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Equipment Discussions >> Classic Telescopes

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Datapanic
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Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
A Mystery Scope!
      #3591488 - 01/29/10 01:09 PM Attachment (658 downloads)

I picked this one up locally this morning. It is an 8" f/8 with fiberglass tube, a nice mount and a Cave stand. It had a label on the mount, but it's gone now and I'm not sure what it is but it is definitely interesting!

Edit: I changed the photo to show the complete telescope

Edited by Datapanic (01/29/10 10:22 PM)


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591494 - 01/29/10 01:11 PM Attachment (257 downloads)

The mirror has been stored inside and has its own box with mounts inside it to keep it safe.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591498 - 01/29/10 01:13 PM Attachment (236 downloads)

The mirror itself has no side markings, but the surface is sweet with no scratches and very good condition.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591502 - 01/29/10 01:14 PM Attachment (230 downloads)

The back of the mirror has "Clark" written in pencil as well as focal length info and a sticker from Morvac Optical Coating of Signal Hill, California.

Edited by Datapanic (01/29/10 04:33 PM)


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591511 - 01/29/10 01:17 PM Attachment (265 downloads)

The cell is a 9-point suspension work of art. The mirror is secured by a cork-lined ring with set screws and then a ring (not shown) screws on top of the mirror to secure it in place. There is no indication of who made it.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591518 - 01/29/10 01:19 PM Attachment (241 downloads)

The OTA is interesting, there is no viewfinder nor any holes to indicate one was every installed! The focuser is a huge 1.25" with motor controlled focus.

The end rings have three ears to attach the tube covers and the mirror and its cell with nice knobs. The second ring from the top secures the spider and secondary.

The tube is made out of fiberglass.

Edited by Datapanic (01/29/10 01:21 PM)


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actionhac
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591524 - 01/29/10 01:22 PM

Looks like the label just went missing. Go over the site with a magnifier? trunk of you car? freeway?

Look at the taper on that mirror and the beautiful edge.

Robert


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591526 - 01/29/10 01:23 PM Attachment (201 downloads)

The tube has rotating rings, which seem a little nicer than the Cave design. It looks like there are teflon blocks instead of 3/8" rods between the inner and outer rings. There are 6 spacer bars as well.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: actionhac]
      #3591530 - 01/29/10 01:24 PM

It's something else! More pics coming

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591538 - 01/29/10 01:27 PM Attachment (197 downloads)

The stand itself is definitely Cave, with some heavy duty 5/8" levelers where the caster wheels would go. Unfortunately, 2 of the knobs are missing.

Edited by Datapanic (01/29/10 04:37 PM)


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Mike Conley
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591545 - 01/29/10 01:31 PM

Wow, that looks great. Can't help you with identification but Congrats on the find.

Mike


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591546 - 01/29/10 01:31 PM Attachment (184 downloads)

A polar alignment scope is mounted to the RA housing. It is a 50mm objective with an Astrola 26mm Kellner that has an illuminated reticule.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591556 - 01/29/10 01:34 PM Attachment (157 downloads)

A pair of Hurst motors drive the slow motion control on both axis. Pack rats got to the wiring and cut some so I will need to figure out what goes where.

Edited by Datapanic (01/29/10 04:38 PM)


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591561 - 01/29/10 01:38 PM Attachment (180 downloads)

The circles have illuminated magnifiers and you can also see some status lights as well as an electrical junction board. Below the status lights is a plug for some control box that is not present. The shaft housing show very nice welds.

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tim53
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591578 - 01/29/10 01:43 PM

Now THAT puppy is MUCH BETTER than if it had turned out to be a Meade RG!

I could be way off here, but it looks a little tiny bit more refined than a homebuilt made from components from elsewhere. Translated into English: It looks like it was made by some limited-production outfit for someone in particular.

Do you know who the original owner was???

And now... ...and the more I cogitate and compare, the more goosebumpy I get for you:

...I bet it's an early Schaefer, or a scope based on his designs to some degree.

Check out the pics on this page for comparison:

Bill Schaefer Project

This is cool!

-Tim.


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591584 - 01/29/10 01:45 PM Attachment (187 downloads)

It also came with a nice selection of accessories. First, there is a 32mm, 24mm and 8mm EFL Brandon Vernonscope set of eyepieces with their metal storage cases. An Astrola 6mm Triplane without the base, a "30x" 1.25" with a "BL" mark inside a triangle, what looks like a Cave barlow, an older brass ocular with double crosshairs, a polarizing filter and a soft brush in a brass tube.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591591 - 01/29/10 01:47 PM Attachment (186 downloads)

Closeup of the Brandons...

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reddog15
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Reged: 11/09/09

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591768 - 01/29/10 02:59 PM

Quote:

Closeup of the Brandons...


Those EPs are a find unto their own

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: tim53]
      #3591770 - 01/29/10 02:59 PM Attachment (124 downloads)

Quote:

Now THAT puppy is MUCH BETTER than if it had turned out to be a Meade RG!




Heh! I was thinking last night, what if it's another Cave! Well, I guess that would be better than a Meade, but it would be nice if it were a Meade, that would be something different. This is definitely different!

Quote:

I could be way off here, but it looks a little tiny bit more refined than a homebuilt made from components from elsewhere. Translated into English: It looks like it was made by some limited-production outfit for someone in particular.




I don't think this is homebuilt at all. The machining is very professional and all the knobs and even the counterweight have cross-hatched grips cut into them. It is unusual there there is no finder or guidescope mounted on the OTA. There are 4 bolt holes on either side of the focuser and another pair on the front side of the upper rotating ring that could have mounted something.

Quote:

Do you know who the original owner was???




The seller sold this to me for the original owner. Unfortunately, she is out of town for the weekend, but I think I can get more info when she comes back. She did mention that the owner was in his 70's and that another astronomy friend of the owner might go in shock if he sees this scope here on Cloudy Nights!

Quote:

And now... ...and the more I cogitate and compare, the more goosebumpy I get for you:

...I bet it's an early Schaefer, or a scope based on his designs to some degree.

Check out the pics on this page for comparison:

Bill Schaefer Project

This is cool!




I feel the goosebumps! I looked at several Schaefer telescope pictures and it does look very much like them. I sure wish that label wasn't missing! It was nowhere to be found when I picked it up.

But after looking closer at it, I did find some dates! I popped off the covers of the Hurst motors and found 1964 and 1965 stamped on the windings!


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591796 - 01/29/10 03:12 PM Attachment (163 downloads)

Here's a closeup of the latitude adjustment knob and workings.

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tim53
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591800 - 01/29/10 03:15 PM

Hm...

If the scope were built in the mid 60's, I doubt it's a Schaefer. He would have been using patterns well before that time.

What makes me curious, though, is the way the primary is stored in a box separate from the rest of the scope when not in use, the use of the Cave pier and legs (and even the eyepiece holder on the pier), the way the mount attaches to the pier via a machined flange rather than screws through the pier into the pier cap, and the focuser (though it's bigger than the Schaefers, it's base is machined - does it rotate?).

I was going to suggest the finder may have been attached to the rotating rings, but I see you've already suspected such.

It'll be interesting to hear what you learn when you contact the original owner!

-Tim.


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mikey cee
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591803 - 01/29/10 03:17 PM

Why would someone who was a commercial telescope builder use a refractor/cassegrain rack and pinion focuser? Looks like a lot more work involved to mount it but then I'm just a refractor freak. Mike

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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591807 - 01/29/10 03:17 PM

well it definitely looks like one of Bills

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3591851 - 01/29/10 03:39 PM Attachment (111 downloads)

Here's a pic of the focuser hole, a ring attaches it to the base and the focuser can be rotated if the ring is loosened up a little.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591862 - 01/29/10 03:44 PM Attachment (99 downloads)

The spider and secondary holder. The secondary looks like it's a 2.1".

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Datapanic
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Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3591872 - 01/29/10 03:48 PM Attachment (97 downloads)

Here is how the mirror cell attaches to the tube. The mirror and floats are not mounted in the cell.

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clintwhitman
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Reged: 01/01/07

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3592078 - 01/29/10 05:22 PM

Hey Dan,,,, My Guess is what you found is a master piece ATM telescope WOW!!! This scope could be unbelievable wonderful,,,,, You just won the Caveman award!! This is a hybrid with a bunch of really well made parts WOW. I don’t recognize any elements but the legs on the pier, the rest are either from the more obscure makers like Scopetronics or home built by a guy like Bob Burns.... Really cool find. My second favorite this year so far!!!! Congratulations and Kudos to you I hope you have the resources to put her where she belongs..... The mirror has the color and look of a Cave mirror, Maybe Beck or Alika made it on the side for a guy named Clark Man look at the iluminated maginfiers on the setting circles Man thats cool,,,,, Darn aircraft mechanics!!!!

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #3592108 - 01/29/10 05:52 PM

Woot! I got a Caveman award!!!

I kinda feel like I've seen this scope before, maybe in an old Sky & Telescope Gleanings for ATM's article. The focuser looks familiar somehow. I hope somebody here can recognize it.

Not that I'm obsessed with knobs, but every single knob from the legs to mount to the tube and focuser match. I count 23 of them - there should be 25 but the levels are missing two.

I can rebuild it

The mirror has beveled edges on the top and bottom as well as the fine ground underside that sure does make it look like a Cave mirror, less any side markings.


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3592114 - 01/29/10 05:54 PM Attachment (152 downloads)

Here is the Before Picture...

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tim53
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3592167 - 01/29/10 06:32 PM

I *LIKE* it!

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actionhac
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3592176 - 01/29/10 06:41 PM

That's one fine scope. I agree with Clint, ATM from an Aircraft machine shop man. Too big for a "lunch box special" though.

Perfect example of someone just not satisfied with what money can buy.

Robert


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: actionhac]
      #3592234 - 01/29/10 07:16 PM

Dang Dan you got the Cave man swinging his club Real nice dude, real nice

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: actionhac]
      #3592339 - 01/29/10 08:25 PM Attachment (77 downloads)

Quote:

That's one fine scope. I agree with Clint, ATM from an Aircraft machine shop man. Too big for a "lunch box special" though.

Perfect example of someone just not satisfied with what money can buy.

Robert




It may be, I found aircraft spec fasteners that hold the spacer bars on the rotating rings.


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actionhac
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3592418 - 01/29/10 09:23 PM

When I first saw your post I did a quick search and found Schaefer, I have a link in my post "Schaefer Telescopes" I had never seen such workmanship.

Yours does have a close resemblance but yours lacks castings, except for the focuser, possibly the cell, the saddle and the rotating rings.

I still wonder if it could be a 1970's Schaefer. By this time they were using CNC machines like today. This actually is more economical than the old casting process.

Overall I think it's just to good to be a commercial scope, unless a very low production custom.

Robert


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: actionhac]
      #3592441 - 01/29/10 09:47 PM Attachment (103 downloads)

I looked at the Schaefer Telescopes link as well and although it could be one, I don't think it is unless it was a special build. The base of the Schaefer mounts where the RA shaft attaches to the head of the mount is welded and has a strength member on either side while the head on this one seems to be bolted on from underneath and there is no strength member. The mount is definitely sturdy!

Edit to add: I just wonder what the heck was on that label!

Edited by Datapanic (01/29/10 09:52 PM)


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3592448 - 01/29/10 09:51 PM Attachment (84 downloads)

Even the ring that mounts the focuser to its base and the ring that goes over the mirror have the crosshatch cuts in them just like the knobs.

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mikey cee
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3592475 - 01/29/10 10:20 PM

Here's a wild guess....Is the plate inside the mirror box behind the felt? Mike

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: mikey cee]
      #3592518 - 01/29/10 10:55 PM

Mike, I looked all over and so far the only thing is "Clark" written on the back of the mirror. The mount and tube were in the back of an old Ford pickup for I don't know how long with a bunch of other stuff covered with a tarp and under a carport, so maybe it and the two missing leveling knobs are still there. I asked the seller to please take a look, maybe it's still there. Not knowing who made it or anything about it really drives me nuts and I will do my best to get all the history I can about it.

From the short time I talked with the seller, the picture I get is that the person who made/owned this telescope passed away, and the seller is a friend of the widow and helped to sell the telescope since it was not being used anymore. The seller also indicated that a friend of the person who made/owned this scope might be upset if it were sold. I reassured the seller that this telescope will be brought back to its original condition and that it will be chronicled here, of course

Edited by Datapanic (01/29/10 10:57 PM)


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actionhac
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3592650 - 01/30/10 12:37 AM

One thing you could try is see if Morvac Optical Coating is still in around and have them check the records for Clark.

Also remove the secondary mirror to see if anything on the back of it.

Robert


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: actionhac]
      #3593697 - 01/30/10 03:20 PM

It looks like Morvac Optical Coating is not in business anymore. I'll take a look at the secondary but if anything, it will say "Clark" on it The fasteners on the secondary housing are rusted and I want to be careful taking it apart.

I already finished taking the mount apart. Interesting notes with photo goodness later today! Does Arizona have Black Widows?


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rfic1
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3593903 - 01/30/10 05:03 PM

Perhaps the original owner ground and figured the mirror himself. He obviously was a skilled machinist and possible did the mirror as well..I suspect at some point one of the owners last name was Clark. Perhaps it was labeled on the mirror when it was sent for coating for for identification reasons. Do you think those are the original coatings?

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: rfic1]
      #3593957 - 01/30/10 05:28 PM

I haven't found out any more information, but hopefully will later next week. If the mirror is from the same time as the motors (64/65) then I don't think those are the original coatings, but the box for the mirror is virtually air tight so it could be.

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desertrefugee
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3593963 - 01/30/10 05:29 PM

Arizona is loaded with Black Widows.

Ask me how I know.

(I'd much rather see your pictures, though).


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reddog15
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Reged: 11/09/09

Loc: Wyoming
Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3593965 - 01/30/10 05:30 PM

Waiting on the pics Black widows like it dark and moist I believe

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3593987 - 01/30/10 05:39 PM Attachment (106 downloads)

I started on the mount this morning. First to do is take off the motors and all the wiring. After I removed the nice illuminated Dec circle light housing, I found what was in store for me...

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tim53
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3593997 - 01/30/10 05:42 PM

Protein drive!

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594002 - 01/30/10 05:44 PM Attachment (96 downloads)

Rust like this just makes me want to ask why, why, why!? This is worse than what was on the Cave 8" Model B's Dec shaft.

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akman1955
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594007 - 01/30/10 05:45 PM

sandblast..that will take care of it..john

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594015 - 01/30/10 05:49 PM Attachment (97 downloads)

This nice outafocus shot is of the Dec worm gear. There is a shim on the block (seen in line with the Dec circle indexes) that prevents it from contacting the rest of the gear assembly and the knob is used for slow motion instead. The worm gear is obviously steel, but the gears are brass and the coupler for the knob is rusted out steel. When it comes time to service this area, maybe I can figure out how it should work.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: akman1955]
      #3594018 - 01/30/10 05:50 PM

Quote:

sandblast..that will take care of it..john


I think so - there's just too much rust there to sand it off. The Cave Legs could use a sand blasting as well.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594024 - 01/30/10 05:53 PM Attachment (92 downloads)

This is the back of the RA worm gear block and motor assembly. 3 shims adjust the pressure against the ring gear. Two pins keep them in place. The two allen head bolts are in backwards just to keep the shims from falling off.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594033 - 01/30/10 05:56 PM Attachment (80 downloads)

Here is the RA ring gear, the two inside holes are for the pins that hold the shims in place and the outside holes are for the allen head bolts that mount the assembly in place. It's pretty clean in here but the ring gear wont budge.

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tim53
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: akman1955]
      #3594037 - 01/30/10 05:58 PM

Where does anyone get enough water in Tucson to rust anything?

-Tim.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594043 - 01/30/10 06:00 PM Attachment (70 downloads)

The Dec ring gear was a little more grungy. I also noticed that the shim pins were in the housing instead of the block, so maybe the RA shim pins can be the same - makes more sense if the shims are on the base and then the block is installed.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: tim53]
      #3594045 - 01/30/10 06:02 PM

Quote:

Where does anyone get enough water in Tucson to rust anything?

-Tim.




It's been a wet winter this year, but normally, we just get the monsoon season in the summer and that's it. I think this telescope may have spent some time up in the mountains where it rains more often.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594064 - 01/30/10 06:12 PM Attachment (84 downloads)

And here are the motors and wiring all off the mount! The shims are taped to the worm blocks so they wont get lost.

From left to right, the 3 indicator lights were not connected to anything at all (you're looking at the underside). The big orange capacitor is for the synchronous motor to operate in both directions, the RA and Dec motor and gear assemblies. Both motors are Hurst 2 RPM 120v AC. Finally, the electrical junction block with another round capacitor and the RA illuminated reticule. The blue wires on the top right go to one of the light bulbs that plug into the back of the reticules.

The wiring is not that complicated - two motors and two lights. I will probably redo this area a little to make it look neat by putting everything in a Radio Shack project box like I did on the Cave mount. The wiring is old and cracked with lots of chew marks from pack rats.


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594075 - 01/30/10 06:16 PM

Looks like fun, you definitely got one of a kind and your work cut out for you,and like I said 1st "looks like fun"

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594078 - 01/30/10 06:17 PM Attachment (72 downloads)

Once the shell clamp for the polar alignment scope was loosened up, it slide right off. The knob was very rusty, but it was going into aluminum, so it was no big deal to budge it loose.

On the underside, there is what looks like a AA battery mount. This DC voltage is probably for the illuminated reticule. The wiring also goes to a jack that was for something. There is another jack on that junction board and also one on the motor driven focuser block.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594118 - 01/30/10 06:36 PM Attachment (66 downloads)

Now that everything is off the RA and Dec housings, the Dec shaft is ready to come out. I was concerned that the rust on the Dec shaft would need to be cleaned up before sliding it out, but it turns out the diameter below the retainer ring (which is threaded on and secured with a bolt) is smaller than the upper part of the shaft, so it's going to slide up and out without any trouble hitting the white plastic sleeve bearing.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594124 - 01/30/10 06:40 PM Attachment (84 downloads)

And out it goes! The area of the shaft sealed from the elements is in good shape. This is a hollow shaft with 1" ID and 1.75" OD.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3594127 - 01/30/10 06:41 PM

Quote:

Looks like fun, you definitely got one of a kind and your work cut out for you,and like I said 1st "looks like fun"




It's fun, but the funner part is after everything is cleaned up, painted, lubed and ready to be put back together again. The not-fun part is rust and old paint removal.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594132 - 01/30/10 06:43 PM

start sandblasting..greatjob. .john

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594140 - 01/30/10 06:46 PM Attachment (78 downloads)

Teflon (not sure what kinda) plastic sleeve bearings are used on the Dec shaft. I was kind of surprised because I thought roller bearings like on the Cave mounts would be much better, but this mount is very sturdy anyway.

The dried out rusty goo on the aluminum parts will clean up easy and then it's just a lot of polishing.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594148 - 01/30/10 06:53 PM Attachment (78 downloads)

The RA shaft is also secured with a threaded retainer ring. Once removed, I find a bushing pressed into the shaft that I gently worked off. On the other end was another bushing as well, but once the bottom one was off, the shaft was able to be removed quite easily.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594153 - 01/30/10 06:57 PM Attachment (72 downloads)

Here's a closeup of the RA sleeve bearing (same on both ends). They are only about 1/2" long, but seem to work well.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594157 - 01/30/10 07:01 PM Attachment (66 downloads)

The RA shaft is in very good shape. The ring gear wont budge though. All I'm doing today is getting the major pieces off and then will start on those one at a time. Kind of like assessing what needs to be done before getting real serious

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594164 - 01/30/10 07:05 PM Attachment (75 downloads)

The three knobs that hold the base to the pier cap are removed. There are three "dogs" (I guess their dogs, might be some other name for them) that slide inside the groove to allow the entire mount to be rotated in azimuth. During install, these parts would be attached to the knobs on the underside of the base and then lined up to where the three holes are so that they can be seated and turned into the slots.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594169 - 01/30/10 07:08 PM Attachment (73 downloads)

The three bolts that hold the cap to the column are removed, along with the eyepiece holder, and look what I found! I though it was dead, it wasn't, but is now!

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594173 - 01/30/10 07:10 PM Attachment (87 downloads)

Fortunately, this one was already dead, neighbor of the spider.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594177 - 01/30/10 07:13 PM Attachment (70 downloads)

Here's a closeup of the latitude adjustment assembly. It doesn't turn at all, due to some rusted collars near the knob end.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594182 - 01/30/10 07:14 PM

That's all for today! The stand column and legs are apart, and there's a couple things interesting about them, but I'll save that for tomorrow.

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akman1955
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594184 - 01/30/10 07:15 PM

my god..glad i dont have these in alaska...had too chase cow moose and two calfs out of yard this morning too let dogs out..john

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594273 - 01/30/10 08:03 PM Attachment (87 downloads)

The maker was obviously familiar with what was available on the amateur telescope market and thought he could do better than what was then available. He seems to have thought out every detail of the mounting and tube assembly - and succeeded in spades!

The mirror blank was obviously made by Corning Glass Works of New York. (My two 8-inch mirrors, one by Coast Instrument and one by Cave, are Corning glass that were both aluminized by Panchro, but neither had their backs ground flat like yours.)

I lived within a 30-minute bicycle ride of Signal Hill, Calif. from 1955 to 1960, was a rabid amateur astronomer and telescope maker but never heard of Morvac. The only places that I ever knew of that did aluminizing for telescope mirrors in Southern California in those days were Panchro and Keim.

There was a Nye Optical Co. on Cherry Ave. on Signal Hill, which I visited a number of times for mirror making supplies. (I donated a 1958 Nye catalog to Bob Provin for his Classic Telescopes and Catalogs website. Here's a link to it. On page 7, it mentions that aluminizing service was furnished, but I think they used Panchro and/or Keim, the same that nearby Cave and Coast Instrument used.)

http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/classics/nye/nye58.pdf

Perhaps the maker of your 8-inch had professional connections to Morvac on Signal Hill, which may have only done optical coatings for industry. Maybe they aluminized this mirror as a favor or as a "G-Job."

Dan, so glad you're the one who found this scope. In your hands, it'll be brought back to better than new condition. Looking forward to the progress reports!

Lew

P.S. Oh, by the way, here's a picture of my Corning Glass Works 3-inch ashtray that was made as a sourvenir to commemmorate the successful pouring of the 200" Palomar Pyrex blank. I found it on the Bay a few years ago.

Edited by Lew Chilton (01/30/10 08:06 PM)


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The_Vagabond
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594292 - 01/30/10 08:16 PM

Quote:

Fortunately, this one was already dead, neighbor of the spider.



Not dead; that's a skin. Little fella probably lived a bit longer.
Also, no signs of black widows... yet. You need to look for sizeable egg sacs that should be fairly smooth, between 6mm and 8mm (possibly up to 12mm) in diameter. If you come across egg sacs of similar size but a little spikey looking, thems brown widow's. And they can be just as nasty...


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: The_Vagabond]
      #3594354 - 01/30/10 08:45 PM

In 1958, Radiometers were were marketed as cutting edge by Nye Optical. Ahhh, just one of many new scientific marvels displayed in Buhl Planetarium's product showcase - that fired the imagination of this 10 year old boy. Life goes full circle. Today, my Dealers use them to demonstrate low emissivity glass.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: akman1955]
      #3594448 - 01/30/10 09:41 PM

Quote:

start sandblasting..greatjob. .john




Thanks, John. I wish I had a sandblaster booth, but I will probably do this the hard way


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: akman1955]
      #3594459 - 01/30/10 09:47 PM

Quote:

my god..glad i dont have these in alaska...had too chase cow moose and two calfs out of yard this morning too let dogs out..john




It's just a bug, and a long gone bug at that, so no worries there! But the live ones seem to come after me! I don't know how many times I've squished them. They usually come out in the summer at night and seem to hang out under wood. The Pack Rats are the worse though, they will eat wire insulation and are a real nuisance. I have to keep a drop light on a timer under my truck to keep them from climbing up into the engine compartment and eating the wire! They don't like light. But, light attracts moths, moths attract geckos and wouldn't you know, I have geckos living in my truck! It's all part of living in the desert I guess.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Lew Chilton]
      #3594510 - 01/30/10 10:14 PM

Quote:

The maker was obviously familiar with what was available on the amateur telescope market and thought he could do better than what was then available. He seems to have thought out every detail of the mounting and tube assembly - and succeeded in spades!




I agree, the designer/builder thought of everything when making this mount.

I am almost 100% sure I've seen this scope before featured in S&T's Gleanings for ATMs sometime after 1975. It sticks to my memory because of the Cave-like rotating rings and the humongous focuser base. There was a picture of it. I kinda remember the article saying that the scope was from the 60's but the mount was designed more recently at the time. I wish I had my old S&T magazines from back then because I would be going through every issue until I found it! Hopefully I will be able to contact the original owner, or his wife and get some invaluable information then. I like to keep a record that documents the telescopes I take care of just for future's sake.

Quote:

There was a Nye Optical Co. on Cherry Ave. on Signal Hill, which I visited a number of times for mirror making supplies. (I donated a 1958 Nye catalog to Bob Provin for his Classic Telescopes and Catalogs website. Here's a link to it. On page 7, it mentions that aluminizing service was furnished, but I think they used Panchro and/or Keim, the same that nearby Cave and Coast Instrument used.)




That's an awesome catalog! Dontcha wish to travel back in time and get some of those goodies? Not because the cost was nothing compared to now (bar inflation) but simply because nobody makes stuff like that anymore!

Quote:

Dan, so glad you're the one who found this scope. In your hands, it'll be brought back to better than new condition. Looking forward to the progress reports!




Thanks, Lew I don't consider this "my" scope. I'm merely the curator, someone who will make it like it used to be, maybe a little better and stainless steel fasteners are the first thing on the list! I do get a lot of enjoyment doing this, but I hope I've honored whoever made it in the first place - they're the expert!


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3594771 - 01/31/10 01:28 AM

Lew Awsome as always!!!
Dan this was not built by anyone trying to make a living building telescopes. No way!!! Who ever built this was a total showoff and must have been friends with Byers, Cave or Carrol or all of them... I would bet you that if you contact some of the guys at the River side ATMers They can tell you who built this thing. I am sure he made the pilgramige to RTMC at least once to show that dude off....

My words of advice I never follow, until the AP landed in my lap. Go slow and dont hit the parts with hammers!!! LOL For the any gears or other parts you need call Bob Burns he can make new custom ones, Emory cloth works wonders....

This scope could be heart stoping and the mirror has a really good chance of being a lulu. know one would put this much work in a mount system and throw a junk mirror in it.
Clint


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3595404 - 01/31/10 12:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Looks like fun, you definitely got one of a kind and your work cut out for you,and like I said 1st "looks like fun"




It's fun, but the funner part is after everything is cleaned up, painted, lubed and ready to be put back together again. The not-fun part is rust and old paint removal.


Oh yes I know all about refurbishing You have a nice piece I,m sure you and all of us are waiting to see the finished product

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #3595641 - 01/31/10 02:31 PM

Quote:

Lew Awsome as always!!!
Dan this was not built by anyone trying to make a living building telescopes. No way!!! Who ever built this was a total showoff and must have been friends with Byers, Cave or Carrol or all of them... I would bet you that if you contact some of the guys at the River side ATMers They can tell you who built this thing. I am sure he made the pilgramige to RTMC at least once to show that dude off....



I need to post a note in the ATM forum here, maybe somebody knows about it. The Seller should be back soon and she should have some info or at least a couple leads.

Quote:

My words of advice I never follow, until the AP landed in my lap. Go slow and dont hit the parts with hammers!!! LOL For the any gears or other parts you need call Bob Burns he can make new custom ones, Emory cloth works wonders....



Yep, I take my time but sometimes get a little excited to get 'er done. I do sometimes use a rubber mallet to persuade things, but if you got to use a regular hammer on something, that usually means that there is something still keeping whatever is being banged on from moving!

Quote:

This scope could be heart stoping and the mirror has a really good chance of being a lulu. know one would put this much work in a mount system and throw a junk mirror in it.



I think so too, especially with the Brandon's included and the storage case just for the mirror. It's all top notch! I hope we can find out who made it so it can have a name. "The Clark 8" f/8"? If it remains a mystery, I'll go nuts!


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3595663 - 01/31/10 02:48 PM Attachment (74 downloads)

The last area going from top to bottom is the stand. 2 of the 3 leveling bolts, 9/16" in diameter came out no problem after being soaked with liquid wrench over night, but one of them would not budge. Well, it budged a little bit after heating it up, but my little propane torch wont get it hot enough to remove it so I will either take it to a shop or just hack off both ends, smooth them down and then drill a hole for caster wheels instead.

The legs are definitely Cave, but I don't think the column is - it's aluminum and I think Cave used steel here.

The way the legs mount to the column is different too, instead of 3/8" studs and wing nuts it uses bolts and knurl nuts that slide through the keyways on the column then go up and tightened down. These bolts are 1/4". There's no indication that the legs ever had 3/8" studs in them and I also noticed that the legs do not have the Instrument Grey paint on them either, just some old white paint over the aluminum. Maybe the builder got the legs from Cave without anything drilled in them as part of the project. It probably would look nice if the legs and column were not painted to match the rest of the aluminum on the mount and tube.

I think one goal of the telescope's design was to make it light as possible without loosing any strength. The only major steel parts are the RA and Dec shafts, and they're hollow, but still sturdy.


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3595701 - 01/31/10 03:02 PM

Well Dan I know I,m on pins and needles

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3596267 - 01/31/10 07:37 PM Attachment (82 downloads)

The RA shaft housing is removed from the base. Plastic layers on either side allow for smooth latitude movement. A 3/8" allen socket bolt goes through the whole assembly with a slot on one side to allow adjustment within a few degrees (looks like 15-degrees or so) without going too far and the latitude adjustment bolt allows for finer adjustment.

The mount must have been out in the sun for a while judging by the differences between exposed and not exposed surfaces with black anodized coating.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3596278 - 01/31/10 07:43 PM Attachment (67 downloads)

Here's a closeup of the latitude adjustment assembly. Its rust is typical of everything on the mount that's rusted!

I am going to try this stuff called Evapo-Rust to remove it. As much rust as possible needs to be removed before taking these things apart as it is very easy to damage the threads where steel meets brass or aluminum or the bolts can seize and cause even more problems.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3596288 - 01/31/10 07:51 PM Attachment (66 downloads)

The Dec clutch assembly is adjusted with 6 spring loaded allen socket head bolts. The RA clutch is similar. The ends of these bolts on the Dec clutch assembly were exposed to the elements with about 1/16" of their tips rusted up. All but one of them came out okay, the last one seized up, so I drilled off the head and removed the ring and gear. I will use my trusty cobalt left-handed drill bit to finish removing what's left of it.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3596293 - 01/31/10 07:56 PM Attachment (75 downloads)

Here's a pic of the Dec clutch all apart. You can see what's left of that one bolt on top. The yellow stuff just below the flange looks like dried up grease. I used a rubber mallet to slowly bop the Dec circle off the shaft.

Everything on this mount is a tight fit with extremely close tolerances! This makes it a little more time consuming to take things apart, but so far, things are going good!


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: actionhac]
      #3596544 - 01/31/10 10:10 PM

Quote:

One thing you could try is see if Morvac Optical Coating is still in around and have them check the records for Clark.

Also remove the secondary mirror to see if anything on the back of it.

Robert




I removed the spider and secondary holder and on the back of the secondary is "M. Clark". The secondary is 1.875" and thick at 7/8". The coatings do not look as good as the primary and the edges are worn off. So, it's a little more info - "M", but not much!

Also, the hand writing on the back of the secondary does not match the hand writing on the back of the primary. And, on the primary, the name is in pencil while on the secondary, it's in ink.

The spider and secondary holder are well built as well, but more on that later!

Edited by Datapanic (01/31/10 10:14 PM)


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3601401 - 02/03/10 12:38 AM Attachment (91 downloads)

As Tim would say, Just so ya know I ain't been slacking....

The Evapo-Rust stuff works great! Here is a pic of some smaller pieces soaking...


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3601411 - 02/03/10 12:40 AM Attachment (83 downloads)

And afterwards...

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3601417 - 02/03/10 12:47 AM

This scope has some serious rust! The first parts had to soak for 8 hours before all the rust was removed, then steel parts were fine treated with a Dremel tool and a wire brush and the brass parts were treated with a Dremel tool and a polishing wheel and rubbing compound.

I am amazed at the accuracy that this instrument's design and build! Its tolerances are almost nill. But, because of that, everything is stuck together because of corrosion and then once the corrosion is gone, it's still a delicate operation to take things apart without destroying things in the process! But, so far, no problems, I just take my time and if I don't see a way to do something right away, I do something else.

I have also started taking apart and cleaning/polishing the RA gear assembly, but more on that later once it's all cleaned up!


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mikey cee
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3601419 - 02/03/10 12:51 AM

Wow that looks great. How much is that stuff a gallon? Mike

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: mikey cee]
      #3601420 - 02/03/10 12:52 AM

Quote:

Why would someone who was a commercial telescope builder use a refractor/cassegrain rack and pinion focuser? Looks like a lot more work involved to mount it but then I'm just a refractor freak. Mike




Hi Mikey!

I've taken a closer look at this area of the scope, and it is not something off a cassegrain or refractor, it is entirely original design machined by the builder. The focuser base rotates when the lock ring is loosened up and it also has an electric focus control. The motor seems okay but I haven't tested it yet and the gearbox is clean inside. Even the focuser knob and shaft are custom made! Actually, I don't think anything on this scope was second-sourced except for some of the gears.


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: mikey cee]
      #3601427 - 02/03/10 01:00 AM

Quote:

Wow that looks great. How much is that stuff a gallon? Mike




I picked up 2 pints at AutoZone for about $16 all together. I've seen it online a lot cheaper, but then there's shipping and waiting. "I highly recommend it!" It's gentle on the hands and doesn't have any fumes at all. You just soak and then rinse it in water. It's also reusable, but I think I will have spent the stuff once that Dec shaft finishes soaking - it's going to be a 24 hour job on that! It also has some penetration qualities where it will break up parts bonded with rust so that they can be separated easily.

Edit to add: It only cleans up steel rust. Rust that smooges onto other metals such as brass or aluminum will dissolve, but the surface will still need to be cleaned/polished/etc.

(I have no affiliation with Evapo-Rust)

Edited by Datapanic (02/03/10 01:35 AM)


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3602088 - 02/03/10 11:57 AM

Wow thats Night an Day Looks fantastic I,m really stoked to see your new found beauty come to life

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tim53
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3602102 - 02/03/10 12:04 PM

I'm impressed!


...how much of that stuff would I need to soak my 1960 VW singlecab pickup?

-Tim.


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grendel
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: tim53]
      #3602229 - 02/03/10 12:59 PM

how much of it do you want left?

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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: grendel]
      #3602271 - 02/03/10 01:13 PM

Quote:

how much of it do you want left?


The solution or the VW

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3602349 - 02/03/10 01:40 PM Attachment (89 downloads)

Here's a pic of the Dec shaft after soaking for about 18 hours. The lower part below the threads was severely rusted, now, the rust is gone and the stuff leaves a dark gray film which can be wiped off. Then, a little cleanup and polishing comes later.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3602359 - 02/03/10 01:42 PM

I have more information about who built the telescope and a little history about the telescope itself!

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tim53
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3602463 - 02/03/10 02:27 PM

...and?????.....

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m. allan noah
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: tim53]
      #3602473 - 02/03/10 02:33 PM

I assume a long post is currently being typed?

allan


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tim53
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3602482 - 02/03/10 02:38 PM Attachment (56 downloads)

Quote:

Quote:

how much of it do you want left?


The solution or the VW




Grendel's got a point!


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3602568 - 02/03/10 03:12 PM

Quote:

I have more information about who built the telescope and a little history about the telescope itself!


Well if ya got it let us see I,m following this like a favorite Tv program

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3602633 - 02/03/10 03:36 PM

This telescope was built by Maynard Clark from Sedona, Arizona. Mr. Clark had his own machine shop and was very helpful to members of the Saguaro Astronomy Club of Phoenix, Arizona by making telescope parts and accessories. He often hosted the club's annual Sedona Star Party. Mr. Clark passed away in early 1990.

I am pretty sure the telescope was featured at the 1980 Riverside Telescope Makers Conference where it won the Merit Award for Excellent Craftsmanship. I think a photo of it may have been in the Sky & Telescope article about Riverside for that year which is why I kinda remember seeing it before, but that was almost 30 years ago and I don't have that issue.

Edit: It would be in the August 1980 issue

I have found that at least one person that knew him is active on Cloudy Nights and I have asked him for info and sent him a link to this thread.

It is believed that the missing label/plaque has been found and there should be some more info on that soon.

I want to make sure that information I have about Mr. Clark and this telescope are correct before making a post about it, but as I find things out, I will surely let everyone know.

Edited by Datapanic (02/03/10 09:12 PM)


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3602720 - 02/03/10 04:09 PM

The plaque says:

MERIT AWARD
1980
Riverside Telescope
Makers Conference

I will pick it up this weekend!


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3603056 - 02/03/10 06:44 PM

Dude you have the find of the <I,m lost for words.... I,m sure you will do this justice

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desertrefugee
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3603203 - 02/03/10 08:14 PM

Quote:

Mr. Clark had his own machine shop and was very helpful to members of the Saguaro Astronomy Club of Phoenix, Arizona.




I'm a member of SAC, (but not longtime). However, there are several LONGTIME members - including Steve Coe - who will surely be able to provide information. Steve writes a regular "What's up ... " column right here on CN.

I'll start asking around and see if members can help fill in some blanks. Many have been in the club for 30 years or more.


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desertrefugee
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: desertrefugee]
      #3603263 - 02/03/10 08:44 PM

I've put the word out onto the SAC forum. I'm sure information will soon be forthcoming.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: desertrefugee]
      #3603314 - 02/03/10 09:11 PM

Thanks, Darrell! I promise I wont paint the tube black Really!

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clintwhitman
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #3603691 - 02/04/10 02:17 AM

Alright you guys tell me I didnt nail this one back on page 4!!!
Thanks for saving this scope and it history Dan,,, Kudos to you. It is somthing special.. i hope to get a peek thur it at the Classic star party!!

Quote:

Lew Awsome as always!!!
Dan this was not built by anyone trying to make a living building telescopes. No way!!! Who ever built this was a total showoff and must have been friends with Byers, Cave or Carrol or all of them... I would bet you that if you contact some of the guys at the River side ATMers They can tell you who built this thing. I am sure he made the pilgramige to RTMC at least once to show that dude off....

My words of advice I never follow, until the AP landed in my lap. Go slow and dont hit the parts with hammers!!! LOL For the any gears or other parts you need call Bob Burns he can make new custom ones, Emory cloth works wonders....

This scope could be heart stoping and the mirror has a really good chance of being a lulu. know one would put this much work in a mount system and throw a junk mirror in it.
Clint




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Lew Chilton
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3603692 - 02/04/10 02:18 AM

Quote:

This telescope was built by Maynard Clark from Sedona, Arizona...

I am pretty sure the telescope was featured at the 1980 Riverside Telescope Makers Conference where it won the Merit Award for Excellent Craftsmanship. I think a photo of it may have been in the Sky & Telescope article about Riverside for that year which is why I kinda remember seeing it before, but that was almost 30 years ago and I don't have that issue.

Edit: It would be in the August 1980 issue...




I just checked my August 1980 issue of Sky & Tel. Yes, there is an article about the May 1980 RTMC. And, yes, Maynard W. Clark is mentioned, but, alas, no picture of his scope.

Mr. Clark was born in 1910 and passed away in February 1990. Sedona, AZ is primarily a retirement community so we may assume that before he retired, he was living somewhere else. Maybe a member of the Suguaro Astronomy Club can provide further biographical details.


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desertrefugee
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Lew Chilton]
      #3603948 - 02/04/10 08:57 AM

Some info on Mr. Clark as related by Gene Lucas, one of the longtime members (actually a charter member) to whom I referred:

Says Gene:

Quote:

Maynard and Jeannie Clark were regular SAC members for some years,
living in the Sedona area. They were very gracious and kind and invited
the club members up for a "dark skies" star party at their home every
year... They had an attractive, custom-designed residence in the
residential area south of Sedona, just north of Bell Rock, right up
against the fence next to the reservation, and close to some of the red
cliffs in a beautiful setting.

Maynard was a retired machinist from California aerospace, and had a
hobby machine shop in his garage, and enjoyed tinkering with his lathe
and so forth. I believe the telescope and mounting you are referring to
was crafted and customized by Maynard.
He won a Merit Award at RTMC in 1980 for his workmanship on this scope.
http://www.rtmcastronomyexpo.org/archives/1980.html
(Sorry I don't have a photo... perhaps in Sky & Telescope, 1980...)
Maynard evidently started with basic parts from a Cave GEM mount, and
"improved" and added accessories as he went along... described in some
detail in the Cloudy Nights thread, with photos of the scope and
accessories...

Jeannie was active in the Girl Scouts here in the Valley. After Maynard
passed away, she moved back to California to live with relatives.





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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #3604349 - 02/04/10 12:05 PM

Quote:

Alright you guys tell me I didnt nail this one back on page 4!!!
Thanks for saving this scope and it history Dan,,, Kudos to you. It is somthing special.. i hope to get a peek thur it at the Classic star party!!




Yep, you sure did! I think there's more history to it yet to be discovered and it will gradually be revealed. I hope to have it finished by the time the Classic star party happens, but it's going very slow.


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Lew Chilton]
      #3604362 - 02/04/10 12:11 PM

Quote:

I just checked my August 1980 issue of Sky & Tel. Yes, there is an article about the May 1980 RTMC. And, yes, Maynard W. Clark is mentioned, but, alas, no picture of his scope.




Darn, I was hoping the picture was in there! Online, I found the Telescope Making Vol. 8 Summer 1980 issue that had 14 pages about that year's RTMC, but no picture there either and just Mr. Clark's name as a recipient of the Merit Award.

An older picture would be invaluable to see what was used for a finder and where it was mounted and what the four bolt holes were for on the focuser base. Hopefully, this info will surface!


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: desertrefugee]
      #3604381 - 02/04/10 12:17 PM

Quote:

Some info on Mr. Clark as related by Gene Lucas, one of the longtime members (actually a charter member) to whom I referred:

Says Gene:

Quote:

Maynard and Jeannie Clark were regular SAC members for some years,
living in the Sedona area. They were very gracious and kind and invited
the club members up for a "dark skies" star party at their home every
year... They had an attractive, custom-designed residence in the
residential area south of Sedona, just north of Bell Rock, right up
against the fence next to the reservation, and close to some of the red
cliffs in a beautiful setting.

Maynard was a retired machinist from California aerospace, and had a
hobby machine shop in his garage, and enjoyed tinkering with his lathe
and so forth. I believe the telescope and mounting you are referring to
was crafted and customized by Maynard.
He won a Merit Award at RTMC in 1980 for his workmanship on this scope.
http://www.rtmcastronomyexpo.org/archives/1980.html
(Sorry I don't have a photo... perhaps in Sky & Telescope, 1980...)
Maynard evidently started with basic parts from a Cave GEM mount, and
"improved" and added accessories as he went along... described in some
detail in the Cloudy Nights thread, with photos of the scope and
accessories...

Jeannie was active in the Girl Scouts here in the Valley. After Maynard
passed away, she moved back to California to live with relatives.








That's some good info!

He may have started with a Cave mount, but when he was finished, all that was left were the legs! There aren't any Cave parts or design similarities that I can see, even the gears are different. The RA and Dec ring gears are the same size as what Cave used, but the clutches do not use the teflon strip and therefore have a slightly larger diameter.


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3604422 - 02/04/10 12:32 PM Attachment (67 downloads)

And speaking of gears...

Here is the RA worm block assembly which mounts to the ring gear assembly taken apart and mostly cleaned up. The block itself needs to be polished up. From left to right, the manual adjustment knob, brass end housing, gear, washer, gear, nut, tension washer, gear for the motor worm gear (not shown), fiber washer, worm gear and worm gear adjustment bolt. All this goes on the shaft and on the block. The tension for the gear for the motor worm gear is adjusted by the nut so that it will turn the shaft either by the manual knob or by the motor.


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3604437 - 02/04/10 12:35 PM Attachment (59 downloads)

A closeup of the brass gears. The shaft holes still need to be cleaned up!

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CAVEMASTER
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3604530 - 02/04/10 01:13 PM

Absolutely fascinating, I especially appreciate your zeal and yet expertise in doing the work. And how the CN community pooled its resources in helping you through this, to better know just what you have here that is. Seems you are okay in the refurbishment of it as an army of one. It was a pleasure to read this and I am glad I found the string.

Danny :


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: CAVEMASTER]
      #3605351 - 02/04/10 07:36 PM

Thanks Danny!

After thinking about it not-so-long and not-so-hard, I decided to take some parts to a machine shop.

The Dec shaft - I thought the top flange where the cradle mounts would separate, but once at the shop we took off some paint on the flange and discovered that it was welded to the end of the shaft - it was all one piece. But, since the part was there anyway and I could tell the owner of the shop definitely knew his stuff, I decided to leave it there so that he can polish the counterweight section and remove the pitting that was left from the rust. He says it will take off less than 1/64" in the process which is okay for the counterweight to still do its job.

The RA Housing - the two RA shaft bearings on either end for the RA shaft are in flush so that the outer ring of the bearing is even with the inside of the housing. I don't have anything that could remove it.

The RA Shaft - the upper flange sleeve will not budge and it needs to be moved towards the end of the shaft so that the RA clutch drive assembly and setting circle can be removed and also so that the Dec Housing can be separated from the RA Housing.

Cave Leg - one of the 5/8" leveling bolts is not coming out. He's also going to make 3 new leveling bolts since they're all in pretty bad shape.

All the parts need to be separated so that they can be completely cleaned and polished and painted as needed. It will probably take a week or more to get the parts back but there's still lots to do in the meantime.

I am not going to do any of the painting myself but instead take it to a paint shop that specializes in Powdercoating.


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stevecoe
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3605554 - 02/04/10 09:46 PM

Dan;

I will look through my photographs of telescopes from SAC star parties and see if I have a shot of Maynard's scope, I don't remember one, but I will look.

I did have several chances to observe with this scope, mostly from Sedona. It provides excellent images and I particularly remember Mars one year when I was close. Lots of excellent detail across the face of the red planet.

Maynard was a wonderful gentleman and I do remember that the SAC membership was shocked when he died. He and his wife had been so gracious for years encouraging the club to drive up to Sedona and have a star party.

I am happy to see that the scope has fallen into the hands of someone who will use and appreciate it.

Clear skies;
Steve Coe


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: stevecoe]
      #3606776 - 02/05/10 02:18 PM

Thank you Steve!

Maybe when this telescope is finished, I can bring it to one of the SAC star parties

There are only 3 mysteries about it that are left to solve:

Who made the mirror and when?

When was the telescope made? – The motors are dated 1964 and 1965, and the tube is not dated but it is fiberglass with a seam so if it is a Parks tube, it is also from around that time, but it was at RTMC in 1980!

Where did the viewfinder mount? There are no holes near the focuser that would have been for a viewfinder but there are two holes through the upper rotating ring which may have been for a viewfinder, but I think that would have been awkward to use if it were mounted at that location.


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mattyfatz
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: tim53]
      #3606851 - 02/05/10 02:49 PM

Quote:

I'm impressed!


...how much of that stuff would I need to soak my 1960 VW singlecab pickup?

-Tim.



ok... I need a pic of that VW


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tim53
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: mattyfatz]
      #3606887 - 02/05/10 03:04 PM

It's at the top of the previous page!

[Edited to add: Many years ago, at a SOTO meet, I was looking at a Doublecab with so much rust you could poke your finger through the front into the passenger compartment in several places, particularly around the windshields, and some guy walked up and stood next to me for a minute, then said: "It's time to crush it and get the cryin' over with!"]

Sorry about the threadjack, Dan!

-Tim.

Edited by tim53 (02/05/10 03:06 PM)


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: tim53]
      #3606916 - 02/05/10 03:20 PM Attachment (61 downloads)

Quote:

...Sorry about the threadjack, Dan!




ehhh, it's about old rusty things, so it's on topic!

Here's a before pic of the Dec worm gear block assembly and motor mount. Not really any rusty steel here, it's brass and aluminum except for the worm gear itself and the shaft. It soaked in the Evapo-Rust for a day just to help free up the shaft, which is still not moving.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3606927 - 02/05/10 03:24 PM Attachment (58 downloads)

Here's a pic of the RA worm gear block assembly all shined up, lubed and back together again - whew! It was a 3-night project doing this more intricate piece. The motor mount and its worm gear are next in line.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3606969 - 02/05/10 03:43 PM

It's a poll! Well sort of. But I would really like some opinions on this...

I have been thinking about what to do about painting the parts of the mount that were never painted, such as drive assembly rear housings, the cradle, rotating rings, focuser and base, polar scope and mount, shaft ring retainers, and other such parts. There is some painting already to do, such as on the RA and Dec shaft housings and pier cap.

The aluminum pieces are scratched up and even a good polish wont remove the deeper imperfections, so maybe it would be better to cover it up with powder coating?

What do you think? If pro-paint, what colors?


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mikey cee
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3607141 - 02/05/10 05:08 PM

Preston is the resident expert on colored powder coatings....sure as bell ain't me! Mike

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rfic1
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3607276 - 02/05/10 06:33 PM

Man you are good.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: rfic1]
      #3608560 - 02/06/10 01:18 PM Attachment (66 downloads)

The tedious process of dis-assembly and cleaning continues along. Here is the worm gear and thrust bearing assembly for the RA motor. As you can see, some of these parts are very small and almost hidden sometimes behind years of corrosion. Each piece must be thoroughly cleaned, not just for looks but mainly because Mr. Clark built this telescope with extremely close tolerances and any crud still left on a piece will interfere with is fit.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3610550 - 02/07/10 01:16 PM Attachment (76 downloads)

And finally, one section complete!

After smoke checking the motor to make sure it works, I cleaned up the housing and put everything back together. The motor mount is brass and the gear blocks and meshes are all a perfect fit.

The Dec motor works as well which is a relief because these motors list for $170 each but I've seen them as low as $100 each at surplus sites.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3611335 - 02/07/10 07:23 PM Attachment (59 downloads)

More shiny! This is the Dec circle after two passes of polishing. Most of the pitting is gone but I think it needs one more pass to look the best it can.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3611344 - 02/07/10 07:31 PM Attachment (65 downloads)

While polishing the back housing of the RA drive, the scratches started really coming out. This is not a critical surface, but it will need a lot of smoothing out. A better alternative might be to go with a black wrinkle power coat...

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3614373 - 02/09/10 10:03 AM

Dan You are doing a very nice jos there

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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3614378 - 02/09/10 10:05 AM

Job,meant to say job

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EverlastingSky
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3615193 - 02/09/10 04:34 PM

Really nice restoration that's for sure. I love reading these threads!

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: EverlastingSky]
      #3615777 - 02/09/10 09:53 PM

Thanks guys! Not much to show for today - just cleaning, brushing and polishing the Dec motor worm gear block pieces.

I have started taking the tube apart and it occurred to me that it can have an interchangeable focuser. See the pic on the first page to see what I mean. It has a retainer ring that unscrews to remove the focuser and its base. Soooooo, I'm thinking on machining a new base with a 2" x 24 threads/inch male hole in the center to accept any Celestron or Meade Cassegrain adaptable focuser! This would be a non-destructive "Bolt-On" replacement and opens up a lot of doors to modernize this telescope without taking away its original design.

In other news, a big box of stainless steel fasteners should be here Friday. Friday would be 8 days since I left some of the major parts at the machinist's for specialized work. It is a one man shop and I don't expect him to be finished with the work by then, but I hope he is done! Then, other parts (including some of those at the machinists) will be off to the powder coating shop, which has a 4-7 day turnaround.

I still have some paint stripping to do on the Cave Legs, and a lot more cleaning up as well. This project is a lot more involved than the previous Cave 8" f/6 Model B overhaul, but I think it will be worth it and I'm really looking forward to the First Light on this one - it's an excellent scope!


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3615798 - 02/09/10 10:04 PM

I've been keeping track this time of the cost for this restore. This wasn't done with either Caves I rebuilt. So far...

$35 Rust and Paint Remover
$18 Dremel Wire Brushes and Felt Wheels
$5 Dremel Wire Brush
$30 Stainless Steel Fasteners (round 1)
$30 Shop Supplies - towels, mineral spirits, paint brushes, etc.
$20 Dremel Wire Brushes and Felt Wheels

Looks like it's going to add up and there's still the Machinist and Powercoating. But, I think it's definitely worth it!


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3616453 - 02/10/10 09:57 AM

Sweet Dan looking foward to seeing this

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3630084 - 02/17/10 11:39 AM

Hows the project coming along Dan

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3630151 - 02/17/10 12:16 PM Attachment (77 downloads)

It's poking along right now. For the mount, still waiting on the machinist to remove the bearings from the RA housing and the sleeve bearings from the Dec shaft. He also has one of the legs with a stuck 5/8" leveling bolt. He says he will get it all done this week, but hasn't started yet. Once those parts get back to me, then I just need to clean up the remaining leg and then the mount can go to the powder coaters, which has a 7 day turnaround.

I have entirely disassembled the tube, and have some interesting things to show about that, Mr. Clark did a super design job on the rotating rings. The aluminum ring that reinforces the spider has a crack all the way through, so a new one of those needs to be made. I will probably have the machinist make it along with a new focuser base that will accept 2" or maybe even 3.25" focusers for SCT's.

I am meeting the seller in about an hour to pick up that missing label! She lives up in the mountains somewhere so it's hard to meet up. She will be able to search the back of her truck the first week in March to look for and hopefully find the two missing leveler knobs.

I got my first order of stainless fasteners last week and some pieces, like the RA and DEC worm gear assemblies are ready to go.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3630239 - 02/17/10 12:47 PM

Very nice Dan you truly are doing a stand-up job every thing you have done looks pristine

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JohnD_STL
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3630349 - 02/17/10 01:33 PM


All:

I'm new to the Classic Scopes forum, I've been doing a lot
of reading and looking at all your fabulous pictures
on lots of the threads.

From a search on the web, I can't help but wonder if
this is the Maynard Clark that did some work
at Mount Wilson Observatory in the 1980's.
Google "Mount Wilson Observatory Maynard Clark"

Sorry if that is way off base...

John D.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3630356 - 02/17/10 01:36 PM Attachment (73 downloads)

Thanks!

Hey look! The Plaque!!!

Maynard Clark - 8" F/8, Excellent Craftsmanship

RTMC 1980

Edited by Datapanic (02/17/10 01:40 PM)


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3630418 - 02/17/10 02:04 PM

Quote:

Thanks!

Hey look! The Plaque!!!

Maynard Clark - 8" F/8, Excellent Craftsmanship

RTMC 1980


Dan ya got ya one of a kind,Way to go Bro

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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3646913 - 02/25/10 01:29 PM

Just checking in with you Dan on your project

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: JohnD_STL]
      #3647084 - 02/25/10 02:45 PM

Quote:


All:

I'm new to the Classic Scopes forum, I've been doing a lot
of reading and looking at all your fabulous pictures
on lots of the threads.

From a search on the web, I can't help but wonder if
this is the Maynard Clark that did some work
at Mount Wilson Observatory in the 1980's.
Google "Mount Wilson Observatory Maynard Clark"

Sorry if that is way off base...

John D.




Not off base at all! I don't know for sure if that's the same person, this Maynard Clark was a machinist for California Aerospace. The only person I know of that knows all about Mr. Clark and this telescope is a geologist and is currently "out in the field". The wife of the geologist was a friend of Mrs. Clark who moved to California after Mr. Clark passed away but she lost contact about three years ago. The seller's mother is friends of the geologist's wife. (That's the circle, I guess!)


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3647102 - 02/25/10 02:56 PM

Quote:

Just checking in with you Dan on your project




Still waiting on the machinist - 3 weeks now! I am mostly on hold until that work gets done, then I can take the parts to the powdercoating place, which only has a 5-7 day turnaround time. They charge by the batch, so it's better so bring in all the parts at one time instead of a few pieces at a time as they become ready.

For colors, I am going with a metallic silver for the legs/stand and various pieces of the mount, other pieces either black or wrinkled black. Of course I might go with different colors once I see some samples!

The tube end rings, rotating rings and focuser base will follow the same color scheme. The mirror mount is black anodized aluminum and does not need new paint so I will leave it alone.

The tube itself is probably a Parks and is in good enough shape that it just needs to be cleaned up and polished. It has a couple gouges in it, and if they show too much, then it might need a paint job, in which case - Black or White, not sure yet!

I'm not doing any of the paint myself, I would rather have pros do it for the best results.


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3649064 - 02/26/10 03:12 PM

Good deal Dan know we are all waiting to see this beauty

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3652800 - 02/28/10 02:34 PM Attachment (66 downloads)

I finally got the one leg with the stuck 5/8" leveling bolt back from the machinist! He's a one-man shop and stays very busy. The shop is old school and has been around for a long time, very big with lots of equipment.

Now there's only one more part that needs to be made and that will complete everything for the metallic silver batch of parts for powdercoating.

The reinforcement ring for the spider has a crack all the way where the spider vane support is shown in this picture. One of the other holes also has a crack and now the thing is in 2 pieces! Clint has introduced me to Bob Burns who will be making a replacement ring as well as a new focuser base as soon as I get some diagrams to him!

Edited by Datapanic (02/28/10 07:29 PM)


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3652811 - 02/28/10 02:43 PM Attachment (60 downloads)

Meanwhile, I have disassembled the OTA. Here is a closeup of the mirror end tube ring which really serves as a mount for the mirror and cell. Remember that the mirror and its cell has its own storage box. 3 knobs are used to secure the cell to the ring. Two red alignment marks are recessed in each part. I think these marks were more for collimation purposes to minimize setup time out in the field.

The end ring has been cleaned and partially polished, ready for paint.


Edited by Datapanic (02/28/10 02:44 PM)


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3652837 - 02/28/10 02:54 PM Attachment (61 downloads)

Here's a double picture of the mirror cell's collimation adjustment spring loaded bolts between the base and cell. The springs are very sturdy and there is no slop in the adjustment.

On the back of the mirror cell, you can see the center mark, then a hole to access the adjustment of the floating supports and the collimation adjustment bolt.

Note the "X" marking the mounting hole location. I guess this part was put together after it was anodized. I don't know why the inner cell is brown...


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3652851 - 02/28/10 03:01 PM Attachment (51 downloads)

The 9 point float assembly rests of 3 machined supports that are adjustable from the rear. The floating supports are connected to each other by 1/8" aluminum rod and not secured to allow for minor thermal expansion (my theory, anyway!).

Edited by Datapanic (02/28/10 03:08 PM)


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3652880 - 02/28/10 03:17 PM Attachment (44 downloads)

The mirror is secured to the cell with 3 split ring cork lined pieces that can be adjusted along the optical axis and a retainer ring (not shown).

Later, I plan on making a bolt-on cooling fan assembly with 3 fans that will easily mount to the rear of the cell and be secured by the knobs.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3652896 - 02/28/10 03:26 PM Attachment (53 downloads)

Moving up the tube to the rotating rings, you can see the teflon blocks used to provide smooth rotating between the inner and outer rings. The design is similar to Cave rotating rings except Cave used round teflon rod where these are blocks providing much more contact and support. Felt strips are used between the blocks, not sure why because they don't seem to serve a purpose. Maybe they shrunk over time? If that were so, then they would provide a cushion between the two rings. When this area is reassembled, I will experiment with thicker felt to see how it works out.

Each teflon block was marked and numbered for the front and rear ring sets.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3652910 - 02/28/10 03:39 PM Attachment (48 downloads)

These are the fasteners for just the rotating rings!

Each assembly of the telescope has a lot of different fasteners. As I disassemble each major part, an inventory of type and size of each fastener is made and where it goes. The Before Pictures also help to double check how parts were assembled, especially in this case since this overhaul is taking a while. Standard fasteners are replaced with new stainless steel fasteners and special pieces are cleaned up. Once I have a big enough list, I order online instead of making 40 trips to Ace Hardware.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3652923 - 02/28/10 03:51 PM Attachment (65 downloads)

The spider and secondary holder!

I really like this design, mainly because it uses an aluminum tube that slides through the center support and is locked in place with 4 set screws instead of threaded rod and lock nuts. It makes it a lot easier to accurately line up the secondary. The 3 adjustment bolts provide precise movement without any other contact such as that which is used with a threaded rod and an acorn nut for a pivot like the Cave design.

The vanes are made of .005" brass sheet, and are bent and even cracked in some places where they are soldered to the center support. They will need to be replaced.

Edited by Datapanic (02/28/10 07:29 PM)


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3652942 - 02/28/10 04:07 PM Attachment (51 downloads)

Here is an exploded view of the secondary holder. There is a felt gasket the goes between the inner and outer support.

It's kinda interesting to note that the an aluminum tube was used instead of a solid shaft to minimize weight.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3652946 - 02/28/10 04:09 PM Attachment (58 downloads)

The bare tube - to paint or not to paint?

It's getting kinda crowded in the garage!


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EricP
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3653001 - 02/28/10 04:38 PM

Dan,

I've been following this saga for a while. You're doing an awesome job! I think anyone having reservations about this scope being sold, would be heart-warmed to see it end up in such good hands and being restored in such a respectful manner.

That being said, I would vote to paint it white, so the restoration would be as close to Mr. Clark's original design as possible.

I'm enjoying watching your progress, so please keep us up to date!


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: EricP]
      #3653544 - 02/28/10 10:00 PM

Thanks, Eric! I think it would be best to go with white too for the reasons you gave. Maybe a pearlescent white

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: EricP]
      #3653550 - 02/28/10 10:06 PM Attachment (60 downloads)

New spider vanes are cut from .005" brass sheet metal. I am deviating a little from the original design by not cutting out the centers. I'm not sure why the originals had a hole cut but over time, it resulted in 8 'arms' getting bent up and I think one big vane will stand up better and provide more strength.

The metal is so thin that plain old scissors are used to cut it. Then, a new metal file is used to smooth the edges.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3653562 - 02/28/10 10:13 PM Attachment (70 downloads)

One down, three to go!

The vane is silver soldered to the mounting bolt and then to the center support. This was one of those jobs where you need three hands - one for the torch, one to hold the piece just right and one to apply the solder. It was also tricky because the center support is a lot more thicker and it has to be heated up almost to the point where solder will melt and then the vane is positioned and heated before solder is applied. The problem is the vane is thin and heats up faster than the center support and it's very flimsy to hold just right! I used a small butane torch with a low flame for the end bolts and a medium flame for the center support soldering.

Once a test fit is done, I may find that they need to be redone!


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: EricP]
      #3654197 - 03/01/10 11:15 AM

Quote:

Dan,

I've been following this saga for a while. You're doing an awesome job! I think anyone, having reservations about this scope being sold, would be heart-warmed to see it end up in such good hands and being restored in such a respectful manner.

That being said, I would vote to paint it white, so the restoration would be as close to Mr. Clark's original design as possible.

I'm enjoying watching your progress, so please keep us up to date!


I totally agree with Eric here Dan fantastic job,I also agree with white paint

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EricP
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3655146 - 03/01/10 07:25 PM

Man, that looks like a challenging solder project! You've got a beautiful seam on the first one. I'd be afraid I'd ruin the first seam while heating the center support for the adjacent ones.

Would it be worth your while to build a jig of some sort to hold the work steady while soldering the other three vanes? That could free up your third hand to scratch your nose or swat flies.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: EricP]
      #3655182 - 03/01/10 07:49 PM Attachment (46 downloads)

Quote:

Man, that looks like a challenging solder project! You've got a beautiful seam on the first one. I'd be afraid I'd ruin the first seam while heating the center support for the adjacent ones.




That didn't happen with the silver solder but I did manage to screw up the remaining vanes later - the brass sheet is so thin that the heat warps it and it gets ruined!

Quote:

Would it be worth your while to build a jig of some sort to hold the work steady while soldering the other three vanes? That could free up your third hand to scratch your nose or swat flies.




That's what I did the second time around This time, I made a jig that held the center support horizontally and then placed a steel rule where the end of the vane is to center it up to the support. Then, I heated up the center support first until it was just hot enough to melt solder and then quickly position the vane in the center support slot, clamp it down and solder it on. Once cooled a little, flip the thing over and do the other side.

I used a softer rosin core solder this time, which made it easier, but it has a lower melting point and if I wasn't careful, the solder on the other side or on the other vanes would get too hot and melt.

I'm going to go a third try with the next size up brass sheet metal and back to the silver solder and flux.

Here's the best so far:


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m. allan noah
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3655259 - 03/01/10 08:24 PM

Put a heat sink on the fin you are brazing, 1 inch out from the joint. In the old days, we used to mix asbestos with antifreeze, and put a big ring of it around the joint on thin material. Now adays, I clamp a block of copper. I suppose you could do the same on the finished fins too, if you have a problem with them falling out.

allan


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: m. allan noah]
      #3655556 - 03/01/10 10:56 PM Attachment (55 downloads)

The 9th time is the charm! This time, I used .010" brass sheet (twice as thick as the previous attempts) and silver solder and flux. The vane did not warp from the heat and the solder flowed well. I am only going to solder one side of each vane because the other side really doesn't need it and it risks melting the existing work on the finished side.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3655560 - 03/01/10 10:59 PM Attachment (54 downloads)

Here's the jig. Not much to it, the red center line is set with a metal rule and everything is clamped down. Once everything looks square, the vane is removed and the center support is heated up where it will be soldered, then the vane is placed back in position and soldered in place.

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EricP
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3655624 - 03/01/10 11:39 PM

Very ingenious. Well done!

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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3655737 - 03/02/10 01:29 AM

Nice dude, Very nice

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3661030 - 03/04/10 06:46 PM Attachment (47 downloads)

The completed spider with 0.010" vanes! Besides the soldering, the tricky part was getting the length of the vanes just right so that there is just a little bit of space between the mounting ends and the inside of the tube. When they are tightened down, there's no gap and the vanes are pulled straight.

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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3679218 - 03/13/10 06:56 PM

Sorry Dan,just could not help myself ,just looking to see how it is going

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3679770 - 03/14/10 04:01 AM

Quote:

Sorry Dan,just could not help myself ,just looking to see how it is going




Things are moving along real slow - still waiting on the local machinist to remove the bearings from the RA shaft. I bug him once a week, because he says he'll get it done sooner if I bug him, so Monday, I'll really bug him! I need to have all the pieces together for the powder coating because they charge by the batch, so it would cost twice as much to paint some pieces now and the rest later.

There is something really cool somebody is doing that's coming up soon, but I want to wait until it's done before posting about it

I'll try and post some picks of the what's going on with the stand and pier cap/azimuth adjusters tomorrow.


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3679842 - 03/14/10 06:14 AM

Cool beans Dan

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clintwhitman
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3679869 - 03/14/10 07:00 AM

The Spider is first rate...I think the original builder had the centers cut in order to decrese cooling time and to decrease tube currents being caused buy the metal surface of the vane. I keep wanting to build a curve spider for the 10" Cave because it speads the distortion across the entire optic path instead of bunching it up around what your trying to look at, but cant bring myself to the point of changing the original!!!!! I think you would have been happier with the 005 material as the 010 is going to reduce the contrast twice as much. I am speaking from 4 atemps with diffrent material to rebuild the spider in our school outreach scope a 12.5 RG Meade monster. I finaly switched from brass to hack saw blade material that I drilled and micro screwed together and it cleared the mush right up. Ed Zucardi one of the Pons crew told me I should have used guitar E strings super slinky!!! Ouch!!!

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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #3679894 - 03/14/10 07:32 AM

Quote:

The Spider is first rate...I think the original builder had the centers cut in order to decrese cooling time and to decrease tube currents being caused buy the metal surface of the vane. I keep wanting to build a curve spider for the 10" Cave because it speads the distortion across the entire optic path instead of bunching it up around what your trying to look at, but cant bring myself to the point of changing the original!!!!! I think you would have been happier with the 005 material as the 010 is going to reduce the contrast twice as much. I am speaking from 4 atemps with diffrent material to rebuild the spider in our school outreach scope a 12.5 RG Meade monster. I finaly switched from brass to hack saw blade material that I drilled and micro screwed together and it cleared the mush right up. Ed Zucardi one of the Pons crew told me I should have used guitar E strings super slinky!!! Ouch!!!


I dont think Ernie Balls will do it,but maybe resonator stings

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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710140 - 03/28/10 11:42 AM

Dan this is like waiting on Heinz Ketchup "Anticipation Dan's making us wait,he's making us wait" Hope all is well dude

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3710500 - 03/28/10 02:12 PM Attachment (38 downloads)

I've been stuck in Cave Leg territory. But got out! The problem was the Cave Legs on the this scope were drilled and tapped for 5/8-11 leveling bolts where the caster wheels go on a normal Cave Leg. The normal setup looks like this:

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710510 - 03/28/10 02:16 PM Attachment (36 downloads)

When this scope is done, I really want to be able to roll it around, just like the other two Caves, they're kind of big and I only have so much room in the garage. But, these leveling screws are 5/8" and the closest I found for casters was 1/2" but the wheels were humongous, so I passed on them and looked around for sleeves that would fit. That didn't work out too well either, the casters still had a lot of movement.

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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710541 - 03/28/10 02:29 PM

Nice to see something going on,waiting on this Dan, is like waitng on Christmas(when I was young of course)

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710548 - 03/28/10 02:31 PM Attachment (42 downloads)

I thought that it would be bad to drill smaller holes further out on the legs where the leveling screws normally go on Cave Legs for the casters.

But then, I looked at the roll of aluminum tape on the shelf, wondered how it would work as a semi-hard bushing material wrapped around the caster stem. So, I cut a strip and wrapped it carefully around the stem of one of the casters and it fit great with less slop than the Cave Legs!

This was the best solution because the original design is kept the same, while still having the mobility available to roll it around if needed.

Here's the stand in mobile mode - all the paint has been removed and it's been sanded and it's all ready for the powdercoat:


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3710561 - 03/28/10 02:35 PM

Quote:

Nice to see something going on,waiting on this Dan, is like waitng on Christmas(when I was young of course)




I know, as Tom Petty sang - "The waiting is the hardest part" The machinist in Tucson said he would be done by this Friday. Other parts are being made now but I don't think it will take as long.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710568 - 03/28/10 02:38 PM Attachment (40 downloads)

Crooked Legs! I think Mr. Clark must have gotten these legs from Cave as "Factory Seconds". Two of them are crooked when you look straight at them and the third one had a lot of extra metal along the top where it meets up with the column. The third leg also broke where the 5/8" hole was drilled and welded back together, but not ground smooth. But they all do what they're supposed to do, so there's no sense in trying to find replacements. It's barely noticeable.

Edited by Datapanic (03/28/10 02:39 PM)


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710569 - 03/28/10 02:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Nice to see something going on,waiting on this Dan, is like waitng on Christmas(when I was young of course)




I know, as Tom Petty sang - "The waiting is the hardest part" The machinist in Tucson said he would be done by this Friday. Other parts are being made now but I don't think it will take as long.




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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710571 - 03/28/10 02:41 PM

The mount is sweet Dan Nice job Bro

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710587 - 03/28/10 02:49 PM Attachment (45 downloads)

The levelers are a lot more beefier than the Cave levelers. From my experience, on Cave legs, the leveler bolts are 3/8" and tend to flex from all the weight of the scope. With these humongous 5/8" levelers, it's very sturdy and the pads and knobs are really nice.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710604 - 03/28/10 02:55 PM Attachment (36 downloads)

I'm still missing two of the leveling knobs, but they may be in the back of the old Ford pickup out in the country. The truck is used to transport old stuff to a monthly antiques fair in Tucson but it's been rained out the last two months! Hopefully next week, the weather will be better and she can look for the knobs when she sets things up. The truck and her home are an hour apart.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710620 - 03/28/10 03:03 PM Attachment (38 downloads)

But, just in case the knobs never show up, I've already drawn plans for them to be made by a machinist. It's been a couple decades and then some since I had that mechanical drawing class!

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3710624 - 03/28/10 03:06 PM

Quote:

The mount is sweet Dan Nice job Bro




Thanks! I'm thinking on making the stand the same color as the tube - a kind of pearl white with a blue tint to it, kind of like Clint's 9" AP tube. More on this tube later!


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710685 - 03/28/10 03:31 PM Attachment (43 downloads)

The scope has a few pieces that have been anodized black, and fading. The plan is to powdercoat them as well. But, while googling around, I read that powdercoat on top of anodized aluminum sometimes may not adhere as good as it can on bare aluminum. So, the anodization has to go!

There seems to be about 4 ways to do this:
1. Sanding/blasting
2. Phosphoric Acid bath
3. Oven Cleaner
4. Drano

I tried sanding first, and it went nowhere fast because the anodized surface is very hard. The Phosphoric Acid bath would probably be the best, but I couldn't find any around here and it involves heating up the acid mixed in water and then removing the sludge every few minutes. Seems messy. So, I tried Easy Off Heavy Duty Oven Cleaner. Wow! After slathering it and letting it do its work over 45 minutes, the anodization flaked right off and then the remaining was sanded off and I got bare aluminum! I tried Drano, but after 2 hours of soaking, it just wasn't doing it enough and it also costs a lot more than the oven cleaner.

Here's a pic of the upper pier cap pieces, along with the initial spray on of oven cleaner. The round upper pier cap base has already been finished.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710700 - 03/28/10 03:34 PM Attachment (45 downloads)

After 5 minutes, you can see the oven cleaner going to work. If it starts to dry up, I spray a little more on and after 45 minutes, just rinse it with water. As an added bonus, it smells so lemony fresh!

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710803 - 03/28/10 04:14 PM Attachment (118 downloads)

With 5 minutes left to go, you can start to see the anodization separating from the edges of the piece and the bubbling action is slowing down.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710812 - 03/28/10 04:17 PM Attachment (43 downloads)

After the 45 minutes, the piece is rinsed off with water and cleaned up with a green scrubbie before sanding.

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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3710821 - 03/28/10 04:20 PM

Dan you are doing a stand up job You stole my thoughts,cant find em,make em

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tim53
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3711015 - 03/28/10 05:47 PM

Well, I'll be dipped!

-tim.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: tim53]
      #3711056 - 03/28/10 06:04 PM

Yep! I was amazed that oven cleaner would actually be able to do this. It also goes a long ways as well, so far I've only used about 1/2 a can on the 3 pier cap pieces. The fumes are probably a lot safer than dealing with Phosphoric acid or Drano too. Actually, the lemony fresh scent of the oven cleaner makes the garage smell quite nice

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3723566 - 04/04/10 12:27 AM

THIS JUST IN!!!

The seller finally received some information about this telescope from the person who had the telescope when Mr. Clark passed away. This answers a couple of nagging questions!

"Maynard Clark was an expert machinist and he made everything on the scope, including the mirror that he ground himself..."

So, he did make the mirror. I have not had first light on the mirror since the mount was in such rough shape the telescope was unuseable. But, if the design and build of this telescope is any indication of the quality of the mirror, then, as Clint said, this mirror might be a Lulu!!!

It's still up in the air about the legs - the only parts that may have not been made by him (except the Hurst motors and Boston gears). They look exactly like Cave Legs, but if they are Cave Legs, he somehow got some 'blanks' and drilled the leveling holes and pier column stud holes himself since they are not the same size of standard Cave Legs.

"I'm sure he built it in California before they moved to Sedona many years ago..."

This kind of helps date the telescope, except that I don't know when he was in California or moved to Arizona. Maybe somebody can help out with that info.

"I don't remember a finder scope and as I recall, Maynard simply pointed the unit to the general area of the sky he wanted to look at and then tweaked the alignment until he had his object in site."

So, there was never a finder! I plan on acquiring a '60's or early 70's finder similar to the 7/8 x 50mm Cave Finders from the same period. If you have one and would like to depart with it, please send me an IM!

Thanks!

Dan


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3723908 - 04/04/10 09:19 AM

Good deal Dan,you definitely have yourself a one of a kind there

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3724804 - 04/04/10 07:04 PM Attachment (40 downloads)

The Polar Alignment scope was giving me a hard time - the objective and eyepiece mount were stuck on hard and I couldn't get it apart. Today, I soaked it in some warm water and finally got the objective cell and eyepiece mount off. Here's an exploded view before cleaning it up.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3724811 - 04/04/10 07:07 PM Attachment (46 downloads)

The objective is about 46.5mm but has "1.69" written on the side. It has a small clamshell and some small pits, probably from being outside for years, but it will do fine for its purpose. The cell is brass.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3724826 - 04/04/10 07:15 PM Attachment (51 downloads)

This is the inside of the tube, looking through the focus mount hole. After I sanded the outside, I hosed the tube off and when I washed out the inside, a little bit of paint started flaking off. So, I took the power washer to it and got off as much as I could. When it comes time to paint, I'm going to see what can be done about this...

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3724844 - 04/04/10 07:25 PM Attachment (44 downloads)

Here's the pile of finished aluminum pieces, paint removed, de-anodized and sanded up. It's getting pretty close to paint time!

There are still quite of few parts at the local machinist who was supposed to be done last Friday, but obviously that didn't happen!


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3727795 - 04/06/10 08:04 AM

Looking good Dan

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3749700 - 04/16/10 10:39 PM

A little update! Got the parts back from the machine shop in Tucson - Western Drawn Machine Shop!

The Dec. shaft area that was rusted, cleaned with Evapo-Rust was milled less than 1/64" to smooth out the pits from the corrosion.

The RA shaft bearings were removed from the RA housing with no damage.

The RA Shaft sleeves that go inside the bearings were removed using a press to allow the RA ring gear assembly, including the RA circle and back flange to be removed.

I have already de-anodized the RA and Dec shaft housings and started sanding them in preparation for powder coating.

Other parts are soaking overnight in Evapo-rust.

At this point, I have ALL the stand and mount parts on hand, and just need to sand them down. Bob Burns is going to make a replacement spider reinforcement ring for the tube as well as a focus back to accept 2" CAT type focusers. The leg leveler knobs were never found in the back of the old F-150 pickup, so he is also going to make a new set of knobs and leveling bolts. Thank you Bob!

I think the time line is going well to complete this project in time for Mt. Pinos.

I'll post some new pics tomorrow!


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3750586 - 04/17/10 02:16 PM Attachment (40 downloads)

Here is the RA Circle with it's internal ring gear and clutch assembly. This entire package fits inside the 1" thick circle. The grease had dried up but after soaking overnight in Evapo-Rust, it was soft enough to bop apart carefully with a rubber mallet.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3750594 - 04/17/10 02:21 PM Attachment (35 downloads)

The Dec Shaft is ready for finish and polishing. My theory for the two holes on the end is that they are for 10-32 bolts to be used as a toe saver. That's what I'm going to do with it anyway! The flange on the end is welded to the main shaft.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3750601 - 04/17/10 02:28 PM Attachment (45 downloads)

With many parts of this scope, it takes a close look at the parts to see how it was put together. With so many years of dirt and corrosion, sometimes it's easy to miss the detail. For example, this closeup of the RA Circle shows it's retaining ring on the backside. When it was threaded into the RA Circle, I thought it was just a machining line, until I looked at it under magnification to see that there was a groove and worked it loose.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3750609 - 04/17/10 02:32 PM Attachment (36 downloads)

When I got this scope, the mount was entirely seized up, so it was nice to put the RA Shaft and the Latitude Adjuster back together temporarily just to test it out

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3751241 - 04/17/10 10:18 PM

Great progress Dan! Keep the updates coming.

That ring gear looks the same as the two on my Cave (and probably yours too).


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: PiSigma]
      #3751302 - 04/17/10 10:49 PM Attachment (28 downloads)

It's the same size of the Cave ring gear, but there's no teflon slip clutch inside, the design is a little different from Cave on the scope itself between the RA and Dec drives. The Dec ring gear is adjusted by a phenolic ring and 6 spring loaded tension bolts on a back plate (not shown) in the picture below. The RA ring gear, it's a little bit more complicated and I'm still cleaning the assembly up but it looks like it's pressed onto a steel machined piece and the slip action is done with a some wafer discs between other sections (more to come on that later - it's awesome!).

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3751304 - 04/17/10 10:51 PM Attachment (40 downloads)

Today was "Polish The Shafts" day. Just like I did with the Cave 8" Model B - 180, 220, 320, 400, 600 and 1500 grit paper followed by polish on both shafts. They're done!

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3751526 - 04/18/10 02:08 AM

They really look nice, Dan. Where do you get 1500 grit paper from?

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: seryddwr]
      #3752109 - 04/18/10 12:23 PM

It's GatorGrit 1500-b waterproof from Ace Hardware.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3752609 - 04/18/10 04:55 PM

Ah, Thanks.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: seryddwr]
      #3753316 - 04/18/10 10:51 PM

Today was Inventory Day! With the entire scope disassembled, I decided to make a spreadsheet of every piece and fastener. When it was all done, there were 241 line items totaling over 565 parts and fasteners! For each piece, the spreadsheet tracks the Item Name, Quantity, Material, Paint Required and Description. This will be very helpful when batching together the parts for powder coating as well as cross-checking my existing and yet-to-order inventory of fasteners.

Some parts were counted as 1 for quantity, such as the focuser, finder (yet to acquire) and spider which I built earlier.

I can't wait to start putting this scope back together - it's been so long!


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3757191 - 04/20/10 04:40 PM Attachment (36 downloads)

After seeing the wonderful polishing job Jon is doing on his Cave 10" Custom Super Deluxe, I am leaning towards polishing the aluminum parts that were never painted instead of powder coating them a metallic silver.

I tested what can be done on the top of the Dec circle, which was actually painted black, and it came out pretty good. The process involves sanding up to 1500 grit and then polishing with compounds and finishing it up with jewelers rouge.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3757476 - 04/20/10 06:54 PM

Wow Dan, that looks really nice. It's a lot of extra work and in the end it's up to you but I'd vote for some polished parts.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: PiSigma]
      #3757820 - 04/20/10 10:34 PM Attachment (45 downloads)

I'm going to go for polishing instead of silver powder coat. Here's a test area I did on the pier which is made out of aluminum. I am using Dico Products polish wheels and compounds. The test area took about 20 minutes for the rough polish which is part one of a 3 part polish. This may also be an excuse to get a new POWER TOOL because there are better tools out there to do this with than my little Makita drill!

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3758439 - 04/21/10 10:11 AM

Very nice Dan your almost there,shes gonna be a beauty
I like the polishing too


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3759815 - 04/21/10 08:08 PM

Dan, you really deserve that (aveman Award, Wow I hope you have it done and are coing on the 12th of August!!! I for one will keep looking. I bet that Clark guy is one happy dead astronimer I sure would be... Kudos to you!!!

your pal Clint


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #3760165 - 04/21/10 10:51 PM Attachment (51 downloads)

If I don't have it finished by August, then you can call me a SLACKER!

This whole project has certainly been a challenge, but an enjoyable challenge. Obviously, Mr. Clark spent a lot of time designing and building this telescope and I feel I should give it my best in its restore no matter how long and hard it might be.

I just wish I knew more about the history of it, because sometimes I got to wonder if some parts were painted after he built it and if he did those changes. For example, some parts where wet painted black but why would he do that if the RA and Dec Shafts, the pier cap and mirror cell were anodized? It seems some of these parts were painted after the telescope was assembled, which just doesn't make sense to me. Restoring it to its original appearance is awfully hard to do without knowing anything about it...

But, ya can't go wrong with polished aluminum!


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clintwhitman
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3760552 - 04/22/10 03:34 AM Attachment (41 downloads)

After owning much polished Aluminum. IE Harley Davisons and Triumphs. If it is not clear coated after polishing two thing must happen. Either the the owner takes up Aluminum polishing as a second hobby or to turn chalky white and the owner gets mad and spray paints it. This will even happen to Anodized aluminum if you dont wax it once or twice a year.
(avemans 1988 FLHS Still in the cave a goin strong.

Edited by clintwhitman (04/22/10 03:42 AM)


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #3762742 - 04/23/10 12:55 AM Attachment (52 downloads)

I'm going to take it on! The initial process of bringing a chunk of rough aluminum from an 80 grit finish to jewelers rough polish is a lot more work than it is to maintain that polish afterward.

The pier column had the largest surface area to polish and the rest of it will be a piece of cake

Edit to add: Hey! You can see me in that reflection!

Edited by Datapanic (04/23/10 12:56 AM)


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3766138 - 04/24/10 08:38 PM Attachment (42 downloads)

Got a little bit done today - the lower and upper pier cap base, RA forks and RA shaft housing! I have some fasteners on order that should be here Tuesday to finish this part of it.

The metal polishes up pretty good but some of the surface has some gouges and pitting that polishing can't hide. I guess you can call it the 'weathered' look.


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3766894 - 04/25/10 09:30 AM

Quote:

Got a little bit done today - the lower and upper pier cap base, RA forks and RA shaft housing! I have some fasteners on order that should be here Tuesday to finish this part of it.

The metal polishes up pretty good but some of the surface has some gouges and pitting that polishing can't hide. I guess you can call it the 'weathered' look.


"Patina" Dan is the word you are looking for Weathered is more for fence posts Looks great dude cant wait till it's done Dang I,m honored just to to be watching this come about,from an old spider web encrusted has been,to the beauty it once was,real nice work Dan

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3770526 - 04/26/10 10:20 PM Attachment (47 downloads)

Yesterday, I finished up the RA shaft assembly and installed it to the RA shaft housing. This includes the RA circle, internal slip ring, gear and back housing, adjusting bolts and springs and a few other parts. I'll install the motors after the Dec shaft is complete. My routine is now to polish up sections of pieces at a time and then assemble them. Polishing the pieces to a shiny appearance takes a lot of time!

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Ham Radio
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3771122 - 04/27/10 09:01 AM

Boy that is sure going to look great when you get done!!

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PiSigma
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Ham Radio]
      #3772395 - 04/27/10 07:13 PM

That really does look incredible - almost like it's chrome plated steel. I know how much work that is to achieve that level of smoothness and all I can say is - Wow!

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: PiSigma]
      #3772918 - 04/28/10 01:22 AM

I wish the Telescope Fairy would come by and finish the polishing! It's a lot of work!

It does looks like chrome but there are imperfections from the age. Depending on the distance and angle, you could call it a 5 footer.

There are some parts still to be made, but at this point, it is completely polishing and putting it back together.

A long time ago, there was a 24" Newtonian inside the Smithsonian Science and Technology Museum that had a polished aluminum mirror. It's no longer on display, but I paid a pilgrimage to it every time I went downtown.


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3772928 - 04/28/10 01:31 AM

Shining up the Dec Shaft Housing was a 2 day project, it's all done, but the Dec Motor Drive Back Housing still needs to be polished. Then, the entire Dec Shaft assembly can be installed onto the mount.

I'm not sure how Mr. Clark installed the Dec Circle on the Dec Shaft - it should be fixed and any adjustments could be made by moving he entire Dec Motor assembly. But, it would be nice to know how he aligned the cradle to the circle. It's something to give a little thought-time to and make sure it's done right...


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3772932 - 04/28/10 01:34 AM

Quote:

I wish the Telescope Fairy would come by and finish the polishing! It's a lot of work!




Oh My! What ever you do, don't google
Telescope Fairy


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PiSigma
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3773301 - 04/28/10 10:06 AM

If you Google it now your thread is the second result....

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: PiSigma]
      #3777100 - 04/30/10 03:52 AM Attachment (49 downloads)

It's been one step forward and two Hurst DA motors steps back. I got to the point of finishing the polish on the Dec Shaft housing and installing the RA motor gear assembly on the mount. It ran for about 30 minutes and then seemed to loose its torque! I adjusted the pressure on the RA slip ring and got everything just right, but the motor gave up, I guess if you were a motor made in 1964, you would have reservations about turning things too. Swapped the Dec motor for it, since it's the same and it just doesn't have the torque that the factory specs say this motor should have! I swapped capacitors just in case, even though they rarely go bad and that didn't help either. Even running the motors all by themselves with no gear contact at all showed that they have seen their days So, it's off to find some surplus replacements on the net - Hursts still sells them, but they want $175 for them! I've seen them on surplus sites for about $100.

In other news, me and the Telescope Fairy had an argument about who was going to polish the Cave Legs. She won, so I dropped them off at "Don Jose's Polish" for a professional job. The 3 legs should be done next week!

It's kind of tricky figuring out how this scope should work, since when I got it, everything was frozen and locked tight. One exciting thing I figured out tonight is this mount has a driven RA pointer! That's really good if you use setting circles to find things - no need to reset the RA circle every time you want to find something new.

Oh yeah - I also paid a visit to Elliot's Electronics, a surplus supplier of stuff from days gone by for various electrical parts for this scope - the illuminated setting circle pointer lights, indicator lights, switches and a small all-aluminum project box to be used as a wire and capacitor junction box. I'll make it fit and pretty!

Edited by Datapanic (04/30/10 03:57 AM)


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crazyqban
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3777199 - 04/30/10 06:34 AM

Dan, that is one sweeeeet looking mount...

Sergio


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Darenwh
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: crazyqban]
      #3777207 - 04/30/10 06:39 AM

Dan, I think you deserve the Overachiever Of The Year Award for this one...

That is just so very nice...


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3777508 - 04/30/10 10:29 AM

Sorry to hear about the motors Dan,but she still looking great

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3778264 - 04/30/10 04:16 PM

Thanks Guys!

I ordered the new motors from Aptec Electronics - they had 2 of them for $100 each. They should be here early next week I had my eye on them for a while just in case and nice new shiny motors will look a lot better anyway. I hope they are exactly the same as the originals and fit the mounting blocks!


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3780603 - 05/02/10 12:53 AM Attachment (34 downloads)

Today was kind of a "get out and work on the yard instead of that [censored] telescope" day, so all I did was mount the Dec circle back on the shaft. Loctite 609 Green was used to secure the circle on the shaft once it was lined up to the cradle. This is mostly a cosmetic alignment as the Dec circle pointer is adjustable for the final calibration. It needs to cure overnight before it is installed on the mount...

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3782844 - 05/03/10 02:32 AM Attachment (46 downloads)

This pic shows a lot of business going on! First, the Dec shaft and its drive gear/circle are back on the mount In the center of the mount, you can see an unpolished aluminum project box that will be used as a junction box for the Dec Light and Motor wiring, then an umbilical wiring cord will go from there to another, yet to be purchased, identical project box mounted on the RA back housing assembly. I attached the Dec box with doublesided sticky tape just to get a visual idea of how it will look.

If you look back at the original wiring, the telescope had exposed terminals with 120v AC current on them, which scares the heck out of me, so the plan is to contain these connections inside the boxes and prevent any accidental shocks.

In other comparisons to the original, the setting circle lights were 12v DC, I decided to replace them with 120v AC red filtered neon lights - less wiring involved because they can tap off the RA drive motor voltage and no AC to DC transformer or battery is needed.

You can also see, if you look closely, the magnified RA setting circle indexes - really cool and I can't wait to light them up!

The replacement motors should be here tomorrow and I should get the polished legs back on Wednesday. There's still plenty to do, such as painting the tube and making all that electrical wiring stuff graceful, but I would say at this point, I'm about 2/3's finished!


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3782862 - 05/03/10 02:53 AM Attachment (57 downloads)

Another shot... (and I can't wait to do the wiring!)

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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3783537 - 05/03/10 12:22 PM

Dan put some wheels on that and you will be able to take it to Sturgis this year Looks great Dan

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3786948 - 05/04/10 10:59 PM Attachment (43 downloads)

Sturgis would be cool to see

Work continues...

The motors arrived yesterday and I tested and installed them last night. The dates stamped on the housings show they were made in 1980 - still kinda old. The original motors have been set aside for now.

Today, I polished up the cradle and secured it on the mount. Without the legs, which should be done by tomorrow or the next day, I can't put too much more on the mount without risking it falling over - but, there's no more mount pieces to polish. I just wish my dog Ada would stop sniffing the thing and smearing her wet nose all over it! Bad Dog!


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3787026 - 05/05/10 12:04 AM Attachment (42 downloads)

This is just a closeup of the RA Motor, motor mount block and RA worm gear block with the cradle above it. When rotated, the cradle clears all this by about 3/16th of an inch!

The polished aluminum and brass makes a nice contrast that photos just don't show...


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3787693 - 05/05/10 12:23 PM

Looking real nice Dan Glad you got the motor thing worked out,cant wait to see the "ole girl" back up and running

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3793039 - 05/07/10 11:52 PM

I was a bonehead on the motors! It turns out that the motor worm gear was binding on its shaft! So, after cleaning out and lubing up the worm gear and shaft, the motor turned freely without binding down on too much friction. A little mistake, but I do have 2 extra motors now!

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3793045 - 05/07/10 11:56 PM Attachment (35 downloads)

The Cave Legs are still at Don Hose Polishing, I guess they will finish them sometime next week. But that doesn't stop progress. Today, I worked on the RA pointer. Not too difficult a job - I wet sanded extra paint off the magnifying sections and then polished them up to get a clear chunk of plastic. Next the index pointer was sanded and painted and finally, I laid a sliver of white P-Touch label on the mark. When it's time to put together the aluminum electrical junction box all this will come together...

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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3793577 - 05/08/10 10:53 AM

Quote:

I was a bonehead on the motors! It turns out that the motor worm gear was binding on its shaft! So, after cleaning out and lubing up the worm gear and shaft, the motor turned freely without binding down on too much friction. A little mistake, but I do have 2 extra motors now!


Well that good that you still have the orignal motors,.and some spares The ole girl is getting close there Dan,real nice

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3795823 - 05/09/10 04:09 PM Attachment (39 downloads)

Here's a look at the Dec Motor Junction Box, or DMJB for short An initial smoke and blinking light technology test went good! The indicator light is only on when the Dec motor is running in either direction and the little switch can disable the light.

Out the front side of the box are the wires for the Dec Motor as well as the Dec circle light. Out the bottom is a wire harness that brings the power for the Dec Motor and Dec circle light. This wire harness will go down and around and into the RA Motor Junction Box (RMJB) where there will be a similar indicator light for the RA Motor running with an on-off switch, the setting circle pointers on-off switch and a main power on-off switch.

Inside the box are all the wire splices and the .47mfd capacitor for the Hurst motor.

I tried to keep the vintage look while upgrading the electrical by using old surplus 120v AC indicator lights, metal switches and the aluminum project boxes and avoid plastic totally.


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3797673 - 05/10/10 04:51 PM Attachment (38 downloads)

Here's a nice pic of the work in progress on the control panel and the RMJB. The panel is made of of plate aluminum and the little project box is mounted underneath. Wiring from the DMJB will run into the bottom of the box as well as the main power cords. I ran out of lights and switches and will pick some up whenever the legs are done at the polisher's - it's across town.

I also polished up the Polar Alignment Scope! The bracket arm has a hole on top where there was a dimmer control for the original illuminated eyepiece. I'm replacing that eyepiece, which has seen better days, with my battery operated 12.5mm Ortho illuminated reticule I bought from University Optics in the early 80's. But that leaves a hole on the bracket, so I'm thinking about adding more blinking light technology and putting one of those red indicator lights in there that only lights up when the setting circle pointers are on.


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3798502 - 05/11/10 02:11 AM Attachment (39 downloads)

Well, after doing a star test of the polar scope with my 12.5mm Ortho illuminated reticule I bought from University Optics, that eyepiece wont work, it needs to focus in further than the original Astrola brand 26mm Kellner! The options are to shorten the Polar Finder Tube or go with the original eyepiece. Obviously, I'm not going to chop the tube off!

This eyepiece was stuck on the polar scope when I got it and the eyepiece components are also stuck together. It's very dirty! I'm going to soak it overnight and hopefully be able to take it apart and clean it afterward.


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reddog15
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3798512 - 05/11/10 02:20 AM

Dan that looks fantastic,I,m sure when your done with that EP it will look brand new

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: reddog15]
      #3801890 - 05/12/10 05:11 PM Attachment (38 downloads)

I tried a star test again with the University Optics battery powered eyepiece and it only needed 3/16 of an inch in-focus to work. So, I decided to shorten the plastic sleeve that goes inside the base of the Polar scope and got a solution that works. The original eyepiece lens and cross hair reticule are too scratched up, and I still haven't been able to get it apart!

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3802613 - 05/13/10 01:02 AM Attachment (35 downloads)

The mount is almost finished, just waiting on Don Jose Polishing to finish the Cave Legs. In the meantime, I polished up the Mirror Cell Base and painted the other parts of the Mirror Cell. Here you can see the base with the adjustment screws and springs ready to accept the cell itself.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3802615 - 05/13/10 01:03 AM Attachment (35 downloads)

Next, the cell is placed onto the base and aligned with the adjustment fasteners.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3802618 - 05/13/10 01:04 AM Attachment (37 downloads)

Once everything was aligned, I flipped the whole assembly over and secured the base to the cell with the adjustment bolts.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3802621 - 05/13/10 01:06 AM Attachment (29 downloads)

Next, the (I don't know what to call 'em so I'm calling them) lateral cork lined support retaining 3-part rings are installed but not tightened up.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3802627 - 05/13/10 01:10 AM Attachment (35 downloads)

Throughout this project, attention to detail has been paramount! Obviously, Mr. Clark was extremely meticulous to detail and it would be impossible to restore this scope without respect towards that practice. There are small punch marks and numbers to align things to where they should be. Here, you can see a "2" stamped on the inside of one of the lateral cork lined support retaining 3-part rings. A corresponding "2" was also punched on the inside of the inner mirror cell.

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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3802633 - 05/13/10 01:12 AM Attachment (43 downloads)

One last shot of the mirror before it goes back in the cell. It's been bagged up for the past 3+ months! I've tried to focus on the edge of the mirror, but my little Sony camera wants to do otherwise...

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3802636 - 05/13/10 01:17 AM Attachment (40 downloads)

Next, the mirror is laid in its cell, the retainer ring is installed, and then the entire assembly is carefully flipped over again. Then, the lateral cork lined support retaining 3-part ring system is snugged up to the mirror and lightly tightened down and finally, the set screws which adjust the flotation system are snugged up against the mirror, ever so slightly. It wont be until star test time to know how tight or loose these things should be, but for now, I am going to keep it very light to prevent distortion of the mirror.

Note that you can see "Clark" written in pencil on the back of the mirror - I was very careful not to remove that.


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Datapanic
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3802640 - 05/13/10 01:18 AM Attachment (47 downloads)

And finally, the whole mirror and cell assembly! Sorry for the bad focus, my camera wants to focus on the mirror's reflection instead of the mirror itself.

The mirror and cell are safely stored away until they're ready to be part of the whole scope

Goodnite!


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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3803676 - 05/13/10 04:15 PM Attachment (34 downloads)

I can't wait to see how these turned out!

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3803795 - 05/13/10 05:23 PM Attachment (41 downloads)

Super Shiny!

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3803801 - 05/13/10 05:26 PM Attachment (43 downloads)

On the column... All the rough edges were ground down smooth and then the legs were polished. The underside and base where they attached to the column were left wire-brushed.

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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3803806 - 05/13/10 05:31 PM Attachment (45 downloads)

The mount is almost done! New leveling bolts and knobs are being made by Bob Burns. I also picked up the rest of the lights and switches to finish up the electrical work today as well.

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seryddwr
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Re: A Mystery Scope! new [Re: Datapanic]
      #3803849 - 05/13/10 05:51 PM

The Shiny One hurts us, precious! It blinds us!

That scope is... sniff... BEAUTIFUL!


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