BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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One of the hardest things to do when restoring a classic telescope is selecting a color to repaint the tube and trim. Essentially two routes can be taken - you can mimic the original colors as much as possible, or you can go in a completely different color(s) making the scope more an expression of your own personal tastes.
Repainting in an original color is harder than you may think. There are just about a zillion shades of white out there, and matching white is further complicated by how white ages over time. The white on your telescope tube today may not be the white it was when it was new 10 to 15 years ago. Some years ago when I was trying to match the "Unitron White" of my #152 4" Unitron for a photo-guide scope rebuilt, I came as close as I could, but still could not get it quite right. Same thing with the repaint of a Takahashi finder scope. It seems like I spent hours at "Auto Zone" going thru all the import whites trying to find something close. I wound up bringing about 4 or 5 cans of different whites home to see what was best. As it turns out I finally found a very close match in the form of Plasti Kote FM 8141. I never did find what I consider a good match for Unitron White. With a complete rebuild of a 3" Unitron I went with Krylon "Ivory", a color I like much better anyway.
Often I like to go in a completely different direction. The disadvantage of doing that is it will hurt the resale value of a scope, particularly something like a Unitron or a Takahashi. Keep in mind however that your "replacement" paint job has to match so well and look so close to the original that if it is not mentioned, it has to completely fool someone into thinking that it is original. I don't recommend deceiving anyone in this way, you have to mention a rebuild or a repaint if that was done. For some purists, a repaint, no matter how good, detracts from the value of a classic scope like a Unitron.
I do think that going in a different direction with a totally different color can be lots of fun if you know the telescope you are repainting is a keeper or if it was bought cheap, strictly as a fixer-upper. In fact I would thoroughly recommend that everyone buy a cheap garage sale telescope or a less than perfect scope from eBay or AstroMart with the intention of fixing it up. Doing this will help you develop some rebuilding skills, primarily tube repair and painting skills. A good looking telescope that has some of your personal effort in it, that draws lots of compliments will give you plenty of personal satisfaction. Restoring telescopes is a hobby unto itself.
Anyway with a current project, rebuild of a Milo 3" f/18.4 refractor, I have been trying to find the equivalent of what I will call "Vespa" Blue-Green to replace the white that originally was the color of this tube. I think I have found a color that I like. See the attached Dupli-Color color chart. There is a color called "Malibu Mist" which comes close to what my "Mind's Eye" envisions as a good color for my rebuild project. Let me know what you think.
http://www.duplicolor.com/products/colors/premium.html
I am going for kind of a different retro look and I think this color will do that. I also think it will contrast nicely with the semi-gloss black focuser and objective cell.
The attached photo shows a repainted guidescope used with a Takahashi FCT 76. The guidescope was repainted with the previously mentioned Plasti Kote FM 8141. Not a bad color match in my opinion, but still not a perfect match.
Barry Simon
Edited by BarrySimon615 (03/31/08 09:05 AM)
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Here is another picture. It is my Unitron-Edmund. (Scope is a shortened Unitron tube with an Edmund 3" f/11 objective (836 mm f.l.). This tube assembly as well as finder and guidescope were painted using Krylon Ivory.
Barry Simon
Edited by BarrySimon615 (03/31/08 09:21 AM)
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Here is still another rebuild. Some may find the Dupli-Color "Metal Cast" Purple Anodized as decidedly non classic for a telescope, however this color really comes into it's own in direct sunlight. The scope, a Celestron Super Polaris C102 is my public star party scope. I call it the "Purple Planet Eater" and it is complete with green laser and "Marvin the Martian". Kids really like it.
Before the rebuild this scope was a beat up gloss black with several tube dents.
Barry Simon
Edited by BarrySimon615 (03/31/08 09:34 AM)
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Before painting can begin, the first step in tube repair is fixing major dents. The Milo refractor that I am working on now had major tube dents. Actually these were crush marks caused by the tube not being properly seated in the wood cradle in the wooden box. Looks like the lid was force closed or something fell on it. This fractured the 1/2" thick box top and crushed the tube. These dents were so bad that collimation of the scope was thrown off. I was able to buy the scope used, apparently because the previous owner, who bought it used, didn't have the time or ability to repair it.
While I had dealt with small tube nicks in the past, and had filled in drill holes; I wasn't sure just how to deal with this tube. Replacing it would be next to impossible, and I could not just simply fill in these major depressions in the tube as while that might be cosmetically ok, it did not address the fact that the tube damage had affected optical collimation. I contacted one of those auto body places that do body repair for things like hail damage. I was told that their process would not work on aluminum. Another possibility would be to fabricate a mandrill that had the same o.d. as the tube i.d. and to then force it thru the tube pushing the dents out in the process. This would require that the 2 glare stops be removed from the tube and then replaced exactly where they were. The danger also existed that the mandrill would get stuck in the tube and forcing it out would further damage the tube.
The best solution turned out to be use of a tail pipe expander. This is a device that is used to expand bent tail pipes. It basically works like a big molly bolt that is used to support weight on walls where pictures need to be hung where there is no backing stud to support the weight. Two opposing nuts which come together on a threaded shaft push up metal plates which are held in place with big o-rings. The tail pipe expander is closed at a diameter of about 2 inches or so and fully open at about 3.5 inches or so. This would be perfect for the Milo telescope tube. As the two areas with crush marks were on both ends of the tube were between the tube ends and the glare stops, they were accessible.
See the posted photo of the tail pipe expander.
Barry Simon
Edited by BarrySimon615 (03/31/08 10:06 AM)
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Preston Smith
Military Observer
   
Reged: 04/24/05
Posts: 3440
Loc: Eureka, Pa
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Very Good Thread Barry!
And timely....
I have been toying with the idea of painting one of my early Tasco's a different color. I have a nearby powder coater who has very reasonable prices (and some exotic color options).
Your purple scope is fantastic. Now I'm REALLY starting to think out of the box....
-------------------- Preston
Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name. Because of His great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing. Isaiah 40:26
SV115T,NHII,SV70,SV50 and Tele Vue Ranger
Vintage Refractors: Asahi-Pentax, Edmund Scientific, Tasco, Unitron
60mm Telescope Club
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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So with the tail pipe expander, the tube dents were removed for the most part. The exterior of the tube was not perfect, but the collimation was much improved as shown in this image.
Barry Simon
Edited by BarrySimon615 (03/31/08 10:10 AM)
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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While additional collimation tweaking could not be done thru further tube repair, the stellar image now looks ok and I believe I can tweak collimation a bit more thru remounting of the focuser.
The next step in the repair process is cosmetic repair of the tube prior to repainting. To do it right necessitates complete stripping of the tube externally. This can be done for the most part with a good paint remover such as Strypeeze. It may have to be applied several times. A single edge razor plate can be used to scrape off soft paint and once as much paint as possible is removed, any remaining paint can be sanded off. Follow instructions on the can of paint remover and do not do this inside. Try to avoid getting the stuff under your fingernails. If it gets on your skin it will begin to irritate after a half dozen seconds or so. Clean it off as soon as possible, but you will not "melt". Avoid the fumes and keep it away from pets. Don't do anything to really tick off the "significant other".
Once you have a bare tube, the next step is external tube repair if needed. I love to use a product called JP Weld. It is kind of an epoxy type liquid steel. When the resin and hardener are mixed, the white and black colors of the separate components mix to form a battleship gray paste which will cure completely in about 24 hours. For small little nicks and scratches in a tube surface, put just a little bit on the nick or scratch and then spread out, over and into the scratch or nick with a single edge blade pulled across the surface. A small repair like this will be virtually completely dry in under 6 hours and can then be sanded level with the surface of the tube. Remember that the less "extra" you put on the tube, the less "extra" you will have to sand off.
For larger dents, the process is basically the same, you just have to use more and it takes longer to cure. With larger repairs, you want to keep the JB Weld from running. Do that by keeping the area you are repairing level, so the product cannot easily run out of the repair. There may be a tendency to see small bubbles in the JB Weld when you are using more of it; pop these with a straight pin. The JB Weld will seek it's own level, filling in any holes. After the stuff is cured and sanded the next day, sanding may reveal a small hole as you sand down a bubble that has not popped; fill this in with a little more JB Weld until the repair meets your expectations. This stuff is strong and hard, it has been used to repair cracked transmission cases. It sands very well and it takes paint very well.
After the tube has been cosmetically prettied up, you should prime first using a good primer recommended for use with whatever paint you want to use. I would first sand the tube with about a 200 grit paper before priming. For painting a tube I will typically run a broom handle or rug pole thru the tube, suspending the pole in the center of the tube by packing balled up newspaper around it. The pole is suspended between two garbage cans or anything else that may work that will allow me to turn the tube with the pole after several passes of the spray paint. >>>>>>>>Spray - right to left, and immediately back over the same area going left to right, turn the tube slightly and repeat, overlapping slightly with each turn. Follow recommendations for the right distance. Keep the spray can agitated to avoid spitting paint. The paint may spit when the can is close to empty. Follow temperature recommendations for painting. Avoid windy days. Go for a glossy wet look, but avoid overpainting and creating runs. Only experience and mistakes will help you here. When it looks right, turn the tube to see if there are any areas where you perceive the primer shining thru, if so, spray those areas one last time. Stay with the tube about 10 minutes turning the pole, this will help you avoid runs. (Also avoid days when there is a lot of airborne stuff flying around, pollen, dust, etc. If your next door neighbor is cutting his yard, don't paint.)
The paint has to cure, and you want this to happen in a dust free safe place. I once left a tube suspended on it's pole between two lawn chairs. I went inside and while looking outside saw a crow land on the freshly painted tube. He felt it made a good perch. This ruined the paint job, I had to start all over again!
Find a place to suspend the tube in your "Man Cave" or hobby area. No sense in ticking off the wife, or having her try to move something and messing up the paint job or getting wet paint on her clothing.
To be safely handled by hand, paint takes awhile to completely cure. A lacquer (most automotive colors) can be safely handled and used in 24 hours or less. An enamel takes a lot longer. While an enamel may look cured and you can carefully handle a tube with direct contact, the paint is still not completely cured. A tube like this will scratch easily, just try it with your fingernail. Avoid putting an enamel painted tube in a cradle at this point, the felt in the cradle will leave marks in the paint.
How long does it take enamel to cure? Perhaps weeks to fully cure, maybe a bit longer. You can help it along on small parts such as finder tubes, and short focus refractors that are about 4" and smaller. Do this by letting the paint cure on it's own for about 24 hours. At that point you can make a suspension system for the tube using bent coat hangers, threaded rod, etc. so that you can hang the painted part in your oven for curing. The key is no painted surface should come in direct ocontact with another surface. Suspend in oven and bake for one hour at about 150 degrees. Have the oven vent on to pull moisture out of the oven. When the buzzer goes off, turn the oven off and open the door. Let the part stay in place until cool enough to handle. This process drives moisture out of the paint and cures it. It also tends to make a painted part look glossier in color and deeper. A part cured like this can be used right after curing.
Unfortunately large parts cannot be oven cured. A hair dryer can help, as can direct sunlight. If you can, just keep a tube off to the side, and let it cure by itself for the next month. Avoid the tendency to use such a tube too soon, patience has it's rewards.
Here is a photo of a JB Weld patched tube prior to sanding, priming and painting.
Barry Simon
Edited by BarrySimon615 (03/31/08 11:28 AM)
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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2nd shot of the whole tube.
Edited by BarrySimon615 (03/31/08 11:31 AM)
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 8330
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Quote:
One of the hardest things to do when restoring a classic telescope is selecting a color to repaint the tube and trim. Essentially two routes can be taken - you can mimic the original colors as much as possible, or you can go in a completely different color(s) making the scope more an expression of your own personal tastes.
Repainting in an original color is harder than you may think. There are just about a zillion shades of white out there, and matching white is further complicated by how white ages over time. The white on your telescope tube today may not be the white it was when it was new 10 to 15 years ago. Some years ago when I was trying to match the "Unitron White" of my #152 4" Unitron for a photo-guide scope rebuilt, I came as close as I could, but still could not get it quite right. Same thing with the repaint of a Takahashi finder scope. It seems like I spent hours at "Auto Zone" going thru all the import whites trying to find something close. I wound up bringing about 4 or 5 cans of different whites home to see what was best. As it turns out I finally found a very close match in the form of Plasti Kote FM 8141. I never did find what I consider a good match for Unitron White. With a complete rebuild of a 3" Unitron I went with Krylon "Ivory", a color I like much better anyway.
Often I like to go in a completely different direction. The disadvantage of doing that is it will hurt the resale value of a scope, particularly something like a Unitron or a Takahashi. Keep in mind however that your "replacement" paint job has to match so well and look so close to the original that if it is not mentioned, it has to completely fool someone into thinking that it is original. I don't recommend deceiving anyone in this way, you have to mention a rebuild or a repaint if that was done. For some purists, a repaint, no matter how good, detracts from the value of a classic scope like a Unitron.
I do think that going in a different direction with a totally different color can be lots of fun if you know the telescope you are repainting is a keeper or if it was bought cheap, strictly as a fixer-upper. In fact I would thoroughly recommend that everyone buy a cheap garage sale telescope or a less than perfect scope from eBay or AstroMart with the intention of fixing it up. Doing this will help you develop some rebuilding skills, primarily tube repair and painting skills. A good looking telescope that has some of your personal effort in it, that draws lots of compliments will give you plenty of personal satisfaction. Restoring telescopes is a hobby unto itself.
Anyway with a current project, rebuild of a Milo 3" f/18.4 refractor, I have been trying to find the equivalent of what I will call "Vespa" Blue-Green to replace the white that originally was the color of this tube. I think I have found a color that I like. See the attached Dupli-Color color chart. There is a color called "Malibu Mist" which comes close to what my "Mind's Eye" envisions as a good color for my rebuild project. Let me know what you think.
http://www.duplicolor.com/products/colors/premium.html
I am going for kind of a different retro look and I think this color will do that. I also think it will contrast nicely with the semi-gloss black focuser and objective cell.
The attached photo shows a repainted guidescope used with a Takahashi FCT 76. The guidescope was repainted with the previously mentioned Plasti Kote FM 8141. Not a bad color match in my opinion, but still not a perfect match.
Barry Simon
Barry..great thread. I needed to find the exact color of my 6"f/15..the one my father built. So I took several parts and had them color scanned. I got both greens matched.
You mentioned in your post..everything I did...great post.
Except my tube was 8 ft long, and 7" in diameter. After it spent 2 days on its rotating jig under heat lamps. I made a rotating jig so I would not have any drips form as the thicker apoxy paint dried. It then spent a week standing upright in my (vaulted) cieling livingroom.
Great post.
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
A great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group.
www.vimeo.com/6014031
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RRavneberg
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 634
Loc: Columbus, OH
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The issue of restoring is always an interesting one. When a friend and I reworked two Fecker Celestar 6 Maksutovs recently, we opted to do a 21st century renovation of the instruments rather than a mid-20th century restortion. That meant doing everything in the spirit of the original (e.g., no digital setting circles, Telrads,radical changes).
Paint was obviously a major problem, as the Feckers used a speckle finish that was difficult to match. So we did our best with what was available.
Our goal was to restore two unusable instruments to top performance without compromising the original design, not to put something in a museum display.
Every restoration project will have to approached differently and on its own merits. This was just what we did.
-------------------- Ron Ravneberg
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 8330
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Quote:
The issue of restoring is always an interesting one. When a friend and I reworked two Fecker Celestar 6 Maksutovs recently, we opted to do a 21st century renovation of the instruments rather than a mid-20th century restortion. That meant doing everything in the spirit of the original (e.g., no digital setting circles, Telrads,radical changes).
Paint was obviously a major problem, as the Feckers used a speckle finish that was difficult to match. So we did our best with what was available.
Our goal was to restore two unusable instruments to top performance without compromising the original design, not to put something in a museum display.
Every restoration project will have to approached differently and on its own merits. This was just what we did.
I love to restore.... Great paint job, and great application.
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
A great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group.
www.vimeo.com/6014031
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Awesomelenny
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 2801
Loc: Long: 81.42 W Lat: 41.21 N
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Hi Barry, Excellent article here. In fact, many of the steps you detail here were also mentioned on the Yahoo Unitron Telescopes forum, which you founded and moderated. It was yours that I adopted and learned how to restore the telescopes that I have done. You mentioned using Krylon's Ivory White on the shortened f/11 telescope. In your opinion, was this a very close match to the aged Unitron color? 
As you may know, I restored a 4 inch Unitron from what would have been a trash heap. I used Rust Oleum High Gloss White. That was really white! I was thinking of just lightly sanding that surface with a 400 or 600 grit sandpaper and applying a few coats of a enamel that would most closely match the Unitron white scheme. But that's maybe a later on project.
-------------------- Len
Meade 178 ED APO
127mm Astro_Tech ED APO
4" f/15 Model 166 Unitron with UNIWITT Pier
Televue Genesis SDF 101mm f/5.4
W.O. Zenithstar 66
2.4" f/15 Model 128C Unitron
Coronado Solarmax 90 DS Telescope
Losmandy Titan; G-11; all w/Gemini
All in a "Backyard Observatory"
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."
Psalm 19:1
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Quote:
Hi Barry, Excellent article here. In fact, many of the steps you detail here were also mentioned on the Yahoo Unitron Telescopes forum, which you founded and moderated. It was yours that I adopted and learned how to restore the telescopes that I have done. You mentioned using Krylon's Ivory White on the shortened f/11 telescope. In your opinion, was this a very close match to the aged Unitron color? 
No, not at all, the Plasti Kote FM 8141 would be a better match for a "new condition" Unitron. I went with the Ivory color because I liked it. Kind of reminded me of the early 90's/mid 90's TeleVue Genesis color. The Ivory is a creamy look color and gives the telescope richness. The Unitron photo that I have posted above does not really show the Ivory color well, the photo makes the Unitron look whiter than it really is.
Barry
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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless
   
Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 13431
Loc: Oort Cloud
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Lots of great info and advice, Barry! 
Gosh, that purple planet eater is an eye-catcher!!
--------------------
A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife, two curious cats and one sadly departed.
"Semper ubi sub ubi"
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jwaldo
Smart Mime
   
Reged: 04/26/04
Posts: 3519
Loc: SoCal
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Barry,
Great how-to! It'll come in handy if I ever work up the courage to repaint my 6333
-------------------- -Jim
DHQ 8"
C102 w/ upgraded focuser
ZenithStar 66 ED Triplet
DSH 6"
Transporter 70
Sears 60/900mm
10x50's & assorted other binos
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jwaldo
Smart Mime
   
Reged: 04/26/04
Posts: 3519
Loc: SoCal
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Barry,
Great how-to! It'll come in handy if I ever work up the courage to repaint my 6333
-------------------- -Jim
DHQ 8"
C102 w/ upgraded focuser
ZenithStar 66 ED Triplet
DSH 6"
Transporter 70
Sears 60/900mm
10x50's & assorted other binos
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Jim,
Nice avatar. Funny how a fair number of people who are amateur astronomers are also model railroaders. Here is part of my collection, and Espee (Southern Pacific) is a major player in my collection.
Barry Simon
Edited by BarrySimon615 (03/31/08 06:54 PM)
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Pedestal
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 03/11/06
Posts: 3855
Loc: Smoggy Bottom, Baytown,Texas
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Barry, can powder coating be done after an epoxy (JB Weld, etc) repair? I would have thought the repair would show through? Hubert
--------------------
Hubert
---------------------------------
www.smoggybottom.org
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Quote:
Barry, can powder coating be done after an epoxy (JB Weld, etc) repair? I would have thought the repair would show through? Hubert
All I know about powder coating is what I read on line. (The Wikipedia article seems pretty detailed.) Your question is best answered by an outfit that does powder coatings. As the JB Weld would have different properties than would the aluminum (if a refractor telescope tube) the adherence may be different. Check first with the outfit doing the coating for you.
Barry Simon
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Sometimes a repair may be just a simple touchup of a small scratch or chip. If paint is going to be applied on top of paint, a slight difference in color may become very noticeable. Paint tends to yellow with age so even with using the same exact paint, there could be a color difference. You always want to mix your paint well to ensure consistency.
Another consideration is just how compatible one type of paint is with another type. If you are using an enamel touch up you can use it over enamel and lacquer with good results, and with so-so results over an acrylic water base paint. Acrylic can be applied over itself and also over enamel and lacquer with good results. However lacquer presents more problems if used over anything but itself. When used over enamel and acrylic it tends to have a solvent type effect on those paints. The touch up area might skin, or wrinkle. Bottom line, know what you are painting over and know what you are painting with.
Also use a primer compatible with whatever top coat you are using.
If you have a paint chip that is not too large, the best way to deal with that is to have the chipped area facing up and with a very fine brush or toothpick, place a drop of paint in the center of the chipped out area. If fluid enough, a drop of paint should transfer from the brush or toothpick to the center of the chipped out area when that area is touched with the toothpick or brush; it should then spread out, filling the chip. You are filling the chip with paint. If the depression is deep, just put in a few drops and come back later to repeat the process. The paint will settle as it dries. It may take a few sessions to fill the hole. You can paint cure in the oven about a day after the final application. Once the paint is cured, you can very lightly sand the edges with very fine sandpaper. Follow this with rubbing compound and then maybe another session in the oven as the rubbing or polishing compound will soften the paint. Sometimes this can be done so well that the repair is very difficult to find.
Barry Simon
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 8330
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Quote:
Jim,
Nice avatar. Funny how a fair number of people who are amateur astronomers are also model railroaders. Here is part of my collection, and Espee (Southern Pacific) is a major player in my collection.
Barry Simon
Barry..... 
My train collection spent its time on the rail, on my large layout.
Man your collection is beautiful....
All my trains are stored away...for another day.
I'm green...an I try never to be green.
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
A great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group.
www.vimeo.com/6014031
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alvin58
super member
   
Reged: 04/15/06
Posts: 101
Loc: North Shore Lake Superior
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I have been having a debate with myself since last year. I have the paint match for my Sears 60mm Discoverer and was planning to repaint, flock tube interior and go through the mount to tighten it up. Would I be doing a diservice to the original or this is an acceptable procedure for these old guys?(As this one needs it) Allen
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jwaldo
Smart Mime
   
Reged: 04/26/04
Posts: 3519
Loc: SoCal
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I'm certainly on the fence about repainting (concerns about paint match, paint quality, and safely removing the stickers and whatnot), but I DID go through and re-grease and tune up the mount. I even Loc-tited the declination-axis-retainer nut
-------------------- -Jim
DHQ 8"
C102 w/ upgraded focuser
ZenithStar 66 ED Triplet
DSH 6"
Transporter 70
Sears 60/900mm
10x50's & assorted other binos
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Preston Smith
Military Observer
   
Reged: 04/24/05
Posts: 3440
Loc: Eureka, Pa
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Quote:
Barry, can powder coating be done after an epoxy (JB Weld, etc) repair? I would have thought the repair would show through? Hubert
Do not use JB Weld. Use Lab-metal:
http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/ Alvin Products: Lab-Metal
It has aluminum pigment in it for current to pass through it (so the powder coat will bond).
-------------------- Preston
Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name. Because of His great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing. Isaiah 40:26
SV115T,NHII,SV70,SV50 and Tele Vue Ranger
Vintage Refractors: Asahi-Pentax, Edmund Scientific, Tasco, Unitron
60mm Telescope Club
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Telescopeman54
Vendor - Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC.
   
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 1541
Loc: New Hampshire
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Barry:
That was very interesting and very informative. You have some unique answers to common problems.
Since I used to be a partner in a body shop I would chose to use other methods of repairing tubes. The exhaust pipe expander it a good idea for small tubes. Once a larger tube is distressed, though, it is more difficult. I have a 6" f/15 refractor that was on loan to a friend while I was in Iraq. A violent wind storm came up and knocked the entire thing over. The tube has some pretty nasty dents. They will be removed by the old "hammer and dolly" method. This is where I take a bodyman's dolly and various hammers and work the metal back into the proper shape. Once you've done this to a lot of fenders and doors on cars it gets to be pretty easy.
Eventually, I will have the tube so close to perfect again that it will be impossible to find the repair areas. Of course, any very minor imperfections will be fixed with spot putty and not epoxy. If any areas need that much material then the repair just isn't done well. My partner and mentor came from the old school where if you had to fill it you had to go back and do it right! I should point out that this is not a criticism of your workmanship. It's just that when we built show cars that cost thousands of dollars we were much more particular about such things. That training becomes a habit over time. After all of the metal work is done, a good coat of Zinc-Chromate primer will be laid down using an air powered spray gun. Zinc-Chromate is superior in its ability to bond to aluminum when compared to regular primer.
The finish is only as good as the preparation. It is not normally necessary for rougher grades of sanding material. On some automobiles, where custom made curves or shapes are built with body filler, or fiberglass, a 60 or 100 grit would be needed. With telescope tubes I don't think I've ever used anything more coarse than 320 grit. Actually, I start with 400 or even 600 grit wet and dry. I use a sanding block at all times. Using one's fingers can lead to an uneven finish since the skin on your hands and fingers is pliable and will mold into small imperfections.
Normally, 600 grit is about the finest that one should use when preparing for primer. The secret, as I mentioned, is in the preparation. Laying down primer, as well as top coats, should be done with a nice fine coat. It is not a good idea to try and cover everything in one session. Lay down a mist coat and let it dry for about 5 minutes. Then another and if necessary, another, then a final coat. Once the primer has dried for about an hour (The temperature has a lot to do with drying time.) you can wet sand the tube. This is where patience and quality start to show. Use a garden hose or a bucket of water to soak the wet and dry paper. Again 600 is a very good choice. Sand the primer gently and keep wetting the paper. The water will carry away the small particles of primer that are being removed by the sanding medium. When the primer begins to show through ever so slightly it is time to stop sanding. Wash the tube and let it dry. Repeat this entire process several times until the primer is built up to a point where none of the tube or earlier paint show through. Let everything dry for as long as necessary.
Top coats are an interesting item. With the huge steps forward in enamel paint it is quite possible to get a very good coat with one painting session. Lacquers on the other hand, are a very time consuming process as well as expensive. That type of paint is best left to someone with a lot of experience in a body shop, so, I will not cover it.
Enamel can be laid down just as was the primer. However, there is no wet sanding involved between coats. Each coat should be done within about 10 - 15 minutes of the last. Some paints will allow up to an hour between coats, but, that just leaves room for a distraction to take you away from the work. After that happens you may need to wait as much as a week before you can continue!
Build up each coat in thin layers. Remember to start the spray off of the end of the tube, carry it across the entire tube and only after the spray fan has left the tube should you stop spraying. Repeat as often as necessary. If light coats are done with care and allowed to partially dry for about 10 - 15 minutes each, there is virtually no chance to have any runs developed. Any run in the paint means that you laid it down too heavily on the last coat.
If you need to have an special color, a trip to a body shop supply house is the best bet. They can mix and match colors that don't even show up in the chip books. By the way, do not be afraid to look through some of the very old chip books from DuPont and Ditzler. Did anyone realize that the paint used by Astro-Physics is the exact one used on the 1986 Corvette? Yep! Check the chip charts against your A-P and see for yourself!
As mentioned by Barry, paint does age. It is exposed to the sun, oxygen, moisture, pollution and all kinds of things that can change the color. If an exact match is needed for a repair job then finding the closest match is mandatory. Once it is close then the paint technicians at the supply house can use their expertise to adjust the mix until it is a dead on match. It may take some time, but, it can be done. I did exactly this on an old telescope. It took us several days, because of drying time for the paint, but, we eventually wound up with an exact match. There was no way to tell which was the original paint and what had been repaired. Oh, yes, paint DOES change its tone when it dries. That is one of the things that the paint technician should consider when mixing the paint.
I am one of those people that like to have some spice in astronomy. I've painted OTAs some very interesting colors. Barry, you weren't the first one with a purple OTA! I did that to my 1965 Jaegers OTA about 7 years ago! I have also painted an RV-6 in a nice blue metallic and an Edmund 4-1/4" in an Emerald Green Metallic! (I think that green was left over paint from my 1972 Dodge Polara!) Heck! I even painted a Celestron 80 with Kameleon Paint! That stuff is expensive! It is about $375.00 PER PINT and that does not include the thinner or hardener!! I will attach some pictures for everyone to examine.
The next thing is finishing the touches. With modern enamels a clear top coat is easy. The same techniques need to be used to avoid getting runs in the finish, but, once it has dried the color coat is safe for a long time. In the days of lacquer paint it was necessary to paint and wet sand as many as 20 color coats then do the same with the clear coat! It was a big pain and a lot of work. However, until enamel paints matured, that was the only way to get that deep lustrous finish that actually had a sense of depth to it visually.
Barry mentioned that enamel paints can take a longer time to dry than is apparent. It's not actually a drying time as much as it is a curing time. The paint surface can dry quickly. However, the thinners that are in the paint below the surface need to leach out and that takes time. Heat, as he mentioned, is a great way to accelerate the process. It used to be, and in some cases still is true, that if your car needed to have paint work done, you would be advised to not wax it for 90 days! Also, the only way to wash it was with cold running water and nothing more for that time period. That is because the paint needed to cure. Now, most shops have huge baking ovens to solve this problem. Still, unless you can put the entire tube, or whatever, into an oven and let is sit for up to six hours, it will need to cure. Again, temperature and humidity are an issue here. Since I haven't a large enough oven for big tubes, I hang them in a corner where the won't be disturbed and leave them alone for several weeks, even months, before I put them into service. This is the only way that I have been able to get the hard finish that I wanted and that wouldn't take an impression from the felt in tube rings when they were tightened down. I am now working on building a large and long baking oven just for OTAs such as the one for my refractor.
One last little thing that many people over look is trim. It's done with cars and boats. Why not with a telescope tube? I've done some nice simple lettering and pin striping on a few tubes. It was just basic stuff and was done with special tape because I have just never been able to paint straight lines by hand. Again, check the pictures and you will see some of that gold trim.
Barry, I almost forgot to mention something. Try the Rustoleum Appliance White spray bomb for the Unitron. I think that it will be about the closest match you will find. I'm pretty certain that the finish on the old Unitrons was the same stuff that was used on washing machines and dryers! LOL
OK! I've just about written a book! What can I say? This caught my attention and it is something that I do and do well. I guess it kind of takes me back to the days when cars were cool and unique and we hadn't a care in the world!! LOL
Clear skies to all and thanks for letting me carry on a bit.
Steve Forbes
-------------------- Stephen Forbes - President
Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC
61 Valhalla Farm Road
Hillsboro, NH 03244
Web: http://TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Email: Stephen.Forbes@TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Phone: 1.603.325.0619
6" f/15 Jaegers refractor on GOTO GEM
5.1" f/8 Burgess on CG-5 w/ iOptron GOTONOVA
102mm f/7 refractor on iOptron Mini Tower
1975 Celestron Orange Tube C8 on Equatorial Mini Tower
1978 RV-6 on iOptron Mini Tower
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Telescopeman54
Vendor - Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC.
   
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 1541
Loc: New Hampshire
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Criterion
-------------------- Stephen Forbes - President
Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC
61 Valhalla Farm Road
Hillsboro, NH 03244
Web: http://TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Email: Stephen.Forbes@TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Phone: 1.603.325.0619
6" f/15 Jaegers refractor on GOTO GEM
5.1" f/8 Burgess on CG-5 w/ iOptron GOTONOVA
102mm f/7 refractor on iOptron Mini Tower
1975 Celestron Orange Tube C8 on Equatorial Mini Tower
1978 RV-6 on iOptron Mini Tower
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Telescopeman54
Vendor - Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC.
   
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 1541
Loc: New Hampshire
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Criterion agaon
-------------------- Stephen Forbes - President
Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC
61 Valhalla Farm Road
Hillsboro, NH 03244
Web: http://TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Email: Stephen.Forbes@TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Phone: 1.603.325.0619
6" f/15 Jaegers refractor on GOTO GEM
5.1" f/8 Burgess on CG-5 w/ iOptron GOTONOVA
102mm f/7 refractor on iOptron Mini Tower
1975 Celestron Orange Tube C8 on Equatorial Mini Tower
1978 RV-6 on iOptron Mini Tower
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Telescopeman54
Vendor - Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC.
   
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 1541
Loc: New Hampshire
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Edmund, unfinshed. The green one in the middle.
-------------------- Stephen Forbes - President
Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC
61 Valhalla Farm Road
Hillsboro, NH 03244
Web: http://TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Email: Stephen.Forbes@TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Phone: 1.603.325.0619
6" f/15 Jaegers refractor on GOTO GEM
5.1" f/8 Burgess on CG-5 w/ iOptron GOTONOVA
102mm f/7 refractor on iOptron Mini Tower
1975 Celestron Orange Tube C8 on Equatorial Mini Tower
1978 RV-6 on iOptron Mini Tower
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Telescopeman54
Vendor - Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC.
   
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 1541
Loc: New Hampshire
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Celestron 80mm with Kameleon Paint. $365.00 PER PINT!!
-------------------- Stephen Forbes - President
Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC
61 Valhalla Farm Road
Hillsboro, NH 03244
Web: http://TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Email: Stephen.Forbes@TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Phone: 1.603.325.0619
6" f/15 Jaegers refractor on GOTO GEM
5.1" f/8 Burgess on CG-5 w/ iOptron GOTONOVA
102mm f/7 refractor on iOptron Mini Tower
1975 Celestron Orange Tube C8 on Equatorial Mini Tower
1978 RV-6 on iOptron Mini Tower
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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eStephen,
Great pictures and explanation of your technique. I do want to clarify a few things regarding the use of JB Weld. While this stuff does have a resin and hardener like an epoxy. It does not perform like an epoxy in respect to it's texture when hard. In that respect it is more like an automotive bondo. If mixed well it will sand very well when cured and it does not have a tacky feel. Going beyond a bondo, it has stayed in place for years now, many years without any signs of cracking or shrinking on repairs that I have made.
I do agree that any surface to be repaired should be leveled as well as possible before anything be it a putty or JB Weld is used. A hammer to tap out dents is just not practical when you have a 2.5" to 3.5 internal diameter tube. I have used the hammer technique on larger tubes like my 6" f/5 Jaegers with a 7" diameter tube.
I think the best advise with any of these repairs is to take your time, do it right, and have patience during the curing process.
The attached photo shows the dewshield for the 4" Celestron Super Polaris. It did have a dent in the dewshield which I was able to tap out for the most part. Only a very small amount of JB Weld was used to smooth the surface. The dewshield was then fine sanded, primed and painted, followed by an oven baking. The baking not only cures the paint but also gives the paint job a lustre that does not seem to happen without the baking. The picture was taken of the dewshield in the same area where the dent repair was made.
Barry Simon
Edited by BarrySimon615 (04/01/08 05:06 PM)
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Awesomelenny
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 2801
Loc: Long: 81.42 W Lat: 41.21 N
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Hi Barry!
I do the same thing with my Lionel Trains!!! I have them in a wall shelf that I made out of Cherry with a oak veneer rear panel! You have those beautiful Big Boys and other steamers. I have New Haven & Santa Fe F3's, a Pennsylvania #681 Steam Turbine etc... I also have HO's and a modular Steel Mill layout with a switching yard in HO.
Ok moderator...I know...off topic!!!
-------------------- Len
Meade 178 ED APO
127mm Astro_Tech ED APO
4" f/15 Model 166 Unitron with UNIWITT Pier
Televue Genesis SDF 101mm f/5.4
W.O. Zenithstar 66
2.4" f/15 Model 128C Unitron
Coronado Solarmax 90 DS Telescope
Losmandy Titan; G-11; all w/Gemini
All in a "Backyard Observatory"
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."
Psalm 19:1
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Awesomelenny
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 2801
Loc: Long: 81.42 W Lat: 41.21 N
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Stephen, Your techniques are very well detailed. In fact, both you and Barry have already contributed a significant amount of information here. This thread should be saved for later referral. Especially interesting was the painting. I found it really hard to believe that it would take paint so long to cure. I always thought that a week was enough. I will now wait much longer since your writing about this. Thank you both!
-------------------- Len
Meade 178 ED APO
127mm Astro_Tech ED APO
4" f/15 Model 166 Unitron with UNIWITT Pier
Televue Genesis SDF 101mm f/5.4
W.O. Zenithstar 66
2.4" f/15 Model 128C Unitron
Coronado Solarmax 90 DS Telescope
Losmandy Titan; G-11; all w/Gemini
All in a "Backyard Observatory"
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."
Psalm 19:1
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Quote:
Stephen, Your techniques are very well detailed. In fact, both you and Barry have already contributed a significant amount of information here. This thread should be saved for later referral. Especially interesting was the painting. I found it really hard to believe that it would take paint so long to cure. I always thought that a week was enough. I will now wait much longer since your writing about this. Thank you both!
I once got a 70 mm finder scope that was put together in the U.S. It was rushed to completion and there was evidence that the paint was still not cured when it was bagged up and shipped out. The paint fumes were pretty strong in the shipping box.
I guess we will have to talk trains "off topic". But a quick few words, check out some other pictures I have in the "Just Trains" Section over in Off-Topic, under the heading "Cameras and Photography". Also check out one of the photos I just posted in the Cameras and Photography Section under the header "Water Towers".
Barry Simon
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mikey cee
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 3520
Loc: bellevue ne.
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Barry....Any 4-6-6-4 Challengers to go with the Big Boys? You wouldn't have a UP 4-8-4 to go with that SP by chance also? Sorry I digress. Mike
-------------------- 7x35 and 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957), 4.25" f/14.8 tasco 20te.
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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I always thought that a telescope tube painted as a "spectral line would be very interesting. I have never tried but I don't think I quite have the skills to be truly happy with the result. A nick or scratch in a "transition area would also be very difficult to deal with.
Over in "Off Topic" under Cameras and Photography those of you interested in trains can find a happy, warm home. Just look for "Just Trains". I have a number of photos posted there and will meet anyone there for train discussions - real or model.
Barry Simon
Edited by BarrySimon615 (04/01/08 07:52 PM)
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Telescopeman54
Vendor - Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC.
   
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 1541
Loc: New Hampshire
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Barry:
As far as the picture of the dew shield is concerned, I have only one question about it. What dent? If there were ANY imperfections in that repair that metallic would show it! Well done!
Also, you are correct in stating that baking the finish helps to add a lustre to the paint. That's why I am building that OTA oven. If it works out I should be able to bake OTAs for 8" f/15 tubes.
I have been able to hammer and dolly smaller tubes. I used a modified tack hammer and extended the handle to get inside. Sometime it is necessary to make custom tools to do the job. That in itself can be pretty interesting and rewarding.
You do excellent work!
Now, about that spectral line paint job... Hmmmmm.... You are going to have me thinking about that one until I set off the smoke alarms! LOL
CS
Steve
-------------------- Stephen Forbes - President
Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC
61 Valhalla Farm Road
Hillsboro, NH 03244
Web: http://TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Email: Stephen.Forbes@TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Phone: 1.603.325.0619
6" f/15 Jaegers refractor on GOTO GEM
5.1" f/8 Burgess on CG-5 w/ iOptron GOTONOVA
102mm f/7 refractor on iOptron Mini Tower
1975 Celestron Orange Tube C8 on Equatorial Mini Tower
1978 RV-6 on iOptron Mini Tower
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Lew Chilton
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/20/05
Posts: 1022
Loc: SoCal
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Steve, Barry, Preston, Lenny, et al,
Terrific thread. I'm learning a lot!
I am restoring my almost 50 year old home-built iron and steel Newt. mount and plan to have it powder coated. It was recently sandblasted, as you can see in the attached picture. I was about to use JB Weld to plug up some holes and smooth out some old welds on the iron legs, but instead I will use hi-temp Lab-Metal, as per Preston's advice.
Unfortunately, the declination bearing is made of babbit, so I can't have the dec. housing (actually, a pipe tee) powder coated lest the babbit melt in the powder coating oven.
The counterweight is made of iron pipe but is filled with lead. I think it'll be safe for powdercoating because of thermal inertial. Do you think I'm right, or should I also not have it powder coated?
Prior to sending the mount to the powder coaters, I will have to have some additional parts sandblasted and possibly have what's already been sandblasted, sandblasted again because some oxidation is beginning to form.
Question: To prevent further oxidation before going to the powder coaters - which may still be a few months down the road - can I prime the mount using an etching primer from a spray can? Will such a primer be compatible with powder coating?
Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.
-Lew
P.S. I also am a railfan and have a Lionel train collection as well as N-scale. No layout currently.
-------------------- I don't get no respect, but my scopes do!
----------------------------------------------
1961 Swift 60mm model 839 (2); 2003 TV-102/GM-8; 1959 8" f/6 Treckerscope; 1959 8" f/7.4 Murray Scope; 1959 Fecker Celestar-4; 1978 4" Edmund Astroscan; c. 1986 4-inch Celestron-Vixen SP-C102; c. 1950 20X60 Saturn spotting scope; 1963 7X50 Nippon Kogaku binoculars; Unitron #114 alt-az mount (Swifty-tron)
Edited by Lew Chilton (04/02/08 01:33 AM)
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Telescopeman54
Vendor - Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC.
   
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 1541
Loc: New Hampshire
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Oh MY! Babbitt bearings! I haven't seen those in YEARS!! Where did you get this thing? Those are some small axle shafts! What kind of scope did it hold, originally?
Sand blasting is great, but, bead blasting is better. Sand can actually get stuck in the metal and can ruin a paint job when it breaks lose. Bead blasting material has less of a tendency to stick to the metal and leaves a better finish. You will still need to do some sanding to get the finish smooth, though.
As soon as you get the metal cleaned up, immediately after blasting it and sanding it. You can lay down a primer coat to protect it. However, that will only be good for short term protection since primer can attract moisture and eventually the rust will begin developing again.
I do not know if powder coat will work with primer paint. I kind of doubt it. For something like this, especially where lead and Babbitt material are involved, I'd stick with a good enamel paint and forget about the powder coating.
By the way, I still have some old lead counterweights that I cast on my mothers kitchen stove. They were never painted and work just fine. I never even painted them. LOL
CS
Steve
-------------------- Stephen Forbes - President
Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC
61 Valhalla Farm Road
Hillsboro, NH 03244
Web: http://TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Email: Stephen.Forbes@TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Phone: 1.603.325.0619
6" f/15 Jaegers refractor on GOTO GEM
5.1" f/8 Burgess on CG-5 w/ iOptron GOTONOVA
102mm f/7 refractor on iOptron Mini Tower
1975 Celestron Orange Tube C8 on Equatorial Mini Tower
1978 RV-6 on iOptron Mini Tower
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Mr Magoo
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 11/05/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Franklin, Indiana
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Quote:
Do not use JB Weld. Use Lab-metal:
http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/ Alvin Products: Lab-Metal
It has aluminum pigment in it for current to pass through it (so the powder coat will bond).
Preston,
That's good to know. I talked to my local powdercoater and he told me that the powdercoat would not work with any kind of plastic body filler either like Bondo. You can even buy powdercoat kits to do at home. Sears sells one in their catalog. I've even known some guys who have done their own anodizing, but that's kind of nasty business. I did some nickel electroplating when I was in high school with the help of my mom who is a metallurgist/corrosion engineer.
I love reconditioning things. I love redoing old tools, furniture, bicycles, etc... There are a myriad of different spray colors and finishes available to us these days that we didn't have even 10 or 15 years ago. I'm building a solar newt right now and trying to decide how to finish the tube. It's a cardboard tube, so I have to deal with the spiral on the outside.
What I want to know is how you guys bake paint in the oven without suffering the wrath of wifey. My wife was just given a 1 year old Dynasty range that cost $6,000.00 new. No way she is going to let me near that thing with paint! I've been trying to think of a way to rig the old one up out in my garage. Bigget problem I can see is that it's a gas oven. Probably need to have the oven pre-heated and turned off before putting the parts in to avoid becoming the subject of a Mythbusters episode. Great thread BTW. Thanks Barry!
-------------------- Ken
Franklin, IN
Member, Indiana Astronomical Society
B.S.A. Astronomy Merit Badge Counselor
6" f/10 Dob
Vintage Sears Discoverer 4-6305A 60mm
Vintage Manon 60mm (The Marsha Scope)
Criterion RV-6
My CN Photo Gallery
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Lew Chilton
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/20/05
Posts: 1022
Loc: SoCal
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Steve,
Here's my home-built Newt. in its entirety the way it looked in 1962. Cave figured the 8-inch f/7.4 mirror in 1959. The scope was finished in 1960. After I got my driver's license in 1959, I hauled it to star parties in a 1953 Buick Roadmaster. I sold it in 1963 upon entering the service and got it back in 2004, a rusted basket case with many of the OTA components missing. The shafts are 1-1/4 inch stainless steel. The counterweight is made from an oil well casing, is filled with lead and weighs 22#. The dec. and R.A. housings are pipe tees, the pedestal is made from a 5-1/2 inch diam. oil well casing. The legs were fabricated from scrap iron by my dad at the place he worked. My dad had it painted at his work with black wrinkle enamel. It is one heavy beast that could be upgraded in many ways, but I will leave it just the way it is because it has so much sentiment for me.
-------------------- I don't get no respect, but my scopes do!
----------------------------------------------
1961 Swift 60mm model 839 (2); 2003 TV-102/GM-8; 1959 8" f/6 Treckerscope; 1959 8" f/7.4 Murray Scope; 1959 Fecker Celestar-4; 1978 4" Edmund Astroscan; c. 1986 4-inch Celestron-Vixen SP-C102; c. 1950 20X60 Saturn spotting scope; 1963 7X50 Nippon Kogaku binoculars; Unitron #114 alt-az mount (Swifty-tron)
Edited by Lew Chilton (04/02/08 04:43 AM)
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Re- oven baking.
The oven we have is electric, not gas. Maybe because it is electric and maybe because I always have the vent on when I am baking painted telescope parts, there is very little in the way of lingering paint odor. To be on the safe side, odor wise, you may want to crank up the empty oven again after the painted parts are removed and run it again at a higher heat with the vent on to totally remove any paint odor.
Another back burner project of mine is an "oven extension". I bought some sheet steel several years ago and drew up some plans to bent it to make an extension on our oven. The whole contraption would rest on the open door of the oven which is stable and completely horizontal when open. This would allow me to bake/cure parts as long as 40". That would be long enough for the Celestron SP C102. That purple tube never got a baking and it does have one bad spot that was scratched and touched up. Maybe I will complete that oven project one day, but it is not a priority right now.
One restoration issue that I have that others may be able to give good advise on is what are the best (and safest) ways to straighten a bent shaft. I recently straightened a bent shaft on a Unitron #114 alt-azimuth mount. This azimuth slow motion was so bent that it would bind when turned so was essentially non operating. I removed it from it's threaded receptacle and with it between two metal plates, pounded it straight. (I tried a vise but had little luck with that.) There is another shaft on another mount, purchased used, that has a bent shaft too. That one is a chrome plated shaft that I think may have more tendency to fracture than would the nickel plated brass shaft on the Unitron mount. Anyone have a good recipe for shaft trueing?
Barry Simon
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Telescopeman54
Vendor - Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC.
   
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 1541
Loc: New Hampshire
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Lew:
That was a nice scope. Even though it is now distressed, at least you got it back. How many people are lucky enough to recover an instrument from their youth that they later regret selling?
Just stick with the paint and keep it original. The extra effort and expense of powder coating, etc. won't be worth it. Also, if it gets a nick or ding you can fix it up right away and no one will ever know.
Hey! Magoo! What the Hell is a wife?!! My last one took her final breath in '04! Been happily single ever since and HOPE to STAY THAT WAY!!
sbf
-------------------- Stephen Forbes - President
Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC
61 Valhalla Farm Road
Hillsboro, NH 03244
Web: http://TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Email: Stephen.Forbes@TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Phone: 1.603.325.0619
6" f/15 Jaegers refractor on GOTO GEM
5.1" f/8 Burgess on CG-5 w/ iOptron GOTONOVA
102mm f/7 refractor on iOptron Mini Tower
1975 Celestron Orange Tube C8 on Equatorial Mini Tower
1978 RV-6 on iOptron Mini Tower
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Telescopeman54
Vendor - Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC.
   
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 1541
Loc: New Hampshire
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Bent shafts are a tough one. I could see where using a lathe to hold and spin the part might work. A device to apply pressure, slowly and constantly, from the cross slide MAY allow you to straighten it out. How long is the shaft and how thick?
sbf
-------------------- Stephen Forbes - President
Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC
61 Valhalla Farm Road
Hillsboro, NH 03244
Web: http://TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Email: Stephen.Forbes@TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Phone: 1.603.325.0619
6" f/15 Jaegers refractor on GOTO GEM
5.1" f/8 Burgess on CG-5 w/ iOptron GOTONOVA
102mm f/7 refractor on iOptron Mini Tower
1975 Celestron Orange Tube C8 on Equatorial Mini Tower
1978 RV-6 on iOptron Mini Tower
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Jim Rosenstock
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/14/05
Posts: 3713
Loc: MD, south of the DC Nebula
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Quote:
Hey! Magoo! What the Hell is a wife?!! My last one took her final breath in '04!
I'm sure the poor lady is better off now.
And I wondered why so few women post on this forum...
Steve, please limit your future posts to the topic of classic telescopes, and work out your evident problems with women someplace else. Please.
Jim
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2manyscopes
sage
   
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 215
Loc: Pacific NW
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Quote:
Barry, can powder coating be done after an epoxy (JB Weld, etc) repair? I would have thought the repair would show through? Hubert
Simple answer is no. There are however two auto body fillers that are compatible with aluminum and the powder coat process. The names escape me but your powder coater should know. I used one to fill about a dozen holes in a 7" diameter tube with perfect powder coat results. Bill
-------------------- 1962 8" f/8 Cave Astrola Model "B" Deluxe complete
1970 8" f/6 Cave Astrola Lightweight deluxe OTA
1976 6" f/15 Cave Astrola refractor
195? 10" f/7.3 Cave Astrola Newtonian
8" f/6 Richard Fagin Dob
198? Celestron SP-C8
2003 Celestron Fastar C-14
Meade 6" f/3.6 Schmidt Newtonian
4" f/15 ATM refractor circa 1959
4" f/6 BW Optik Semi-Apo refractor
Celestron C102
University Optics 80mm f/6.25 refractor kit scope
William Optics 80SD refractor
Celestron branded Losmandy G-11
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2manyscopes
sage
   
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 215
Loc: Pacific NW
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Mr. Simon, On your "Purple Planet Eater" scope, I think I see a sliding brass counterweight to the right of the laser pointer. Since it looks like there is little to no room for the weight to slide what is it for? Does it counter the rotational torque of the finder?
I've had a few scopes with sliding counterweights on very short rods and they have very little to no effect at all on tube balance.
Bill
-------------------- 1962 8" f/8 Cave Astrola Model "B" Deluxe complete
1970 8" f/6 Cave Astrola Lightweight deluxe OTA
1976 6" f/15 Cave Astrola refractor
195? 10" f/7.3 Cave Astrola Newtonian
8" f/6 Richard Fagin Dob
198? Celestron SP-C8
2003 Celestron Fastar C-14
Meade 6" f/3.6 Schmidt Newtonian
4" f/15 ATM refractor circa 1959
4" f/6 BW Optik Semi-Apo refractor
Celestron C102
University Optics 80mm f/6.25 refractor kit scope
William Optics 80SD refractor
Celestron branded Losmandy G-11
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Don W
Postmaster
   
Reged: 05/19/03
Posts: 14621
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
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Since I'm no longer a moderator in this forum, I have asked those that are to make this thread Sticky. There's such great material here, I'd hate to see it roll off the front page and be forgotten.
-------------------- Don Wyman
Obsession 18" f/4.5 #1166
W/Argo Navis DSC and Torus Primary
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John Jarosz
Astro Gearhead
   
Reged: 04/25/04
Posts: 2287
Loc: Chicago area, IL
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This is a great thread as I am getting ready to paint and finish my 6" F5 refractor.
Some of my thoughts:
I made a mandrel so I could mount my 7" OD tube in my lathe. A belt sander running in the opposite direction of the lathe results in a very randomized uniform finish on the tube. Finish the sanding with the random orbit sander while the lathe is running. This is tough with those F15 scopes.
Tower Paint will match any sample and put the paint into a spray can for you. I've used them for motorcycle painting. Very good product.
If you do a lot of powder coating buy an electric stove for the garage. You can buy em for the cost of the scrap metal at a junkyard. I can't imagine the grief I'd suffer from powder coating in my kitchen. I'd have to sleep with one eye open.
Only trouble is, I can't decide if I want a white tube or some snazzy color.
Great stuff everyone.
John
-------------------- 6" F4.6(w/Paracorr) GEM reflector, 8" F11 Dall Relay Scope
6" F5 RFT Refractor, Garrett Gemini 20x80 LW
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Pedestal
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 03/11/06
Posts: 3855
Loc: Smoggy Bottom, Baytown,Texas
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Modest cost baking oven: (I used this setup in gun building) A small electric hotplate. About 6 feet of of 8" ordinary wood stove pipe. A BBQ pit thermometer. A piece of plywood bigger than 8" with a small hole in the middle and a suspension wire going through it. Put the thermometer in about the middle of the pipe. Stand the pipe up on the hotplate, and suspend the piece by the wire on the top cover. At the low temp for this kind of stuff, a wooden top is just fine. Shaft straightening: Tough one. Up to about 3/4", (depending on lenght). Two machinest's V blocks, a dial indicator on a stand, and a clamp with a short piece of angle iron welded to the screw side with the "V" down. Also need a sturdy workbench to set it up. You can get pretty close with this rig, though. When you find the high side, you'll have to run the clamp down a bit past center, it'll spring back some. But then, I have also straightened rifle barrels by setting up the V-blocks and indicator, marking the high side, and then giving the nearest telephone pole a healthy whack with the high side! That works, too. Main thing, you got to know where high/low is...  (I have some pretty neat pics of a Challenger that came to Houston a couple of years ago. If anyone is interested let me know) Hubert
--------------------
Hubert
---------------------------------
www.smoggybottom.org
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Quote:
Mr. Simon,
On your "Purple Planet Eater" scope, I think I see a sliding brass counterweight to the right of the laser pointer. Since it looks like there is little to no room for the weight to slide what is it for? Does it counter the rotational torque of the finder?
I've had a few scopes with sliding counterweights on very short rods and they have very little to no effect at all on tube balance.
Bill
Bill,
Yes, the small brass counterweight and support is there simply to offset the weight of the finder and bracket. The one in the picture, a 50 mm with solid bracket is pretty heavy, so the weight works out well with the finder and bracket being at about the 10 o'clock position as viewed from the rear, the laser and bracket being at the 12 o'clock position and the brass weight and support being at the 2 o'clock position.
Additionally the heavy finder and bracket plus brass weight and support both help in getting more weight to the rear of the scope to offset the weight of the objective cell. I will see if I have a good picture of the brass weight and it's support. The weight and support were made for me by Ken Dauzat.
Barry Simon
Edited by BarrySimon615 (04/02/08 08:12 PM)
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AaronM
super member
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 340
Loc: NRW, Germany
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Hello friends,
here is my refurbishing/repair of the declination-drive of my old “Stausslike-GEM”.
As you can see in this thread :
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2119714/page/1/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1
The original setup was a tangent-drive with a spring-bolt.( a little bit swiffeling setup ). The base of this drive was made from acrylic-glass !!! After a few observing-session this material get a crack.
So I decided at first to make this unit completely new from aluminium. I have a lathe but no
milling machine and my friend who has one, was a long time ill.
So I made it the other way : from old ATM-parts I built a new declination drive with a worm wheel. Here it is.
Kind regards Michael
Edited by AaronM (04/03/08 12:06 AM)
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AaronM
super member
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 340
Loc: NRW, Germany
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dec-block from acrylic-glass !
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AaronM
super member
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 340
Loc: NRW, Germany
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refurbished/repaired new dec-drive with worm-wheels
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clintwhitman
Caveman
   
Reged: 01/01/07
Posts: 2429
Loc: ValVerde CA(SoEasyaCavemanCanD...
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Due to the god of vintage telescopes smiling at me, I have only had to paint two OTAs #1 my 4" Unitron from the Netherlands. I took it to my friend who has a Jaguar paint and body shop along with my 1955 2.4 Unitron and told him to match the color. After he completed the paint all I could say is wow!! It is by far the nicest OTA I have in finish it looks like my mint green lens Unitron but allot better paint!! #2 The John Pons built 1960 Jaegers 6" F15 built around a 60s 6” Unitron tail piece and a super focuser. I picked the 7" extruded Tube out at tube supply in Los Angles and had John’s favorite Powder coater in Riverside powder coat the Tube in satin white! After completing the ray-trace schematics John then installed the 7 custom spun aluminum baffles. Powder coating is a great way to go due to its tough finish that looks as good as the day it was done. It is not as fancy as the automotive paint job, but is a great OTA that should be good for 200 years or more. I have over the years painted several Harleys and custom bikes and one 1955 Chevy Belair. At that time I was set up to paint with PPG enamels and used fisheye reducers and other additives. Also I had built a paint booth in my garage with an air filtration system. Painting to this level takes more specialized equipment and paint than I need or am willing to set up for a telescope tube or two every couple of years. High end automotive paint or powder coating is the way to go for telescope tubes, but is a trade that only comes out to the highest quality if you do it every day. For myself being a Classic telescope fan, White or off white with Black colors seem to be what floats my boat although there may be a powder blue scope somewhere in my future. I will leave the pink and green tubes to Williams Optics and I might even paint that red fluorite 80mm I have Tak white one of these days. Thanks Clint (caveman) Whitman
-------------------- Clint&Debbie Whitman (aveman
1960s 6"F15 Jaegers-Unipons by John Pons on a Byers 812, 1947 4" F15 TINSLEY, 1965 10" F8 CAVE, 1950 5CM & 6.5CM Nippon Kogakus (the twins), 1960s UNITRONS a 152 restored a 160 numbered green lens original mint a 114 original 50s mint, 1950s UNITRON M100 100mm F15 OTA, WO 80mm Florite, ASTROPHYSICS 155 EDFS on LOSMANDY G11, a bunch of Tascos,Sears Mayflowers The list goes on Add infinitum.
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Telescopeman54
Vendor - Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC.
   
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 1541
Loc: New Hampshire
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Hey Hubert! Whacking the barrel on a tree or rock was a great way to make the M-16 blow up in Charlie's face!! Not that it was good for anything else!
Caveman! Put the scope in the BACK of my truck, PLEASE!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
sbf
-------------------- Stephen Forbes - President
Trapezium Telescopes & Services, LLC
61 Valhalla Farm Road
Hillsboro, NH 03244
Web: http://TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Email: Stephen.Forbes@TrapeziumTelescopes.com
Phone: 1.603.325.0619
6" f/15 Jaegers refractor on GOTO GEM
5.1" f/8 Burgess on CG-5 w/ iOptron GOTONOVA
102mm f/7 refractor on iOptron Mini Tower
1975 Celestron Orange Tube C8 on Equatorial Mini Tower
1978 RV-6 on iOptron Mini Tower
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jblaschke
super member
Reged: 03/07/08
Posts: 112
Loc: New Braunfels, Texas
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Folks, this thread has been inspiring. Seriously. So much so that I finally got off my duff and began a restoration of my old "6 Meade Newtonian. It's been banged up a lot over the years, but fortunately most of the damage is cosmetic. I spent the evening pulling the whole thing apart (even as the Hated Lakers did the same to my beloved Spurs) and now it's ready for me to begin sanding off the old paint tomorrow.
A question for you experienced restoration artists here: What do you do to revive the scuffed and dull aluminum (at least I assume they're aluminum. Stainless steel maybe?) C-clamps and trim pieces?
-------------------- Jayme Lynn Blaschke
6" Meade 645: f/5 wide-field Classic
Canon 400D unmodified
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bobbyt
member
Reged: 05/14/08
Posts: 92
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hi bob here, tell me about the paint used and the toy marvin the martian where can i get one .thanks 1 516 754 1763 call me
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 8330
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Everyone knows my story...but I found this image of my scope just after I got it back from Montana after being in storage after nearly 30 years. It was a rust bucket, and needed extreme care. I repainted every part, and remachined new parts for the hydraulic system for the pier. Added a bunch of upgrades(without altering the classicness).
This image and the one to follow is for all you *newbies* who are getting to restoring your classics.
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
A great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group.
www.vimeo.com/6014031
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 8330
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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And the finished project(well it will never be finished).
It took 4 years to restore.
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
A great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group.
www.vimeo.com/6014031
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RRavneberg
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 634
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Quote:
One of the hardest things to do when restoring a classic telescope is selecting a color to repaint the tube and trim. Essentially two routes can be taken - you can mimic the original colors as much as possible, or you can go in a completely different color(s) making the scope more an expression of your own personal tastes.
Over the years, I have tried to do both. Of late, however, I find myself leaning toward restoration of telescopes in the "spirit" of the original while giving the instrument a new lease on life.
My current 4.5" f/15 refractor was assembled from a pile of abandoned components from different telescopes with the addition of some DIY stuff to make it all fit together, so there was no "original" state to emulate. Therefore, I simply did what I thought would look nice, yet not violate the classic nature of the original instrument(s).
I could certainly have had the tube professionally painted or powder coated, but it never occurred to me at the time. So I settled for careful application of spray Rust-Oleum primer, metallic blue, and clear overcoat to get the effect I wanted. Cost was about $2.89/can for a total cost of around $25.
More images of the scope are at: Vintage Refractor Takes the Field
-------------------- Ron Ravneberg
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jblaschke
super member
Reged: 03/07/08
Posts: 112
Loc: New Braunfels, Texas
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Bob, the toy Marvin the Martian was sold in stores 7-8 years ago. It takes watch batteries and there are three buttons on the back of his head which, when pressed, cause him to say various lines from his Loony Tunes cartoons. He also came with an oversized gold zap gun. They're not sold new anymore, but you'll likely find one (or another Marvin toy) on Ebay.
Can't answer your paint questions. Sorry.
-------------------- Jayme Lynn Blaschke
6" Meade 645: f/5 wide-field Classic
Canon 400D unmodified
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Happy-Idiot
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/06/06
Posts: 2818
Loc: 3rd Rock
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Barry, Do you have a paint code for matching Brandon Sky Blue color?
-------------------- Brian
A small scope that gets used often is a better investment than a big scope that stays in the closet.
Unitrons, you spend more time looking at them than you do through them.
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1279
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Sorry for the late response. I have not been able to match the Brandon Blue. The closest I can come is by using Rust-Oleum "Harbor Blue" #7722. This paint is still available and I first used it about 15 years ago.
Barry Simon
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Doug76
Postmaster
  
Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 5551
Loc: SE Louisiana, future Texan
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Gonna start this one up again. I am currently in possession of the parts for a Towa 60/700 and a Carton 60/1000. I have already painted the Towa tube (Krylon Gloss White). I had it turning for 24 hours. I build fishing rods, and you have to spin the rod slowly while the epoxy on the guide threads cures. The motor I use is from Cabela's, and spins at about 4rpm. It has a lot of torque, so it had no trouble turning that little tube. With a slight alteration, the mandrel (homemade) was able to hold the tube from the inside firmly, and on the other end I built a spinning disc with inset screws with felt on their heads that could be backed out to contact the tube inside and grip it firmly enough to prevent slipping. So the tube was held on both ends, spinning at 4rpm for 24 straight hours, and the finish was perfect. Since I have been on the road since then, I expect the tube's paint will be cured completely when I return home. Can't wait to get it together, and do the same with the Carton. Doug
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drexelpbp
sage
   
Reged: 01/21/08
Posts: 268
Loc: Phoenixville,PA
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Interesting. Did you paint it while it was spinning?
-------------------- Orion 8" intelliscope
Celestron CF 8' SCT
Celestron 8SE
Celestron C80ED
Orion ST120
Orion ST80
Orion 120 f/8.3
Orion Skyview Pro Deluxe 90 f/11
Celesrton SP C102
Celestron SP 150N
Various Televue, Baader, Orion and other EPS
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 8330
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Quote:
Gonna start this one up again. I am currently in possession of the parts for a Towa 60/700 and a Carton 60/1000. I have already painted the Towa tube (Krylon Gloss White). I had it turning for 24 hours. I build fishing rods, and you have to spin the rod slowly while the epoxy on the guide threads cures. The motor I use is from Cabela's, and spins at about 4rpm. It has a lot of torque, so it had no trouble turning that little tube. With a slight alteration, the mandrel (homemade) was able to hold the tube from the inside firmly, and on the other end I built a spinning disc with inset screws with felt on their heads that could be backed out to contact the tube inside and grip it firmly enough to prevent slipping. So the tube was held on both ends, spinning at 4rpm for 24 straight hours, and the finish was perfect. Since I have been on the road since then, I expect the tube's paint will be cured completely when I return home. Can't wait to get it together, and do the same with the Carton.
Doug
That's the way to do it..... I rigged an old BBQ grill motor to rotate my 8' tube for my 6"f/15 when I repainted it.
I painted it while rotating, and let it dry rotating for a day as well.......
No runs, drips or errors. Images are posted on my website.
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
A great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group.
www.vimeo.com/6014031
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desertrefugee
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 1215
Loc: Arizona
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Anyone care to comment on how the technique(s) described here might vary when we're talking about a reflector sonotube that could use a re-spray?
Body filler vs. spackle vs. ???. Primer and/or Krylon OK? etc, etc.
Thanks.
-------------------- "Illimitable ocean, without bound, Without dimension, where length, breadth, and height, And time, and place are lost." - Milton
-Darrell
Reflectors - 76 to 305mm (f4.7 to f9.2)
Refractors - 50 to 120mm (f5 to f16.7)
Binoculars - 6x15 to 22x100
N. Phoenix, AZ
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jblaschke
super member
Reged: 03/07/08
Posts: 112
Loc: New Braunfels, Texas
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When I refurbished my 645 I used regular carpenter's wood putty to patch the gouges/blemishes in the tube. Now, those old Meades had a fiberlite tube which isn't exactly the same as sonotube, but it's not that far off. The putty dries quickly, doesn't shrink, is easy to sand and takes paint well. It shouldn't be any more complicated for you than that.
As for paint, lots of folks here use Krylon. Just make sure your primer is laid on thick enough. If I had to re-do my scope again, I'd pay a lot more attention to getting a more substantial layer of primer as even the slightest little tube blemish shows up when you apply the glossy stuff.
-------------------- Jayme Lynn Blaschke
6" Meade 645: f/5 wide-field Classic
Canon 400D unmodified
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desertrefugee
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 1215
Loc: Arizona
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And Jayme, I just went through your postings of the 645 restoration. Very nice restoration - and a nice job of making the process both imminently presentable and enjoyable to follow.
(Nice color too!)
-------------------- "Illimitable ocean, without bound, Without dimension, where length, breadth, and height, And time, and place are lost." - Milton
-Darrell
Reflectors - 76 to 305mm (f4.7 to f9.2)
Refractors - 50 to 120mm (f5 to f16.7)
Binoculars - 6x15 to 22x100
N. Phoenix, AZ
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chris_nelson
member
Reged: 09/18/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Pomona, CA.
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Post deleted by chris_nelson
-------------------- Chris
6" F/8 BOC Refracting telescope
24mm Brandon
1 1/4" Dakin Barlow
Edited by chris_nelson (02/20/09 12:49 PM)
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clintwhitman
Caveman
   
Reged: 01/01/07
Posts: 2429
Loc: ValVerde CA(SoEasyaCavemanCanD...
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Whats Johns scope got to do with painting refractor Tubes???
John never paints any thing it powder coating or the hyw!! And after the powdercoat its the best ever made! (aveman!!
Gota love Ponds Check out the Amazing full moon star party post!!
-------------------- Clint&Debbie Whitman (aveman
1960s 6"F15 Jaegers-Unipons by John Pons on a Byers 812, 1947 4" F15 TINSLEY, 1965 10" F8 CAVE, 1950 5CM & 6.5CM Nippon Kogakus (the twins), 1960s UNITRONS a 152 restored a 160 numbered green lens original mint a 114 original 50s mint, 1950s UNITRON M100 100mm F15 OTA, WO 80mm Florite, ASTROPHYSICS 155 EDFS on LOSMANDY G11, a bunch of Tascos,Sears Mayflowers The list goes on Add infinitum.
Edited by clintwhitman (02/19/09 02:03 AM)
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Lew Chilton
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/20/05
Posts: 1022
Loc: SoCal
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Quote:
Here is a fine example of a telescope built around a vintage Zeiss objective lens. Mr. John Pons of North Hollywood, California stands next to his 10"F/16 refracting telescope. The GEM mounting system was built by the Edward R. Byers CO. in Barsto, CA. some years ago. Mr. Pons previously had a 8" telescope upon the same mount.
Chris, I'm not sure whether I should be upset that you hijacked my picture off the other thread, "Amazing Full Moon Star Party," to use here without mentioning where you got it from. To use a picture as your own is not ethical and against Cloudynight.com policy.
-------------------- I don't get no respect, but my scopes do!
----------------------------------------------
1961 Swift 60mm model 839 (2); 2003 TV-102/GM-8; 1959 8" f/6 Treckerscope; 1959 8" f/7.4 Murray Scope; 1959 Fecker Celestar-4; 1978 4" Edmund Astroscan; c. 1986 4-inch Celestron-Vixen SP-C102; c. 1950 20X60 Saturn spotting scope; 1963 7X50 Nippon Kogaku binoculars; Unitron #114 alt-az mount (Swifty-tron)
Edited by Glassthrower (02/19/09 04:41 PM)
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tim53
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/17/04
Posts: 1447
Loc: Highland Park, CA
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Perhaps replacing the photo with a link?
(John does amazing work, by the way).
-Tim.
-------------------- "We`re just waiting looking skyward as the days come down.
Someone promised there`d be answers, if we stayed around."
-Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark, "The Romance of the Telescope"
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
   
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 16351
Loc: Kuiper Belt
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I'm sure Chris didn't mean any harm or disrespect, he was just admiring the mammoth Goto Kogaku. Of course, Lew is right about using images without permission. If Lew will grant his retroactive permission and Chris doesn't do it again, I think there is little or no harm done.
I had that same photo on my desktop for a while. But that is personal use and off the internet. 
Regards and clear skies,
MikeG
-------------------- Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, Tektites, Fossils, Minerals, Crystals, & Trinitite.
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Lew Chilton
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/20/05
Posts: 1022
Loc: SoCal
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Thanks, Mike. You said it better than I did.
-------------------- I don't get no respect, but my scopes do!
----------------------------------------------
1961 Swift 60mm model 839 (2); 2003 TV-102/GM-8; 1959 8" f/6 Treckerscope; 1959 8" f/7.4 Murray Scope; 1959 Fecker Celestar-4; 1978 4" Edmund Astroscan; c. 1986 4-inch Celestron-Vixen SP-C102; c. 1950 20X60 Saturn spotting scope; 1963 7X50 Nippon Kogaku binoculars; Unitron #114 alt-az mount (Swifty-tron)
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woodsman
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/12/08
Posts: 1072
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
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Hi Lew: That is one terrific picture. Is it ok to download it to my computer and perhaps send it out to people I know? I have a few friends that like to see those large scopes. BTW, have you ever had a chance to view through it?? Rich
-------------------- artisticwoods
C-14 Orange Tube, C-8, C-5, C-90 Astro Model, C8 Schmidt Camera 8" f1.5, C5.5 Schmidt Camera f1.65, SPI 42mm f/19 Refractor, Sears 90mm f/15.56 Ref, Sears 80mm f/15 Ref, Swift 77mm f/13 Model 831, Scope 60mm f/11.7, Sears 50mm f/12
Unitron Model 140 75mm/1200mm, Unitron model 128 60mm/900mm
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Lew Chilton
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/20/05
Posts: 1022
Loc: SoCal
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Rich, thanks for asking, I appreciate it. Sure, go ahead and share it.
Yeah, I did have a chance to look thru the 10-inch Zeiss at Jupiter, but we were seeing-limited on that particular night. Caveman's 50mm Nippon Kogaku wasn't nearly as sensitive to the seeing, so it was an outstanding performer and gave views of Jupiter that were very memorable.
Caveman had a chance to use the 10-inch Zeiss over a couple of nights, so could probably provide a better evaluation of it than me.
-------------------- I don't get no respect, but my scopes do!
----------------------------------------------
1961 Swift 60mm model 839 (2); 2003 TV-102/GM-8; 1959 8" f/6 Treckerscope; 1959 8" f/7.4 Murray Scope; 1959 Fecker Celestar-4; 1978 4" Edmund Astroscan; c. 1986 4-inch Celestron-Vixen SP-C102; c. 1950 20X60 Saturn spotting scope; 1963 7X50 Nippon Kogaku binoculars; Unitron #114 alt-az mount (Swifty-tron)
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woodsman
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/12/08
Posts: 1072
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
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Lew, I'll download that photo. Its truly impressive. Wow, too bad about the seeing with the 10 inch. A chance like that doesn't come along too often. So, how would you rate the Nippon Kogaku compared to your Swift 839? I would imagine that you'd have to be side by side. I know that Clint's certainly sold on them. They do seem to be well designed, but then so are the Swifts IMO.
-------------------- artisticwoods
C-14 Orange Tube, C-8, C-5, C-90 Astro Model, C8 Schmidt Camera 8" f1.5, C5.5 Schmidt Camera f1.65, SPI 42mm f/19 Refractor, Sears 90mm f/15.56 Ref, Sears 80mm f/15 Ref, Swift 77mm f/13 Model 831, Scope 60mm f/11.7, Sears 50mm f/12
Unitron Model 140 75mm/1200mm, Unitron model 128 60mm/900mm
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Lew Chilton
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/20/05
Posts: 1022
Loc: SoCal
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Rich,
Sounds like a shootout between the Swift and the Nippon Kogaku is in order. I've only looked thru Clint's 50mm Nippon Kogaku once at Jupiter (see the thread "Amazing Full Moon Star Party"). He has the 50mm and a 65mm. My Swift is 60mm. The test should be conducted at the same time and place with the same star diagonal and eyepieces.
From what I heard of the Nippon Kogaku's performance (mostly from Clint! ), I'd say that the Nippon Kogaku will edge out the Swift, although I hope I'm wrong.
I suggest we have the shootout next summer at Mt. Pinos, during one of those free-for-all star parties.
-------------------- I don't get no respect, but my scopes do!
----------------------------------------------
1961 Swift 60mm model 839 (2); 2003 TV-102/GM-8; 1959 8" f/6 Treckerscope; 1959 8" f/7.4 Murray Scope; 1959 Fecker Celestar-4; 1978 4" Edmund Astroscan; c. 1986 4-inch Celestron-Vixen SP-C102; c. 1950 20X60 Saturn spotting scope; 1963 7X50 Nippon Kogaku binoculars; Unitron #114 alt-az mount (Swifty-tron)
Edited by Lew Chilton (02/21/09 02:37 PM)
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Siderea
Astronomess
   
Reged: 11/21/05
Posts: 2066
Loc: Left Coast
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Now that would be and interesting Shootout! Lew, I think one time you mentioned that you had had the paint matched to touch up your 839. Do you have a brand, or color number? Was it brush on, or spray? Many thanks! Carol
-------------------- lc Carol
..."Then the blue above grows darker and a million stars erupt
From the places where they hide throughout the day
Into pictures in the heavens even we cannot corrupt
And the vastnesses of time can't wash away..."Jeff Green
60mm Telescope Club
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Lew Chilton
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/20/05
Posts: 1022
Loc: SoCal
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Hi Carol,
It's brush-on. I took a part of the Swift to the local Ace Hardware store and they color matched it on a computer. Really cool to watch! The smallest quantity they will mix is a quart. I haven't used it yet, but I'm sure it will be a very close match, if not identical.
-Lew
-------------------- I don't get no respect, but my scopes do!
----------------------------------------------
1961 Swift 60mm model 839 (2); 2003 TV-102/GM-8; 1959 8" f/6 Treckerscope; 1959 8" f/7.4 Murray Scope; 1959 Fecker Celestar-4; 1978 4" Edmund Astroscan; c. 1986 4-inch Celestron-Vixen SP-C102; c. 1950 20X60 Saturn spotting scope; 1963 7X50 Nippon Kogaku binoculars; Unitron #114 alt-az mount (Swifty-tron)
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woodsman
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/12/08
Posts: 1072
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
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Hi Lew, I'd like to be there for the shootout. I'd definitely put my Swift 831 up against his Nippon (might not be fair, the 831 is 77mm), 'cause it does beat out any other refractor I own in that smaller range. I'm going to have to check it against my 90mm Sears Royal Astro, that could be a close fight. After viewing through my Swift one afternoon and having my own shootout with 3 other fairly good refractors, I'm pretty convinced that the Swift is in a category by itself. Perhaps I'll find out tonight, its supposed to be clear and unseasonably warm nights the next few days, so my C14 might just have some smaller company out in the dark, dark skies of eastern Colorado...
-------------------- artisticwoods
C-14 Orange Tube, C-8, C-5, C-90 Astro Model, C8 Schmidt Camera 8" f1.5, C5.5 Schmidt Camera f1.65, SPI 42mm f/19 Refractor, Sears 90mm f/15.56 Ref, Sears 80mm f/15 Ref, Swift 77mm f/13 Model 831, Scope 60mm f/11.7, Sears 50mm f/12
Unitron Model 140 75mm/1200mm, Unitron model 128 60mm/900mm
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astronomy-shoppe.com
Vendor (astronomy-shoppe.com)
Reged: 06/16/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Plaistow, NH
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Beautiful job on all of the restorations Barry.. Home depot and Walmart have a computer to match paint. I haven't try'd them yet, the last Unitron we did was " Ford White" base and then mixed from there.. I agree that it is very difficult to match the original paint..
Tony C
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KHH
newbie
Reged: 04/30/09
Posts: 1
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Hello! I am new to this forum. I have been given a telescope by an old friend quite a few years back. I pretty much took it for junk until I recently saw it was a Sears Discoverer Model #34550. I know that Sears stuff is sometimes valuable. It has a few dings that I would like to get repaired. So my questions are; 1) Is it worth anything 2)Does any one repair these any more?
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Avatar
sage
   
Reged: 05/27/06
Posts: 232
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I've got question for anyone who has used Krylon enamel. If applied correctly, according to temperature, relative humidity conditions, and if timing between coats of enamel is done more or less according to directions printed on the spray can (all top coating done within 1 hour), what should be the expected type of finish with this product?
Yesterday I primed my dewshield with Krylon primer, three coats of gray primer with about ~25 or so minutes between each. After the last primer coat had dried for about 40 minutes, I began top coating. I actually ended up applying four coats of gloss white enamel to cover sufficiently. Each top coat had only about 2, maybe 3 minutes between them. I was shaking the spray can often. I ended up with no running or sagging.
My question is this: What should I expect with Krylon enamel regarding the type of finish? When I look at the dewshield from a short distance it looks shiney. However, when I get quite close, with my glasses on, the finish, in the light, appears like many tiny, even bumps. The top coat is very evenly applied, just not nearly as smooth as professional. Now, is this because of my fault, did I take too much time between top coats? Is this just the way Krylon product is? I didn't get a "wrinkle", nothing like that, just not a real smooth finish.
Thanks, Bruce
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Siderea
Astronomess
   
Reged: 11/21/05
Posts: 2066
Loc: Left Coast
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Hi Bruce I've had good luck touching between coats with a very fine wet/dry sand paper, then wiping down with a tack cloth. Let dry for a few minutes, then apply the next coat. Finish with a couple coats clear coat. For smaller parts and tubes, an hour baking in the oven, at about 175-200, hanging on wires from the top grate works really well. I preheat the oven past 200, turn back down and set the parts in. Switch the "Timed bake" to turn the oven off in an hour. That way it rarely goes back on, and it can be let to cool on its own. Don't forget to turn on the fan to vent the house .The finish is hard, smooth and immediately usable. I have the advantage of kitchen diva, so I clean the oven after use and don't have to ask anyone's permision. Sorry if this sounds like a recipe... I just listed one for porkchops on another forum...
-------------------- lc Carol
..."Then the blue above grows darker and a million stars erupt
From the places where they hide throughout the day
Into pictures in the heavens even we cannot corrupt
And the vastnesses of time can't wash away..."Jeff Green
60mm Telescope Club
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Avatar
sage
   
Reged: 05/27/06
Posts: 232
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Carol,
Were you using enamel for this? If so, then you must have had to let each enamel coat dry for quite some time before sanding?
Did you actually "wet" sand? 400 grit, or finer?
I have the dewshield out in the sun today (already dry to touch). In my discouraging mood, I had a spell of "oh, go ahead, what do you have to lose", and sponged water over the dewshield. I figured that perhaps the finish would even out better - (water intensifies sun??!!). Now, as I looked at the wet surface, I noticed that the finish looked more like smooth professional surface (~like the inside surface of a conch shell). So, is THIS the way enamelled tubes looks so smooth? By using a clear coat (~like water) over top coat color? Is it that enamel, by itself without a clear coat, doesn't have an absolutely glassy surface finish?
I painted just yesterday. According to the directions on the spary can, if additional coats aren't done within 1 hour, then you have to wait 5 days. So,,,I can apply a clear coat directly over this enamel, no prep required, in 5 days?
As for oven baking, it won't work for me. Scope in question is a long focus 4 inch.
Thanks, Bruce
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tim53
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/17/04
Posts: 1447
Loc: Highland Park, CA
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Bruce:
It sounds like your coats are going on a bit "dry". Ideally, you'll lay the stuff on just short of running or sagging, but that's obviously not a fun place to be when it actually does run.
I used Rustoleum's comparable chemistry paint on my son's electric guitar body this past weekend, and I found it very difficult not to "orange peel" the finish. It was hot and sunny on Saturday, so when we top-coated it with clear on Sunday we did it in the morning and in the shade of the house. The finish came out great, even smoothing out much of the orange peel of the color coat underneath.
-Tim.
-------------------- "We`re just waiting looking skyward as the days come down.
Someone promised there`d be answers, if we stayed around."
-Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark, "The Romance of the Telescope"
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Siderea
Astronomess
   
Reged: 11/21/05
Posts: 2066
Loc: Left Coast
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Hi Bruce If you didn't put on the clear coat, its probably best to wait the 5 days. I use enamel and wait almost an hour between coats, then very lightly buff with 400 grit or finer just to smooth it out, then wipe with tack cloth. 3 coats is usually fine . 2 coat of clear coat have not seemed to require sanding between. I just sand, wipe, spray, hang up and set the timer to go to something else for an hour. If you can't bake it, its been advised to let the scope parts cure for a month or so before assembly and mounting. I have a little 50mm with mooshed paint under the mount brackets to attest to that.
-------------------- lc Carol
..."Then the blue above grows darker and a million stars erupt
From the places where they hide throughout the day
Into pictures in the heavens even we cannot corrupt
And the vastnesses of time can't wash away..."Jeff Green
60mm Telescope Club
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Avatar
sage
   
Reged: 05/27/06
Posts: 232
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Tim,
So the answer to my situation probably isn't my painting technique. Rather, I should finish it with a clear coat? Normally, even the best applied enamel isn't as smooth as when using a clear coat?
Bruce
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Avatar
sage
   
Reged: 05/27/06
Posts: 232
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Carol,
So,,in ~5 days or so I should fine sand the existing white enamel surface, run a tak rag over it, make sure it's dry, then apply two coats of clear? My main question here is, I need to sand the existing enamel surface before applying the clear?
Thanks again, Bruce
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tim53
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/17/04
Posts: 1447
Loc: Highland Park, CA
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Quote:
Tim,
So the answer to my situation probably isn't my painting technique. Rather, I should finish it with a clear coat? Normally, even the best applied enamel isn't as smooth as when using a clear coat?
Bruce
I don't think so. In my case I think I would have gotten smooth results whether I sprayed color or clear on Sunday morning (in the shade, cooler morning). This might actually be the first time I used a clear coat for anything that wasn't lacquer.
-Tim.
-------------------- "We`re just waiting looking skyward as the days come down.
Someone promised there`d be answers, if we stayed around."
-Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark, "The Romance of the Telescope"
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Avatar
sage
   
Reged: 05/27/06
Posts: 232
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Tim,
Actually, I painted on a fairly cool day in the garage.
I've been using all Krylon products, so I looked up clear coats that they sell. I think I've got the right one. It's spray acrylic crystal clear gloss. I should use a gloss for the clear coat?
Bruce
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Siderea
Astronomess
   
Reged: 11/21/05
Posts: 2066
Loc: Left Coast
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Sounds like it will turn out very nice, Bruce. The clear coat does sort of fill in and even things out. Please post pics when you have it done!
-------------------- lc Carol
..."Then the blue above grows darker and a million stars erupt
From the places where they hide throughout the day
Into pictures in the heavens even we cannot corrupt
And the vastnesses of time can't wash away..."Jeff Green
60mm Telescope Club
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tim53
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/17/04
Posts: 1447
Loc: Highland Park, CA
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Hi Bruce:
One of the coats I tried on my son's guitar I shot in the garage. It was really hard to see how I was doing because of the light from outside. Working in the shade of the house was much easier for me.
I think Carol's right, too. The clear seems to flow out better than the colors do.
-Tim.
-------------------- "We`re just waiting looking skyward as the days come down.
Someone promised there`d be answers, if we stayed around."
-Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark, "The Romance of the Telescope"
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 8330
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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The chemistry of the paint can be an issue if application instructions are not followed.
You can re-over coat most paints after the initial coat is dry to the touch...within 10min.
If you apply light *dust* coats of gloss enamel..you will not achieve the *gloss* you're looking for. As mentioned earlier..it is nearly at the point of runs that you get the nice shine...if the paint's chemical shine is what you're after. I rotate my tubes to prevent any runs, drips, errors... 
If you wait to reapply paint..you should wait a week or two before reapplying...because the solvents used to propel the paint can act as a desolving solvent on the existing application...and result in ripples or *crinckles*.
Clear coat is designed to *fill* micro ripples and *stipples*. I recommend light sanding with a green *Scotts* pad between coats. What this does is not remove paint material but knock down micro bubble edges and small raised areas. It also acts to prepare the surface for a mechanical bond to the new coat.
I use auto clear coats...because of their hardness and shear shine. Of course I apply several light coats and I do not sand between the second to the last coat of the clear coat.
Crinkles appear when the paint is not sufficiantly bonded to the subsequent layer and the new applications transport solvents act to loosen the pre-cured layer.
I have let my 12" 14ft tube stand/rest painted for two weeks(the weather has played a role). When it cleares..I will take it out of the shop..mount it on its paint roller system...lightly sand it with green Scotts pads and then apply the final clear coats.
That's how I do it and I have lots of experience painting automobiles.
There are plenty of techniques to doing it...choose the one that works best for you and good luck.
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
A great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group.
www.vimeo.com/6014031
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upfyrman
newbie
Reged: 05/28/09
Posts: 2
Loc: Port Orchard, WA
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I'm new to this forum and have read a lot of what is great information. I still own my Meade 826 8" Newtonian that I purchased in 1979. It has been retired for some time now and I may restore it someday. A lot of good ideas here, thanks.
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Starlighter
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 08/03/07
Posts: 4494
Loc: Sunny California
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Quote:
Jim,
Nice avatar. Funny how a fair number of people who are amateur astronomers are also model railroaders. Here is part of my collection, and Espee (Southern Pacific) is a major player in my collection.
Barry Simon
Funny how that is. My Lionel S-1 Duplex:
-------------------- Celestron C4-R 102mm achromat
Celeston Nexstar 6SE SCT
Meade 80mm APO Triplet
Televue NP-101
Televue TV-85
Vixen A70Lf
Vixen A80Mf
William Optics 66mm Zenithstar Patriot
Celestron CG4 EQ mount
Orion Skyview Pro AZ mount
Vixen Portamount
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Bob Myler
sage
   
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 224
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How many wheels on that sucker?
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Avatar
sage
   
Reged: 05/27/06
Posts: 232
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It's been almost three weeks since I painted (with enamel) scope tube and dewshield. I've been thinking of possibly light wet sanding and clearcoating two coats of acrylic clear gloss. I haven't clear coated yet because the weather has been dark and wet for a long time now.
I am planning on not reasembling scope until one month has passed (soon approaching). If I were to clear coat now, would I have to wait another month, from the time of applying clear, to reassemble scope? Or, Because enamel itself has cured fully, and because clear is acrylic, should I be able to use scope after, say a week or so?
Thanks, Bruce
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Markoscope
newbie
Reged: 08/14/09
Posts: 1
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Hey Bob,
Did you build your own shelves for your trains? Great collection. I have a bunch of "N" scales but no photos.
Mark
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William Beverly
stranger
Reged: 12/26/08
Posts: 2
Loc: East Central Wisconsin
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I have a brass mogey telescope, 46" to 50" long and 3 1/2" in diameter. I am a novice. Is there somewhere in Wisconsin I can take it to check it over - - that I can trust? Bill
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