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Equipment Discussions >> Classic Telescopes

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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: greju]
      #4417117 - 02/28/11 02:02 PM Attachment (37 downloads)

Quote:

mmm... I am pretty sure that material IS copyright protected. Do you download music from questionable sites too?




I don't download music.
I do have the S&T collection, complete, back to around 62 or so. I could ask S&T after explaining the use. What do you think they would say? I believe the copyright intent is so that other publishers won't use the articles. However, even the intent for educational or nostalgic use does require inquiry to be legit. Teachers do have to ask permission to copy some material for class handouts, and are rarely denied.
My only mistake here is skimming the red tape by not asking S&T, AND making a public offer instead of private.

Edited by apfever (02/28/11 02:10 PM)


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chollman
sage
*****

Reged: 04/24/08

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: apfever]
      #4417206 - 02/28/11 02:53 PM

I ground an 8" F/8 mirror from an edmund kit in 1971. It was refigured in 1973 by Cave Optical. The serial is #R738569. This mirror has been documented at better than .99 strehl and a minimum 1/25 wave error. I see at the beginning of this thread that an R means it was refigured by Cave himself. I sort of thought that since my mother talked to Cave on the phone about my mirror (I was at school at the time). I was beginning to think it was an Alika refigure since the mirror is so perfect. Any thoughts on this? Charlie Hollman

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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: chollman]
      #4417441 - 02/28/11 04:50 PM

Charlie,

When I stated an R meant refigured by Cave I meant Cave Optical Co. not Tom Cave himself. He may well have done it himself but I have no way to know that.

Does your mirror have a date inscribed also and is the inscription cursive or block lettering? I'll add it to the registry.


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chollman
sage
*****

Reged: 04/24/08

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #4417668 - 02/28/11 06:56 PM

Jon, Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part. The inscription is cursive and not very good writing. Probably not easy to inscribe the edge of a pyrex mirror. I will have to check the date next time the mirror is out. It is late 1973, not sure which month. Thanks for your reply. Charlie Hollman

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Rich (RLTYS)Moderator
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New York (Long Island)
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #4420781 - 03/02/11 06:51 AM Attachment (48 downloads)

Here is a picture of my Cave Mirror, all other info has been PM.

Rich (RLTYS)


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Rich (RLTYS)Moderator
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New York (Long Island)
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: Rich (RLTYS)]
      #4420783 - 03/02/11 06:53 AM Attachment (44 downloads)

Here is a second picture.

Rich (RLTYS)


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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: Rich (RLTYS)]
      #4421096 - 03/02/11 10:00 AM

Thanks Rich.

I've noticed on a number of these block letter engraved mirrors that the V in Cave is taller (or lower) than the other letters. Not sure why but it seems like it was done on purpose.


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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #4421663 - 03/02/11 02:45 PM

Quote:

Thanks Rich.

I've noticed on a number of these block letter engraved mirrors that the V in Cave is taller (or lower) than the other letters. Not sure why but it seems like it was done on purpose.




It seems the block letters that are uniform in height also have point top A's, that is A's made with two straight lines. The block lettering with the tall V's seem to all have rolled top A's made with a single arched stroke. So far.


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Rich (RLTYS)Moderator
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New York (Long Island)
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: apfever]
      #4421974 - 03/02/11 05:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks Rich.

I've noticed on a number of these block letter engraved mirrors that the V in Cave is taller (or lower) than the other letters. Not sure why but it seems like it was done on purpose.




It seems the block letters that are uniform in height also have point top A's, that is A's made with two straight lines. The block lettering with the tall V's seem to all have rolled top A's made with a single arched stroke. So far.




Does it mean anything?

Rich (RLTYS)


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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: Rich (RLTYS)]
      #4422027 - 03/02/11 05:56 PM

I have no idea.
There was interest expressed earlier in identifying writing to help determine who may have made the mirror. This registry could provide some interesing information. I would suggest an archives of the pictures in some format (by date?) that would allow comparisons after, hopefully, hundreds of inscription pictures.


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greju
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: greju]
      #4432185 - 03/07/11 12:26 PM

I am kinda surprised no one noticed this on my mirror pictured. I have not seen it before and am wondering if it may have any significance or if anyone elses is inscribed like it. It is inscribed " A Cave Mirror ". The handwritting style is the same as Lews re-coated mirror from 1959 and I am pretty sure it is Tom Cave Jr doing the inscribing. Could " A Cave Mirror " have anything at all with Tom Cave Jr. personaly figuring this mirror? So many questions and so little info!

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Lew Chilton
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/20/05

Loc: SoCal
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: greju]
      #4432479 - 03/07/11 02:35 PM Attachment (31 downloads)

Greju,

I don't think anyone could see the picture of the back of your mirror well enough to notice what you just mentioned above about the "A Cave Mirror" inscription.

I took your image and played around with it a little in Photoshop Elements to try and bring out the Cave signature, and you're right - it looks almost identical to the Cave inscription on the back of my 1959 mirror. What was the date on yours, October 1964?

I don't imagine it would be too difficult to locate a specimen of Tom Cave's signature inasmuch as he was in business for about 25 years and probably wrote hundreds of business letters to customers over that period.

I would check with ALPO, the BAA, ASP and other astronomical organizations that Tom belonged to who might have his correspondence in their archives. Maybe Sky & Tel does too. Just a thought.

Edited by Lew Chilton (03/07/11 02:38 PM)


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greju
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: Lew Chilton]
      #4432497 - 03/07/11 02:41 PM

Thanks Lew, Oct. 1961. I have been looking for Tom Caves handwritting and as of yet have not found anything. Anyone?

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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: greju]
      #4433322 - 03/07/11 08:24 PM Attachment (30 downloads)

Actually Lew, I have Tom Cave's signature on a couple dozen letters related to my 10" Custom Super Deluxe and another Cave scope. Problem is - I don't think any of them were written by Tom Cave. As came up in a previous thread, it appears that secretaries signed all of these letters. All of the letters I have were signed by five different secretaries. Their initials are at the bottom of these letters as was common when a secretary signed for an executive. The initials were bd, mb, cg, cc and cmr. The signatures match between letters with the same secretary's initials but not between letters with different secretary's initials. It would be interesting to see what Tom Cave's real signature looked like.

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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: greju]
      #4433477 - 03/07/11 09:25 PM

Quote:

I am kinda surprised no one noticed this on my mirror pictured. I have not seen it before and am wondering if it may have any significance or if anyone elses is inscribed like it. It is inscribed " A Cave Mirror ". The handwritting style is the same as Lews re-coated mirror from 1959 and I am pretty sure it is Tom Cave Jr doing the inscribing. Could " A Cave Mirror " have anything at all with Tom Cave Jr. personaly figuring this mirror? So many questions and so little info!




I did a little more research, looking at the pictures I have on file of these early mirrors, which were all engraved on the back. I'm not an expert at handwriting analysis but here's what is on these mirrors and my take on the similarities of the engraving style, giving similar styles the same Type number:

M74 – Made by Cave Optical Co. Long Beach, Cal (Type 1)
M213 – Cave Optical Co. (Type 1)
M458 – A Cave Mirror (Type 2)
M654 – Cave Optical Co. (Type 2)
R1589 – Refigured by Cave Optical Co. (Type 3)
M2004 – A Cave Mirror (Type 3)

I agree Gregg, I think yours and Lew's were engraved by the same person. But I think the person who engraved M74 and M213 was different than the person who engraved M458 and M654, and this person was also different than the person who engraved yours and Lew's.

M458 also has "A Cave Mirror" on the back. I had this originally listed as M456 but just noticed it is actually M458. I'll correct this in the first posted update of the registry.


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Datapanic
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #4433823 - 03/08/11 12:30 AM

Not only do we need an original Tom Cave Jr. signature, but also an Alika Herring signature!

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tim53
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: Datapanic]
      #4433844 - 03/08/11 12:51 AM

And an Ed Beck signature, and a few other opticians I can't remember that Ed told me about several years ago.

-Tim.


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greju
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: PiSigma]
      #4436160 - 03/08/11 09:39 PM

IIRC it has been said in a couple of different places Cave Sr. signed all the mirrors untill shortly before his passing in 1959. How this fits into all this I am not sure. And since only some mirrors are inscribed " A Cave Mirror " it must have some significance, I wish I knew what it was! I am also sure I read somewhere that Alika Herring used three specific letters of his name to sign his mirrors?

Edited by greju (03/08/11 09:45 PM)


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PiSigma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Cave Mirror Registry new [Re: tim53]
      #4436184 - 03/08/11 09:51 PM

I finally got around to reading the S&T article – boy, I wish all of the former Cave employees would write something like that. What an excellent story.

Mr. Norton mentions that Alika Herring started in 1953, left in 1960 and came back in 1969. Mr. Norton also left in 1960 and writes that Cave then hired Ed Beck, Bob Crawford and Walt Depampalis.

Some other interesting mirror related tidbits:

Norton quotes 53,000 mirrors and 15,600 complete telescopes. Since he left in 1960 and the article is based on conversations he had with Tom Cave Jr. “last summer” (1993?) I would assume he got these numbers from Tom Cave Jr. Norton wrote that during his career at Cave from 1952 to 1960 he personally made over 600 mirrors. Since the registry confirms the serialization of 16,000-17,000 mirrors, presumably for complete scopes, (we need to fill in the gap between 10/1961 and 6/18/1965 to pin this down) Cave must not have marked the 53,000 mirrors.

Prior to the start of Cave-Wilkinson Optical Co. in December 1950 (soon to become just Cave Optical Co.), Tom Cave Sr. and Jr. made nearly 500 mirrors from 1947 to 1950. I wonder if any inscriptions identify these pre-Cave Optical Co. mirrors?

Norton writes that Tom Cave Sr. ran the business affairs of Cave Optical (implying that he didn’t make mirrors) and, prior to his death in 1957, he scribed the Cave Optical signature in the back of a thousand mirrors in an Old English script style. And, in a humorous story, one was engraved on the front!


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greju
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry [Re: PiSigma]
      #4436480 - 03/09/11 12:13 AM

An interesting tidbit from one of our own.

"Thomas R. Cave Jr. personally engraved each mirror after
final figuring was completed with a diamond pencil marker, a
tradition started by his father. True Cave Optical Co. mirrors
(yes, there are clever copies) are signed on either the side or
back in freehand Old English script with the company's name,
the focal length and ratio, a serial number starting with the
letter “M,” and the date of completion. The co-author’s
Model “A” Deluxe Newtonian has a 6-inch mirror that is
etched “Cave Optical Co., 47 15/16" F.L., F/8, #M672968,
Oct. 23, 1967.”"


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