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JWalk
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/06/10

Loc: San Antonio, TX
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6082753 - 09/15/13 08:23 PM

I really think PS gives you more control over what you want to do. I start with PI and finish in PS. Starting in PI seems nice. I do the heavy lifting in PI and decon. I know PS is expensive but it really works. Lightroom also has some amazing features to "finish" an image, especially with respect to color.

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pfile
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/14/09

Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6082763 - 09/15/13 08:25 PM

mike, that's just wrong.

the 'look inside' didn't seem so PS-centric. that's too bad. anyway i'm sure i'll still learn something reading it.. i hope


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RandallK
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/10/06

Loc: Nanaimo, B. C. Canada
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: pfile]
      #6082796 - 09/15/13 08:50 PM

I received mine after a lengthy wait. It was sent priority post by Amazon.ca and I got a decent letter of apology from Amazon.

The main reason I purchased Photoshop (CS 5, then 6) was because most tutorials, whether it be on YouTube or via publication are based on Photoshop. PaintShopPro and PixInSight can probably do all that the astro imager needs but the lack of tutorials is what hampers the use of these programs.

I have skimmed through the book in the "reading room" a few times and have deemed it to be a very handy companion in furthering my astro imaging processing.

A great thank you to Robert Gendler & Co. for the great work for a great hobby!


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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6082838 - 09/15/13 09:23 PM

Quote:

Still I think the description about the book should have been more accurate before purchasing the book. Anyway I was able to get a refund for the Kindle version. I guess I'll have to wait for another book that's more dedicated to PixInsight.

Peter




Last year Wodaski said he was working on one, but the program is so powerful and complex I wouldn't expect it anytime soon. The program is also still evolving, so maybe you can't write a book yet? I do believe when the program is done, nothing will touch it.


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pfile
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/14/09

Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: vpcirc]
      #6082850 - 09/15/13 09:29 PM

i think the core paradigm of PI has not changed "that much" since v 1.6. the changes since then have been the addition of a bunch of new processes, lots of very useful 3rd party scripts, and of course the project save/restore feature which is IMO completely awesome. my sky conditions dictate multi-night projects and it's great to be able to come right back to exactly where i left off on one project or other.

so someone totally could write a book at this point.


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hytham
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 12/25/12

Loc: Canadian in the US
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: JWalk]
      #6084460 - 09/16/13 06:16 PM

Quote:

I really think PS gives you more control over what you want to do. I start with PI and finish in PS. Starting in PI seems nice. I do the heavy lifting in PI and decon. I know PS is expensive but it really works. Lightroom also has some amazing features to "finish" an image, especially with respect to color.




I echo these sentiments.

Only recently have I discovered that LightRoom and PS are an extremely amazing compliment to PI especially in colour enhancing and contrasting arenas.


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PGW Steve
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/03/06

Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: Alph]
      #6088149 - 09/18/13 02:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

you can imagine what that took alone but there is the editing of each chapter, getting the images correct, content laid out, and the list goes on and on.



I wish he did a better job editing chapter 1. The inclusion of f-ratio myth mumblings is inexcusable. This goes to show that one shouldn't take seriously books written by amateurs for amateurs.




And one should take seriously things written by you?? Whenever I see a post from you, I know it is going to be confrontational. I skimmed through the posts you made in the last year, and they are rife with conflict. Of all the posts you made in the last year, you started two threads. One was locked. The other you asked for help and a bunch of people replied and you didn't even offer up a thank you.


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pfile
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/14/09

Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: PGW Steve]
      #6088243 - 09/18/13 03:09 PM

there is a machine in alph's house that pees in his cornflakes EVERY MORNING. oh god make it stop

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hytham
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 12/25/12

Loc: Canadian in the US
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: pfile]
      #6088330 - 09/18/13 03:56 PM

I downloaded the book from Amazon and so far I have not learned anything new that I have not already seen available (in text or video) on the Internet. (Settle down. I'm not saying I'm a master by any means, I'm very clearly stating that I have seen the techniques described in this book online - nothing new or ground breaking).

What it does have going for it; centralized form factor.

Good read so far and I have (re)learned a great deal.

Thanks to all involved in the book.


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DNTash
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 09/02/07

Loc: GMT+2
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: Alph]
      #6089317 - 09/19/13 02:04 AM

Quote:


I wish he did a better job editing chapter 1. The inclusion of f-ratio myth mumblings is inexcusable. This goes to show that one shouldn't take seriously books written by amateurs for amateurs.




A vote for reading Chapter 1. Stating first that I am new to AP, not an expert by any means, as many here, at least not yet , and by no means a math-lete, I personally found Chapter 1 to be quite useful as the basis for understanding procedures described in later chapters. In Chapter 1, he explains concepts very well, even for the less experienced, and particularly for the stated purpose of the chapter. And, the math wasn't difficult to understand, given his examples. As for the short discussion of what he referred to as the f-ratio myth, which was new to me, I personally found it quite interesting and it made sense in the context of his discussion, a discussion that itself provides context for the rest of the book and makes it that much better of a read. Five stars.

Oh, and to the OP, thanks for the tip on the book!

Edited by DNTash (09/19/13 02:07 AM)


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Peter in Reno
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: DNTash]
      #6089331 - 09/19/13 02:46 AM

If you are a beginner, read this book, became a firm believer in Stan Moore's focal ratio myth and replaced your small aperture/short focal ratio scope with larger aperture/larger focal ratio scope, you will be very disappointed. Before you do that, please do a thorough research by reading professional papers and articles first. I don't believe Stan's focal ratio myth was ever checked or approved by the professionals.

Several years ago, I imaged NGC6946 two consecutive nights using C-8 at F/10 one night and F/6.3 focal reducer the other night. I compared F/10 and F/6.3 images (raw and unprocessed) by measuring the ADU of same unsaturated stars and found the ADUs in F/6.3 image more than double than at F/10 image. This is using same aperture size of 8" or 200mm. This proved that focal ratio matters, not aperture. This was taken with same CCD camera. The seeing conditions of both nights appeared to be identical.

I uploaded calibrated and un-processed subs using F/10 and F/6.3 in FIT format for comparison. They were taken with SXVR-M25C OSC camera and each sub was 10 minutes.

F/10:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qd3k8ttrmfeljry/NGC6946_F10.fit

F/6.3:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6esxwpl7mfno78c/NGC6946_F63.fit

Judge them for yourself. If you think my experiment is invalid, please explain why.

Some people may say that when you reduced the focal ratio with a focal reducer that you effectively increased the FOV thus you gathered more light which makes it "appear" to be faster light gathering because more photons are striking the same number of pixels on the chip, thus only the aperture really matters. Well, that's how focal ratio works!!!!

It looks like to me that focal ratio DOES matter.

Peter


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DNTash
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 09/02/07

Loc: GMT+2
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6089338 - 09/19/13 03:10 AM

Good info, and a valuable comment, Peter. I don't think your comment was directed to me specifically, as a beginning APer, but it is an important point. You won't be seeing me giving up my smaller, faster scopes for more AP aperture, and the chapter didn't suggest that to me. I read it as useful and interesting context to the wider discussion in the book. But, I do find the concepts of aperture and f-ratio, and the debate, interesting to try and understand -- as a newbie APer.

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Peter in Reno
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: DNTash]
      #6089343 - 09/19/13 03:20 AM

Hi DNTash,

My post was not necessarily directed to you but to everyone else as well.

You said it yourself by describing your scope as a "faster" scope by meaning your scope has short focal ratio. By "faster" means shorter exposure time regardless of aperture size.

Peter


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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: DNTash]
      #6089351 - 09/19/13 03:57 AM

Quote:

As for the short discussion of what he referred to as the f-ratio myth, which was new to me, I personally found it quite interesting and it made sense in the context of his discussion, a discussion that itself provides context for the rest of the book and makes



No book should fool anyone especially a beginner who buys a book to learn. I have never seen/read a single academic source that agreed with or even mentioned Mr Moore's f-ratio theory. If you can find one, please let me know.


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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: PGW Steve]
      #6089353 - 09/19/13 04:02 AM

Geez! You are obsessed. You should seek professional help.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

you can imagine what that took alone but there is the editing of each chapter, getting the images correct, content laid out, and the list goes on and on.



I wish he did a better job editing chapter 1. The inclusion of f-ratio myth mumblings is inexcusable. This goes to show that one shouldn't take seriously books written by amateurs for amateurs.




And one should take seriously things written by you?? Whenever I see a post from you, I know it is going to be confrontational. I skimmed through the posts you made in the last year, and they are rife with conflict. Of all the posts you made in the last year, you started two threads. One was locked. The other you asked for help and a bunch of people replied and you didn't even offer up a thank you.




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mmalik
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: Alph]
      #6089397 - 09/19/13 05:48 AM

Folks, let's stop picking on Alph or anyone else. I for one appreciate all point of views; open discussion after all, no need to suppress opinions.

Talking of masters, here... is something I wrote in light of what I learned from the masters of ImagesPlus and PixInsight in this... and this... thread, respectively. Regards


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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: mmalik]
      #6089416 - 09/19/13 06:31 AM

Aperture is king will always be king, no doubt focal ratio plays a role in your ability to image given skies, mount etc for the ease of taking images without getting into a tech discussion. This book has concepts well beyond a beginner. Peter, even you said you don't understand the processes in PS. This explains how to do them. You can certainly choose to avoid PS. This book is showing what procedures many of the top imagers are using to make their images look like they do. If that's what you want, then the book will help you. If you already know everything don't waste your money. This is a very difficult hobby to learn. This is a good resource. In talking about how much post processing is the key, I had a friend who sent me an image he shot a few years back yesterday. He had reworked the image from what he knows now compared to then. He was able to take the same data and went from an image that wasn't very good to an image that looked great using the same data. I'll use Warren Keller as a good example. I've had data I was ready to give up on. I couldn't get it to look right for anything. He could take the same data and make a great image. Why, he's a 100 times better than I in bringing out what's there because of his superior post processing skills.
This book highlights many of the post processing skills the top imagers use to make their images win APODS. Folks can sit in their chairs and criticize, but until they're producing APODS, it's all hot air to me.


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jgraham
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/02/04

Loc: Miami Valley Astronomical Soci...
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: vpcirc]
      #6089475 - 09/19/13 07:38 AM

Focal ratio aside...

I bought the Kindle edition and like hytham mentioned I don't see anything really new here, but it is nice to see so much pulled together into a single volume. It is a good read and a nice resource for ideas and things to try.

+1


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broca
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/26/10

Loc: Ocala, FL
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: jgraham]
      #6089506 - 09/19/13 08:15 AM

Kids have it good these days. Back in my day I had to do countless web searches, spending hours gobbling up bandwidth, to find topics discussed in this book. I lost my job, my kids do not know me and my wife left me...
I highly recommend this book, I enjoyed reading chapter one and brushing up on the technical aspect, but I'm not going to get hung up in the f-ratio section (after all this is the first of hopefully many editions). There are a thousand ways to skin this cat and I, for one, appreciate these well known astrophotographers offering up their chapters and how they go about their workflow. I would recommend this book to anyone who has already connected their camera to the scope and has a good foundation and is looking for that first (or subsequent) AH HA!! moment.
All good books are open to criticism and discussion.


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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: "Lessons from the Masters"...first impressions new [Re: broca]
      #6089537 - 09/19/13 08:47 AM

Oh no don't bring up cats, alf likes to eat them!

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