see what you are going to do with it !

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David PavlichAdministrator
Transmographied
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Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: David Rosenthal]
      #5587512 - 12/24/12 04:53 PM

That's very nice work, Harel!

David


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rigel123
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/29/09

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5587530 - 12/24/12 05:08 PM

Very nice Harel, congrats on getting everything working!

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alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: rigel123]
      #5587547 - 12/24/12 05:24 PM

Quote:

The system requires strict orthogonality between the chip surface and imaging train,
and for that the whole focuser system is fit on a plate which can be adjusted through 4 screws,
on the 4 corners corresponding to the 4 corners of the image (and chip).




Nice image Harel.
Do you have any photos of your above setup?
Was this an add on which was not supplied with the telescope?
You'll do well with this new high tech RH200.


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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: alpal]
      #5587816 - 12/24/12 10:14 PM

Beautiful detail! Nice Scope

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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: alpal]
      #5588071 - 12/25/12 03:56 AM Attachment (67 downloads)

Quote:

Quote:

The system requires strict orthogonality between the chip surface and imaging train,
and for that the whole focuser system is fit on a plate which can be adjusted through 4 screws,
on the 4 corners corresponding to the 4 corners of the image (and chip).




Nice image Harel.
Do you have any photos of your above setup?
Was this an add on which was not supplied with the telescope?
You'll do well with this new high tech RH200.




Thanks alpal :-)

Here's a capture directly from the user manual, which explains the subject, along with an image which shows where the bolts are, etc.

Cheers,
Harel


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alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5588146 - 12/25/12 07:01 AM

Thanks Harel.
That's good - a fully adjustable system as is.
cheers
Allan


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mdek
member


Reged: 08/31/08

Loc: Netherlands
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: alpal]
      #5588763 - 12/25/12 06:23 PM

Amazing shot, and a beautiful scope indeed! I can imagine orthogonality is crucial in a f3 system! I had trouble enough getting my gso 8" rc focusser/primary ortho enough for f6!

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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Jim Thommes]
      #5589731 - 12/26/12 01:12 PM

Thanks Jim!
Happy you liked the image.
It actually took quite shorter time than we expected, once we understood the grave misperception we had regarding the position of the chip in the camera
Cheers,
Harel


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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: pfile]
      #5589737 - 12/26/12 01:17 PM

Quote:

this is really funny - i was just looking at this OTA on OS's website, then on a reseller website, and then i pop over here to find this post at the top!

i happen to have the same CCD camera... why is the orientation of the CCD important? is it just because you were trying to make it all orthogonal expecting the camera to be in the other orientation?

otherwise it sounds like you can not rotate the CCD.




Hi - its not the orientation of the chip is in itself important. You can position it however you like. However, you must know how its physical orientation in the camera, relates to the image that comes out on your PC. I.e. - if the stars aren't perfect on the right hand top side of the image on the PC, you ought to know how that particular corner relates to the actual physical side of the camera, so that you can change it.

Now, if you have this relationship wrong (as we have: thinking that top right relates to top top right, whereas it actually related to bottom right) then your adjustments RUIN the orthogonality, rather than refine it.

Once we got it right, the issue was resolves in less than 10 min. There's still some refinement to do, but as you can see in the image - most of the work is behind us.

Cheers,
Harel


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bilgebayModerator
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Reged: 11/06/08

Loc: Türkiye - Istanbul and Marmar...
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5589781 - 12/26/12 01:47 PM

Hi Harel,

Very nice image and very nice setup as I have already said in the Cats forum.

I can understand your frustration until you figured out the correct way to square the camera to the optical plane. I have taken note of this issue. Thank you for sharing your joys and frustrations as well

Sedat


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Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5590093 - 12/26/12 06:21 PM Attachment (37 downloads)

Hi Harel

Here is a 8min exposure in NII with a Bahtinov Mask. 1.3MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2012_12/RH200-B.jpg

As you can see all the stars with visible diffraction patterns show perfect focus. This can only mean one thing. The PL16803 sensor is almost perfectly orthogonal to the optic axis of the RH200.

I can pick up a 100 step difference of the FLI Atlas focuser in the diffraction patterns. This corresponds to 8.5 micron along the optic axis. This means that my camera sensor is aligned better than 10 micron from corner to corner.

I have a custom made frame to firmly hold the camera. With this I can make very small adjustments to align the sensor.

All imaging systems invert the image. It fools the best of us.

Bert

Astrograph is an Officina Stellare RH200 which has a focal length of 600mm and is F3, yes F3! Clear aperture is 200mm.
FLI Atlas Focuser.
FLI ten position filter wheel CFW-3-10 with 50mm square filters.
Astrodon E series LRGB and HA, NII, SII and OIII 3nm NB filters. Also a continuum filter 5nm.
Camera is a FLI PL16803 which has a sensor size 36.8 X 36.8 mm.
The FoV of this system is 3.5 X 3.5 degrees.
Mount is a Software Bisque PMX.



Edited by Bert (12/26/12 06:40 PM)


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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5590142 - 12/26/12 07:09 PM

Harel, can you compare resolution and contrast of RH200 vs let's say fast 130/780 mm refractor with 0.75x FF/FR which make it F/4.5 ?
Actually, I have not seen any high quality, long subs, preferably NB, finished picture with RH200. In fact, best images with RH200 I've seen so far are somewhat "soft" compared to top quality images with fast 5-5.5" refractor...
I'm buying astrograf next year and deciding between mentioned refractor and RH200.


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Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5590175 - 12/26/12 07:33 PM Attachment (28 downloads)

Hi Knez

The RH200 is fast at F3. This is 5X16 minutes in 3nm NII. This would take you with an F4.5 system 5x36 minutes. Or longer if you wanted to get the signal to noise ratio down to the same level as the shorter exposures the RH200 give you.

Large image here 5MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2012_12/M42_RH200_NII.jpg

By the way 3nm NB filters DO work very well even at F3. Especially the Astrodons.


Bert

Edited by Bert (12/26/12 08:01 PM)


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Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5590316 - 12/26/12 09:15 PM

Here you go again Knez a mosaic before I got the sensor alignment almost perfect. about 12Mb.

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2012_12/LMC_2P_RGB_F.jpg

Enough stars?

Bert


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pfile
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/14/09

Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5590557 - 12/26/12 11:58 PM

Quote:


Hi - its not the orientation of the chip is in itself important. You can position it however you like. However, you must know how its physical orientation in the camera, relates to the image that comes out on your PC. I.e. - if the stars aren't perfect on the right hand top side of the image on the PC, you ought to know how that particular corner relates to the actual physical side of the camera, so that you can change it.

Now, if you have this relationship wrong (as we have: thinking that top right relates to top top right, whereas it actually related to bottom right) then your adjustments RUIN the orthogonality, rather than refine it.

Once we got it right, the issue was resolves in less than 10 min. There's still some refinement to do, but as you can see in the image - most of the work is behind us.

Cheers,
Harel




ah yes, okay, now i understand. at least on my telescope the image comes out upside-down. but i thought that was normal - the image is formed upside-down at the focal plane. the RH200 could be different though.

i did encounter this while collimating my RC10 - if you are using the defocused star method it's important to re-orient the image so that up is up!


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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5591575 - 12/27/12 06:21 PM

Quote:

Here you go again Knez a mosaic before I got the sensor alignment almost perfect. about 12Mb.

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2012_12/LMC_2P_RGB_F.jpg

Enough stars?

Bert [/quote

Hi Bert,

Thanks for sharing - I wasn't aware of this image of yours!
It's a lovely gem - I like it very much!

Cheers,
Harel

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microstar
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/05/08

Loc: Canada
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5592042 - 12/28/12 12:43 AM

Took a while to download but a pretty amazing image Bert.
...Keith


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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5592766 - 12/28/12 02:17 PM

Quote:

Hi Knez

The RH200 is fast at F3. This is 5X16 minutes in 3nm NII. This would take you with an F4.5 system 5x36 minutes. Or longer if you wanted to get the signal to noise ratio down to the same level as the shorter exposures the RH200 give you.

Large image here 5MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2012_12/M42_RH200_NII.jpg

By the way 3nm NB filters DO work very well even at F3. Especially the Astrodons.


Bert




I can't agree more. I used to have a baader 7 nm on the same camera and there's literally no comparison to the crisp, full and noiseless results the Astrodon 5 nm is giving me. all on f2.8 or f3 systems.

Cheers
Harel


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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5593287 - 12/28/12 08:23 PM

Quote:

Hi Harel

Here is a 8min exposure in NII with a Bahtinov Mask. 1.3MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2012_12/RH200-B.jpg

As you can see all the stars with visible diffraction patterns show perfect focus. This can only mean one thing. The PL16803 sensor is almost perfectly orthogonal to the optic axis of the RH200.

I can pick up a 100 step difference of the FLI Atlas focuser in the diffraction patterns. This corresponds to 8.5 micron along the optic axis. This means that my camera sensor is aligned better than 10 micron from corner to corner.

I have a custom made frame to firmly hold the camera. With this I can make very small adjustments to align the sensor.

All imaging systems invert the image. It fools the best of us.

Bert

Astrograph is an Officina Stellare RH200 which has a focal length of 600mm and is F3, yes F3! Clear aperture is 200mm.
FLI Atlas Focuser.
FLI ten position filter wheel CFW-3-10 with 50mm square filters.
Astrodon E series LRGB and HA, NII, SII and OIII 3nm NB filters. Also a continuum filter 5nm.
Camera is a FLI PL16803 which has a sensor size 36.8 X 36.8 mm.
The FoV of this system is 3.5 X 3.5 degrees.
Mount is a Software Bisque PMX.






Hi Bert, is what we are seeing in the image the back of the os RH 200 rig?

Cheers,
Harel


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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5593829 - 12/29/12 06:12 AM

Bert, thanks for very nice image, but I have (as usual) few questions...
While center image (http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2012_12/M42_RH200_NII.jpg) is very nice, stars look good etc., border image starts to brake down, stars have unusual halos and much more noise is present. Is that because of vignetting, type of processing or some other reason?
The specs say "200mm clear aperture", what does it mean?
Since obstruction is 55% what is actual diameter of the tube?
How do you like the focuser for imaging? My accessories are around 4 kg...
Does it have to be collimated often, is the collimation complicated, how long does it take?
How fast does it cool down?
And finally, how does it cope with temperature change, does it have to be refocused often?

Hope you don't mind lots of questions, but 5800 Euros is not cheap, I have to be sure what I'm buying...

Thanks


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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5594853 - 12/29/12 06:30 PM

Hi Kemz,
The obstructin is 55% linear, I.e. .55 of the diameter.
This means that its about 30% area obstruction which is quite reasonable considering that you don't we'd flats (ie much more light all over the frame) and that reflectivity of the mirror is 99%.

Cheers,
Harel


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Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5595124 - 12/29/12 08:50 PM Attachment (31 downloads)

Officina Stellare quote a well corrected image circle of 42mm for the RH200. The diagonal of the PL16803 camera is 52mm so the corners can never be as good as the centre. This does not matter in practice if I view an image on my 30inch monitor at 100% the image is 1x1 metres. The pixel pitch of the monitor is 0.25mm.
I want to make mosaics of very dim objects so speed is more important than perfect stars. If I wanted perfect stars I would get a RC scope at F10 and wait forever to record some dim nebulosity.

Here is two panels of the Vela SN remnant with some Gum nebulae in 3nm NII. FoV 6.0 x 3.4 degrees. 10MB
http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2012_12/VSNR_P1+P2_NII.jpg
The vignetting in the RH200 is 80% at the edge of a 36.8mm square sensor and 63% in the corners. Below is a screen capture of a line profile of a 3nm NII flat.
The aperture is 200mm. The central obstruction is 105mm. The area of the RH200 aperture minus central obstruction is about three times the area of the central obstruction.
I have a FLI Atlas focuser. This is holding a ten position filter wheel and Pl16803 camera. This all weighs a bit over 8kg. This is why I had flexure problems as expected as I am overloading the RH200. The Atlas focuser is excellent.
I have six dew straps around the RH200 which are controlled by a PID controller. This keeps the whole optic train at a constant temperature plus or minus 0.1C. This has two effects focus does not change with ambient temperature and the optic train will never suffer from condensation. Where I live in Melbourne the temperature can drop overnight by more than twenty degrees C on a clear night.
I have not touched the factory collimation and optic train alignment as they were both close to perfect. They have not moved at all over winter to summer.
It all depends what you want to do what scope you should get.
You are always welcome to ask any questions.
Bert


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Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5595195 - 12/29/12 09:55 PM Attachment (49 downloads)

Here is a picture of the image train on the PMX.

Bert


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mikeschuster
super member


Reged: 08/25/11

Loc: SF Bay area
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5595336 - 12/29/12 11:39 PM

Quote:

I have six dew straps around the RH200 which are controlled by a PID controller. This keeps the whole optic train at a constant temperature plus or minus 0.1C.




Bert, this is an interesting idea, thanks for posting. I have an FSQ. Keeping it in good focus as the night cools is a serious issue with this tube. I use heaters for dew, but your idea of heating the whole thing is new to me.
Thanks,
Mike


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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5595369 - 12/30/12 12:06 AM

Quote:

The vignetting in the RH200 is 80% at the edge of a 36.8mm square sensor and 63% in the corners. Below is a screen capture of a line profile of a 3nm NII flat.



That screen capture is illegible.


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Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Alph]
      #5595379 - 12/30/12 12:17 AM Attachment (22 downloads)

Alph

Here is a larger version. 1k

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2012_12/Cap.jpg

Sorry its the small image size limit.

This flat is a stack of twenty corrected with a master dark.

Bert

Edited by Bert (12/30/12 12:19 AM)


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Bert
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/17/06

Loc: Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: mikeschuster]
      #5595396 - 12/30/12 12:31 AM Attachment (25 downloads)

I used to image with a Canon 5D and a Canon 300mm F2.8L and the only way to stabilise focus was to keep the whole lens at a constant temperature. The critical focus zone at these fast apertures is tiny.

This lens still looked like brand new after being in the observatory for six years!

Bert


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mmalik
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5597432 - 12/31/12 06:07 AM Attachment (14 downloads)

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The system requires strict orthogonality between the chip surface and imaging train,
and for that the whole focuser system is fit on a plate which can be adjusted through 4 screws,
on the 4 corners corresponding to the 4 corners of the image (and chip).




Nice image Harel.
Do you have any photos of your above setup?
Was this an add on which was not supplied with the telescope?
You'll do well with this new high tech RH200.




Thanks alpal :-)

Here's a capture directly from the user manual, which explains the subject, along with an image which shows where the bolts are, etc.

Cheers,
Harel







FYI: Hope you don't mind my mentioning, this is full of syntactical and spelling errors. Thx


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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: mmalik]
      #5597451 - 12/31/12 06:27 AM

They obviously should do some English editing, shouldn't they :-)))

But from what I see - the CNC is better than the English :-)

Cheers,
Harel


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alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5597459 - 12/31/12 06:58 AM

Hi Harel,
it's still perfectly understandable.

cheers
Allan


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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: alpal]
      #5597966 - 12/31/12 01:25 PM

Thanks Allan. You're right - it's understandable, but it does make sense to have this taken care of. The manual is not of the quality of the scope, and it's a shame.
Cheers,
Harel


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atalas
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 02/21/05

Loc: Sydney,Australia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5598687 - 12/31/12 08:13 PM

Congrats on the new scope Harel!and a great first light...all the best for 2013!

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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: atalas]
      #5599365 - 01/01/13 10:55 AM

Bert, thanks for very detailed explanation!
Looks like I have some tough decision to make...

Just one comment about "clear aperture". If aperture is 200mm and central obstruction 105mm then "real clear aperture" is around 170mm? Is this correct?
If this is correct, is there some way to compare this "real clear aperture" vs "real aperture" from refractor? Probably can't be directly compared because one is obstructioned aperture and other is real aperture?


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Bert
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5599450 - 01/01/13 11:57 AM

Knez
Yes that is correct the calculated equivalent unobstructed aperture of the RH200 is about 170mm. So a hypothetical refractor of 170mm aperture and 600mm focal length would be as fast the RH200? Not so!

The movie industry does not use the F stop of the lens. They measure the amount of light that actually gets to the film or sensor through the actual lens and correct for the loss of light by giving it a T stop value. The T stop is the F stop corrected for light losses produced by a lens. So different lenses with the same T stop deliver exactly the same amount of light at the sensor or film plane from the object being imaged. This is a must for continuity in perceived lighting from cut to cut.

You will not see any figures for light loss in refractors due to reflection and absorbance and scatter. It is considerable. Generally the more elements a refractor has the greater the light loss.

That being said the RH200 has a multi element rear corrector.

Even if a 170mm diameter 600mm focal length lens/refractor could be made it would have so much glass that you end up losing more than you gain.


It is the F stop of an optic that sets the diffraction limit for any optic and hence the theoretical resolution. It tells you nothing about actual transmission of the optic.
The only way in the real world is to test our optics by taking images and see what results we get. All the hypotheticals are just that.

The results I am getting with my new setup has not ceased to amaze me yet. Each time I image a new object I see very faint stuff in detail I have never seen before anywhere.
I am most probably very biased toward the RH200 but this is due to the results I am getting.

regards Bert

Edited by Bert (01/01/13 12:55 PM)


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orion69
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5599629 - 01/01/13 01:30 PM

Bert, did you try 30min subs with RH200?
It would be great to see result of let's say 3 hours of 30min subs with H-alpha filter. That would really show what RH200 is capable of and show me what sort of improvement can I expect over my present setup.

That leads me to another question: did you notice any flexure caused by possible mirror movement?


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Alph
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5599823 - 01/01/13 03:25 PM

Quote:

I am most probably very biased toward the RH200 but this is due to the results I am getting.



I think you are. The C11 with the Hyperstar is quite close to the RH200 in terms of focal length and focal ratio for a lot less money. I admit though the RH200 has a a bit of edge over the HS11. However the HS14 has longer focal length and in theory it can deliver images of higher resolution.


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psandelle
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Alph]
      #5600255 - 01/01/13 08:11 PM

Alf - except you can't even come close to using a 16803 chip in the 11" Hyperstar, which is why I got the 6" PowerNewt over a 6" Hyperstar: I want the widest field when I go wide-field, and image circle size and larger chips make best use of a wider field. I get a vastly wider-field image in my 6" PowerNewt than I could have gotten in a 6" Hyperstar, and the Veloce gets a much wider image than the 11" Hyperstar (and, theoretically, the new ASA F/2.8 astrograph should do the same).

Paul


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Bert
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5602036 - 01/02/13 10:03 PM Attachment (31 downloads)

The mirror in the RH200 does not move until you adjust it for collimation.

Flexure is always a problem with accurate optics. Many years ago I was told by my Physics instructor that there was no such thing as a rigid body, but to make calculations easier we will assume all bodies are rigid.

Here is a mosaic I did last night. Four panels 7x8 minutes each in 3nm NII. FoV 6x6 degrees. Full resolution. 16MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/CAR_MOS_NII_L.jpg


Who needs thirty minute subs? When you have a RH200!

For RGB anything over four minute subs will saturate your camera. With this system trying to raise signal to noise with luminance data is a retrograde step.

Bert

Edited by Bert (01/02/13 10:24 PM)


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psandelle
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5602092 - 01/02/13 10:44 PM

Beauty Bert! Quite stunning. Something to be said about quick subs....

Paul


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orion69
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: psandelle]
      #5602399 - 01/03/13 06:03 AM

Bert, something is wrong on your images.
Middle area, where signal is strong is OK, but most of the picture is too grainy. You either need more subs or more longer subs, or something is wrong with your processing.
And believe me, it really can be seen on 30" monitor...


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Harel_Boren
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5602931 - 01/03/13 12:42 PM Attachment (34 downloads)

Quote:

Bert, something is wrong on your images.
Middle area, where signal is strong is OK, but most of the picture is too grainy. You either need more subs or more longer subs, or something is wrong with your processing.
And believe me, it really can be seen on 30" monitor...




Hi Bert, I tend to agree.
Check this 5 min. frame - all I did here was calibrate bias and dark (NO FLAT) and Digital Development.
Cheers,
Harel


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Harel_Boren
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: atalas]
      #5603499 - 01/03/13 06:41 PM

Quote:

Congrats on the new scope Harel!and a great first light...all the best for 2013!




Thanks Louie,
Wishing you a great 21013 and many clear skied nights under news moons :-)
Cheers,
Harel


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Bert
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5603596 - 01/03/13 07:45 PM Attachment (19 downloads)

Knez and Harel I always process to show down to the noise. If there is no noise in your image you are throwing away signal.

Here is an animated gif from a crop of a stretched image to a tone mapped image with EasyHDR. 5MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/NII.gif

This is a crop from Kfir Simons image of the same area with EasyHDR tone mapping and original. Animated gif. 5MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/KSrgb.gif

Note how tone mapping allows you to enhance very dimstuff down to the noise without blowing out the very bright areas or stars.

This is an animated gif of the same area from my NII image and Kfir Simons. Both tone mapped.

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/NII_KSrgb.gif


You can judge for yourselves what is noise or signal in the very dim areas.

What the last animated gif also shows is that the RH200 can hold its own with an astrograph with 2.5 times the focal length and twice the aperture.

I am sure Kfir Simons image has far more fine detail than shown here due to jpg artefacts in the image of his I had to work with.

Here is his whole image tone mapped 6MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/rgKS__easyHDR_10.jpg

It would be even more stunning if I could use the 16 bit full resolution data.


Thanks for your input Harel no one of us has all the knowledge. I hope I have also helped rather than hindered.

Bert

Edited by Bert (01/03/13 09:15 PM)


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Bert
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5603748 - 01/03/13 09:49 PM

This is just a general prcis of my thoughts on noise.

The only measure we really have is signal to noise to compare any sort of measurement. When it comes to images we do have a problem. In the real world our limited senses do record lots of noise along with the signal. Our brains are quite adapted to work out which is which. This of course is purely subjective as anyone who has seen delusional people ignoring the obvious and conversely educated people ignoring the subtle signals that do not fit in with their model of the world.
Why is it then when a painting done in the ultra realist mode looks unnatural? Why does ultra real computer graphics also seem unnatural? In the real world there is noise in all of our sensory inputs and our brains response expects it so it can sort out the real signal.
The basic take home message is by all means maximise the signal to noise but do not eliminate the noise as then it makes the signal far less real or look manufactured.

Bert

Edited by Bert (01/03/13 09:51 PM)


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mikeschuster
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5603827 - 01/03/13 10:41 PM

Bert,
Would it be possible to post a link to a raw RH200 subframe, no processing? IMO the highly processed results make it hard to understand what the hardware is doing.
Thanks
Mike


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Bert
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: mikeschuster]
      #5604115 - 01/04/13 05:36 AM

Here you go Mike A single frame only corrected for darks and flats. 18MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/Ff_C_CRES_41200_-35C_-004NII...

I could put up a stack if you want it.

Bert


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Harel_Boren
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5604234 - 01/04/13 08:32 AM

Quote:

Knez and Harel I always process to show down to the noise. If there is no noise in your image you are throwing away signal.

Here is an animated gif from a crop of a stretched image to a tone mapped image with EasyHDR. 5MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/NII.gif

This is a crop from Kfir Simons image of the same area with EasyHDR tone mapping and original. Animated gif. 5MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/KSrgb.gif

Note how tone mapping allows you to enhance very dimstuff down to the noise without blowing out the very bright areas or stars.

This is an animated gif of the same area from my NII image and Kfir Simons. Both tone mapped.

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/NII_KSrgb.gif


You can judge for yourselves what is noise or signal in the very dim areas.

What the last animated gif also shows is that the RH200 can hold its own with an astrograph with 2.5 times the focal length and twice the aperture.

I am sure Kfir Simons image has far more fine detail than shown here due to jpg artefacts in the image of his I had to work with.

Here is his whole image tone mapped 6MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/rgKS__easyHDR_10.jpg

It would be even more stunning if I could use the 16 bit full resolution data.


Thanks for your input Harel no one of us has all the knowledge. I hope I have also helped rather than hindered.

Bert




Thanks Bert, and thanks for the work invested in making the comparison.

First, I think that since both images are processed, it is somewhat hard to make a judgment, but what is certainly clear is that the Veloce has given you very good data.

Secondly, I am not sure about how this compares with Kfir's image, as the former is so over-processed and over-saturated, that it would be harsh to say that the end result ought to be indicative of the original quality of the data.

In other words, I can see (from your image and my own raw data, posted above) that the Veloce delivers some very good data; but I can't say it's better than what the Dream Scope delivered, since the processing has completely ruined it. I would love to think the Veloce does better than another super-scope of 16", but given the circumstances, this conclusion is not substantiated by the available information.

A general note - I love images which are easy on the processing trigger. I thus am always attracted to see more of Steve Leshin's, Tom Davis's, Jim Thomas's, JPM's and many others. I think that the Veloce's quality of data (just as the Dream's) is simply superb. By any standard. With such data one can lay down the arms, and process easy. Hard and over-saturated will get a "wow" from the crowd, but doesn't move anything in my heart.

Finally, I love such deep discussions on the hobby. They really make my day :-)

Cheers,
Harel


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orion69
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5605307 - 01/04/13 06:02 PM

Quote:


I could put up a stack if you want it.





Could you, please, unprocessed stack?

Thanks


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mikeschuster
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5605514 - 01/04/13 08:22 PM

Thank you Bert, for me no need for a stack. How was seeing when you captured this one?
Mike


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Bert
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5605712 - 01/04/13 10:52 PM

Here Knez 14MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/RZ_P1.zip

7x8 min 3nm NII PL16803 at -35C

Seeing fair. I am only 16km from Melbourne. Fortunately there is a lot of parkland to my East and South.

Bert

Bert

Edited by Bert (01/04/13 11:01 PM)


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orion69
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5605974 - 01/05/13 03:12 AM

Thanks Bert!

I'll try to process it over weekend.


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Harel_Boren
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5606681 - 01/05/13 01:57 PM

Mmm... I can't wait to see that result Knez!
Cheers,
Harel


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Bert
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5607446 - 01/05/13 10:42 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

I was not going to tell you this Harel but the 'noise' is really faint stars blurred by very slight flexure. If it was real system noise you would see it in the very dark dusty areas.

I have just fixed this last little bit of flexure by bolting a stabilizing bar between the two dovetails of my side by side.

It seems the camera and CFW just put too much torsion on the image train dovetail due to gravity at slowly changing orientations with changing lateral forces that cause flexure.

The RH200 meanwhile is sitting very stable and not moving while the dovetail it is bolted to is twisting at its rear due to a too heavy image train.

I measured this flexure before and after and it is almost gone.

Here is a bigger image where you can see the dial indicator and the rest in better detail.

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/IMG.jpg

Tonights images will tell all!

Bert

Edited by Bert (01/05/13 11:54 PM)


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orion69
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5608331 - 01/06/13 01:03 PM

OK, here is processed Bert's image the way I usually process my H-Alpha images. To be frank I do not know much more than I knew before and main reason for that is that I never imaged this object before with my setup. So it's very hard for me to judge RH200 performance without direct comparison with my telescope.
But I will try to make some observation: at first glance I don't see much improvement in resolution (but I could be very wrong for reasons I mentioned before) over my setup. Secondly, I think there is some lack of contrast compared to refractor. Also, I still think that there should be more subs (probably 2x) which would help with contrast.
Camera pixels could explain lack of resolution, 9um, image scale 3.09 arcsec/pixel which is not optimal.
Final question is: is there enough reason to buy RH200 and shoot with Atik 383L+ mono or maybe Atik 460 mono?
Very hard decision but based on what I have seen so far I must say no.
But I could be (very) wrong.
Luckily, I have at least 6 months to decide...

Bert's processed image (cropped to 2560x1600, usual resolution for my pictures):



Edited by orion69 (01/06/13 01:07 PM)


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Gleason
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Alph]
      #5609047 - 01/06/13 07:05 PM

Several months ago I took delivery of the Officina Stellare RH200 F/3. I've not given up on the fabulous FSQ, as this is mostly more about my interest in very fast imaging systems going back to my long exposure Schmidt camera days. After a multitude of fine adjusments to collimation and tip tilt, I got this official first light last night before the latest storm.

http://imageshack.us/a/img577/4026/rh200horseheadbetatest.jpg


12 x 600s accumulated exposure time
6nm HA filter bandpass.
SBIG STL 11000
San Jose, California

This image was shot within San Jose city limits among about a million streetlights. The camera is a first gen STL 11000 and so is the 6nm AD Ha filter. Sky transparency was very hazy. Meaning, that much better contrast and detail are possbile from a dark site, and certanly a 3nm high transmission bandpass would isolate finer structures in the ionization curtain behind the Horsehead.

The telescope mechanics benefit greatly with the incorporation of a tip/tilt back plate, as f/3 is unforgiving of any array tilt. Let's just say a 10th of a turn of the tip/tilt screw will make a difference.

Cheers,

jg

Edited by Gleason (01/06/13 11:26 PM)


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orion69
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Gleason]
      #5609081 - 01/06/13 07:21 PM

Your link does not work.

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Gleason
journeyman


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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5609159 - 01/06/13 08:09 PM

Sorry about that. The hosting service has totally locked out the image url.

j


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Bert
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5609301 - 01/06/13 09:51 PM Attachment (39 downloads)

This is last nights test images.


LMC 3nm NII, 5x32 minutes exposure, PL16803 at -30C, all fits images are upsized before stacking by a factor of X1.5. 11MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/LMC_NII_M.jpg

NGC3576 and surrounds, 6x32 minutes. All other conditions same as LMC image. 10MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/NGC3576_M.jpg

Bolting down the tail of the dovetail worked!

Bert

Edited by Bert (01/06/13 09:57 PM)


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Bert
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5609307 - 01/06/13 09:56 PM Attachment (48 downloads)

NGC3576

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orion69
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5609669 - 01/07/13 06:22 AM

If "real clear" aperture is around 170mm does that mean that system is really F/3.52, not F/3?

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Harel_Boren
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5611227 - 01/08/13 12:12 AM

No Kenz,
F isn't defined by real clear etc.
You can read more about the implication of obstruction (also on contrast) here:
http://www.telescope-optics.net/obstruction.htm
Regarding definition accomplished - you can check out the "leaping puma" feature in the rosettte I've posted above (and in another post on this forum). That feature is 12 min. across and comes through very sharply (not through artificial sharpening) through what seems like making the best of the 1.85 pixel per arcsec that this system (the Veloce and the SBIG 8300M) can produce.
Cheers,
Harel


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mikeschuster
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5611251 - 01/08/13 12:30 AM

Kenz,
One way to think about the aperture obstruction: The obstruction blocks photons, so photons per pixel per unit time goes down. To compensate expose longer by the obstruction factor, and you will end up capturing the same number of photons and hence get the same SNR as an unobstructed equivalent. OR you can buy a camera with a higher QE by the same factor and accomplish the equivalent. So obstruction does impact the "speed" of the optic. The RH200 is in fact slower than an unobstructed f3 setup with the same aperture.
Mike

Edited by mikeschuster (01/08/13 12:34 AM)


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Harel_Boren
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: mikeschuster]
      #5611794 - 01/08/13 11:39 AM

Quote:

Kenz,
One way to think about the aperture obstruction: The obstruction blocks photons, so photons per pixel per unit time goes down. To compensate expose longer by the obstruction factor, and you will end up capturing the same number of photons and hence get the same SNR as an unobstructed equivalent. OR you can buy a camera with a higher QE by the same factor and accomplish the equivalent. So obstruction does impact the "speed" of the optic. The RH200 is in fact slower than an unobstructed f3 setup with the same aperture.
Mike




... But it's faster than any obstructed aperture of a longer f ratio, eg f4...
Cheers,
Harel


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Bert
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5612184 - 01/08/13 03:34 PM

Knez I prefer to think that the RH200 has a central obstruction the size of an FSQ106 with nearly three times the area (x2.63) in the annulus of the RH200 of a single FSQ106 collecting photons to my sensor.

If a 'FSQ170' was possible I would get one.

This three hour image 10MB from above

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.com.au/2013_01/NGC3576_M.jpg

would have taken close to eight hours with an FSQ106. Longer to get to the same signal to noise ratio.

My main aim is to make mosaics of very dim objects and it is very useful to get more than one panel per imaging night.

The other consideration is that a full image data set can be collected while the object is effectively at or close to the zenith. With the PMX mount able to go two hours past the zenith without doing a meridian flip and the speed of the RH200 very deep data can be collected in one night, all within two hours of the zenith.

Bert

Edited by Bert (01/08/13 03:48 PM)


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Harel_Boren
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Bert]
      #5613072 - 01/09/13 01:55 AM

Hi Bert,

Why would you decide to purposefully lose resolution by going down from the Veloce's D=200mm (or the Powernewt's D-200mm) to the (imaginary) FSQ170 D=170mm?

A scope is not only its ability to serve as a light-bucket. It comprises a set of attributes which delivers a result.

Cheers,
Harel


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orion69
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Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Gleason]
      #5613766 - 01/09/13 01:48 PM

Quote:

Several months ago I took delivery of the Officina Stellare RH200 F/3. I've not given up on the fabulous FSQ, as this is mostly more about my interest in very fast imaging systems going back to my long exposure Schmidt camera days. After a multitude of fine adjusments to collimation and tip tilt, I got this official first light last night before the latest storm.

http://imageshack.us/a/img577/4026/rh200horseheadbetatest.jpg


12 x 600s accumulated exposure time
6nm HA filter bandpass.
SBIG STL 11000
San Jose, California

This image was shot within San Jose city limits among about a million streetlights. The camera is a first gen STL 11000 and so is the 6nm AD Ha filter. Sky transparency was very hazy. Meaning, that much better contrast and detail are possbile from a dark site, and certanly a 3nm high transmission bandpass would isolate finer structures in the ionization curtain behind the Horsehead.

The telescope mechanics benefit greatly with the incorporation of a tip/tilt back plate, as f/3 is unforgiving of any array tilt. Let's just say a 10th of a turn of the tip/tilt screw will make a difference.

Cheers,

jg




Gleason, I just managed to download image and I must say I'm very impressed! You say this was shot under light of many streetlights? Do you plan to shoot some more images in near future, possibly some dimmer objects?

Well, your image certainly shows RH200 in completely different light...
I compared your image with another of the same object, nearly same total time, but shot with NP127is and although other image is excellent, your is in every aspect much better!

I'll show your picture on croatian forum to discuss it, if it's alright with you.


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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5618465 - 01/12/13 05:09 AM

Bert and Harel, I just noticed, is there a reason why you don't use OAG?

Edited by orion69 (01/12/13 05:22 AM)


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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5623105 - 01/14/13 05:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Several months ago I took delivery of the Officina Stellare RH200 F/3. I've not given up on the fabulous FSQ, as this is mostly more about my interest in very fast imaging systems going back to my long exposure Schmidt camera days. After a multitude of fine adjusments to collimation and tip tilt, I got this official first light last night before the latest storm.

http://imageshack.us/a/img577/4026/rh200horseheadbetatest.jpg


12 x 600s accumulated exposure time
6nm HA filter bandpass.
SBIG STL 11000
San Jose, California

This image was shot within San Jose city limits among about a million streetlights. The camera is a first gen STL 11000 and so is the 6nm AD Ha filter. Sky transparency was very hazy. Meaning, that much better contrast and detail are possbile from a dark site, and certanly a 3nm high transmission bandpass would isolate finer structures in the ionization curtain behind the Horsehead.

The telescope mechanics benefit greatly with the incorporation of a tip/tilt back plate, as f/3 is unforgiving of any array tilt. Let's just say a 10th of a turn of the tip/tilt screw will make a difference.

Cheers,

jg




Gleason, I just managed to download image and I must say I'm very impressed! You say this was shot under light of many streetlights? Do you plan to shoot some more images in near future, possibly some dimmer objects?

Well, your image certainly shows RH200 in completely different light...
I compared your image with another of the same object, nearly same total time, but shot with NP127is and although other image is excellent, your is in every aspect much better!

I'll show your picture on croatian forum to discuss it, if it's alright with you.




I can't Agee more.
This is a very impressive result.

Cheers,
harel


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Gleason
journeyman


Reged: 01/03/13

Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5628500 - 01/17/13 05:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Several months ago I took delivery of the Officina Stellare RH200 F/3. I've not given up on the fabulous FSQ, as this is mostly more about my interest in very fast imaging systems going back to my long exposure Schmidt camera days. After a multitude of fine adjusments to collimation and tip tilt, I got this official first light last night before the latest storm.

http://imageshack.us/a/img577/4026/rh200horseheadbetatest.jpg


12 x 600s accumulated exposure time
6nm HA filter bandpass.
SBIG STL 11000
San Jose, California

This image was shot within San Jose city limits among about a million streetlights. The camera is a first gen STL 11000 and so is the 6nm AD Ha filter. Sky transparency was very hazy. Meaning, that much better contrast and detail are possbile from a dark site, and certanly a 3nm high transmission bandpass would isolate finer structures in the ionization curtain behind the Horsehead.

The telescope mechanics benefit greatly with the incorporation of a tip/tilt back plate, as f/3 is unforgiving of any array tilt. Let's just say a 10th of a turn of the tip/tilt screw will make a difference.

Cheers,

jg




Gleason, I just managed to download image and I must say I'm very impressed! You say this was shot under light of many streetlights? Do you plan to shoot some more images in near future, possibly some dimmer objects?

Well, your image certainly shows RH200 in completely different light...
I compared your image with another of the same object, nearly same total time, but shot with NP127is and although other image is excellent, your is in every aspect much better!

I'll show your picture on croatian forum to discuss it, if it's alright with you.




I can't Agee more.
This is a very impressive result.

Cheers,
harel





Hey Gents,

I've been out of pocket a bit, and in fact could not easily find my way back to this page.

Another Look at RH-200 Results

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've added a considerable amount of data to the RH-200 view of the Horsehead. This is a 100% resolution crop from the STL1100, representing about 1/4 of of the entire field - I like this composition but also good to show full res capability of this little instrument at 9um pixels.

Data:
Officina Stellare RH200 f/3 Riccardi-Honders
SBIG STL11000
6nm Ha filter
35 x 600s total exposure time.
Non linear curves and levels only in PS
Star Spike sofware was used on the higher res image.
Location: San Jose, California

Comments:

Future narrowband work can benefit from longer exposures. 20 minute subs from a rural location would be quite spectacular for signal gathering. I really need more urban light pollution blocking. 3nm might be best here but I worry about bandwidth shift at f/3. I am using a first gen AstroDon 6nm filter in the old STL camera for now.

I am finding this instrument to be quite stable with temp changes. So far, it has been a set and forget instrument during image runs.

No differential flexure in a test 40 minute sub from the city using the STI guider and Officina Stellare tube rings.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6813/rh200horseheadnewcroppe.jpg

And here is a 50% resolution of the entire field. Curves adjusted a bit to show the extent of the nebulae

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/8884/rh200horseheadnew50perc.jpg

Feel free to do whatever you want with these. The potential of the RH200 is there with many short exposures from the city.


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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Gleason]
      #5628646 - 01/17/13 06:41 PM

Gleason, thanks for new images, looks like I found my next astrograph...

Just wondering what would be results with Atik 460 mono, camera I intent to use with RH200, couldn't find that combination on the net.

You say you focus one time and it's good all night? If that's the case there is no reason to buy focuser motor.

Please when you shoot some dimmer objects feel free to let us know.


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Gleason
journeyman


Reged: 01/03/13

Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5629087 - 01/17/13 11:06 PM

Quote:

Gleason, thanks for new images, looks like I found my next astrograph...

Just wondering what would be results with Atik 460 mono, camera I intent to use with RH200, couldn't find that combination on the net.

You say you focus one time and it's good all night? If that's the case there is no reason to buy focuser motor.

Please when you shoot some dimmer objects feel free to let us know.




I would get the focus motor which allows precision adjustments that are not possible by hand. Within a few degrees the scope has been stable. I would also go for the accessory tube rings instead of the single arm dovetail support bar. I'll look to some very faint Ha objects with this scope in the near future.

Here is a 24 x 600s Rosetta taken with the same camera on the RH200

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5781/rh200rosetta.jpg


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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Gleason]
      #5629277 - 01/18/13 02:29 AM

Gleason,do you use OAG?

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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5629322 - 01/18/13 03:45 AM

I just checked, focuser motor with all adapters is 750 Euro.
Maybe I'll just buy full configuration after all.


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Gleason
journeyman


Reged: 01/03/13

Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5629834 - 01/18/13 12:07 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

No OAG. Standard arrangement is the STI guider and lens assembly mounted to the top plate. There may not be enough back focus for an OAG with this instrument

Edited by Gleason (01/18/13 12:08 PM)


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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Gleason]
      #5630191 - 01/18/13 04:13 PM

If I can't use OAG then there is no way I would buy this instrument.
Luckily, TS Germany says backfocus is 70mm so plenty of space for OAG, filter wheel and camera...

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p4615_Officina-Stel...


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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5630533 - 01/18/13 08:20 PM Attachment (8 downloads)

Quote:

If I can't use OAG then there is no way I would buy this instrument.
Luckily, TS Germany says backfocus is 70mm so plenty of space for OAG, filter wheel and camera...

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p4615_Officina-Stel...




In fact, there's hardly any space to fit in OAG after the full imaging train is in place. We tried to use the TS OAG with it, and there was simply no place (which I could find) to fit in the guide camera (though the OAG took excatly the optimal space).

However, why is OAG so important? We have easily gotten to 10 min. guided frames with this instrument, using a setup which was built in 45 min. out in the desert, on a NEQ6... Actually I am sorry not to have gone up to 15 min. frames, as there was nothing really limiting me. Guiding was perfect.

You can view some images of that setup here:
http://www.pbase.com/boren/image/148323004/large
and here:
http://www.pbase.com/boren/image/148323006
and a non-processed stack of 22 images of 10 min. each here (no processing except for DDP):
http://www.pbase.com/boren/image/148357999/original

I will post a full report on that 2nd light tomorrow. Just to let you know that the scope sustained a 14 degrees centigrade drop with no change in focus (i.e. 2 micron accuracy of CFZ achieved and maintained, through a 14 degrees drop).

Cheers,
Harel


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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #5630602 - 01/18/13 09:16 PM

Quote:



In fact, there's hardly any space to fit in OAG after the full imaging train is in place. We tried to use the TS OAG with it, and there was simply no place (which I could find) to fit in the guide camera (though the OAG took excatly the optimal space).





How is that possible if backfocus is 70 mm?
With my current reducer I have to maintain 55mm distance with OAG+filter wheel+camera and I have no problem with that.
I use TSOAG9 with Lodestar and guiding camera is not in the way. Can you post picture of your image train?

I had bad experiences with guiding through another scope and I will never do that again.


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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5630617 - 01/18/13 09:28 PM

Just saw your setup, was RH200 in focus on those pictures?
I'll upload my setup tomorrow to compare...

Btw, your guiding was indeed perfect, and ability to maintain focus with large temperature drop is fantastic!

How precise is manual focusing (without motor) with bahtinov mask? Is there difference to motor focusing?


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Gleason
journeyman


Reged: 01/03/13

Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5630810 - 01/18/13 11:30 PM

Quote:

Just saw your setup, was RH200 in focus on those pictures?
I'll upload my setup tomorrow to compare...

Btw, your guiding was indeed perfect, and ability to maintain focus with large temperature drop is fantastic!

How precise is manual focusing (without motor) with bahtinov mask? Is there difference to motor focusing?




Yes, the telescope was at focus in the photo. Distance between the flat field corrector lens and array is important. OS will provide the necessary camera adapter.
Motor focus provides a more precise method to achieving focus in very shallow depth of field at f/3.
I have never used a bahtinov mask.
OS is now offering special pricing on the RH200.


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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: orion69]
      #5631032 - 01/19/13 04:24 AM

Quote:

Just saw your setup, was RH200 in focus on those pictures?
I'll upload my setup tomorrow to compare...

Btw, your guiding was indeed perfect, and ability to maintain focus with large temperature drop is fantastic!

How precise is manual focusing (without motor) with bahtinov mask? Is there difference to motor focusing?




Thanks Knez,

We use a pre-prepared Bhatinov Mask, which we've prepared to spec (focal length, etc.) and had laser cut from fiberglass.

We tried focusing without a motor focus, using the Bhatinov mask, and we find it near impossible to reach the required +/- 20 micron zone, which is the calculated Critical Focus Zone (CFZ) for this short focal length telescope.

With the motorfocus is was a walk in the park - took me about 60 seconds to reach perfect focus (+2.6 mircon).

Let's move this discussion to the 2nd Light post on this page, since it has much more measured data to rely on.

Cheers,
Harel


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rimassimo
Vendor (OfficinaStellare)


Reged: 04/17/09

Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Gleason]
      #5660508 - 02/03/13 06:15 PM

Hi John, Harel and All,

I'm Massimo Riccardi.
It's a real pleasure to see on the net a lot of beautiful images taken with my Veloce RH200.My compliments for your works.
I spent several years of my life for developing the Riccardi-Honders scheme so I'm very gratified to see fine images and satisfied users.
I just finished to design another Riccardi-Honders system slightly different from the Veloce RH200.
It is a 250 mm diameter with a longer focal lenght ,1400mm
operating at f/5.6 and with long backfocus (about 280 mm).
The performances are very high: diffraction limited from the center to the edge of a 60 mm diameter flat field.
So ,for those interested to longer focal lenght and high.performances , this new Officina Stellare "baby" will be available soon.

Regards.

Massimo Riccardi


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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: rimassimo]
      #5661524 - 02/04/13 11:00 AM

Quote:

Hi John, Harel and All,

I'm Massimo Riccardi.
It's a real pleasure to see on the net a lot of beautiful images taken with my Veloce RH200.My compliments for your works.
I spent several years of my life for developing the Riccardi-Honders scheme so I'm very gratified to see fine images and satisfied users.
I just finished to design another Riccardi-Honders system slightly different from the Veloce RH200.
It is a 250 mm diameter with a longer focal lenght ,1400mm
operating at f/5.6 and with long backfocus (about 280 mm).
The performances are very high: diffraction limited from the center to the edge of a 60 mm diameter flat field.
So ,for those interested to longer focal lenght and high.performances , this new Officina Stellare "baby" will be available soon.

Regards.

Massimo Riccardi




Thanks Massimo,

First thanks for these kind words!
Secondly, it's very good to know you are working on another masterpiece... Please do let us know where does development stand, and when the product is indeed due on the market.
My many thanks again,
All the best,
Harel


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JJK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/28/08

Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: rimassimo]
      #6311710 - 01/14/14 07:18 AM

Quote:

Hi John, Harel and All,

I'm Massimo Riccardi.
It's a real pleasure to see on the net a lot of beautiful images taken with my Veloce RH200.My compliments for your works.
I spent several years of my life for developing the Riccardi-Honders scheme so I'm very gratified to see fine images and satisfied users.
I just finished to design another Riccardi-Honders system slightly different from the Veloce RH200.
It is a 250 mm diameter with a longer focal lenght ,1400mm
operating at f/5.6 and with long backfocus (about 280 mm).
The performances are very high: diffraction limited from the center to the edge of a 60 mm diameter flat field.
So ,for those interested to longer focal lenght and high.performances , this new Officina Stellare "baby" will be available soon.

Regards.

Massimo Riccardi




Hi Massimo,

Is there an estimated price for the RH250, and will it have the same style OTA body as the RH200?

Best,
John


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rimassimo
Vendor (OfficinaStellare)


Reged: 04/17/09

Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: JJK]
      #6324395 - 01/20/14 03:22 PM

Hi John,

Yes, it's ready and it looks like the veloce RH200.
You can contact Officina Stellare for further information.

Massimo Riccardi


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Harel_Boren
Vendor-The Boren-Simon PowerNewt Astrograph


Reged: 03/15/09

Loc: Israel
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: rimassimo]
      #6330035 - 01/23/14 08:09 AM

Quote:

Hi John,

Yes, it's ready and it looks like the veloce RH200.
You can contact Officina Stellare for further information.

Massimo Riccardi




... And I saw it live yesterday...
I will stop here, as describing this beauty is more than my heart can take :-)
Cheers,
Harel


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AlanP
super member
*****

Reged: 10/29/07

Loc: Howell, MI
Re: Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light new [Re: Harel_Boren]
      #6341651 - 01/28/14 06:58 PM

I am adding this information to this older thread, as hopefully it will help someone out there. I approached my Rhonders in a bit of a different direction. My skies aren't great. I paired the Honders with Apogee Alta U8300 with a Vixen DED 108S f5 Refractor with FLI ML-8300C.

With the standard Microfocuser, backfocus on the RHonders will allow for a TS Optics 9mm OAG and a Starizona Filter Drawer. This will allow me to NB on the RHoders or to run Luminance. The Vixen will do the OSC duty though a Orion Steadystar AO to eliminate flexure.

On a given night, one without Moon present, I can simultaneously capture Luminance and RGB [OSC] data. I have to manually load the NB Filter, a small task for me. But then i can skip the weight, cost and complications of a Filter Wheel.

Additionally, I have added a set of inner contact PVC tubes and an upper and lower cross strut system between the RHonders and a 10" RC. This system has really limited movement in both the RHonders and the 10" RC. Low tech, but it works very well. Images of the Equipment can be seen on my website, www.mystarrynight[dot]info . Note that as the Vixen is the latest addition, fewer images are posted for this Scope. The endless parade of clouds here has the Home Dome Project on indefinite hold....

The 8 foot ExploraDome is at the house. A SkyShed POD was installed at my Cottage, lakefront on Lake Michigan, last summer. The Pod will have a RHonders for Luminance and NB using a QSI 540wsg. A focal reduced AT6RC with Sbig ST-4000XCM + AO-8 will collect the RGB [OSC] data. The Mount is an AP Mach1. Again I can run NB or simultaneous Luminance + OSC there. That Project comes together this Spring. This is a very dark site. M31 is visible to the naked eye. Satellites and Iridium flares are easy for guest to spot.

Again I post this to help any that might want other options or additional Equipment input. AlanP


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