Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page


Astrophotography and Sketching >> CCD Imaging & Processing

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (show all)
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63
      #6427499 - 03/24/14 10:33 PM

Well, between the moon, weather and equipment, so far I've managed to get 6 hours of LUM and 2hrs ea. of RGB. Now, for the life of me, I can't seem to get much color in the galaxy itself. the background, I believe, is a lot of IFN and the galaxy itself shows some nice tidal streams. That's what I THINK. The red at the bottom LH corner I believe is real. It's there in all my frames and doesn't seem to be artifact or gradient. Same goes for the subtle blues in the background elsewhere. I couldn't find a wide enough field of view in other pictures to verify this, but just wanted to see what you all think. My opinion is I just need more integration time of everything L&RGB. So what do you all think? Is the background actually IFN or is this just noise? I know the darker area in the upper RH side is there also in all frames, so likely it's real which suggests the IFN below it is also real.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6427557 - 03/24/14 11:01 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

Hi Dan,
there is colour there.
I hope you don't mind?
I checked for colour using LAB mode as per here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE2GS_87Ct8

I did however come out all yellow.

My result is here & I did use a mask for the background.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jim Thommes
Post Laureate
****

Reged: 09/20/04

Loc: San DiegoCA USA
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6427604 - 03/24/14 11:38 PM

Dan,
You don't describe how you processed the color. It would be useful to know. One thing I have realized is that high luminance signal level is the enemy of color. That may be why your background is more colorful than your galaxy. It would be nice to know your color calibration method (G2V factors, eXcalibrator, ??)

If you haven't already done so, you might try blending your luminance layer to RGB first at 1/2 level. In Photoshop that would be setting the input level at 255 and the output at 128. (Not the same as setting opacity at 50% for the layer). Flatten then mostly reverse the level (i.e. input at say 160, output 255). Those steps should bring out more color. If you want, you can saturate deeper in LAB color space. Then you can reapply the Luminance data as a luminosity layer.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6427608 - 03/24/14 11:40 PM

Hi Alpal;
No, I don't mind at all! I was able to get the same color while messing with it, but It just doesn't seem to be the "right" color.... You look at other images and you see a lot of them with much more blue in the arms. Maybe I just need more integration time in RGB? This is where I'd like to end up...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Jim Thommes]
      #6427615 - 03/24/14 11:48 PM

Hi Jim;

I've never really gotten deep into photoshop but I've been immersing myself in PixInsight and likeing it quite a bit. What I done was got my G2V balance from the tool in CCDAutopilot and used that setting in CCDStack to make my LRGB. Converted the color image from CCDStack to a 16bit TIF file to use in PI. In PI, I've gotten used to all the functions covered by Harry's Astroshed tutorials, but just couldn't bring out the colors I wanted. Thinking along your same lines, I done just and RGB version and ended up with the same dull colors.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6427765 - 03/25/14 02:01 AM

Quote:

Hi Alpal;
No, I don't mind at all! I was able to get the same color while messing with it, but It just doesn't seem to be the "right" color.... You look at other images and you see a lot of them with much more blue in the arms. Maybe I just need more integration time in RGB? This is where I'd like to end up...





Hi Dan,
yes I know what you mean - it's all yellow.
It could be the way you've processed it.
What did the blue signal look like?
Did you bin the colours 2x2?

cheers
Allan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6428884 - 03/25/14 06:12 PM

I'll post up my R,G, and B calibrated/registered frames in a while when I get back out to the observatory. Funny thing is, I don't usually have trouble with color. Oh, and I bin all frames 1x1.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6428939 - 03/25/14 06:45 PM

Quote:

I'll post up my R,G, and B calibrated/registered frames in a while when I get back out to the observatory. Funny thing is, I don't usually have trouble with color. Oh, and I bin all frames 1x1.





OK - I now bin the colour 2x2 so I can get more signal.

This might be your problem.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6428948 - 03/25/14 06:48 PM

There should be more there. Hopefully I'll finish mine tonight. I think your issue may be gradient related, but I'm no expert. Here's mine from last year shooting with a refractor.

M 63


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: vpcirc]
      #6429116 - 03/25/14 08:32 PM

OK.. Here is my calibrated/registered RED which is 8X900 Bin 1



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6429119 - 03/25/14 08:34 PM

Here is the Green channel. All channels are same number and duration.



Edited by Aircrftr (03/25/14 08:35 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6429122 - 03/25/14 08:36 PM

Here is the blue channel.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
elbee
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/02/09

Loc: Arizona
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6429135 - 03/25/14 08:40 PM

can you zip those raw RGB Master FITs files and put them in a cloud drive to share. the data looks nice!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6429140 - 03/25/14 08:43 PM

Here are all three channels put together in CCDStack (No luminance) and untouched from there.(accept conversion to the JPG format..)


Edited by Aircrftr (03/25/14 08:44 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6429149 - 03/25/14 08:48 PM

You know, I've just thought of something... The G2V color balance was obtained before I put my AO-X in the imaging train. I wonder if the coatings on that glass plate affected my color balance? I'll have to experiment with that.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: elbee]
      #6429313 - 03/25/14 10:50 PM

Here are the LRG&B Fits files from CCDStack. They are all averaged when combined.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6429350 - 03/25/14 11:14 PM

Hi Dan,
I'll download & process those files & put
the result on Astrobin.
It looks like you have plenty of colour signal.

cheers
Allan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6429395 - 03/25/14 11:39 PM

Thanks Alan. I'm looking forward to seeing what the problem is... In aviation, we call it "Loose nut behind the yoke" or a "short between the headset". We'll see.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6429510 - 03/26/14 01:02 AM Attachment (8 downloads)

Hi Dan,
You're right - this one was tricky.
I'll post some smaller versions here instead of Astrobin.
I had to play around with the colours before combining the channels & do
quite a bit of LAB mode boosting.
Here is a full frame.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6429512 - 03/26/14 01:03 AM Attachment (10 downloads)

Here is a rotated closeup.
I recommend that you always take colour as 2x2 binning from now on.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6429953 - 03/26/14 10:06 AM

Thanks Allan, It definitely looks better. I was taking advise from Gendlers book "Lessons from the Masters" that said (and I forget which one of the guys said it) that he likes to get 1x1 color data as well as LUM. It was in a section about the debate of doing 2x2 data Vs 1x1 for color. I guess I'll give 2x2 a try.
That doesn't really explain what's going on here tough. You would think that whether 1x1 or 2x2 that the colors should be closer to true color than this (leaving luminance out of the picture) So I wonder why all the yellow instead of the blues and reds that I get? Without all the manipulation you done, did it still turn out wanting to be looking all yellow or mainly like a straight luminance to you?

Dan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6429997 - 03/26/14 10:38 AM

Hi Dan,
the 2x2 binning increases the signal strength.
What I had to do was try & balance the colours better.
I tried combining as is but ended up with the same all yellow result.
I therefore stretched & adjusted the levels to give a boost to blue & some Green before combining the channels.

It was a bit of trial and error.
The background was adjusted with a mask & I had to use selected
colour to try & get rid of the magenta that resulted in the galaxy.
I actually played with all the selective colours & the neutral colours in selective colour.
In order to see what I was doing I boosted first with LAB colour.

The problem is that the colour pass band of the RGB filters is also affected by the efficiency
of the CCD at their respective pass bands.

You'd need to know all that technical information & do it
mathematically to end up with the right colours.
I just did it by sight.

It would help to have more colour signal to start off with
which is why I recommend 2x2 binning.


Another issue:
Also - the 4 FITS LRGB frames were not aligned & they wouldn't align in DSS until I changed them to TIFFS
& checked the Lum frame as a reference.

You need to make a master reference frame when stacking.

I have never had your above colour problem before.

I did sharpen at 2 pixels but used no noise reduction
so you can see a bit of noise at the edge of the galaxy.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
elbee
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/02/09

Loc: Arizona
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6430367 - 03/26/14 02:01 PM Attachment (7 downloads)

i think it is pretty nice data, dan. i use excalibrator for color ratios to apply in ccdstack. i used RGB weights of 1,0.85,0.96. i brought a Lum TIFF and combined RGB TIFF into photoshop. stretched with curves, applied some saturation and mild sharpening. there was a slight gradient i fixed with gradient xterminator. i did not apply any "color correction". i would be pleased to call this my own. i didn't see any instrument data in the FITS. did you collect the data with your AGO 17in?

Large version Aircrftr's Sunflower processed by elbee


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DeanS
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/12/05

Loc: Central Kentucky
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: elbee]
      #6430375 - 03/26/14 02:10 PM

Nice processing job Lee!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dp297
sage


Reged: 12/14/10

Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: DeanS]
      #6430433 - 03/26/14 02:43 PM Attachment (6 downloads)

I think u have beautiful data here....very nice. U just need to find the right way to control the color and the detail.
Here's my bit too on Pixinsight

Edited by dp297 (03/26/14 02:55 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: dp297]
      #6430820 - 03/26/14 05:53 PM

You guys have done well.
I would need to re-process the data to get the most out of it.

I always find that each image is so different
that I must learn how to process it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6430930 - 03/26/14 06:49 PM

Hi Allan;
While I'm familiar with the benefits of 2x2 binning, I gave it a try and it worked ok a while back. But since then I've done everything bin 1 and it's worked out too. The basic problem I have is the color balance, which is obviously screwed up. You've done great with the data! Now, I'm trying to get away from photoshop as I was never very good at it from the beginning so I've immersed myself in PixInsight and I'm wanting to continue and improve on it. I've processed my M78 in Pixinsight and everything went very well and I didn't have any problems getting the color right. I'm thinking the AO-X anti-reflective coatings on the glass plate may have affected my color balance. I tried last night to do a G2V balance before getting more data on M63 but couldn't get CCDAP to select my RG&B filters in the G2V wizard. The old V2G measurement had Green at 1.0, Red at 1.25 and Blue at .95. That is the weights I used to combine the channels in CCDStack.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: elbee]
      #6430946 - 03/26/14 06:55 PM

Hi Lee;

Your rendition looks pretty good! I'll go out tonight and try your combination ratio and see how it comes out for me.
And yeah, this was with the 17" scope.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: dp297]
      #6430952 - 03/26/14 06:57 PM

DP297, Now that's what I'm looking for! Excellent rendition and with PixInsight. Can you list the processes you used and how you got the color the way you did?

Thanks, Dan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6430963 - 03/26/14 07:02 PM

Thanks again to all you guys who gave advise. As I said before, I didn't usually have trouble like this until this particular project and it through me for a loop! The next clear night I have outside, I'll see what my G2V corrections tell me.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6430977 - 03/26/14 07:09 PM

Quote:

Hi Allan;
While I'm familiar with the benefits of 2x2 binning, I gave it a try and it worked ok a while back. But since then I've done everything bin 1 and it's worked out too. The basic problem I have is the color balance, which is obviously screwed up. You've done great with the data! Now, I'm trying to get away from photoshop as I was never very good at it from the beginning so I've immersed myself in PixInsight and I'm wanting to continue and improve on it. I've processed my M78 in Pixinsight and everything went very well and I didn't have any problems getting the color right. I'm thinking the AO-X anti-reflective coatings on the glass plate may have affected my color balance. I tried last night to do a G2V balance before getting more data on M63 but couldn't get CCDAP to select my RG&B filters in the G2V wizard. The old V2G measurement had Green at 1.0, Red at 1.25 and Blue at .95. That is the weights I used to combine the channels in CCDStack.




Hi Dan,
your mathematical figures seem to agree with what I adjusted.

I don't know Pixinsight but I found valuable information
on using Photoshop from Louie's videos here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ5b6pFHBGe66vsuSaXb-0A

I know all of his videos off by heart & I also use Fitswork4.

I think the best imagers seem to know both PI & PS & use both.

I would be interested to see what you could do with another re-process.
I know I could do better with another try.

I don't see why you are against binning 2x2.
The Luminance frames should still give you the same resolution end result because they are at 1x1.
The colour info you had was way down on the left hand side of the curves graph
even when I stretched in FITS Liberator at X1/5 - high compression.

There is good read here on binning:
http://www.starrywonders.com/binning.html

To me - binning is a huge advantage of a dedicated CCD camera over a DSLR.
Binning capability is part of the reason you pay so much for a CCD mono camera - why not use it?

Edited by alpal (03/26/14 07:10 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Peter in Reno
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6433591 - 03/28/14 01:02 AM Attachment (4 downloads)

Thank you for uploading your data. Your data is excellent. It's a matter of balancing the colors. It's possible that you might have to a little more work balancing the colors with Baader filters (I assume your filters are Baader) than Astrodon filters. After RGB combine, the background was very blue. After PI's DBE, Background Neutralization and Color Calibration, M63 started to look more natural. PixInsight probably has the best color calibration software than any other software.

Here is my quick process of your excellent data.

Peter


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Peter in Reno
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6433598 - 03/28/14 01:14 AM Attachment (6 downloads)

Here is a cropped version.

Peter

EDIT: Rotated the image 90 degrees.

Edited by Peter in Reno (03/29/14 12:53 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6434876 - 03/28/14 06:05 PM

Everyone has a different perspective & it shows the data is quite good.
I'm still waiting for Dan's new version.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6434993 - 03/28/14 07:12 PM

Here you go Lee. It's in the other thread where I said I was done with it.. LOL. I'll Put it here for convenience too. It's been thunderstorming here today, but is clearing of this evening so I might just be crazy enough to get some more data.. some of the best atmosphere I've had to image through has been just after a system passes through..



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6435029 - 03/28/14 07:38 PM

Nice job Dan - you see - the colour was there!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6435145 - 03/28/14 08:51 PM

LOL, Lee, it wouldn't be the first time I couldn't find something that was right under my nose.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6435476 - 03/29/14 01:31 AM Attachment (1 downloads)

I had another go & this is a cropped closeup.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dp297
sage


Reged: 12/14/10

Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6435555 - 03/29/14 04:24 AM

Nice going alpal....
U need to apply a green color removal algorithm to remove the greenish hue


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: dp297]
      #6435683 - 03/29/14 08:22 AM Attachment (2 downloads)

Quote:

Nice going alpal....
U need to apply a green color removal algorithm to remove the greenish hue




You're right.
I ran HLVG over it.
Is this better?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dp297
sage


Reged: 12/14/10

Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6435735 - 03/29/14 09:17 AM Attachment (6 downloads)

I gave it a try with
1. SCNR (Pix) or with
2. Histogram

I think u need to push it a bit more..but it could be my screen...not sure

Edited by dp297 (03/29/14 09:22 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: dp297]
      #6435745 - 03/29/14 09:25 AM

Yes - That's better but notice the background has come up with horizontal streaks?
Mine has bit of that too.

I masked the background with blurred layer mask to try & stop that.

I need a calibrated monitor to be sure.
The only other way is to use curves to lower the background intensity
but I hate having a black background.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6435747 - 03/29/14 09:28 AM

I replied too fast.
Now you have 2 pics of mine.
I'm really lost - which is best? LOL


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: dp297]
      #6435776 - 03/29/14 09:49 AM

DP, the one on the left looks perfect to me! This is about the point in the process where I have so many different files in so many different places I tend to get lost as to which one is which! Also, I agree about the monitors. That is why I went ahead and ordered a Spyder4 Pro colorimeter to get some of this inconsistency under control. Also, about the vertical banding, I've been getting that in my frames lately. I think I'm going to do a fresh batch of darks and bias frames for my library. If this one session has taught me one thing, it's that I need to be more vigilant on noise control. I was also trying to get as many frames as possible and starting my sessions too low towards the horizon. I think that hurt more than it helped.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6435788 - 03/29/14 09:58 AM Attachment (8 downloads)

Yes Dan - I agree.
I think my last effort here again is about all I can push
this image without overcooking it.
Some fresh darks & bias frames would help the background.
I might post the full size on Astrobin if you want?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dp297
sage


Reged: 12/14/10

Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6435927 - 03/29/14 11:37 AM

Call me Dimitris....
I am not convinced that the problem with the vertical lines is because of flats and stuff....I think u have solid data.

Perhaps it is a processing problem...I think its mostly chrominance noise intensified by jpeg compression


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Peter in Reno
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: dp297]
      #6436408 - 03/29/14 04:15 PM Attachment (6 downloads)

I toned down the color saturation a little bit from my first process. I guess there's no right or wrong way to process this complicated little galaxy.

Peter


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6436532 - 03/29/14 05:34 PM

Go for it Allan! If you get an APOD out of it, buy me a coke. K?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: dp297]
      #6436559 - 03/29/14 05:41 PM

Dimitris, I can't really see if the vertical banding is there after I dark/flat correct in MaxIm Dl, but nothing looks good in MaxIm Dl, but I see them in the FITS in CCDStack after I've done the registration and normalization and data rejection and average combine. It's in the average combine (as well as other combine methods) that it becomes really noticeable. The thing is that I've done it this way for a really long time and hadn't got them until now. The camera is fairly new and that's why I suspected that my calibration frames might have changed as the camera breaks in electronically...

Edited by Aircrftr (03/29/14 05:58 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6436582 - 03/29/14 05:51 PM

Peter, there's only a right way and wrong way if someone is paying us to do it. Right? Your rendition looks pretty good to me but it's a little too much contrast for my taste....


To the rest of you guys, I need to concentrate on the problem of chrominance noise where the signal is weak. I'd like to be able to smooth the noise to where it tapers off smoothly to a kind of milky translucence fading to black. (where black should be) instead of getting the pixelated RGB noise where the signal is weak. Dimitris, (or anyone else using PI) is that accomplished in ACDNR easily or is there another process that accomplishes that more effectively?

And I have to say once again, I really appreciate all this help. I'd venture to guess that most of us do our hobby mostly in isolation. It makes it hard to figure out some of the complicated things without someone else to bounce ideas off of.

Edited by Aircrftr (03/29/14 06:02 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6436588 - 03/29/14 05:54 PM

Allan, when I go back and look at what you've done... It really looks GREAT!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Peter in Reno
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6436609 - 03/29/14 06:04 PM

Quote:

Peter, there's only a right way and wrong way if someone is paying us to do it. Right? Your rendition looks pretty good to me but it's a little too much contrast for my taste....


To the rest of you guys, I need to concentrate on the problem of chrominance noise where the signal is weak. I'd like to be able to smooth the noise to where it tapers off smoothly to a kind of milky translucence fading to black. (where black should be) instead of getting the pixelated RGB noise where the signal is weak. Dimitris, (or anyone else using PI) is that accomplished in ACDNR easily or is there another process that accomplishes that more effectively?




Thanks for the comments and critiques. When you say too much contrast, are you referring that you prefer the whole galaxy to be more bluish rather than mix of brownish, whitish and bluish? That's kind of what I'm trying to do but I end up with multi-colors. I guess I may have been too aggressive on HDR Multi Scale Transform and Curves Transformation using Saturation. I'll go back and try to re-do.

As for reducing chrominance noise, you could control it using PixInsight's LRGB combination and click on the "chrominance noise reduction" check box. It works pretty well.

Thanks,
Peter


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6436746 - 03/29/14 07:22 PM

Quote:

Allan, when I go back and look at what you've done... It really looks GREAT!




Thanks Dan,
I uploaded the full frame to Astrobin & the data is credited to you with a link.

see here:

http://www.astrobin.com/87159/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6436787 - 03/29/14 07:48 PM

Yep Peter, it's the HDR Multiscale Transform. To me, it looks like 5 layers is good and 4 layers is too much. I always check the "to lightness" and "lightness Mask" and usually check "de-ring" I also found that a script named "Dark Structure Enhance" works good too. I'll definitely give the Chrominance noise reduction in the LRGB combination process.

There are so many different variables in so many different processes in PI. It's going to take a long time to explore them all.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6436801 - 03/29/14 08:03 PM

Allan, I have an action in PS (Astro-Tools) for that vertical banding that would clear that right up! That's what I did to my LRG&B frames after I got them all done and ready to combine. You'll see it's completely gone in my version on Astrobin..

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6436808 - 03/29/14 08:07 PM

Quote:

Allan, I have an action in PS (Astro-Tools) for that vertical banding that would clear that right up! That's what I did to my LRG&B frames after I got them all done and ready to combine. You'll see it's completely gone in my version on Astrobin..




The vertical banding is not too bad.
I got rid of most of it with selective colour.
I think we're getting too fussy now.

The picture is magnificent.
It's hard to find a better one with a Google search.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6436825 - 03/29/14 08:19 PM

LOL... Maybe I should just concentrate on gathering data and let you guys process it for me!

Clear Sky Clock says it's supposed to be an excellent night out, but it's not looking so good outside... If it does clear up, I'm going to start one that I've been wanting to do for a long time. NGC4725. I've got it all plotted in CCDAP and ready to start. And now we wait.......


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Peter in Reno
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6436836 - 03/29/14 08:31 PM

Quote:

Yep Peter, it's the HDR Multiscale Transform. To me, it looks like 5 layers is good and 4 layers is too much. I always check the "to lightness" and "lightness Mask" and usually check "de-ring" I also found that a script named "Dark Structure Enhance" works good too. I'll definitely give the Chrominance noise reduction in the LRGB combination process.

There are so many different variables in so many different processes in PI. It's going to take a long time to explore them all.




Hi Dan,

I experimented with 4, 5, and 6 layers for HDR Multi Scale Transform and I ended up with 5 layers. 6 layers resulted with too bright core. Here is my PI process flow:

1) RGB Combination
2) Crop RGB to remove black borders
3) Dynamic Background Extraction
4) Background Neutralization
5) Color Calibration
6) Multi Scale Median Transform (MMT) to reduce noise while linear
7) Histogram Transformation (HT)
8) SCNR
9) HDR
10 LHE
11) ACDNR

12) Align RGB with Luminance
13) DBE of Luminance
14) MMT of Luminance
15) HT of Luminance
16) HDR of Luminance
17) LHE of Luminance
18) ACDNR of Luminance

19) LRGB Combination of L (step #18) and RGB (step #11)
20) Curves Transformation using Sat and RGB/K
21) Unsharp Mask

Peter


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #6436883 - 03/29/14 09:09 PM

Saved that workflow!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpal
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/15/09

Loc: Melbourne Australia.
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6436933 - 03/29/14 09:44 PM

Quote:

LOL... Maybe I should just concentrate on gathering data and let you guys process it for me!

Clear Sky Clock says it's supposed to be an excellent night out, but it's not looking so good outside... If it does clear up, I'm going to start one that I've been wanting to do for a long time. NGC4725. I've got it all plotted in CCDAP and ready to start. And now we wait.......




Hi Dan,
I start work tomorrow in a new job so I won't be able to stay
up all night taking images - except maybe Friday or Saturday nights.
Therefore I hope you will post more data from your next project
to give me something to do in astronomy.
It's a thrill to process such good data from a large telescope.
I've already got 6 emails from Astrobin with "likes & follows".

cheers
Allan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6436940 - 03/29/14 09:48 PM

Apal knows what he's doing. It produced a great image. Always remember work flows need to change by what the issue is and the data. If you take the same approach on every image, that rarely works. It's trial and error. On my m 63 for example, dbe sucked. Gradient exterminator worked perfectly. Every image is different. The key is learning what tool from what program is going to work best. For example. If I have gradients that very from different nights, I may put each frame in an image container, apply Abe to all, then stack them. Also, all images should be registered to one frame at the same time . Don't combine then register. Star alignment of all images comes before any stacking of individual frames.
Bottom line , you can have routines, but don't get stuck in them.
Just like BPP, bad idea to create a final image and hence why they give you a warning!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: alpal]
      #6436942 - 03/29/14 09:49 PM

I'll let you know when I have something good to share!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dp297
sage


Reged: 12/14/10

Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: Aircrftr]
      #6437262 - 03/30/14 04:22 AM

Please check google for references for vertical banding....u will find a lot and usually it has to do with some settings for the CCD camera. Its a common problem.
There is calibration process for newly bought cameras...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jerryyyyy
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/06/11

Loc: Stanford, California
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: dp297]
      #6439185 - 03/31/14 10:29 AM

I appreciate the opportunity to process these data. I am trying the techniques from this new site on noise reduction:

http://pixinsight.com.ar/en/info/processing-examples/13/m-97-owl-nebula.html

Will take a while... but I see the noise problem in these data...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aircrftr
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/29/06

Loc: Claremore OK
Re: Uphill battle. opinions wanted. M63 new [Re: jerryyyyy]
      #6439255 - 03/31/14 11:08 AM

LOL... you want noise problems? YOU GOT EM!
Good luck!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (show all)


Extra information
13 registered and 18 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Oldfield, droid, Scott in NC, bilgebay, WOBentley 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 1237

Jump to

CN Forums Home




Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics