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Equipment Discussions >> Classic Telescopes

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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: tim53]
      #5150577 - 03/31/12 05:52 PM Attachment (53 downloads)

I'm not sure which dates would be correct, I just wanted to mention the Norton dates for completeness. It would have been great to be part of the So. Cal. amateur telescope scene back then so that I could have some first hand knowledge of the goings on at Cave but I was stuck pursuing the hobby in cold Wisconsin (I can remember some really cold nights observing Saturn through a 3" Sears refractor).

Where's Lew? He could probably shed some light on this.

I did read the Haas obit and he may very well have the dates right. He does mention Norton's interview of Herring for the May 1995 S&T (page 81). So I just went back and read that interview. Another wonderful historical article from Mr. Norton! In this article Norton gives a specific date for Mr. Herring's departure from Cave to go to work at LPL - September 29th, 1961 so maybe he didn't know this when he wrote the Cave article in 1994. He also writes that Mr. Herring left LPL on March 1, 1970 and returned to Cave two months later, so May 1, 1970 he was back.

The article goes on to mention Mr. Herring making mirrors on the side in 1972, even advertising in S&T, but that Tom Cave didn't object to the direct competition from one of his employees. It mentions these mirrors as probably the best he made and that they were signed. He retired from Cave in 1979 "months before the company shut down".

Some other workers (opticians all?) mentioned in the 1994 Cave history article:

Richard Bach (the Jonathan Livingston Seagull author)
Bob Crawford
Ed Beck
Walt Depampalis

Of the several Caves I own this one is my pride and joy and produces incredible views. From correspondance I have between Cave and the original owner this is the actual scope on the cover of the 1970s Cave catalogs.


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tim53
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5150618 - 03/31/12 06:24 PM

Jon:

Is that a Carle helical focuser? I have one on my 8" lightweight deluxe and am surprised at how nice it is to use - even for planetary imaging!



-Tim.


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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: tim53]
      #5150751 - 03/31/12 08:08 PM Attachment (38 downloads)

I wish it was a Carle Tim. It is helical but much more modern - Lumicon. It was a direct no-new-holes-needed swap for the original focuser so I could do AP. The shorter height and greater adjustability of the draw tube gave me much more flexibility with the webcam.

See this page of the thread on that scope for more info:

10" Cave Custom Super Deluxe page 11


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greju
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5150781 - 03/31/12 08:31 PM Attachment (40 downloads)

Jon, I wonder when they inscribed the mirrors? Before or after the coating? If after I can still dream on that mine was done by the master.

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greju
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: tim53]
      #5150787 - 03/31/12 08:35 PM Attachment (33 downloads)

Quote:

Jon:

Is that a Carle helical focuser? I have one on my 8" lightweight deluxe and am surprised at how nice it is to use - even for planetary imaging!



-Tim.




I like the originals. So simple yet so functional.


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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: greju]
      #5150813 - 03/31/12 08:52 PM

Quote:

Jon, I wonder when they inscribed the mirrors? Before or after the coating? If after I can still dream on that mine was done by the master.




Good question Gregg, I've wondered that myself. On the early mirrors I'm going to say before coating and offer a story from the Norton Cave history:

"One day the secretary called Cave to the front office. Although Cave was never demanding or harsh, he returned from there red faced and obviously upset, mumbling something unrepeatable about his father. Cave Sr. ran the business affairs of Cave Optical and was essential to its early success. He also had wonderful handwriting. With a diamond pencil he scribed the Cave Optical signature on the back of each mirror, complete with focal length and mirror number. Each mirror was fine ground flat on the back, clearly distinguishing it from the front. But on that day the elder Cave had blundered; a just-completed 6-inch mirror on his desk bore the beautiful Cave Optical inscription - on the front! We never let him forget that day."

If the mirror had already been coated this couldn't have happened.


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KentTolley
member
*****

Reged: 03/26/12

Loc: California, USA
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5150884 - 03/31/12 10:32 PM

It makes sense to inscribe the mirror at Cave before they sent it out to Pancro to be coated. That would be the only way they could keep track of the mirrors as they returned for installation.

PiSigma - that is a beautiful scope. I remember it on the cover of the catalog with Cave's daughter (I think). The shorter focal ratio keeps the moment-arm within the capability of that mount. I always wondered about the 12.5" scopes on the Astrola Delux mount. They have also put the setting circles in the best place. Better than where they are on your 10" f/7 where they put both circles so as to increase the moment-arms which increases instability of the mount and a vibratory ringing before the mount comes to rest. I always wondered about the reason for placing the setting circles where they would actually decrease the stable platform of the mount.

I see you also have the electric declination control as well as a tube counterweight for heavier eyepiece loads. That scope has it all. They must have been proud of it themselves which is why they put it on their cover. You have a treasure. It would be my pride and joy as well.

Edited by KentTolley (03/31/12 11:21 PM)


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iverp
sage


Reged: 04/16/10

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5153629 - 04/02/12 05:44 PM

Jon,
I'm not sure how you want to handle this. Do as you see fit. I recently had my Cave mirror M728403 refigured, so technically I suppose it is no longer a Cave. But I wanted to let the group know.

Optical Wave Lab. (OWL) tested the original at 1/1.66 wave - less than 1/2 wave! I'm saddened that a company that once had such a fine reputation was producing such poor quality.

OWL redid the mirror, and it now tests at 1/8.67 wave with a strehl ratio of .963. I have had the scope out a few times with the redone mirror. The image quality is MUCH better. Actually stunning. So much more like what you expect of a Cave.

I wonder how many people put up with "good enough" optics when they really could be seeing so much more?

Iver P.


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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: iverp]
      #5153991 - 04/02/12 11:15 PM

Hi Iver,

That's 738403 right? I'll add a note to the Notes field.

Personally, I don't have a problem with refiguring a Cave mirror if it tests substandard and I don't feel that makes the scope any less desirable or authentic. If the scope is complete and authentic with the original engraved mirror it is still a Cave. While they produced many great mirrors over the years, with some being really exceptional, from what I've read a few duffers went out the door too. If a mirror tests poorly by a reputable optician I see no reason not to correct it without devaluing the scope.

I just recieved my 6" f/10 mirror back from OWL and it tested very very good (forgot to write the numbers down when Cary called and I'm waiting for an email from him).

I just sent an 8" Cave mirror to him to be followed by a 10". If either test poorly I will have him refigure them with no regrets.


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JWW
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 12/12/05

Loc: Arizona or Mexico hard to tell
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: KentTolley]
      #5165977 - 04/10/12 10:14 PM

Quote:

Thank you. I remember Ed Beck's name now. Do you recognize the opticians under Alika in the photo above. I remember the guy with glasses and military haircut in the lower two photos. I spoke with him at Cave's shop but it was a long time ago and I don't know his name. I think the other guy with longer hair and glasses mid-page is yet another Cave employee.




To my knowledge the guy in the photo name is Parks Squyres. You may find this interesting if you haven't seen it.

http://www.pbase.com/smokedaddy/herring_cave&page=all

Also, Parks worked on this project if you care to read about it. I just spoke with him two weeks ago.

http://lunarscience.arc.nasa.gov/articles/Surveyor/

Regards,
-JWW:


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chuck52
sage
*****

Reged: 12/03/09

Loc: Quartz Hill,California
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5248069 - 05/30/12 09:56 PM

Jon,
Here is the information off my mirror.Very light cursive writing.12.5 inch
Cave Optical Co HM 716485
F/6 75" F.L. July 20,1971


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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: chuck52]
      #5248876 - 05/31/12 01:25 PM

Thanks for the update Chuck. I've added it. I saw the picture in your other thread. I'll post an updated registry here soon. I haven't been posting it as often as when I started this list since additions are coming more slowly now.

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RogerRZ
Whatta you lookin' at?
*****

Reged: 01/09/06

Loc: West Collette, NB, Canada
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5267536 - 06/12/12 05:35 AM

The 10" f/6 I once owned in presently on AM, complete with picture of mirror inscription, serial # 750223. I miss that scope...

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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: RogerRZ]
      #5272864 - 06/15/12 01:28 PM

Thanks for the heads-up Roger, I missed that one and will get it added.

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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5307340 - 07/07/12 09:06 PM Attachment (28 downloads)

I think we are due for an update.

6 new mirrors, a couple of changes in ownership and a few refigures. Changes from the 3/28/2012 edition are highlighted in yellow.

A higher resolution version is here:

Cave Mirror Registry 7/7/2012

A total of 124 mirrors are now in the registry.


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jgr
member


Reged: 01/26/08

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5324421 - 07/19/12 02:40 AM


I plan to take my mirror out of my 12.5 f6 soon and have it refigured and recoated. I will take some pictures of the inscription and post them soon.


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JohnRW
member


Reged: 09/02/12

Loc: Oakland, California
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5401201 - 09/03/12 02:43 PM

I just fixed up a 1974 Cave 8" and cleaned the mirror gently, also took some photos to document it.

Inscription:
R749627 CAVE OPTICAL CO. 50 9/16" F.L. SEPT 20, 1974

The R means it's been refigured, according to this thread. Not sure what that means; was it originally a Cave and refigured there also? Also, the FL on the mirror side is different than the FL written on the back. Again, not sure what that means. New to all this!

I'll most likely send it to OWL in a month or so for recoating and analysis.









Also, Hi, CloudyNights, first post!


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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: JohnRW]
      #5401261 - 09/03/12 03:19 PM

John,

I sent you a private message. Click on the flashing envelope in the upper left of the screen, in the Welcome box.


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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: JohnRW]
      #5401395 - 09/03/12 04:27 PM

Thanks for the addition John. I will add it to the next registry update.

As we speculated in your scope thread, this was probably an ATM mirror that was sent to Cave for refiguring and turned into a complete Lightweight Deluxe at the same time. The mirror looks thicker than a typical Cave 8" mirror. This is the first refigure I've seen that was used to build a complete Cave.

The F-7+ is a bit of a mystery as the focal ratio is f/6.3 and Cave used a slash in the focal ratio of all the engravings I've seen. S. STEVENS was probably the original owner and this was most likely engraved on the mirror when it first arrived at Cave so that they could keep track of it through the refiguring, recoating and assembly process.


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JohnRW
member


Reged: 09/02/12

Loc: Oakland, California
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5412207 - 09/09/12 07:57 PM

After poking around, I finally noticed a # on the secondary. It's a M with a circle around it, and below it reads: 112-944.



Any significance? I thought I saw an earlier reference to secondary numbers, but the search engine and my memory has failed. My father said Tom Cave worked on the secondary a bit longer than usual because my father was a month later than planned in picking it up the scope. He picked it up in person and talked to Tom for a short while, apparently. I want to believe it's something special

Let me know if the # on the secondary is anything unusual or if it's worthy of note. Aside from winning a Dust Collector award, I mean. You folks are the Cave experts...


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