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Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6429953 - 03/26/14 10:06 AM

Thanks Allan, It definitely looks better. I was taking advise from Gendlers book "Lessons from the Masters" that said (and I forget which one of the guys said it) that he likes to get 1x1 color data as well as LUM. It was in a section about the debate of doing 2x2 data Vs 1x1 for color. I guess I'll give 2x2 a try.
That doesn't really explain what's going on here tough. You would think that whether 1x1 or 2x2 that the colors should be closer to true color than this (leaving luminance out of the picture) So I wonder why all the yellow instead of the blues and reds that I get? Without all the manipulation you done, did it still turn out wanting to be looking all yellow or mainly like a straight luminance to you?

Dan


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alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6429997 - 03/26/14 10:38 AM

Hi Dan,
the 2x2 binning increases the signal strength.
What I had to do was try & balance the colours better.
I tried combining as is but ended up with the same all yellow result.
I therefore stretched & adjusted the levels to give a boost to blue & some Green before combining the channels.

It was a bit of trial and error.
The background was adjusted with a mask & I had to use selected
colour to try & get rid of the magenta that resulted in the galaxy.
I actually played with all the selective colours & the neutral colours in selective colour.
In order to see what I was doing I boosted first with LAB colour.

The problem is that the colour pass band of the RGB filters is also affected by the efficiency
of the CCD at their respective pass bands.

You'd need to know all that technical information & do it
mathematically to end up with the right colours.
I just did it by sight.

It would help to have more colour signal to start off with
which is why I recommend 2x2 binning.


Another issue:
Also - the 4 FITS LRGB frames were not aligned & they wouldn't align in DSS until I changed them to TIFFS
& checked the Lum frame as a reference.

You need to make a master reference frame when stacking.

I have never had your above colour problem before.

I did sharpen at 2 pixels but used no noise reduction
so you can see a bit of noise at the edge of the galaxy.


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elbee
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/02/09

Loc: Arizona
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6430367 - 03/26/14 02:01 PM Attachment (7 downloads)

i think it is pretty nice data, dan. i use excalibrator for color ratios to apply in ccdstack. i used RGB weights of 1,0.85,0.96. i brought a Lum TIFF and combined RGB TIFF into photoshop. stretched with curves, applied some saturation and mild sharpening. there was a slight gradient i fixed with gradient xterminator. i did not apply any "color correction". i would be pleased to call this my own. i didn't see any instrument data in the FITS. did you collect the data with your AGO 17in?

Large version Aircrftr's Sunflower processed by elbee


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DeanS
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Reged: 07/12/05

Loc: Central Kentucky
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: elbee]
      #6430375 - 03/26/14 02:10 PM

Nice processing job Lee!

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dp297
sage


Reged: 12/14/10

Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: DeanS]
      #6430433 - 03/26/14 02:43 PM Attachment (6 downloads)

I think u have beautiful data here....very nice. U just need to find the right way to control the color and the detail.
Here's my bit too on Pixinsight

Edited by dp297 (03/26/14 02:55 PM)


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alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: dp297]
      #6430820 - 03/26/14 05:53 PM

You guys have done well.
I would need to re-process the data to get the most out of it.

I always find that each image is so different
that I must learn how to process it.


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Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6430930 - 03/26/14 06:49 PM

Hi Allan;
While I'm familiar with the benefits of 2x2 binning, I gave it a try and it worked ok a while back. But since then I've done everything bin 1 and it's worked out too. The basic problem I have is the color balance, which is obviously screwed up. You've done great with the data! Now, I'm trying to get away from photoshop as I was never very good at it from the beginning so I've immersed myself in PixInsight and I'm wanting to continue and improve on it. I've processed my M78 in Pixinsight and everything went very well and I didn't have any problems getting the color right. I'm thinking the AO-X anti-reflective coatings on the glass plate may have affected my color balance. I tried last night to do a G2V balance before getting more data on M63 but couldn't get CCDAP to select my RG&B filters in the G2V wizard. The old V2G measurement had Green at 1.0, Red at 1.25 and Blue at .95. That is the weights I used to combine the channels in CCDStack.


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Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: elbee]
      #6430946 - 03/26/14 06:55 PM

Hi Lee;

Your rendition looks pretty good! I'll go out tonight and try your combination ratio and see how it comes out for me.
And yeah, this was with the 17" scope.


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Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: dp297]
      #6430952 - 03/26/14 06:57 PM

DP297, Now that's what I'm looking for! Excellent rendition and with PixInsight. Can you list the processes you used and how you got the color the way you did?

Thanks, Dan


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Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6430963 - 03/26/14 07:02 PM

Thanks again to all you guys who gave advise. As I said before, I didn't usually have trouble like this until this particular project and it through me for a loop! The next clear night I have outside, I'll see what my G2V corrections tell me.

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alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6430977 - 03/26/14 07:09 PM

Quote:

Hi Allan;
While I'm familiar with the benefits of 2x2 binning, I gave it a try and it worked ok a while back. But since then I've done everything bin 1 and it's worked out too. The basic problem I have is the color balance, which is obviously screwed up. You've done great with the data! Now, I'm trying to get away from photoshop as I was never very good at it from the beginning so I've immersed myself in PixInsight and I'm wanting to continue and improve on it. I've processed my M78 in Pixinsight and everything went very well and I didn't have any problems getting the color right. I'm thinking the AO-X anti-reflective coatings on the glass plate may have affected my color balance. I tried last night to do a G2V balance before getting more data on M63 but couldn't get CCDAP to select my RG&B filters in the G2V wizard. The old V2G measurement had Green at 1.0, Red at 1.25 and Blue at .95. That is the weights I used to combine the channels in CCDStack.




Hi Dan,
your mathematical figures seem to agree with what I adjusted.

I don't know Pixinsight but I found valuable information
on using Photoshop from Louie's videos here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ5b6pFHBGe66vsuSaXb-0A

I know all of his videos off by heart & I also use Fitswork4.

I think the best imagers seem to know both PI & PS & use both.

I would be interested to see what you could do with another re-process.
I know I could do better with another try.

I don't see why you are against binning 2x2.
The Luminance frames should still give you the same resolution end result because they are at 1x1.
The colour info you had was way down on the left hand side of the curves graph
even when I stretched in FITS Liberator at X1/5 - high compression.

There is good read here on binning:
http://www.starrywonders.com/binning.html

To me - binning is a huge advantage of a dedicated CCD camera over a DSLR.
Binning capability is part of the reason you pay so much for a CCD mono camera - why not use it?

Edited by alpal (03/26/14 07:10 PM)


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Peter in Reno
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6433591 - 03/28/14 01:02 AM Attachment (4 downloads)

Thank you for uploading your data. Your data is excellent. It's a matter of balancing the colors. It's possible that you might have to a little more work balancing the colors with Baader filters (I assume your filters are Baader) than Astrodon filters. After RGB combine, the background was very blue. After PI's DBE, Background Neutralization and Color Calibration, M63 started to look more natural. PixInsight probably has the best color calibration software than any other software.

Here is my quick process of your excellent data.

Peter


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Peter in Reno
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Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6433598 - 03/28/14 01:14 AM Attachment (6 downloads)

Here is a cropped version.

Peter

EDIT: Rotated the image 90 degrees.

Edited by Peter in Reno (03/29/14 12:53 PM)


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alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6434876 - 03/28/14 06:05 PM

Everyone has a different perspective & it shows the data is quite good.
I'm still waiting for Dan's new version.


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Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6434993 - 03/28/14 07:12 PM

Here you go Lee. It's in the other thread where I said I was done with it.. LOL. I'll Put it here for convenience too. It's been thunderstorming here today, but is clearing of this evening so I might just be crazy enough to get some more data.. some of the best atmosphere I've had to image through has been just after a system passes through..



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alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6435029 - 03/28/14 07:38 PM

Nice job Dan - you see - the colour was there!

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Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6435145 - 03/28/14 08:51 PM

LOL, Lee, it wouldn't be the first time I couldn't find something that was right under my nose.

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alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6435476 - 03/29/14 01:31 AM Attachment (1 downloads)

I had another go & this is a cropped closeup.

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dp297
sage


Reged: 12/14/10

Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6435555 - 03/29/14 04:24 AM

Nice going alpal....
U need to apply a green color removal algorithm to remove the greenish hue


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alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: dp297]
      #6435683 - 03/29/14 08:22 AM Attachment (2 downloads)

Quote:

Nice going alpal....
U need to apply a green color removal algorithm to remove the greenish hue




You're right.
I ran HLVG over it.
Is this better?


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