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Equipment Discussions >> Classic Telescopes

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tim53
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Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA
My latest, earliest project.
      #4349718 - 01/29/11 11:31 PM Attachment (528 downloads)

3 of the 4 boxes of parts from the Tulley and Sons 3.25" refractor arrove today!

For those who didn't see it on ebay, this is what I purchased:

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4349722 - 01/29/11 11:32 PM Attachment (166 downloads)

Engraving on the tube, "Tulley and Sons Islington, London"

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jsiska
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Reged: 07/12/06

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4349739 - 01/29/11 11:39 PM

WOW!!! WHAT A CLASSIC!!!

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4349747 - 01/29/11 11:42 PM

As a horsey friend of mine used to say "it was rode hard, and put away wet!"

There are a lot of light-years on this telescope!

From the first pic, I could tell there was a lot missing to the mount, not the least of which are the tripod legs. Those hinges at the base must have attached to the legs. The hinges are a lot more massive than they look, and I bet the legs were massive too. I'm not afraid of making replacements, but I do want to see if I can find something to copy, at least a general idea of the styles used at the time it was built.

From what I've been able to find on the internet, Charles Tulley had two sons who went into business with him making telescopes. Prior to 1826, it appears Charles was in business by himself, then included his sons in the company name and engravings on the scopes in 1826. Charles died in 1830, and one of his sons in 1835, but it seems his remaining son(s) kept the name "Tulley and Sons, Islington, London" perhaps up until 1848.

I'm still missing a USPS box of parts including the cell and lens elements. But nobody I've corresponded with so far believes that the lens is original. The seller even said he thought it must be modern because it's too clear and white. I guess I'm hoping that, if it is a replacement, that it's an old one, and not something like a 30-yr old Jaegers (not that there's anything wrong with that!). I'll have to wait and see.

-Tim.


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Ducky62
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Reged: 10/31/10

Loc: The ATL
Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: jsiska]
      #4349753 - 01/29/11 11:45 PM

What does the objective look like and how does it see?
Put any light on it yet? (edit:Missed your last post.)
I was following the discussion on the ATS group about this 'scope.

Edited by Ducky62 (01/29/11 11:50 PM)


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4349758 - 01/29/11 11:47 PM Attachment (166 downloads)

Closer view of the mount, from the ad. I'm getting goosebumpy here, because I like puzzles (at least if they appear to have a chance of being solvable) and the pictures didn't show some of the neatest things about this mount that are still there:

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Ducky62]
      #4349765 - 01/29/11 11:50 PM Attachment (117 downloads)

Quote:

What does the objective look like and how does it see?
Put any light on it yet?




The objective and cell haven't showed up yet. Hopefully monday.

Here they are from the ad, though. And this is why the seller thought (and the ATS guys think) it's a modern lens. Seller said he never had it mounted in the cell and on the tube in the 15 years he's had it.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4349775 - 01/29/11 11:54 PM Attachment (118 downloads)

The two braces on the mount between the round thingy and the azimuth sector ("1st stage") were made by the seller. I'm thinking that the original was likely a wooden plate with bronze or brass fittings on it, but that it was likely rather simple. More about how it looks like it worked in a bit.

This is cool, and didn't show in the ad pics. The rod that the upper azimuth stage [edit: that should have said "altitude stage"] is mounted to has a rack and pinion with it, with a handle that would have been attached to a u-joint at the other end (one prong broken, handle missing):

Edited by tim53 (01/30/11 11:36 AM)


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4349784 - 01/29/11 11:58 PM Attachment (106 downloads)

It's kind of dark, but the pinion gear for that rack is between the two altitude plates mounted to a cutout in the sleeve that the rack moves up and down in.

An, from the ad pics, there was a rack and pinion for azimuth adjustment. I was delighted to see that the pinion is still there, but the handle is missing


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4349791 - 01/30/11 12:03 AM Attachment (115 downloads)

One sad thing: See the pinkish spots in the wood in the picture above, just below that rod that crosses over the scope cradle? That's the end of the cradle board, and I thought it was just old putty. But it's broken there. When I first saw it, I thought it was damaged in shipping, which seemed odd because the seller REALLY, REALLY packed it well. But then I looked at the pic above again and realized it's probably an old break:

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4349796 - 01/30/11 12:06 AM

A bummer, to be sure. While we're looking at the pic above, note the rod that goes across the board. It's got a knob on the right end, and is threaded on the left end. I thought a knob was missing, but it's a clamp. Tighten the knob and the brass ears it's attached to pinch the cradle from moving. I wish I could see what the end of that cradle looked like. It wasn't just another radius block like the one in the middle and the other end, because the board has the remnants of a rabbet at this end and there's none at the other end. Something to cogitate.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4349803 - 01/30/11 12:14 AM Attachment (111 downloads)

Here's another cool view. Underside of the azimuth sector, showing the rod and slider for what must have been the coarse altitude adjustment (the rod with the rack on it is for fine).

I had thought that the pinball-bumper-looking things at this end belonged on the upper side to keep the sector from swinging past the rack, but they are clamps to tighten agains two square rods (right one missing) that attach to the metal piece that slides back and forth along the rod. I wonder if there were handles on the ends of these rods to allow the user to grab hold and pull the scope up or down. But with two of them, how would you tighten the pinball bumpers when you got the scope where you wanted it?? So maybe they're just guide rods of some sort? Will need to figure that out!


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sgorton99
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4350132 - 01/30/11 08:33 AM

Now that is a classic! Looks like you are the right person to own this scope - have fun!

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Joe Cepleur
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/18/10

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: sgorton99]
      #4350346 - 01/30/11 11:17 AM

Any speculation about the design of the unique mount? It certainly supports that long tube well, to prevent sagging, and it may also be resistant to vibration. It could also be more durable than a mount with a single pivot point (important when working with brass), easier to aim, and it would have all the range of motion necessary for pointing out one's window. Wonderful contraption, whatever it's for.

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Joe Cepleur]
      #4350383 - 01/30/11 11:33 AM

Hi Joe:

While the seller thought it had been some sort of ship's telescope or that it was part of a castle, I quickly recognized that mount as an early 19th century altazimuth mount for astronomical use. Unfortunately (so far) I haven't found any pictures of any Tulley mounts quite like it. Elements of it can be seen in other mounts, of course, but a couple of things I think I need to see at least a picture of a mount like it to be able to replicate missing parts.

What I'll probably do, while I'm restoring the mount (doing as little as possible to the original mount, but replicating missing parts so it can be made functional), is make a set of rings to mount the OTA on one of my Super Polaris mounts, so I can use it.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4350448 - 01/30/11 12:02 PM

I don't think I mentioned before, but other Tulley scopes I've seen pictures of have a finder scope mounted to the tube in the usual place at the eyepiece end, using brackets similar to the one supporting the focus knob. But there are no holes in the tube at this end, and it doesn't appear at first glance that any have been filled, either.

-Tim.


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clintwhitman
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4350457 - 01/30/11 12:05 PM

Tim Quite the contraption!! I love it, has all the ear marks of a great antique telescope for sure. Man its old and wonderful for sure. The lens looks bigger than the cell, might be the camera angle? Well I think this is one of the "look at" telescopes anyways, You know you set it up in the parlor to look at because it is so cool looking. If you get to look through it it just an added plus!! Anyhow I am glad it found you. If anyone can put it in order you can...
Thanks for the posts and keep us posted!!
(aveman


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #4350475 - 01/30/11 12:12 PM Attachment (110 downloads)

Thanks Clint!

I think it's the camera angle that makes the lens look bigger than the cell, but I'll have to wait to make sure. The seller said he never mounted it because he didn't have a clue what order and which direction the lenses should go.

Here's a pic that Peter Abrahams scanned for me from Pearson 1829, of a 3" Tulley on an altaz mount. Not very similar to this mount, but handles, racks and cranks look along the same lines


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4350484 - 01/30/11 12:17 PM

I should add that my impression is that this mount is a newer mount than most I've seen pictures of. Note, for example, in the scanned picture, the user would have to go around to the "front" of the tripod to coarse adjust the altitude with that crank midway up the tripod. And any coarse azimuth adjustment would require picking up and moving the whole telescope.

The ebay mount looks to have had a swivel (beneath that round thingy midway up the pier) for coarse azimuth, and the coarse altitude would be via the lower altitude stage. Then, knobs or cranks near the eyepiece would allow manually tracking for an hour or so (I'm guessing, of course). Moving to new objects wouldn't require moving the whole telescope.

-Tim.


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akman1955
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4350615 - 01/30/11 01:10 PM

Nice one Tim.. can't wait till you get the lense. john

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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4350690 - 01/30/11 01:48 PM

Tim,

You do have that pier with the center section that you say looks like it pivots for azmuth? If you need any gear adapters to control position from the eyepiece, we both know where to go looking...Joss' house. Gramps has everything geared and extended to everything else everywhere all the time.

Can you identify the type of wood? You'll want to match that if you need to. I'd like to know your opinion of what finish it may have had. Hopefully it is originally a clear form that showed grain, and has just darkened through the years. That scope would look so awesome with the wood grain against nicely patina brass/metal works (just an opinion).

Neil


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mikey cee
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: apfever]
      #4350697 - 01/30/11 01:55 PM

Tim....As per your first pic how does it stay balanced? Looks way front end heavy. Or is the pier real heavy and the tube assembly without lens and cell rather light? Mike

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PiSigma
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Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: akman1955]
      #4350849 - 01/30/11 02:54 PM

Wow, that's neat. It will interesting to see if you can find any pictures or drawings of this scope.

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: PiSigma]
      #4350946 - 01/30/11 03:36 PM

Neil:

Yeah, Gramps probably had the gears, and if so, they're probably in that shed, but getting hold of Joss has been difficult, and I just got postponed this morning until this afternoon for perhaps the umpteenth time! At some point, I'm just going to give up on any further acquisitions from this guy and PM his email to anybody who's interested. I've lost track of the time I've invested in this already.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: mikey cee]
      #4350952 - 01/30/11 03:39 PM

Quote:

Tim....As per your first pic how does it stay balanced? Looks way front end heavy. Or is the pier real heavy and the tube assembly without lens and cell rather light? Mike




There's got to be a rather substantial, squatty tripod or pier that's missing. I may be building something soon to serve temporarily as a tripod so I can set the scope up in the parlor (yes, our house is old enough to have two parlors - a formal and a "family" (they didn't call them "living rooms" in the 1880s) - and this scope will be in the roomier family parlor).

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4350954 - 01/30/11 03:41 PM

...in the first pic, the round thingy that has the hingest attached to it looks like the tripod cap of other Tulley scopes I've seen pictures of, even down to the turned beading around the edge and the brass plate at the bottom for stiffening.

-Tim


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Dan /schechter
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/21/06

Loc: Long Beach, Calif.
Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351077 - 01/30/11 04:40 PM

Can`t wait to see it in person.

Dan


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Dan /schechter
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/21/06

Loc: Long Beach, Calif.
Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351092 - 01/30/11 04:49 PM Attachment (94 downloads)

Hi Tim,

In genreal, very old glass that I`ve seen has a distinctive green tint. I`m attaching a photo of a O. Hempel 90mm objective from around 1850. I hope the green shows.

Dan


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Dan /schechter]
      #4351127 - 01/30/11 05:06 PM

Hi Dan:

Can't wait to show it around! I think it's interesting that the lens you show is about the same thickness as the elements of the Tulley scope's lens. I don't know if it would appear green from the viewing angle of the seller's pic, above.

It would sure be nifty if this turned out to be the original lens, but it will be cool even if it's an old replacement, I suppose. I wonder if that's possible, and that this particular scope dates closer to the end of the period they used "Tulley and Sons" in the late 1840s?

Were there any other markings on the lens elements on your lens? That looks like pencil? Seller of the Tulley scope says there aren't any markings on it.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351367 - 01/30/11 06:42 PM Attachment (80 downloads)

I like the way wingnuts were made for this scope. Here's the big one for the coarse altitude:

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351401 - 01/30/11 06:54 PM Attachment (66 downloads)

Underside of the round gizmo. This is where I think coarse azimuth lived. The pier has a wingnut near the top, right under this thing, that bears against a compression plate on the inside of the pier that must have locked the scope in coarse azimuth. But this projection on the bottom of the round part is too short to reach the lock mechanism (which is about 3" down inside the pier). There's obviously some part missing that bolts onto the threaded end of the square shank sticking down from the round, turned part (that's only about an inch and a half long). But why? Why wasn't this one part that fit inside the pier, held there by the weight of the scope?

Also, there are wear marks near the edge of the big round wooden part, like there was a bigflange here. But there's no place to mount anything, and having metal wearing against wood with the weight of the scope on it doesn't make sense. So, I wonder if this is "damage". But what caused it?

Mysteries!

-Tim


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351413 - 01/30/11 06:57 PM Attachment (64 downloads)

Here's a closeup of the wingnut near the top of the pier that looks like it must have been an azimuth lock.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351425 - 01/30/11 07:02 PM Attachment (65 downloads)

Here's a better pic of the fine altitude adjustment rack and pinion, and cool u-joint on the end of the shaft.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351442 - 01/30/11 07:08 PM Attachment (65 downloads)

Here are where the user controlled the fine adjusments. On the right is the end of the shaft that turns the altitude rack and pinion. One ear of the u-joint is broken off and two new holes have been drilled. But the other half of the u-joint and the handle for the adjustment is missing. Left of it and below, is the mounting plate and shaft (broken?) for the rack and pinion for the azimuth sector, the rack of which can be seen to the right of the altitude u-joint. The two screws at the edge of the rack sector board appear to have been to repair a crack in the brass here. The board is also split at this point. Should this be welded/brazed? or should I just leave it, maybe at least glue the split in the board?

I won't do anything until I've had feedback from the ATS folks.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351452 - 01/30/11 07:11 PM Attachment (57 downloads)

Ooops, should have used this pic of the altitude pinion and u-joint. So purdy!

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351462 - 01/30/11 07:15 PM Attachment (67 downloads)

Focus knob. knurling is almost worn off!

-Tim.


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Tarzanrock
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Reged: 12/07/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351494 - 01/30/11 07:26 PM

Hi Tim:
Great telescope! It is nothing shy of beautiful. I hope I can see it at Mt. Pinos in August.
Bill


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tim53
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Reged: 12/17/04

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351528 - 01/30/11 07:40 PM Attachment (60 downloads)

Pier section and tripod cap with hinges.

The hinges are 3" wide and about 3/16" thick - really massive puppies. The holes are threaded, so the legs would have been through-bolted to them. The center post is threaded and the pier screws onto it. The hinges are radiused just right, so they belong to the mount. The top side is cleaner than the bottom, so I believe the legs fit on the hinges on top. There wouldn't be any room for the hinges to fold if the legs were mounted on the underside of the hinges.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351548 - 01/30/11 07:50 PM Attachment (53 downloads)

tripod cap detail, showing beading similar to Tulley scope on ATS forum

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351554 - 01/30/11 07:54 PM Attachment (60 downloads)

Here's one of the hinges folded all the way down as far as it will go. This, and the fact that the upper side of the hinge is cleaner than the lower, has me thinking that the tripod legs were attached on the top of the hinges. There's room to fold legs up against the pier, depending on how thick they were.

-Tim.


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Lew Chilton
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/20/05

Loc: SoCal
Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Dan /schechter]
      #4351584 - 01/30/11 08:07 PM

Quote:

Hi Tim,

In genreal, very old glass that I`ve seen has a distinctive green tint. I`m attaching a photo of a O. Hempel 90mm objective from around 1850. I hope the green shows.

Dan




If mememory serves, soda glass was used to make the old lenses, hence the green tint.

I think I remember reading that the Mt. Wilson 60- and 100-inch mirrors were made of soda glass by the St. Gobain glass works in France.


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Dan /schechter
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/21/06

Loc: Long Beach, Calif.
Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4351992 - 01/31/11 12:29 AM

Hi again Tim,

No other markings. You are correct in your reasoning that the green color shows deeper when you look into the edges.

Dan


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Dan /schechter
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/21/06

Loc: Long Beach, Calif.
Re: My latest, earliest project. *DELETED* new [Re: tim53]
      #4351993 - 01/31/11 12:29 AM

Post deleted by RLTYS

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Dan /schechter]
      #4352018 - 01/31/11 12:52 AM

Thanks Dan. I'll be on pins and needles until that other box gets here!

And thanks to everyone else who posted on here today. I was shooting and posting pics so fast I missed your posts until I just looked back at the thread!

Thanks! This is fun!

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4353846 - 01/31/11 06:37 PM

This is interesting. I wonder if this fellow is still around? (maybe a CNer knows him?)

J. A. Gould, 1986, in Letters to the Editor of the BAA:

"Burnished into its cell and hence not readily removable, its crown element is quite clear and lacks the intense green colour of so many old object glasses."

...but I'm trying hard not to get my hopes up that the lens (that should be arriving today) is original. I swear, I'm not!

-Tim.


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actionhac
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4353965 - 01/31/11 07:28 PM

Real interesting scope Tim, especially the mount configuration. What do you suppose it was built for? calculating or measuring distance/speed of a horizontally moving object?
I can't wait to see the lens when you get it. Focal length might help with the identification and the actual diameter.

Robert


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Dan /schechter
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4354074 - 01/31/11 08:06 PM

Hi Tim,

Go to http://www.sil.si.edu/DigitalCollections/Trade-Literature/Scientific-instruments/intro-roan.htm

Click on explore this collection
Then click on browse by types of instruments
Click on Astronomy
Scroll to Charles Chevalier and click
Scroll to page 26 and look at the mount. It has some similarities to yours.

Hope this helps,
Dan

Edited by Dan /schechter (01/31/11 08:07 PM)


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Dan /schechter]
      #4354145 - 01/31/11 08:38 PM

Hi Robert and Dan:

This is definitely an astronomical telescope. It does seem that the mount dates to sometime in the first half of the 19th century, as I don't see too many scopes after that time with these intricate altazimuth mountings. Dan, the one you pointed to probably illustrates why so few of these survived to the present - there's so much to break and lose!

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354445 - 01/31/11 10:42 PM

I looked around and I see what you mean, early-mid 1800's astronomical. Really cool and it must be very rare.
This is also similar
http://www.sil.si.edu/digitalcollections/trade-literature/scientific-instruments/files/51671/imagepages/image26.htm

I just noticed Dan's post is going to take you to the same place!

Robert

Edited by actionhac (01/31/11 10:50 PM)


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354471 - 01/31/11 10:54 PM

What a find! And, the lens looks pristine.

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354492 - 01/31/11 11:06 PM Attachment (66 downloads)

Hi folk units!

The final box has arriven at the house today! Everything survived in good condition (the seller packed everything very securely).

In it were two more of those cool wingnuts, and 2 (or three) small screws for holding the lens cell to the tube:


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354501 - 01/31/11 11:08 PM

...and I realized that these wingnuts must hold the OTA to the "saddle".

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354508 - 01/31/11 11:10 PM

Tim have a look through this cyclopedia:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/basic_connect?qsearch=cyclopaedia+of+telescope+makers&version=1

Robert


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354509 - 01/31/11 11:11 PM Attachment (56 downloads)

These two copper straps look to have held the tube to the cradle, made by the seller, probably.

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354516 - 01/31/11 11:12 PM Attachment (72 downloads)

Lens cell:

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354539 - 01/31/11 11:23 PM Attachment (72 downloads)

And it took me several minutes of deep cogitation to figure out how the cell goes together. You see, the part on the left in the pic above is small enough to just about fall through the part on the right. Maybe even just small enough. And it's too small for the lens to fit within it.

BUT

it fits perfectly inside the end of the tube, with the flange you see here in the left picture on top acting as a stop to keep it at the end of the tube. The part on the right screws onto the tube with the little screws in the bag with the wingnut. Those screws are short enough that they don't impact the part on the left, which is inside the tube where they attach.

Now this is the goosebumpy part for me. The lens is exactly the same OD as the OD of the part on the left, so it served as the inner lens support.

But, Hark!, you might say! "The lens is loose in the cell itself, so it can't be the original lens!"

To which I retort, Aha, but the retaining ring is missing, and must have had a sleeve that held the lens elements laterally and was put into the cell with the tube pointed zenithward, and screwed in place.

Like this exploded diagram (though I wasn't brave enough to stand the lens elements on edge):


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354544 - 01/31/11 11:26 PM

Oh yes, that's the eyepiece between the cell and the lens. It's surprisingly large aperture.

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354563 - 01/31/11 11:33 PM Attachment (76 downloads)

Hokay...

Now, here's the lens on edge. I tried to get it to look as green as I could, but I couldn't. Both elements are clear white glass.

But there are a couple reasons I think this is the original lens. First, it's exactly the same OD as the back of the cell that fits in the tube. Second, when I put the cell parts together where it looked like they lined up, the lens was just a tad below flush with the sky end of the cell, with enough room for the retaining ring (the exposed part of which was pretty narrow, with a knurled edge in the few Tulley pics I've seen online).

Overall outside diameter of the lenses - 3 5/16", so 3 or 3 1/4" aperture


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354572 - 01/31/11 11:37 PM Attachment (71 downloads)

The lenses aren't pristine. The crown looks pretty good, though there are foggy dirty or (cringe) fungusy areas. I tried to use the eyepiece as a magnifier to see if there were bubbles in the glass, but the surface (outer) isn't clean enough to tell.

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354575 - 01/31/11 11:38 PM Attachment (65 downloads)

The flint is far grodier, and I sincerely hope it's not (but fear it is) fungus-attacked.

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354595 - 01/31/11 11:46 PM Attachment (68 downloads)

It might look a bit worse than it really is, since I was holding the lenses up to the room light to take the picture.

I think it's clear enough that I can try it out, though I'll need to fabricate a retaining ring before I can. I have spacer foil that I can use (and will, before I try to use it).

Any recommendations as to how to clean the lenses? If that's fungus, will it come off at all? Do I need to do anything to make sure it doesn't advance?

Final pic of just the optics:


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4354609 - 01/31/11 11:57 PM

Quote:

Tim have a look through this cyclopedia:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/basic_connect?qsearch=cyclopaedia+of+telescope+makers&version=1

Robert




Thanks, Robert. I came across that site last week, while I was poring over the internet in search of information.

There's also someone selling plates from an old book (Pearson?) on ebay right now. If you search for "telescope picture" you'll find them. It makes me want to cry to think they're cutting up a volume of plates like that!

So far, that one attributed to "Varley" resembles the Tulley the most.

there's another tulley on the ADS photos page, but it's on an equatorial mount, and dates to 1844, which looks to be newer (Tulley, rather than Tulley and Sons).

There were a couple other useful hits on that site, though. One was a letter to the BAA about 25 years ago by a guy with a Tulley OTA, who seemed to know quite a bit of the history of Tulley. He said his lens was clear, not green tinted.

And another site I lost track of, that had a page of Scopes listed with prices. It was odd in that the text was about reflectors, but the price sheet was for the refractors.

Oh yeah. The tube is almost exactly 48 inches long, so the FL must be 50 or more inches. The focuser only travels about 3 inches, though. ...and the eyepiece is threaded, but the focuser tube isn't threaded, so there must be a drawtube missing (the ATS pictures show an accessory case with long tubes - eyepieces and drawtubes?). I could go downstairs and measure the tube and the eyepiece threads, I suppose...

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4354818 - 02/01/11 02:53 AM

You can use bleach or hydrogen peroxide to kill the mold/fungus.
I would start by flushing the surfaces with full force ambient temperature water from a faucet so not to shock the glass. This will blast away most of the clinging debris.
Mix 80% distilled water 10% rubbing alcohol 10% hydrogen peroxide and a drop of dish washing soap.
Soak cotton balls in the above solution and gently drag across the lens surface only once and drop it in the sink and do again with a new one. Continue until all four surfaces are done and rinse with distilled water. Shake off the drops and pat dry with a clean very well worn cotton dish towel.

Robert


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4357981 - 02/02/11 12:16 PM

In re-reading through this thread this morning, I noticed I goofed!

I have the crown and flint elements mislabeled. it's the crown that's the most dirty, not the flint. And it looks as though it's the sky side of the crown that is dirty - the inner face is relatively clear (as is the inner face of the flint). The side of the flint open to the tube's interior is also dirtier than the side facing the crown, which makes sense.

That's assuming I have the order and arrangement of the lenses correct this time! I'll try to take better pictures later, perhaps when I take them out to clean them (thanks, Robert!), but I believe that the crown is biconvex, with the steeper curve being on the inside. The flint is concavo-convex, with the convex being nearly flat and facing the eyepiece.

That sound right?

Also, when I do get to where I'm ready to reassemble the lens (which I won't do until I have made a replacement retaining ring, even if it's only a temporary replacement), do I use foil spacers? And if so, how thick should they be? I have an envelope of Edmund foil, but I haven't looked at it to see if it says how thick it is.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4362124 - 02/04/11 02:07 AM

WOW glad I checked out his thread very interesting.
I'll bet 3" back then was as bright as an 8" today, especially where I'm at, give all the city lights etc.. and I thought my scope was old !

Also I always wondered about the fungus or mold on glass, when searching on EBAY for camera lenses they always say "No Fungus", never seen any myself but perhaps it grows more in damp climates.


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Dan /schechter
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4362155 - 02/04/11 02:45 AM

HI Tim,

Usually you can tell which element is the crown because it is the thinner piece of glass and depending on the design has two convex sides. The flint is usually thicker than the crown with one side concave and the other almost flat. The concave side (called R3) faces the crown and its curve is almost a negative match to the radius of the crown (R2). R1 is the side of the crown facing the stars.

You can tell which side of the crown is R2 because it is the side that closely matches the curve of R3. You can see Newton`s rings when R2 and R3 are a close match and are barely separated.

I do have to state that I have not examined any pre 1860 objectives and what I`m saying may not apply to your objective if it a very unusual design.
Also. what I have described is a crown forward design. Some objectives are flint forward (most Brashear objectives are flint forward) and if yours is of that design, what I have told you is backwards. Once you make a retaining ring, try it both ways and see which is better.

I hope this helps,
Dan


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Dan /schechter]
      #4362592 - 02/04/11 10:29 AM Attachment (75 downloads)

Thanks Dan. I think I have it figured out right now. When I get time to clean the elements, I'll try setting it up on a table under a fluorescent light so I can look for fringes - like I did when I shot this pic of my 6" f/15 Jaegers.

I still marvel at some of the machining on these old instruments. The pics I've seen of other Tulley scopes show that beautiful knurling around the front of the retaining ring. You know, that narrow bead where the knurling appears to curve around the profile of the bead? How did they do that??

So many interesting things to learn!

Hi Rich. I have a 35mm Zeiss lens on one of my Exakta cameras that's got fungus on one of the inside elements. When I took it to a camera repair shop about 25 years ago, the guy just looked at it with some kind of horror on his face and said it would be more expensive to repair than the lens was worth, assuming it could be cleaned and the glass isn't etched. That's the first time I ever heard that fungus can etch glass!

So, I'm kind of concerned about the Tulley lens. One thing, the fungus on the Zeiss was on an inside face, where humidity would persist and allow it to grow, perhaps. The patches on the Tulley lens are on the outer R1 side of the crown. So I guess I'm a little hopeful that it's more likely just dirty. The inner surfaces where the crown and flint face each other are the cleanest surfaces.

-Tim.

Edited by tim53 (02/04/11 10:46 AM)


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4366291 - 02/05/11 08:30 PM Attachment (70 downloads)

Hi all:

I did a preliminary cleaning of the lens. I didn't get too crazy with it, just used a little detergent (couple drops) and dragged a cotton ball across the surface with the water running.

Most of the measly crud that was visible in the "grody" view of the crown above cleaned off, but not all of it. There are a few smallish spots toward the edge, in particular, that seemed to be etched into the glass. I'll have to locate a good hand lens and look again under a good light source to know for sure.

There are three patches of what I think is adhesive from foil spacers (now gone) on the inner surface of the flint, about 120 degrees apart. It even looks like one of these might still have been on the lens in the seller's picture of the lens and cell parts on a cardboard background.

These, and the way the lens cleaned up as well as it did, had me thinking that, shucks, this must be a modern lens. But take a look at this picture, where I tried to do what I did with the Jaegers lens in the previous post. I didn't see any rings (I didn't use any spacers either, so maybe I can try that next), but I got this generally birefringent rainbow across the whole lens (stretched in this picture, but it's easy enough to see without the stretch) that looks like similar pictures I've seen showing internal stresses under crossed polarizers.

Now, I didn't use crossed polarizers, but I think (from my Crystallography labs of 34 years ago, pretty rusty!) that they might show anyway.

I shot this picture under the same light and exactly how I did it before with the Jaegers (only using my newer iPhone to take the picture), so I'm thinking this is real. Particularly the bright spots and color flare from the left edge - I don't think it's a reflection of the bulb, because the Jaegers didn't show them. But I'll go down to my shop and take another couple of pictures and see if by rotating the lens, the blobs rotate with it.

Still old glass? Wish I knew. Does someone?

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4366375 - 02/05/11 09:13 PM Attachment (67 downloads)

Well, it's real! I shot it again twice, rotating it between shots, so the blotches aren't anything to do with the light source.

The technique works so well it shows some fingerprints I got on the lens while trying to look at it with a magnifying glass. I washed both elements again after I took these shots.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4366394 - 02/05/11 09:24 PM

Yikes, thanks for the heads up about the fungus Tim, I'll have to be extra careful buying any kind of used glass (expecially from humid regions. Sorry I havn't a clue as to determining old from new glass. All I know is the antique bottles my grandmothers used to collect had turned green.

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: RichHux]
      #4366421 - 02/05/11 09:41 PM

I should also note that some of the gray blotchiness that seems to be all over the glass is probably the styrofoam I set the lens on. Beyond the glass, the white surfaces all came out black, like with the Jaegers rings above.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4367317 - 02/06/11 11:53 AM

I should also note that, after seeing my fingerprints on the lens so dramatically in the pic above, I'm going to wear disposable latex gloves when I handle it from now on!

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4367446 - 02/06/11 01:00 PM

Are the lenses coated? it looks like just a blotchy coating which won't affect anything.
If not coated possibly a film on the surface that rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alcohol) should remove.
You will need spacers between the elements to see newton's rings. R2 and R3 will have a slightly different radius and the elements will be closer together in the center but you don't want'em to touch.
The Edmund spacers are a good place to start, I'm guessing they are .005"

Is it a Fraunhofer or a Littrow?
http://bobmay.astronomy.net/refractor/Refrdesign.htm

Robert


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4367947 - 02/06/11 04:15 PM

Hi Robert:

Mind you, I'm no refractor expert, but this is what I've figured so far:

Lenses don't look coated. I think the blobs you see in the pics above are discontinuities in the glass. they're not visible to the naked eye. The glass seems clear. The edges of the lenses are ground fairly smoothly, though there are little chips all around the edges of the lens that look like they were from cutting the glass originally.

The crown has two different curves, and it looks like even the steeper shorter curved side doesn't contact the concave side of the flint in the center, so I'm not sure which way it needs to go. The flint is slightly convex on the other side. Both the longer radius curve of the crown and the convex side of the flint had crud on them, most of which cleaned off. But that has me thinking that the other two surfaces faced each other so they didn't get dirty so easily. Of course, the concave side of the flint is where the residue from the spacer foil is, too.

I still think this is old glass, based on the appearance in the pics above and the inference that the blotches are indicating internal properties of the glass.

I've also seen one writeup of a Tulley lens that said the glass was clear, not green. Additionally, I've been thinking about some of the things I read in an obituary about Charles Tulley, saying how his artistry was wasted because he had to reject so many lens blanks due to inconsistent glass that only came available recently. But the obit was written in 1831, and Tulley died in 1830. So, since he apparently made optics until his death, maybe some of the more "modern" (at that time) glasses were available to him?

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4368002 - 02/06/11 04:44 PM Attachment (55 downloads)

Sounds like a Frounhofer. R2 is only a slightly shorter radius than R3 but quite a bit shorter than R1.

The glass being water clear can still be old, I have some old lenses that are clear.
The glass door knobs on the outside of my house have turned a rosy purple but inside knobs are clear, exposure to the elements? UV? me not know.

Edmund 3"f15 objective is 76mm x 1143mm and coated. I don't think Jaegers sold a 84mmf15 uncoated so that doesn't leave much unless it's fairly old.

I read somewhere about glass color being selected by some to help with chromatic A, I guess green might be a color choice to improve visual contrast?
My oldest lens is clear white (below)

Robert


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4368070 - 02/06/11 05:17 PM

Well, I do know a little about purpled glass! A Model A friend's dad used to sell headlight lenses for all kinds of antique cars. People used to gravitate toward the Model T lenses that were purple, so he'd put a set on the roof of his house for a couple of years. So, it must be UV radiation damage that causes that.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4381877 - 02/12/11 06:44 PM

I just came back from an industrial metals place near Bob Hope airport that sells remnant metals for reasonable prices. I picked up some brass tubing for making things like drawtube extensions and eyepiece parts, with the idea that I'll be able to at least use my modern eyepieces for testing purposes until I can find some vintage eyepieces.

I hoped to also find some thick-wall brass tubing about 4" OD to make the replacement cell/retaining ring or, failing that, some flat stock thick enough to machine down (but that would produce a lot of chips!), but the closest thing they had to something I could use was a huge chunk of 6" bar stock. My bigger lathe is an old 9" Champion Blower and Forge, and it would struggle with that big a diameter, and they didn't want to cut it down (it was about 4 feet long, which I would have probably needed to trade my truck in to pay for it!)

So, if I can't find some brass that size, I may make a temporary retaining ring out of aluminum, and replace it later.

Next, I headed over to my favorite hardwood store for some mahogany to make tripod legs for the mount. Found a beautiful 6' length of 2x6, with grain very similar to the other wood parts. After I'm done here, I'm planning on sketching up a tripod very loosely based on other Tulley tripods I've seen (all straight or tapered stock, no elaborate curves), and build something that will let me assemble the scope in the parlor, without the lens for now, and without worry that it might fall over.

I puzzled for a long time over whether the hinges were original or not. Another Tulley owner back east emailed me saying he didn't think they are. I think they are, or at least they're old. The base disk is mahogany, like the rest of the wood parts, with a brass ring at the bottom to help stiffen it. There are no other mounting holes anywhere in this disk. The only hole is about a 2" diameter hole in the center that doesn't look as though anything was mounted to it. I'll unscrew the pier and check to see if there's anything suggesting it was clamped down from the inside to something, before the pier was screwed on. I'll also remove one of the hinges and see if the wood underneath is clean or shows signs of other mounting points.


-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4381962 - 02/12/11 07:40 PM

So...

No other holes in the disk at the bottom of the base pier to suggest that it was mounted to anything but a tripod via those hinges. Also, the hinge pins have the same square nuts on their threaded ends that are on other parts of the mount, so they must be original to the mount.

Next thing I did was to carefully put the mount together on the folding table downstairs where the parts are, measuring each piece as I went. When I got it together (without the tube in place), I realized that it was about at the right height for comfortable viewing either by a medium-height person standing, or someone sitting on a tall stool. The table is 30 inches tall, so the tripod must have been 30-36 inches tall. Considering the legs would have been 3" wide and probably 1 1/2" to 2" thick, and the hinges fold down to an angle of 45° before reaching their stops, this must have been a pretty impressive tripod! I think my Mahogany "stick" is big enough to make the legs, but it might not be! And the hardwood store is closed by now and won't be open when I'm off work until next saturday.

I can get started, though. First, I'll scribble up a drawing and see how long the legs need to be, and how big the spread will be when it's put together.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4381984 - 02/12/11 07:56 PM

Further...

If the tripod was 36" high, to the top of the base disk, then the legs would have to be an odd 50.9" long. But if I make the legs a more "logical" 48" long, the tripod is now 34" tall. That seems more reasonable to me, so that's what I'm going to work toward.

...but I probably still don't have enough of the mahogany to make the cross bracing between the legs. I'm probably okay for the legs themselves, if I taper them and alternate them drawn on the 2x6.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4382565 - 02/13/11 03:35 AM

Tim all this work and cool parts without photos is killing me,,,,,

I can tell you Dan's 4" lens in his 1860 something Clark is as white and clear as spring water. Also the coolest looking wafer thin Crown I have ever seen. A real work of art.
Cant wait to see the work your doing Tim

Clint


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4382566 - 02/13/11 03:35 AM

Tim all this work and cool parts without photos is killing me,,,,,

I can tell you Dan's 4" lens in his 1860 something Clark is as white and clear as spring water. Also the coolest looking wafer thin Crown I have ever seen. A real work of art.
Cant wait to see the work your doing Tim

Clint


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #4383189 - 02/13/11 11:47 AM

Hi Clint:

Well, in more correspondence with the Tulley owner back east, and me perusing Ellison's figure 12 in his article in ATM 1 about mounting the lens, I'm now convinced that my lens is not original.

Rats!

It might not even be all that old. My discolorations in the fringe pictures above might indeed be due to coatings that are failing. The crown is definitely not as thin as most early lenses seem to be.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4383209 - 02/13/11 11:56 AM

...I did buy it with the knowledge that the seller didn't think the lens was original. I bought it mostly for the interesting and unusual mount!

So, I still feel good about what I paid, and I'm not worried about putting too much money into it, because I'll make what I can myself.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4383867 - 02/13/11 04:35 PM

Okay, so I'm fixin' to make some tripod legs, and it occurred to me to check the threads in the mounting holes on the hinges. They "look like" they ought to be 5/16-18, but a bolt won't go in more than about a 90 degree turn. With some horror I wondered, "Whitworth"??

Anybody know what the standard screw sizes were in the early 19th century? Certainly, the Society of Automotive Engineers was a few years off, right?

Tim


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4383988 - 02/13/11 05:32 PM

You might try a British motorcycle or automobile shop and see if Whitworth will fit, should be close, Whitworth has a 5/16-18 but 55deg. included thread angle and radiused edges.
I bet you could chuck your bolt in the lathe and work it over with a file to make it fit.

Robert


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4383997 - 02/13/11 05:39 PM

Hi Robert:

I'm planning on making the bolts on my lathe out of brass bar stock, and try to match some of the heads of bolts elsewhere on the mount. So, I could certainly grind a bit to the shape of the threads, if I find they're different. I saw some mention of "RAS threads" in reference to eyepieces. Wonder if the Royal Astronomical Society had some sort of standards? And would that apply to bolts?

The other possibility is that the threads are something close to 18 tpi, like maybe 20? Or 16? (though they don't look that coarse).

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384007 - 02/13/11 05:46 PM Attachment (54 downloads)

Every serious reproduction operation should begin with a set of technical drawings, right?

Here's mine:


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384009 - 02/13/11 05:47 PM Attachment (56 downloads)

too:

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384013 - 02/13/11 05:48 PM Attachment (48 downloads)

three:

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384023 - 02/13/11 05:50 PM

As you can see from that last sketch, I decided that it made the most sense to make the legs 48" long, so the height of the tripod will be 34", putting the eyepiece at a reasonably comfortable height for someone standing or sitting on a tall stool.

I could make them 51" long, but that seems "unnatural" so it's 48. But I do have enough stock, and I haven't fired up the band saw just yet...

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384082 - 02/13/11 06:22 PM

So I just cut the third leg and stood it up next to the other two. And it's 6" shorter!!

But, unlike most times when I goof like that, the long ones are too long! Whew!!!

-tim


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384134 - 02/13/11 06:37 PM

Cut it off twice and it's still too short?

http://www.britishfasteners.com/threads/bsw.html

Robert


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4384196 - 02/13/11 07:07 PM Attachment (53 downloads)

Well, it's worse than that. I just butchered a $100 piece of mahogany and the whole thing doesn't make sense.

Folding the hinges down, they only go down to 45". When I put a leg against one of the hinges on my bench when it's folded down, it extends a ridiculous distance out from the center of the tripod:

Distance of foot from center of tripod would be 34+4 (radius of the base disk), so the tripod would scribe a 66 circle.

But here it is, so you can see how absurd it looks:


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384197 - 02/13/11 07:09 PM Attachment (52 downloads)

But if you ignore the spread of the legs, this is what it looks like folded up (upside down, like the old Celestron tripods):

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384206 - 02/13/11 07:14 PM Attachment (46 downloads)

So, I'd rough cut the legs so that the tops would approximate the shape of the hinges - 3 1/8" wide at the base and about 2 1/2" wide at the end of the hinge.

For hoots, I tried this arrangement, which gave a more reasonable looking angle for the leg (more of a 30-60-90 triangle). If this was the way they went together, the legs could fold together like a conventional tripod, and the hinges would be the stops to keep them from spreading out any farther than this. But having the legs project above the base disk like that while in use seems to look silly to me:


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384220 - 02/13/11 07:22 PM

The leg is of course too long for that configuration. Most damning, though, is that the hinges are cleanest on the side that I thought the legs were mounted to, like in the first picture. Also, there are punch marks on the hinges next to the holes, like they were numbering them. And why would they do that on the side that would be visible?

The only other thing I can think of is that the legs had an angle block under them so they'd be steeper when folded down. Or, a metal bracket held them to the hinges that's missing now.

My wife suggested I look for pictures of old surveyor tripods to see if I can find anything like this.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384275 - 02/13/11 07:43 PM Attachment (52 downloads)

I need help, folks.

I can't figure this thing out, so I'm going to have to put it away for a while.

Here's the base with one of the hinges off. I took this last night to show my new Tulley friend back east.

Hinge removed, to show that there are no other mounting holes on top of the base disk besides those for mounting the hinges and the pier:


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384289 - 02/13/11 07:50 PM Attachment (46 downloads)

Here's a closeup, with the hinge off:

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384294 - 02/13/11 07:52 PM Attachment (52 downloads)

And here's the underside of the base disk:

Edited by tim53 (02/13/11 07:53 PM)


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384298 - 02/13/11 07:54 PM

So, what's a muthuh to do?

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384304 - 02/13/11 07:56 PM

heck, the stain looks like this tulley tripod web page

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384308 - 02/13/11 07:59 PM

Could it be that the underside is really supposed to be facing up? The legs would mount on the inside of the hinges and would kinda look right in that case. But that all depends on how the column mounts to the base...

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Datapanic]
      #4384317 - 02/13/11 08:03 PM

Yeah, I wondered that, too. But there are no other holes in the disk, and it's got a beaded edge that looks similar to the way the tripod on a tulley on the ATS photos page is beaded.

The base pier threads onto the flange in the center of the disk, with the hinges radiused to fit around it.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384348 - 02/13/11 08:22 PM

Well, I'm totally and thoroughly flummoxed.

My head is going to explode if I don't put this thing away for a while and think about something else.

...if only a wedge block were between the hinge and the leg...

but then the thing would be so wide across the top that it would STILL look silly!

Take me now, Lord!

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384381 - 02/13/11 08:40 PM

Quote:

Well, it's worse than that. I just butchered a $100 piece of mahogany and the whole thing doesn't make sense.

Folding the hinges down, they only go down to 45". When I put a leg against one of the hinges on my bench when it's folded down, it extends a ridiculous distance out from the center of the tripod:

Distance of foot from center of tripod would be 34+4 (radius of the base disk), so the tripod would scribe a 66 circle.

But here it is, so you can see how absurd it looks:




Tim,

Your workmate looks as old as mine.

Mike


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actionhac
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384410 - 02/13/11 08:49 PM

If you did invert it would it mate up to the other round gizmo?

Why does it have the brass ring screwed to it?

I really think the hinges should be on the bottom, legs on the inside of the hinges.
And the pier like thing should project down with a shaft going to the other round gizmo (your terminology from earlier).

Robert


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4384465 - 02/13/11 09:18 PM

Holy cow, Robert!

You might be right!

I'm going to check those wear marks on the "D" again!

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384482 - 02/13/11 09:29 PM

Pics in a minute, but YOU WERE RIGHT!!!

I'll be able to sleep tonight! Thank you!!!

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384536 - 02/13/11 09:48 PM Attachment (57 downloads)

Pic 1, with the tripod cap upside right! Robert, my wife said she thought it should go that way too! She might have even said so before, but I was too wrapped up in thinking it was like the ad pic that I didn't listen!

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384538 - 02/13/11 09:49 PM Attachment (51 downloads)

pic 2

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384550 - 02/13/11 09:52 PM

...Now that looks Right!

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Datapanic]
      #4384905 - 02/14/11 12:59 AM

That does look right! man that thing is old!

You know, I'd bet the stub shaft from the "D" piece ends inside the base of the downward facing cone with a friction clutch (washer with a square hole) since the stub has a square boss sticking out of it.
And that long downward facing cone with the lock on the end possibly had the spreader assy. going into it? you could draw the legs together and it would telescope up into or out of the cone and locked?

Robert


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4384948 - 02/14/11 01:47 AM

Great project, can't wait to see the finished piece!

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: JJB]
      #4385458 - 02/14/11 10:09 AM

Thanks guys!

Robert, that makes sense to me, too.

-Tim


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Mike Conley]
      #4385647 - 02/14/11 11:48 AM

Quote:



Tim,

Your workmate looks as old as mine.

Mike




It's really old! My dad bought it not long after they came out. I use it almost more than any other tool I own!

I saw somewhere that you can still buy replacement parts for these. Mine is missing the bench dogs that go into the holes in the top for holding irregular pieces.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4385667 - 02/14/11 11:57 AM

To reiterate:

Dan and Robert: Thanks again for seeing outside the box I'd gotten myself into by not having the capacity to imagine that "base pier" extending DOWN rather than up from the tripod cap!

Looking at it now, it seems ridiculous that I was trying to make it work the other way!

Now that I've slept on it (and have work to distract me!), I can look at this again with a fresh eyeball and enjoy the thrill of problem-solving once again!

Something cool I thought about. Since the "right way" still puts the wooden "D" in contact with metal (the brass ring on the pier cap), and since there isn't a lot of wear there, it seems there must have been something between the two surfaces to act as a bearing and to prevent the wood from wearing. And the fact that there is signs of some wear (but not an excessive amount) shows that this bearing was lost or removed at some point.

What about a leather disk? The remnants of leather strap for the tube cradle are still there, but they're hard as rock and only exist under the clamps that held them on in the first place. A leather disk would have hardened or disintegrated a long time ago, and likely would have been discarded by some unknowing but maybe well-meaning owner at some point in the past 180 years, perhaps?

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4386112 - 02/14/11 03:28 PM

Tim,

Having worked with quite a few slip clutches with cork, I've found that cork last longer than a tootsie roll. I've seen it better than 40 years old and still good. You can get cork in large squares, try auto gasket material, and thickness. Meanwhile, consider anything, like plastic rings, to keep the sides apart. I suggest using TWO rings or more. That will let the rings slide against each other if they snag on any screw heads or other irregulatities. Otherwise you force one old face to turn on the ring and that might create snagging and galling unless you have one of those original contact surfaces baby butt smooth. For something 'original sounding' maybe two leather rings with a brass/copper ring between them for slippage. This is what most slip clutches have on one side with cork and brass.

Edited by apfever (02/14/11 03:32 PM)


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: apfever]
      #4386191 - 02/14/11 04:06 PM

Good suggestions, Neil!

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4397601 - 02/19/11 06:00 PM

Okay, I bought some more wood to make longer tripod legs!

...this time, I was smart (unlike last time). I spent a grand total of $6.15 on the new leg stock - three 8' 2x3 studs!

They will be butt ugly, to be sure, but they'll allow me to put the tripod and mount together so I can figure out how the center bracing worked.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4397721 - 02/19/11 06:57 PM Attachment (56 downloads)

And here they are...

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4397726 - 02/19/11 06:59 PM Attachment (108 downloads)

Closer

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4397767 - 02/19/11 07:14 PM

They're really tall!

Each leg I cut to 70" length, which should have put their tops at 5' up (30-60-90 triangles). Set up like that, the top of the tripod is right at eye level for me (I'm 6' tall).

This way, I can cut them shorter rather than having to grow them longer if they weren't long enough.

Now, it's time to figure out the center post locking system and spreaders.

I thought of something the other night while cogitating about this.

The square shaft on the bottom of the "D" would keep whatever was attached to it from rotating with respect to the D. I was thinking that this might have been used to attach a bearing plate to the bottom of the D so it won't turn... ...but why not simply screw a brass ring like the one on the top of the tripod cap for that?

So, I still don't know.

If I attach a dowel or rod to the bottom of the D here that the lock knob on the side cinches against, then turning the scope in azimuth the wrong way would unscrew the pier.

Thoughts?

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4397822 - 02/19/11 07:35 PM

Too bad you can't find a photo or drawing of the scope, it would be worth a thousand thoughts!

I think the D assy. ends with a washer and nut inside the spreader cone base. Then the spreader cone would have a telescoping shaft with the spreader arms going out to the legs. My guess would be retracted and locked with the legs out, extended out of the cone and locked when the legs are pulled together when the scope is put away.
I keep thinking similar to the way an umbrella mekagnizum works. Except your telescope probably predates the invention of the umbrella!
Why else would it have that cone thing?

Robert


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4398378 - 02/20/11 12:08 AM

Robert:

I think you're right again. The square shaft could be there to prevent the washer from unscrewing the nut when the telescope is moved in azimuth. That would make sense. If the Altaz head and tube are really up that high - or even if they weren't - the last thing you'd want to do is inadvertently lift it up off the tripod and have it fall.

One could put the D on the tripod without the downward cone screwed on, so you could get the washer on and tighten the nut. Then, you'd thread the long cone into place and spread the tripod legs and seat the "umbrella pole" in the cone and tighten the lock on the side of the cone.

I was wondering if the central pole was screwed onto the threaded end of the square shaft, but if it was, you'd unscrew the cone when rotating in azimuth. Also, you wouldn't need a lock on the cone, either.

So, the center pole must have only been inserted in the cone when the tripod was set up and the legs splayed.

=Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4400411 - 02/20/11 09:35 PM Attachment (105 downloads)

Put the temporary umbrella brace on today. ...using, wait for it... An umbrella center brace from a patio umbrella that busted up in high winds a year or so ago. Turns out the pole is just the right diameter - 1 1/2" - to fit the lock mechanism on the Tulley.

Anyway, here it is: Oops, wrong picture

Edited by tim53 (02/20/11 09:36 PM)


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4400423 - 02/20/11 09:40 PM Attachment (110 downloads)

The umbrella post has two brass heavy-wall tubes, OD=1.5", so I've used just that for now, but for the final product, I'm going to use it (where it's exposed), and a length of the dowel (where it's not) so the tripod can be folded for transport and locked in that position. Depending on how much it needs to move and if there's enough room in the cone.

Nother pic.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4400431 - 02/20/11 09:43 PM Attachment (104 downloads)

Before I braced the tripod, I put the "D" on it and took these pics. Sure thing, if I had a thick washer with an OD of about 2 or 3 inches and a square hole in it to fit that shank, I could secure the mount to the tripod so nobody could push it off accidentally.

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4400433 - 02/20/11 09:44 PM Attachment (97 downloads)

too

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4400447 - 02/20/11 09:49 PM

I think the tripod legs are still splayed out a bit too far, but I can fix that by cutting an inch or so off the leg braces.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4400748 - 02/21/11 01:09 AM

This is going to be a big attraction at Mt. Pinos!

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Datapanic]
      #4401766 - 02/21/11 02:48 PM Attachment (104 downloads)

I put the mount head on the tripod this morning. No OTA yet, as I realized that the seller didn't have it firmly attached, just resting on the cradle, and the original leather straps are long since ancient history.

Also, I still have to make the washer and nut for holding the D to the tripod, and you can probably see in the pics that it's front heavy with the mount on it and so it's tilting a tad that way. No way I'm going to put the tube on until I get that resolved.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4401767 - 02/21/11 02:49 PM Attachment (103 downloads)

A bit closer

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4401770 - 02/21/11 02:49 PM Attachment (104 downloads)

And closest, with better lighting (iphone 4).

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4401789 - 02/21/11 02:56 PM

Tube must have hung way off the back, perhaps like the tulley figure from Pearson several pages back. Because this thing is front heavy enough as is that I bet it would be a problem with wear on the base of the D unless the tube counterbalanced the rest of it.

I also wonder if the broken part of the cradle might have included a weight of some kind?

The tube has no holes for a finder in the usual place. But there are 4 holes on top at about the middle for something that's obviously no longer there. If that was a finder, it was pretty different from all the others I've seen. But would anybody have built an astronomical refractor with such a long FL without a finder? Or, did anybody make them with clamping rings in those days?

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4401802 - 02/21/11 03:02 PM

Here's a weird idea, one that I don't know would work or not...

Considering I got so wrapped up in the original picture that it didn't occur to me to try turning the tripod cap over, what if the coarse altitude braces (made by the seller) are too short, and the mount is supposed to point the OTHER way? Like a scissor jack?

Hard to picture it that way, but what if??

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4402811 - 02/21/11 11:07 PM

Realized something this evening, as I was measuring threads with a thread gauge (the 5/16-18 bolts are indeed that, but with something like Whitworth threads), is that the two braces made by the seller for the coarse altitude are too short. Because:

You can set the altitude stage to below horizontal by 20 degrees or so. I don't think this scope would have been intended for horizontal viewing, particularly if I've got the tripod height right - it's too tall! Over 6' up with the cradle horizontal.

Also, you can get it nearly vertical with those short braces, and that makes the square rod under the altitude lock poke out the back pretty far. You can sort of see this happening in the above closeup, far left. There doesn't seem to be any hint that there was anything on the end of this rod to keep you from being poked by it. It isn't actually sharp or anything, but it is only a 3/16" square rod, and unless it was painted with radium paint or someting, it would be hard to see in the dark.

Like I said above, though, I think the OTA projected pretty far back.

Which brings up the other thought I had. I doubt a couple leather straps would have held the tube without slipping in the cradle. So I'm wondering if there was some sort of clamp on the back of the cradle where it's broken off?

Still looking for comparable mounts or drawings to go from. But I can probably be kept busy duplicating some of the missing parts, where an example is still elsewhere on the scope. Things like bolts and threaded plates in the wood parts, that other coarse altitude lock rod, and stuff.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4402918 - 02/22/11 12:15 AM

Tim,

Just thoroughly searched the Library of Congress and found nothing. Have you seen this picture from 1822?

Tulley Refractor

Here is another one...

Tulley Scope

I am sure you saw this, not related, just Tulley

Tulley's bring BIG $ at auction

More you have probably already seen

Tulley History


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Steve_M_M]
      #4402932 - 02/22/11 12:24 AM

Yep! I've seen them all. I think the first one pictured has a similar tripod, at least in height and color. There's another one with a folding tripod on the ATS yahoo group's photo pages, but it's on an equatorial mount. Tripod is the same height as mine, though, and it's made with simple, straight mahogany legs attached to brass hinges under the tripod cap. The hinges on that one are on the insides of the legs, though.

Mine are interesting in that they have a radius on the wide part, but not on the narrowing ends. So, I infer they must have been mortised into the leg face, and the leg was similarly radiused (and thus the same width as the widest part of the hinge). Pretty cool what you can figure out from the attachment points!

The hinges all have punch marks on the inside faces. one of the top holes is marked with a single punch, the next with two, and the center of each hinge is numbered, with 1, 2 and then 3 punch marks! Wish I could find a signature somewhere! (besides the name on the tube, that is).

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4402935 - 02/22/11 12:27 AM

I've drooled over the Cary Newtonian images, because you can zoom in so far to see details of the bolts and cranks and other hardware.

The brass flat stock edging the wood parts is very similar to my mount.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4402945 - 02/22/11 12:33 AM

Yes, the Cary newton on the Tulley stand is very nice and the pictures and flash player would have been awesome if it had been the same mount. It does have similarities to yours that some of the others posted do not. It's amazing how different searches yield such wildly different results. I am sure you figured out that +Tulley +islington worked best without the words telescope, refractor, charles, etc.

I think you best bet for finding an exact picture is going to be a worldwide search of all pages of every book ever written. I am sure a picture is hidden in some book somewhere.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4403044 - 02/22/11 02:24 AM

Tim its taking Shape and looking very nice indeed. Dans wood tube Clark wood look right at home nestled it the branches of your mount.... Great job Cant wait to see the tube installed..
Clint


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #4403917 - 02/22/11 02:24 PM

...while I'm processing a big file at work, I'm browsing this website: Sciencephoto.com images

Haven't found anthying like my scope just yet (may not), but am kind of excited about this picture:

Flammarion Observatory, with altaz mount similar to Tulley mount in Pearson, 1829

I'm going to order a high res version!

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4406642 - 02/23/11 05:58 PM

While searching for cool pics, I came across a downloadable pdf file (in French, which I don't read) of the history of Flammarion Observatory. If you click on the picture with the caption "Histoire de l'observatoire en image" at this URL, and go to page 17, you'll see a beautiful picture of the observatory with an altaz-mounted refractor similar to the Tulley mount drawing from Pearson, above:

http://www.astrosurf.org/amis2camille/

From what I could gather from perusing the rest of their website, the scope is no longer at the observatory.

-Tim


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4411530 - 02/25/11 08:01 PM Attachment (48 downloads)

Today, I spent a couple hours trying to make a washer and nut to hold the mount head on the tripod. Went with aluminum for now until I find something that works, then I'll maybe make out of brass for keeps.

Made the washer okay, but the nut is driving me nuts! 3/8-16 stud on underside of the mount is whitworth or whatever they used in the 1820s, so I drilled the hole out for a 3/8-16 tap, tapped it, and then bored it out a tad to knock the tops off the threads, hoping that would be enough to let it fit on the stud.

Din't work.

So, I ran the tap back and forth, pushing it to the side as I went, to try to sloppify the threads and make it work.

Din't work.

So, I'm going to either have to find out what the thread shape is and grind a bit to cut that thread (I still haven't cut threads on the lathe before), find an antique tap and die set (right!), or take a 3/8-16 die to that stud (I'd rather not do that, and it wouldn't solve my problem elsewhere on the mount anyway).

Washer thingy is on the left, with part of the hole square to match the square shaft on the stud, other thingy is the nut that's driving me nuts.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4411643 - 02/25/11 09:11 PM

You need a thread pitch gauge Tim and find out what on earth you have there. In England 1820's they might not have standardized threads so manufacturers just did their own thing.

You may need to make your own fasteners. I restored a very old bicycle and went though a similar situation as yours. For temporary you can use a 3/8-16 nylon nut and it will "reform" to the odd thread.

Robert


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4411668 - 02/25/11 09:26 PM

Hi Robert:

I do have an excellent thread gauge. I was able to determine that there are 16 threads/inch, but of course the shape of the threads doesn't match modern. It's most similar to Whitworth (thanks for the link), but I doubt Whitworth was around that long ago.

The nylon nut idea is a fantazmagorical one! I'm going down to the shop to make one now!

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4411705 - 02/25/11 09:45 PM

AHHH while typing this, I see you already got here, but here it is anyway....

Tim,

Instead of trying to measure or count threads, take the vernier approach. if the 3/8-16 is close then mate the threads. Tilt the end of one bolt so the end threads mate into the other bolt. You can the track down the standard bolt and see if the old one is finer or courser and by how many threads it adds or subtract on full thread. This is easier than count and measure. This will tell you if you will ever find a match of the original or if it is Joe Blough's 1820 garage thread for the day. You also need to see what the thread configuration is, what angle the peaks and valleys make, some bolts are square threads and not standard angles.
Also what is the percentage of thread. Angled threads that go to a point at the peak are a 100% cut. Most tapped holes are not 100% cut. Most flutes in tapped holes are flat at the top, maybe a 75% cut. Bottom line is the count might be right, but the flute shape wrong.
Sorry, but your plight gives me a grin in a retro way. You wouldn't believe what Gramps has thrown at me. That clock maker press fitted some of the most impossible heat shrink matings that have no access for sepperation, not to mention the corrosion frozen parts. I've stripped set screws, drilled out screws, broke an allen wrench in one, used 2 jaw and 3 jaw pullers, used torches both propane and oxyass.
I did get the spring barrel off the clock drive so the drive could go in the diswasher with other gear assemblies and the trisodium Phosphate. As soon as I knock the busted allen butt out and drill out THAT set screw, I'll be able to run the washer load.
All part of the game and what satisfaction and elation in the results. OH, I also like to hit myself in the foot with a hammer because it feels so good when I stop.

Edited by apfever (02/25/11 09:47 PM)


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: apfever]
      #4411737 - 02/25/11 10:08 PM

Neil:

Sorry about that! ...I would have thought that, when all else failed, the good ol' Smoke Wrench (or oxyass, as you called it ) would come through! (an arc welder, by extrapolation, would then be a "Spark Wrench").

Robert:

That worked! Well, it might be a microtad loose on the threads, but it does hold the mount on the tripod securely. Now what I'll need to do is get some cork or gasket paper to put between the tripod and the mahogany base of the mount. I might even make two disks and sandwich a sheet of wax paper between them, so the slippage doesn't even involve the mount at all.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4413890 - 02/26/11 10:03 PM Attachment (48 downloads)

I taught myself how to cut threads on the Craftsman 618 lathe!

First, this is what I needed to make a copy of:


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4413895 - 02/26/11 10:06 PM Attachment (32 downloads)

Cause down here, both screws are missing (actually at least one is sheared off here).

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4413908 - 02/26/11 10:13 PM Attachment (36 downloads)

so, I took one screw out to take a look at it and try dupulizing it.

This pic is just to show all y'all that I do own a thread gauge (a Starret, no less!):


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4413931 - 02/26/11 10:27 PM Attachment (43 downloads)

So, I actually taught myself to cut threads, and thought I had figured out the number of threads/inch right. Came up with 1/4-20, but with the outer, maximum diameter being .262", not .25".

Okay, got the shank of the bolt turned to the right diameter and started cutting the threads. When I got them deep enough to where they looked like the bolt, I lined the two up together... and you know how two bolts with the same thread pitch go together like gear teeth? These didn't!

So, I checked with the thread gauge and they lined up fine with my new bolt, but not with the original.

Check this out: These puppies have 19 threads/inch! My gauge doesn't have a feeler that size, and my lathe can't cut 19 TPI.

So it looks like, in this case at least, I'm going to have to retap those remaining two holes and make new bolts with the same heads as the originals.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4413936 - 02/26/11 10:28 PM Attachment (43 downloads)

Okay, so this is kind of cool. The slot in the head of these screws isn't rectangular, it's v-shaped.

I'm going to have to grind a screwdriver down or use a chisel to put these in properly!


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4413939 - 02/26/11 10:29 PM

...but I'm still stoked that I can cut threads now!

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4414104 - 02/27/11 12:46 AM

Here is the whole enchilada:
http://www.watchman.dsl.pipex.com/thread.html

Robert


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4414136 - 02/27/11 01:14 AM

Cool!

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4414148 - 02/27/11 01:27 AM

It is but no 19tpi. Does show really only modern stuff and what you could find ready made. I sometimes cheat and buy screws the right size but the wrong head style and work it over to pass as an oldie. Doesn't look like anything close except that ASME, what ever that is, at least for that screw will be found and probably no taps and dies available.
If your old Atlas has change gears for threads per inch you might be able to juggle the gears to get 19tpi.

Robert


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4414694 - 02/27/11 11:30 AM

Robert:

I saw a few 19tpi threads on that list. BSP, I think it was.

I thought about looking at the Atlas manual again and seeing if there's a combination of gears that would get me 19tpi. If not, there's a couple options I can think of.

Number A: Maybe my Champion Blower and Forge 9" can do it. A quick look at the thread chart on the headstock will tell.

Letter 2: I could cut a new gear for the Craftsman. That would be another first for me, after learning to cut threads. But making gears is something I've wanted to teach myself anyway.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4414711 - 02/27/11 11:40 AM

Howsomever:

19 is a prime number, so somewhere in there I've got to have a gear ratio of 19:1.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4415280 - 02/27/11 04:30 PM

I can't believe this. Harbor freight's 7" lathe can cut 19tpi.

Not that I'm going to spend $400 to cut a few bolts!


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4415299 - 02/27/11 04:37 PM

My mistake. Everything has gone up. $500, and that's on sale!

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4416101 - 02/27/11 10:59 PM Attachment (52 downloads)

Took me about 4 hours to make two repro screws, but I like how they came out.

They go into a nutplate on the other side of the wooden azimuth sector board. Because the thread contact is only 3/16" or so - the thickness of the nutplate - I went ahead and cut 20TPI, but on the .262" diameter shank, rather than using a die on a 1/4" shank. A modern 1/4-20 bolt was a tad too loose, but it might have worked.

Like I mentioned, the slot is v-shaped. I mounted a v-cutting tool sideways in one of my tool holders on the Champion 9" and cut the v-grove by advancing the compound a few thou at a time.

-Tim.


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4492049 - 04/02/11 07:10 PM Attachment (44 downloads)

Today?

I made a bolt!

I had only one of these odd carriage bolts, 5/16-18 1820s British thread. A previous owner had used a brass square-head bolt for the other. They hold the telescope and altazimuth head onto the mount, via a pair of them cool wingnuts. The nuts fit the modern 5/16-18 bolt, however a bit loosely, but there doesn't appear to be any chance they'll strip off.

So, I made the new bolt with a piece of threaded rod and a scrap of flat stock to make the head. This is what I had to copy:


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4492050 - 04/02/11 07:11 PM Attachment (41 downloads)

Too, showing how thin that head is:

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4492053 - 04/02/11 07:13 PM Attachment (39 downloads)

Here, I've turned a step in the threaded rod to take the scrap of steel plate via a hole drilled in the plate:

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4492057 - 04/02/11 07:13 PM Attachment (39 downloads)

And here's the scrap plate on the rod:

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4492061 - 04/02/11 07:16 PM Attachment (38 downloads)

Next, I needed to weld it onto the rod with the smoke wrench. Came out uglier than I'd wanted it to, because I rant out of acetylene while I was working!

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4492067 - 04/02/11 07:18 PM Attachment (32 downloads)

Next, I put it back in the lathe and turned it to the right outer diameter, faced it, and filed a bevel on the edge to mimic the original

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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4492070 - 04/02/11 07:21 PM Attachment (49 downloads)

And here it is, with its buddies! I ground the weld down toward the square shank size, but since I ran out of gas, it's not finished. I'll also need to cut it to length, but this will do for now.

The bolts/wingnuts are sitting on the azimuth sector base plate near the holes they live in. The brass replacement bolt is on the right, and wouldn't have done much to keep the scope from falling off the saddle if the square head got through the hole in the mahogany!


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JWW
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4492096 - 04/02/11 07:35 PM

Very cool ... looks great too.

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: JWW]
      #4509699 - 04/10/11 07:11 PM Attachment (46 downloads)

Finished the carriage bolt!

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4509704 - 04/10/11 07:13 PM Attachment (40 downloads)

Doesn't look different, huh? It is, though!

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4509710 - 04/10/11 07:16 PM Attachment (46 downloads)

bolts in place

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4509720 - 04/10/11 07:22 PM Attachment (44 downloads)

the rectangular mortice is for a brass nut plate that my new brass screws thread into. But the holes were too stripped, so i had to make a new one and 2 more screws, this time with modern 1/4-20 threads.

the square rod on the right, that goes in the "pinball bumper" thing is also new, blacksmithed today!


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4509728 - 04/10/11 07:28 PM

An original part broke today. must have been metal fatigued, because it literally fell apart. I'll have to see if i can weld the brass, or if it's flat stock, replicate it. Either way, i don't have the materials in my shop, so it will have to wait for another weekend

-Tim


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actionhac
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4510264 - 04/11/11 01:32 AM

The way you made that odd carriage bolt was a great idea. Looks just like the original.

Robert


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Hamsterdam
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: apfever]
      #4523370 - 04/17/11 12:32 AM

From my experience with wood (puns are always intended, no matter what anyone says), and from your scan, the broken piece color really reminds me of mahogany. Its reddish, but not deep in color like cherry. Teak would have been a terrific choice with its resistance to moisture, but Im sure these pieces were well oiled before assembly. I could be wrong about the wood, Lord knows I've been wrong before, but it sure looks like mahogany, there aren't a ton of reddish hardwoods in common use now, or then. If by some odd chance it turns out to be a softer wood, all bets are off with what Ive said. In that case it could be one of several softwoods of that color....Im doubting, however that it is less than a fine hardwood.

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Doug76
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Hamsterdam]
      #4646032 - 06/18/11 02:14 PM

Tim, I have nothing to add that will help or hinder you in this project, but I wanted you to know I thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread and looking at the pictures.
Your doing fine IMO, and all I can add is "you go man!"


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Hamsterdam]
      #4647619 - 06/19/11 02:59 PM

Quote:

From my experience with wood (puns are always intended, no matter what anyone says), and from your scan, the broken piece color really reminds me of mahogany. Its reddish, but not deep in color like cherry. Teak would have been a terrific choice with its resistance to moisture, but Im sure these pieces were well oiled before assembly. I could be wrong about the wood, Lord knows I've been wrong before, but it sure looks like mahogany, there aren't a ton of reddish hardwoods in common use now, or then. If by some odd chance it turns out to be a softer wood, all bets are off with what Ive said. In that case it could be one of several softwoods of that color....Im doubting, however that it is less than a fine hardwood.




You're right. It's mahogany. I have a luthier friend down the street from me who I had take a look at it for me. He thinks it's a species from central america, which would have been available in the UK at the time it was built.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Doug76]
      #4647630 - 06/19/11 03:06 PM

Thanks Doug!

I haven't worked on this scope in a while, and I need to. Today, though, in addition to BBQing some burgers and watching some Dr Who on our theater system this afternoon, I have to replace the head gasket in my Model A!

Then, I have to get a scope ready for some astrophotography when I go to Utah in a couple weeks. I'm hoping to get the Cave 10" DK ready. It needs a decent primary baffle to boost contrast.

I need to find some heavy wall brass tubing about 3" ID and 3 1/2" OD, or so, to make a new cell for the lens on the Tulley. Haven't found anything quite the size I need online, so I may have to bite the bullet and buy a hunk of bar stock and cut most of that away. ...unless I can learn how to cast brass and machine that!

I've thought about making a temporary cell out of aluminum. That might make the most sense, as the lens is not original to the scope. And I intend to keep looking for a lens, maybe even an entire OTA, of the right vintage to put on the mount (keeping all that is original with the package, of course).

-Tim.


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gelkin
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4647875 - 06/19/11 06:35 PM

Tim,
Did you check Speedy Metals ?


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: gelkin]
      #4647924 - 06/19/11 07:15 PM

I don't think I have, thanks!

Looks like no tubing that big, bow bar stock even bigger than I'd need, so that may be just the thing!

Tim


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seryddwr
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4706066 - 07/22/11 02:16 AM

Any recent progress on this, Tim?

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: seryddwr]
      #4706455 - 07/22/11 10:35 AM Attachment (37 downloads)

Hi Greg:

No, I haven't worked on this in a while. I got side-tracked by a few other projects - a story in itself! And what the heck, it's related (it's at fault!) to the Tulley sitting idle, so I think I'll tell it here!

I bought 2 lathes last weekend, moved them and set them up to see what parts might be missing, so I can find those and get them up and running as soon as possible to make parts for the Tulley! (and other projects, of course).

I'm particularly proud of this acquistion - a 100+ year old Sebastian 9" treadle lathe. When I get this one operational, I can use it to be almost totally authentic in restoring the Tulley, because it's less than 100 years newer than the scope!


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4706475 - 07/22/11 10:47 AM Attachment (45 downloads)

cont'd:

So, on Saturday afternoon, while pouring sweat in the heat, and putting the South Bend 9" together (the other lathe I bought), I got a call from a gal I'd sent an email to about a month earlier in response to a CL ad for a Meade SCT for $100. Since I'd gotten no reply, I thought it was one of those too good to be true deals, and forgot all about it. until she called me and reminded me about it.

So, I put my tools down and dragged my sweaty self down to Torrance to look at this thing. It was a Meade 2120 (10") SCT, an LX5, with most of the standard accessories but no tripod or wedge. So, figuring that was a good deal, I bought it and brought it home. I've only looked in the box twice - first when I was checking it out, and 2nd just before putting the Cave 10" DK OTA on it when I put everything away in my shop on Sunday afternoon! I forgot to see whether it was an f/10 or f/6.3, even!

But I did manage to get both lathes together and hav ea pretty good idea what I need to look for and fabricate to get them running. The SB is missing most of the change gears, so I have to decide whether to buy new ones or look for a quickchange gearbox and lead screw for about the same price.

The Sebastian is missing a number of bolts and nuts. The bolts appear to be standard sizes (though the SAE didn't exist 100 years ago), but with square heads. I think I can probably replicate these by turning threads in some square bar stock. The nuts are mostly hex nuts with a really purdy round crown to them. Those can probably be made from hex bar stock.

Then, there's the treadle mechanism. The linkage and pedal structure is missing, but I think I can replicate those too, easily enough, from angle iron and round stock. My lathe is identical to this old catalog pic from around 1900:


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4706479 - 07/22/11 10:53 AM

I've seen a couple other pics showing the treadle detail, and there's a museum that has a similar Sebastian lathe (not identical, but the treadle is). I may send them an email asking for detailed measurements and photos of the mechanism for replication.

Finally, I was also planning on getting my Televue NP101is set up to take some ad pics so I could post them in S&S. I posted the ad, but ran out of time to set up the scope for pics, so I'll try to do that this weekend.

I need to free up some of my "toys" funds to continue with the restoration and homebuilding projects.

Timing is always bad, but this scope also caught my eye, as it's comparable in vintage to the Tulley, and is complete! My scope is missing most of the accessories and doesn't have an original lens. I could use this scope's accessories as a guide for making reproductions for the Tulley... ...if only I could afford it!

Harris and Son on ebay

-Tim.


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clintwhitman
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4706735 - 07/22/11 01:20 PM

Tim Incredible old lath. Bob Burns would want to get a peek at these!! Very cool... See you Thursday!!

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apfever
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #4706993 - 07/22/11 03:22 PM

HA HA TIM,

Yeah, total DITTO here. I got side tracked from the Gramps scope you shipped me when I had to set up my lathe that I got to work on the Gramps! And my lathe is very early also 1900's (19teens), not as early as yours. So total deja vu here. I'll get a current picture since I've got it set up in position in the barn shop now. Remember, these are classic antique scope restoration tools for classic antique scopes.


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seryddwr
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: apfever]
      #4707638 - 07/22/11 10:16 PM

I hope they don't tow your lathe, for parking in the "no parking" zone. That is a seriously cool lathe.

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GeneT
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4707642 - 07/22/11 10:19 PM

Didn't see it--but it is a true classic! Congratulations.

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actionhac
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: GeneT]
      #4708774 - 07/23/11 02:46 PM

Neato lathe Tim.

I tried out a treadle wood lathe once and liked it very much.
It was so nice and silent, all you could hear was the cutter shaving off the wood. And also I remember liking the "feel" I could tell when things were not quite right by the tread and the flywheel and adjusted my cutter angle and/or tailstock accordingly.
My wife really likes the treadle sewing machines too.

Robert


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Al8236
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: actionhac]
      #4709504 - 07/23/11 11:01 PM

Tim,
I love seeing this piece of history brought back to life.
There are not many of us left that could "make do" without all the modern convince,
If supposed civilization came to an end tomorrow you would be one of the ones to re-build
Al


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Al8236]
      #4709559 - 07/23/11 11:35 PM

Thanks guys!

I worked a little on the Sebastian this afternoon. Mostly, I need to replace missing bolts. But there are a couple other parts that I need to find or make, like the clamp for holding the tailstock on. longitudinal feed handcrank is broken, one on the compound is missing.

Bought a bunch of temporary bolts and stuff.

I may try to make the treadle tomorrow.

-Tim


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4710560 - 07/24/11 03:46 PM

Oh, wow! I think I'm within centons of having the Sebastian up and running! Going to head off to osh in a bit to see if they have angle iron in 6' lengths. If they do, I can make a treadle. Just need some rod ends that will pivot as bearings!

But let me clean up my mess and post some pix first.

Other thing is that the south bend 9", though not complete, is very clean! I'll take pix of it too, soon


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4710667 - 07/24/11 04:59 PM Attachment (43 downloads)

I'm close!

Here's the Sebastian, as assembled as I can make it. Everything is locked down, so now all I need is to make the treadle mechanism and I can try it out!


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4710670 - 07/24/11 05:02 PM Attachment (35 downloads)

And the South Bend:

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Al8236
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4711189 - 07/24/11 11:19 PM

Tim,
that South Bend is real close to the lathe that I used to learn lathe work in High School, but the one I used had the secondary flat belts replaced with a 3 speed trans. from a truck for speed changes.
Lot of good memories on that lathe, Could do some real nice work on it if you took care and time!


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Al8236]
      #4711249 - 07/25/11 12:20 AM

Yeah, I really like that South Bend. It's lighter than my Champion Blower and Forge 9", but it's got a longer bed, and of course parts and support are readily available for it. The Champion B&F is one of only a handful that is known to exist, and the company may have only made a few prototypes.

One thing weird about the Sebastian: There aren't any micrometer dials on it anywhere. They must have just measured and cut, measured and cut, until they got to the target dimension.

I had to chase the threads on the apron with a tap. The bolts and nuts appear to be more or less standard size, but the 5/16-18 threads are pretty tight with a modern bolt. So anyway, I chased the threads with a tap, but that old cast iron is VERY hard. I was worried I might break the tap at a couple points, so I kept it well oiled and took it slow.

I did find the angle iron and rod ends and rods I was looking for to make the treadle, but ran out of time to make it this weekend. So, weeken after CSPAMP IV will be my first opportunity to get back on it.

-Tim.


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Rich (RLTYS)Moderator
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4711413 - 07/25/11 06:22 AM

Come on folks, this is a forum for classic scopes not classic lathes.

Rich (RLTYS)


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Al8236
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Rich (RLTYS)]
      #4711671 - 07/25/11 10:42 AM

Sorry Rich!
Sometimes just get sidetracked
Al


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Al8236]
      #4711686 - 07/25/11 10:57 AM

Okay, I promise not to post lathe pictures unless I'm turning a telescope part with them!

-Tim.


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JoseBorrero
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4959077 - 12/09/11 11:06 PM

I'm really impressed how a scope arrived to the right person. Excellent Job! Tulley and Sons should be proud!

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Pollux556
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #4959497 - 12/10/11 09:44 AM

Tim,

This is very beautiful scope and interesting thread !


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: JoseBorrero]
      #4959499 - 12/10/11 09:45 AM

Thanks for the comments, Jose! I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't had much time to work on the Tulley in several months. Doing home fixit jobs and other telescopes, plus the MSL launch!

I keep watching the ad sites for another Tulley, at least an OTA with an original lens, but haven't seen anything in a while. Lots of things like Broadhurst Clarksons, but most are 100 years newer than the Tulley.

I'll get 'er done one day, though!

-Tim.


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Svezda
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Lew Chilton]
      #5211477 - 05/08/12 05:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hi Tim,

In genreal, very old glass that I`ve seen has a distinctive green tint. I`m attaching a photo of a O. Hempel 90mm objective from around 1850. I hope the green shows.

Dan




If mememory serves, soda glass was used to make the old lenses, hence the green tint.

I think I remember reading that the Mt. Wilson 60- and 100-inch mirrors were made of soda glass by the St. Gobain glass works in France.



Yes indeed - and those mirrors when viewed through the back show the prettiest emerald green color that I've ever seen! -Jason


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PhilCo126
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Svezda]
      #5250147 - 06/01/12 09:24 AM

Thanks for sharing, that's a real beauty

This would fit very nice next to it in an exhibition:
The Victorian Amateur Astronomer: independent astronomical research in Britain 1820-1920



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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: PhilCo126]
      #5250196 - 06/01/12 09:59 AM

Hi Phil:

That mount pictured in the lower circle image is the closest thing I've seen to the Tulley mount! It'd be great if the book was chock full of pictures and old ads, but I suppose it's not?

Regardless, it might be a good one to add to the reference library!

-Tim


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PhilCo126
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #5251551 - 06/02/12 04:51 AM

The book has lots of illustrations (check the Amazon.com preview which shows the contents & list of illustrations).
You might contact the writers of this book "in the making" to share some of Your practical insights

Classic Telescopes: A Guide to Collecting, Restoring, and Using Telescopes of Yesteryea
r
By Neil english (Springer - 30 Sep 2012)


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PhilCo126
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: PhilCo126]
      #5275476 - 06/17/12 11:19 AM

O.K; Tim let us know when You've worked on this beauty... even when You just took some dust off

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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: PhilCo126]
      #5275481 - 06/17/12 11:23 AM

Hi Phil:

It's been a while! I've been watching the ads for any signs of another Tulley, of course. Been tempted by a few offerings of refractors by other makers of similar vintage, though. Haven't been strongly attracted to anything yet, though I missed out on a Steward that apparently sold for a great price while I wasn't watching!

-Tim.


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terraclarke
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #5616256 - 01/10/13 08:53 PM

Wow, I can't believe that I read this entire thread this evening after dinner and it was absolutely fascinating. Tim, you have an amazing telescope here and your work to restore it down to making your own nuts and bolts that look like the originals is even more amazing. Even getting a late 19th century lathe to make some of these parts, things with totally unstandard threads, wow! Double wow! Like I said, I am just amazed.

I do have a question. You were looking for brass tubing to cut and turn down to fabricate a new lens cell. Then you mentioned, in your own words, that you might have to "bite the bullet" and buy a large block of solid brass. Well you saying "bullet" got me to thinking of an ash tray that my dad brought back from WWII. It was fashioned from a shell casing from the 3 inch gun on his ship- a picket class sub chaser. Have you thought of using a brass shell casing for stock? Standard tank rounds, mortar rounds, and other small artillery rounds range for 75 to 88 mm and larger. Perhaps you could find a brass shell casing of approximate size and go from there (unless of course, you have already done so.)

Anyway, thanks for a fascinating read.


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Z28500
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5643512 - 01/25/13 10:46 PM

I'm sure you've already done the cell but here is a brass site for brass tube (other than speedymetals which is a site I use a lot):

http://www.lewisbrass.com/rbt.htm

I work with a lot of brass myself on a scope I built and you've done a great job on that scope of yours!
Z


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Z28500]
      #5644207 - 01/26/13 11:13 AM

Terra. That's an interesting suggestion I likely would have never thought of!

Z. No, I haven't worked on this scope for a long time. I need to get back to it! Thanks for the link.

Tim


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #5808991 - 04/19/13 04:08 PM

Deleted

Edited by tim53 (04/19/13 06:53 PM)


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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #5809009 - 04/19/13 04:21 PM

Interesting picture, Tim. Did Dan say where it was taken?

James


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Masvingo]
      #5809014 - 04/19/13 04:23 PM

Oops, yeah. William Keith Murray Observatory (though I don't know where that is), between 1870-1890.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #5809023 - 04/19/13 04:28 PM

Actually, the pic is from this website, apparently: http://www.dspace.cam.ac.uk/handle/1810/221778

The observatory was built by WKM, but was called Ochtertyre Observatory, Perthshire, Scotland. The website says that the pictures date to 1858, and that WKM lived from 1801-1861.

courtesy University of Cambridge, Institute of Astronomy Library

-Tim

Edited by tim53 (04/19/13 04:29 PM)


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Masvingo
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Reged: 01/10/12

Loc: Ayrshire, Scotland
Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #5809027 - 04/19/13 04:31 PM

Thanks Tim.

Small world, fancy it being in Scotland!

I will need to read up on some history.


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #5809033 - 04/19/13 04:38 PM

Something along these lines would be nifty, too:



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Masvingo
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Reged: 01/10/12

Loc: Ayrshire, Scotland
Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #5809039 - 04/19/13 04:43 PM

Sure would, apart from a lot of the clear nights here being windy (high wind chill factor) , the garden is also well illuminated by street lights (does make it easy reading the setting circles though) and something like that would give plenty of protection.

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terraclarke
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Reged: 05/29/12

Loc: Just South of the Mason-Dixon ...
Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: Masvingo]
      #5809081 - 04/19/13 05:03 PM

Very cool pictures Tim. Thanks for sharing.

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mikey cee
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Reged: 01/18/07

Loc: bellevue ne.
Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5809234 - 04/19/13 06:29 PM

For those of us interested in woodworking look at the detail in those wood railings!! Real tree trunks for posts and "x" bracing too! Something in a picture for everyone. Mike

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trotts1
member


Reged: 10/04/11

Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: mikey cee]
      #5831772 - 04/30/13 08:35 AM

I have just read the whole of the correspondence regarding Tim's 3 1/4 Tulley and Sons Islington refractor and unique mount.
One of the statements earlier in the thread was that the green colour of early objectives is due to the glass being Soda Glass. This is incorrect!. The cause is due to Iron impurity in the raw materials used to make the glass.
The second point is that in the early and mid 1800's threads were "hand chased". They were NOT formed on a lathe with a lead screw as on modern lathes. As a result thread form and threads per inch varied from one firm to the other. This was still the case with Winchester Arms Company in the US (as an example)well into the 1890's.This was alluded to by one correspondent.
I have a Tulley and Sons Islington telescope contemporary with and similar to Tim's that has been packed away for 10+ years but am planning to extract it in the near future and measure the glass thickness's and colour (green or not) and also the thread form and pitches.I hope this will give a comparison to Tim's telescope and enable some "standard" for comparison as my telescope is unmolested.

Great thread.

Bob Trotter
Western Australia


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tim53
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Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: trotts1]
      #5831857 - 04/30/13 09:40 AM

Hi Bob:

Thanks for joining us! I would love to see pics of your scope here.

-Tim.


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trotts1
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Reged: 10/04/11

Re: My latest, earliest project. new [Re: tim53]
      #5835816 - 05/02/13 08:46 AM Attachment (23 downloads)

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the offer.

Basic information:

Clear aperture 3 13/16" ie just a bit bigger than 3 3/4 inches. Overall length, front of lens cell to rear of tube 63 1/4" so allowing a few extra inches to gain focus it is probably about 65 or so inches. This amounts to about f/17-18. Tube diameter OD 4 5/16". The tube has been extended from the factory as the extension is almost invisible and the signature crosses this extension. I suspect it was extended due to the longer focal length of this particular lens being longer than "standard.
There IS a finder attached and lens diameter a little under 15/16" and 10" long.
The tube is in two parts and screws together. It has a window to the rear and inside the tube is a diagonal to reflect light back towards an eyepiece. There is evidence an attachment was mounted close to the rear of the tube and I think this is for a gambled oil lamp was mounted to shine light into the side window. a small lever on the side of the tube that controls a thin ivory (or bone) blind that acts as a diaphragm to change the amount of light reaching the internal illuminating mirror.
The tube has been modified to enable two trunnions to be attached. Probably after the telescope was made as it is not very professional.
The lens cell is push-pull and has FOUR of these.
The lens overall diameter is 100.82 mm and fits into its cell with a pin soldered into the side of the cell to force alignment of the lenses. There are no lens separators (shims).
The Crown lens (convex) is GREEN and very thin. The Concave component is water white and 5.72mm thick at the edge.


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