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Equipment Discussions >> Classic Telescopes

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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5586414 - 12/23/12 10:50 PM Attachment (25 downloads)

M794073
Nov 16 1979
F/6 fl=60 3/8"
THOMAS CAVE

Owner: Neil Barnett
model: 10", F6, Model C, not sure if Deluxe version
info from picture below.
F/6 on the back in black marker
"THOMAS CAVE" is actual side inscription


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John Higbee
super member
*****

Reged: 07/17/12

Loc: Virginia
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5586743 - 12/24/12 08:06 AM

Jon - first off, hope you and your family have a Merry Christmas!

I looked at the latest dated registry (Sep 15th?) recently...and noticed that the "cursive" inscriptions seem to be found on primarily 12.5"...with block inscriptions on 10" and below (admittedly not much data present on this in the later registry entries).

Can we identify this to particular individual(s)...just curious!

thanks, John


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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: John Higbee]
      #5587055 - 12/24/12 11:34 AM

Merry Christmas to you too John.

To the best of my knowledge we have not identified the engravers of the various mirror inscriptions. Lots of speculation but nothing solid.

When I originally started recoring the engraving type I had hoped that the cursive would have ended at a certain time with the block taking over. But they are intermixed. You are right in that most of the later mirrors that are cursive are also 12.5". But there are plenty of other sizes in cursive from the start of the six digit serial numbers to well into the '70s. Unfortunately, many of the later mirrors I have recorded are just from descriptions, which typically don't mention if the engraving is cursive or block. On most of these I have had no direct communication from the owners or sellers.


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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5587076 - 12/24/12 11:43 AM Attachment (23 downloads)

I was going to wait and see if JasonCA's new Cave had a serial number but it has been a while since an update so I can always do another one soon.

5 new mirrors added. Changes from the 9/15/2012 edition are highlighted in yellow.

We have a new 4 digit addition from Robert that expands the range of this early group and closes the gap to the six digit numbers by almost a year. And a late serial number that also has "Thomas Cave" engraved on it rather than "Cave Optical Co."

A higher resolution version is here:

Cave Mirror Registry 12/24/2012

A total of 136 mirrors are now in the registry.


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joerbiker
super member
*****

Reged: 01/08/11

Loc: Illinois
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5589042 - 12/25/12 11:16 PM

Awesome work Jon. Thank you for doing this.

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wfj
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 01/10/08

Loc: California, Santa Cruz County
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: joerbiker]
      #5591780 - 12/27/12 08:39 PM Attachment (18 downloads)

R783619 cAVE oPTICAL cO
41 1/2" F.L. AUGUST 19,1978

Note - It's an 8" Mirror in Cave cell, tube, focuser ... but looks like a Novak spider. OTA only, no plate.


Owner: William Jolitz

Edited by wfj (12/27/12 09:12 PM)


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Datapanic
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: wfj]
      #5591821 - 12/27/12 09:02 PM

Might have a '60's 8" f/5 to add soon...

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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: wfj]
      #5594924 - 12/29/12 07:11 PM

Thanks for the addition William. I'll get it in the next update.

The lower case C, O and C in cAVE oPTICAL cO. is interesting. I don't know why they did that. Another question for one of the mirror makers that worked at Cave during that time.


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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5594927 - 12/29/12 07:13 PM

Quote:

Might have a '60's 8" f/5 to add soon...




Two 8" f/5s in a row?

So...what's the story Dan?


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Datapanic
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5596194 - 12/30/12 01:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Might have a '60's 8" f/5 to add soon...




Two 8" f/5s in a row?

So...what's the story Dan?




I don't have an f/5! This one looks to be an early Grey painted version with the square Cave legs and it is in excellent condition. 1" shafts, clock drive, rotating rings all original with no add-ons or holes. Don't know what the date of the mirror is yet - not going to pick it up until next weekend.


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Glen A W
sage


Reged: 07/04/08

Loc: WEST VIRGINIA USA
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5596509 - 12/30/12 04:34 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

Here is a picture of the Cave mirror at Alderson-Broaddus College in West Virginia. IBM cards were used as shims and I reinstalled them when I cleaned the mirror for them last fall! It is a 6" of about f/9 or longer, installed in a crude tube on a crude pipe fittings mount. GW

Edited by Glen A W (12/30/12 04:35 PM)


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Glen A W
sage


Reged: 07/04/08

Loc: WEST VIRGINIA USA
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: Glen A W]
      #5596510 - 12/30/12 04:34 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Picture of mirror in mount :

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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5596805 - 12/30/12 07:33 PM

Sounds interesting Dan. Looking forward to pictures.

And sorry, by two 8" f/5s in a row I meant you and William. It seemed odd for two in this size to come up at the same time.


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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: Glen A W]
      #5596819 - 12/30/12 07:42 PM

Nice Glen, a very early one. Did you note the serial number or have a better picture? I can't quite make it out. I see "Cave Optical Co." "FL 53 1/2 F/9" and what looks like July 1954? Not sure about the 4. It looks like the serial number has 896 in it and maybe an "R" in front. Plus there seems to be something below the serial number and above the word "Optical".

That mirror cell looks like Edmund. I have a 1956 dated 6" f/10 that has an identical cell.


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Glen A W
sage


Reged: 07/04/08

Loc: WEST VIRGINIA USA
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5601377 - 01/02/13 02:47 PM

Hi Jon. I don't have access to it right now and I'm afraid those are the best pics I have. The mirror is in a tube that may be some kind of Edmund. It has a focuser which has the stalk attachment with the set screw, though this was not used as the diagonal is on a multi-vane spider. It also has a slightly large non-standard diameter to the focuser which is slip-fit and has a 3-eyepiece rotary holder of fairly crude manufacture, but with really nice (for the time) Erfle and possibly Ortho eyepieces. I will try and get pictures next time I am down there. The tube is fiberglass. GW

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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: Glen A W]
      #5601967 - 01/02/13 09:06 PM

That would be great Glen. I would love to add it to the registry.

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JEH
member


Reged: 01/04/13

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5605915 - 01/05/13 01:43 AM

After coming across this thread, I pulled the mirror from its cell of my old Astrola 6" Student Model. The mirror had the following information inscribed (print) on the back of mirror:
R = 1640
Refigure
Cave Optical 47 3/4 fl
March 1960 f/8

There is also the name Morrell or Merrill Snell inscribed on the mirror. Does anyone know who this person was? I have a photo of all of this but it is not that great due to reflection.

I would like to offer this information for the registry. My name is J E Hill and I got the scope directly from the shop in Long Beach as a teen.


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John Higbee
super member
*****

Reged: 07/17/12

Loc: Virginia
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5606047 - 01/05/13 05:45 AM

Jon - minor add to my mirror's information when you do the next update - you can add "cursive" for the engraving style. All the best, John

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clintwhitman
Caveman
*****

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5606066 - 01/05/13 06:55 AM

Some older mirrors showing up. Mirror 896 from 1954!!1000 should date it to right after 1956, interesting glitch? The R would make it a refigure. Looks alot like my #48 !!
JEH, More information / Clues about where the scope was located when found would be nice to figure out who signed your mirror. It was more than likely the OG owners name and he might have tryed to make his own mirror, then gave up and sent it to Tom to Re-figure thus the R.

From Jon and his awesome list the stories we have heard about Tom Cave not letting anyone working at his shop sign Cave mirrors is become more and more obvious.
(aveman

Edited by clintwhitman (01/05/13 07:20 AM)


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clintwhitman
Caveman
*****

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: clintwhitman]
      #5606137 - 01/05/13 08:51 AM Attachment (7 downloads)

Here are a couple of other observations,

I have read that while Tom was attending USC, he polished a lot of mirrors for amateurs in Los Angeles and before December 1950 he had made more than 900 mirrors. This has been written and is on the Cave Astrola Owners Web site. The information on that site is second hand and some of it conflicts with Toms writings, but he did make many early mirrors and Tom Cave JR and Senior were well known in LA before 1950.

William Llano a friend of Tom Jr. has said that Tom Senior made some of these very early mirrors and they were very sought after, but weather dad or son made them would be speculation.

It looks like Cave Optical stared up real production 1951 and 1952 and made around 60 numbered mirrors by the end of the second year.

From Sky & Telesope 1953, Harry Freeman A longtime amateur astronomer and maker of telescopes and accessories, Harry L. Freeman, died in Los Angeles on February 27th [1953] at the age of 64. He was a past president of the Los Angeles Astronomical Society, and served as its secretary-treasurer for three years. At the time of his death he was director of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific, and a member of the board of Western Amateur Astronomers.

Harry was building telescopes for the Folks at LAAS and made at least 10 complete mounts with Cave mirrors starting in 1951 ending in 1952 Tom and his Dad made the mirrors for Harry Freeman. I have one of these complete scopes. Harry Freeman Died in early 1953. From what Lew Chilton told me Tom and his Dad started making Astrola mounts where Harry left off.

Lew Chilton has in his possession an original manuscript / Biography written by Tom Cave in the 1960s. Tom wrote allot about the early days of Cave Optical and Harry Freeman.

On to the Cave Mirror production and Jon's Cave Mirror Registry (the CMR)

Tom included either M for Manufactured or R for Re-figured.

Sometime between 1962 and 1965 CAVE was up around 3000 mirrors and then stared the serial numbers over form zero. These included the year designation at the beginning of the serial number.

The Company was on a roll from 1963 or 64 through 1974 (need more mirrors) But it looks like they made 10,000 Mirrors in 10 Years !!! Is that possible?? That's like 2.5 mirrors a day.

In the last months of 1974 they started the serial numbers over at zero and started going at it again. They made another 4500 Mirrors and stopped in 1980 (need more mirrors)

17,500 mirrors, Based on JONS List. Not hearsay, from memory or guesses just Mirrors That Classic Telescope Men saved from the Dump!

This has nothing to do with Astrola Mounts. That's another List.

Very cool information Jon

1952 Harry Freeman Reflector 8" F9 mirror By Cave Optical.


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