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PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Cave Mirror Registry
#4413168 - 02/26/11 02:46 PM Attachment (197 downloads)

As many of us know, Cave mirrors are usually inscribed on their edge with the words “Cave Optical Co.” a serial number, the focal ratio and focal length along with the date they were finished.

I would like to start a registry of Cave mirrors. I have started collecting mirror information from CN posts, the Cave Yahoo group, various CN, AM and eBay sales as well as the two Caves I own, and have put them in a spreadsheet ordered by inscription date.

In the column marked ‘Documentation’ I have indicated whether the source of my information was Personal Inspection, a Picture, or a text Description. One interesting facet of Cave mirrors is that some have “Cave Optical Co.” inscribed in cursive writing while some are a block letter engraving and I have a column noting this. On entries where I only had a description of the mirror engraving, the style of the engraving is usually not mentioned.

Where the mirror was part of a complete scope I have noted the model. Many of the mirrors where a model is not listed were for sale as a loose mirror not in an OTA.

Under the owner’s column I have noted what I know to be the owner’s name or forum user ID. I have only listed full names if that person commonly posts his full name in Internet forums. If you are listed and would like me to delete your name or add your real name please PM me ASAP and I’ll change this image.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4413172 - 02/26/11 02:47 PM Attachment (93 downloads)

Some interesting conclusions can be drawn from what I have collected so far.

- Mirror serial numbers manufactured by Cave start with an “M”, mirrors refigured by Cave start with an “R”.

- At first it appears Cave probably just started at number 1 and went up, eventually getting into four digits. At some time prior to 6/18/1965 they started adding two digits for the year of mirror manufacture to the beginning of the four digit serial number making a six digit number. When this occurred it appears they may have started over at 1 again as the last recorded serial number without the year, 1898, is higher than the first with the year, 1485.

- The earlier mirrors with serial numbers not starting with the year were engraved in a different cursive script on the back, rather than the edge of the mirror.

- The four digit sequential part of the serial number did not start over at 0001 at the beginning of each year. It appears Cave went to 9999 and then rolled over to 0001 when they reached the 10,000th mirror (this occurred in late 1974).

- It does not appear that they rolled over from 9999 during the period when they were not adding the year to the serial number as it is unlikely they would have made 8000+ mirrors between April of 1961 and 6/18/1965. Further data is needed to estimate how many mirrors were produced during this early period with serial numbers that did not contain the year.

- Assuming Cave started over at serial number 0001 in the series where the year is part of the serial number one can assume Cave made about 14031+ mirrors by 9/25/1979 plus the ones made before the year was added to the serial number. There are statements on the Internet claiming Cave made 83,000 mirrors and 16,000 complete scopes. I don’t know what the source is for these statements. Given the above listing, and if one assumes these were originally all part of complete scopes, the 16,000 number seems reasonable. If Cave actually made 83,000 mirrors they must have made a lot with no serial numbers.

- There was not a specific date where the inscriptions changed from cursive to block lettering.

If the group here is interested in keeping this going and expanding it with new information I would volunteer to maintain this registry as I find this kind of information fascinating. If you own a Cave and are not in the above listing, or if you know of any errors in it, please PM me or post in this thread and I can update the list periodically. Actual pictures of your mirror inscriptions would be preferable so as to verify the information and the engraving style.

At first I thought about posting this to the Cave Yahoo group as there has been an attempt there to post pictures of Cave mirror inscriptions but it seems like more Cave owners find their way here to CN.

An example of the cursive style engraving on my 10” f/6 Custom Super Deluxe:

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4413176 - 02/26/11 02:48 PM Attachment (112 downloads)

An example of the block style engraving on my 8” f/8 Model B Deluxe. This one was made shortly after the ‘roll over’ from 9999 to 0001:

Post Extras:

Compressorguy
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 03/14/09

Loc: Clayton, NC

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4413278 - 02/26/11 03:57 PM Attachment (77 downloads)

Jon, thank you for taking time to do this. You can add mine to the mix. S/n M762404, Dec 29th, 1976 Cave 10" F/6 Model C Custom Deluxe. Block letters.

Post Extras:

Compressorguy
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 03/14/09

Loc: Clayton, NC

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Compressorguy]
#4413282 - 02/26/11 03:59 PM Attachment (71 downloads)

Block letter style inscription.

Post Extras:

Compressorguy
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 03/14/09

Loc: Clayton, NC

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Compressorguy]
#4413299 - 02/26/11 04:06 PM Attachment (77 downloads)

Unusual for 1976?? Meade badged #300 guide scope and Meade badged 2" focuser. Previous owner stated it was ordered/supplied this way. Seems Cave would have removed the Meade decals and there is no evidence of Cave decals ever being on the scope.

Post Extras:

Compressorguy
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 03/14/09

Loc: Clayton, NC

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Compressorguy]
#4413307 - 02/26/11 04:16 PM Attachment (89 downloads)

I love the look of the older mirrors. The way they left the glass "clear" and with the radius edge. I find it unusual the way my mirror is finished. Mine has a frosted edge and bottom finish and the top edge has a distinct 1/8" bevel cut. Wonder when this practice started? Was it from a different supplier?

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clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4413879 - 02/26/11 09:57 PM

Jon You Just won the second ever

(AVEMAN AWARD!!!

Work of art bro! Where is this going to live? Can you post it to the Cave Group files section?

Post Extras:

clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#4413882 - 02/26/11 10:00 PM

Also I have a few more mirrors from the 1960s floating around here I will have to dig out.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Compressorguy]
#4413941 - 02/26/11 10:32 PM

Thanks for the addition Scott. I'll let this thread run for a while and post an updated list at some point.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#4413966 - 02/26/11 10:47 PM

WOW! A Caveman award! I am truly honored Clint. Thank you.

I would be interested in adding any others you have - especially from the 60s. As you can see the list is pretty sparse for the 50s and 60s but well represented for the 70s.

As for where this list should live, I'm open to suggestions. Posting it to the Cave Yahoo group files section is something I've considered. I'm not sure if that allows me to replace (overwrite) earlier versions of the registry with an updated copy. I don't know if I want to put the actual Excel file out in the wild as I'm afraid others will modify it and there will be different versions floating around. That is one reason I posted this as a JPEG image, although someone could type all of the information into a new spreadsheet. I need to add a date at the top so everyone knows when it was last updated.

It seems maybe more Cave owners end up here in the Classics forum of CN than on the Yahoo group so I thought people who come across a Cave for the first time might find this thread first.

I'm OK with posting an updated list image in this thread from time to time as I add new serial numbers. After a certain time, I'm not sure how long, it looks like you cannot edit an earlier post so I would have to post updates farther down this thread rather than being able to update the first post.

Post Extras:

Datapanic
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4414222 - 02/27/11 02:46 AM

I'm for keeping the list on a). Your PC and b). this forum.

I have been wondering when Clint would issue another Caveman Award - glad you got it!

Post Extras:

Lew Chilton
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/20/05

Loc: SoCal

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Datapanic]
#4414279 - 02/27/11 04:45 AM Attachment (75 downloads)

Jon,

Very cool idea! You can add my 8-inch Cave refigured mirror to the list if you like. The serial no. is R 1589. The engraving is on the back of my mirror, not the edge. Is that unusual? See picture attached...

Lew Chilton

Edited by Lew Chilton (02/27/11 05:08 AM)

Post Extras:

Ham Radio
professor emeritus

Reged: 09/18/09

Loc: Baxter, Mn

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4414415 - 02/27/11 08:28 AM

Jon, if you do decide to go the Excel route, you can lock the file so now one can mess with it, or password it so only a few people can add to it (under your supervision of course).

Post Extras:

Dean Norris
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 11/05/08

Loc: Santa Cruz, Ca

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Ham Radio]
#4415567 - 02/27/11 06:33 PM

Jon,

Here's the information on my Cave. Thank you for doing this work. Great idea.

M 716372 May 1971 10" F/6 cursive model Standard Dean Norris

Next time I clean the mirror, I will image and post a pic.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Ham Radio]
#4415608 - 02/27/11 06:51 PM

Thanks Dan. I'm really very proud to receive a Caveman award! I agree with you - I would like to maintain the registry myself and post updates here.

Lew - thanks, that is obviously a very early one. I have only seen the engraving on the back rather than the edge on these very early mirrors before Cave started adding the year to the beginning of the serial number. I have also noticed these rear engraved mirrors only have the month and year of manufacture and not the day. I had mistakenly put down a date of 7/1/1954 for M213 but just went back and looked at the picture for that and it was just July 1954 so I'll change that. I'm not a handwriting expert but the cursive style on these early mirrors is different than the cursive on the edge engraved mirrors. All five of these early mirrors that I have pictures of appear to be engraved by the same person.

It would be very interesting to find more between M1898 and Clint's M651485 to determine: a) how many mirrors were made in this early period and b) when did the change occur and why.

Thanks for the suggestion Rod. If I do end up posting the file to the Cave Yahoo group that might be one way to go.

And whoo hooo, I just won the Phoenix NASCAR race with Jeff Gordon (I work at Hendrick Motorsports on the 5 and 24 cars).

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Dean Norris]
#4415683 - 02/27/11 07:21 PM

Thanks Dean. Do you know what day your mirror was made? If not I'll wait for the picture. Cave was really cranking out the mirrors in May of 1971.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Datapanic]
#4415697 - 02/27/11 07:25 PM

Dan,

I just realized I have your 8" Model B Deluxe but not your Lightweight Deluxe. I know the Horsetrail Cave had no serial number.

Post Extras:

Datapanic
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4415776 - 02/27/11 08:00 PM

Quote:

Dan,

I just realized I have your 8" Model B Deluxe but not your Lightweight Deluxe. I know the Horsetrail Cave had no serial number.

I'll get the Lightweight Deluxe serial number next time I pull it out. I shoulda done that the last time it was out but forgot!

Speaking of the Model B and the Lightweight, I recently switched OTA's and Mounts with the Piers - Now the Lightweight f/7 tube is using the Model B mount and the Lightweight Pier. The Piers are different heights depending on the F-ratio, so to prevent the OTA from hitting the legs, I had to do it that way...

Post Extras:

apfever
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4415900 - 02/27/11 09:04 PM Attachment (67 downloads)

I'm in.

cursive writing.
#749223
F/8 47 1/8" F.L May 7 1974

1975 6" Student Deluxe.
Current (2nd) owner Neil Barnett

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4415955 - 02/27/11 09:31 PM

Jon, great idea and congrats on the race! Oh, and the award-well that speaks for itself.

If you could include my Cave mirror to your list maybe it would be helpfull. I had previously stated that my mirror was 1967 but after doing some research and with the advent of your most generous offer to record these mirrors my serial number coincides with the date(s) already listed and it is dated Oct, 1961 and not as I erroneously previously stated 1967. When I had first looked at the mirror I mistook the 1 for a 7 but since that time and after closer inspection and research it is indeed a 1. The info is in cursive on the back of the mirror and IIRC looks to be in the same hand as Lews. My serial number is M 2004. Figured by Tom himself-I don't know? Another reason to make me think 1961 vs. 1967 is the Pancro label on the back has only the two numbers - 39- for the mailing code. The USPS did not start using 5 digit zip codes untill 1963. One bit of trivia I have ucovered is there is a couple of dates thrown around as to when Alika Herring worked for Cave. According to one source Tom Cave himself said Herring left the first time in 1959 but another two sources, one of whom worked at Cave, said he left in about Oct. of 1961. Could he have done the final figuring of my mirror as it has been said he did the final figuring of all Cave mirrors when he was there? I won't go there,yet!

This thread has got me even more excited about my 6 inch mirror and I will dig it out and get you a picture so you can accurately record it. Thanks Jon!

Edited by greju (02/28/11 12:01 PM)

Post Extras:

L. Regira
sage

Reged: 07/10/05

Loc: Theriot, LA 29' 25"N; 90.46W

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4415963 - 02/27/11 09:36 PM Attachment (52 downloads)

Here is my mirror picture.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Datapanic]
#4415964 - 02/27/11 09:36 PM

Thanks Dan, whenever you get around to it, no rush.

Your swapping around sounds like the right way to get the components in the best places. I was surprised to find my 8" f/8's pier tube was taller than my 10" f/6 (25.5" vs. 22"). But I shouldn't have been surprised as the tube on the 8" is 66" while it is only 62" on the 10".

Post Extras:

L. Regira
sage

Reged: 07/10/05

Loc: Theriot, LA 29' 25"N; 90.46W

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4415968 - 02/27/11 09:38 PM Attachment (39 downloads)

Here is the serial number.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: apfever]
#4415974 - 02/27/11 09:41 PM

Thanks Neil.

Post Extras:

gelkin
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 09/22/10

Loc: Western, MD.

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4415993 - 02/27/11 09:52 PM Attachment (36 downloads)

Wow what a day, a caveman award and a winning car, congrats. I am the current owner of the mirror you list being owned by Greg Stone. Included is a photo for additional info. Not visible in the photo the year is 1977.

Great idea and thanks for committing the time to do it. Very interesting information on these excellent scopes.

Present owner of this 8" light weight deluxe- Gerald Elkin

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4416004 - 02/27/11 09:58 PM

Thanks Gregg. That fills in a little bit more of the gap between the early mirrors with no year in the serial number and the ones that did. That's very cool that the registry helped indicate that it is really 1961 and not 1967, I love it! Is the focal length marked on it?

I wonder what the MC prefix means? That's a new one. Hard to say about Alika Herring figuring the mirror. We need more direct information from the people who were there at the time. I have also read that Mr. Herring left in 1961 and returned in 1970.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: L. Regira]
#4416016 - 02/27/11 10:04 PM

Thanks L. Regira. That is now the latest serial number I have recorded.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: gelkin]
#4416027 - 02/27/11 10:08 PM

Thanks for the update Gerald. And now I know it has the block lettering too.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4416039 - 02/27/11 10:14 PM

Another update: I found an obituary of Tom Cave Jr. from the British Astronomical Association that quotes a former Cave employee, Dick Norton, as writing that Cave made 53,000 mirrors (not 83,000) and 15,000 complete telescopes.

BAA Cave Obit

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4416045 - 02/27/11 10:20 PM

Jon, Glad you did not use the actual one from BAA which is copyright protected!

And yes, the focal length is inscribed 48" + L - F/8 .

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PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4416071 - 02/27/11 10:39 PM

I think it would have been OK anyway as they were quoting Mr. Norton from an article he had written about the history of Cave for the August 1994 Sky & Telescope. But I guess that would have been copyrighted also. I wish I had a copy of that article. Man, I need to pony up for a set of those S&T DVDs.

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4416081 - 02/27/11 10:44 PM

That's funny, I have been looking for that same article! The early history of Cave!

Edited by greju (02/27/11 10:45 PM)

Post Extras:

Datapanic
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4416223 - 02/28/11 01:01 AM

That's a VERY GOOD article and makes it worth buying the S&T DVD set worth it in itself! I haven't read or found any history like that in the article anywhere else.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Datapanic]
#4416606 - 02/28/11 09:46 AM

Quote:

That's a VERY GOOD article and makes it worth buying the S&T DVD set worth it in itself! I haven't read or found any history like that in the article anywhere else.

Oh, now I'm going to HAVE to buy the DVD set.....

Post Extras:

apfever
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado

Re: Cave Mirror Registry *DELETED* new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4416655 - 02/28/11 10:23 AM

Post deleted by apfever

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry *DELETED* new

[Re: apfever]
#4416672 - 02/28/11 10:36 AM

Post deleted by greju

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4416882 - 02/28/11 12:09 PM Attachment (38 downloads)

Please let me correct myself yet again.

My eyes just ain't what they used to be! After even closer inspection with every magnifier in the house my mirrors serial number is indeed M 2004 and not MC as I stated in the above thread. It is a VERY cursive M and kind off has a tail on it so in just looking without any help I saw MC. I apologize and have corrected it in the post above. Maybe because of the age or the fact that this info is inscribed very lightly on the back of the mirror it is VERY hard to get a good picture. I hope this will count!

Post Extras:

CAVEMASTER
sage

Reged: 05/22/07

Loc: Southern Indiana

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4416996 - 02/28/11 01:06 PM

A most informative post. Yea I was just about to quit NASCAR
Jeff really deserved to win. I will get my 12.5" 1969 Deluxe
semi-trans. to you ASAP.
v/r
Danny

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4417062 - 02/28/11 01:36 PM

No worries Gregg, that's good. I see what you mean about the M. On these early mirrors the inscriber seems to want to do the engraving with a certain flair.

Post Extras:

apfever
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4417117 - 02/28/11 02:02 PM Attachment (30 downloads)

Quote:

mmm... I am pretty sure that material IS copyright protected. Do you download music from questionable sites too?

I don't download music.
I do have the S&T collection, complete, back to around 62 or so. I could ask S&T after explaining the use. What do you think they would say? I believe the copyright intent is so that other publishers won't use the articles. However, even the intent for educational or nostalgic use does require inquiry to be legit. Teachers do have to ask permission to copy some material for class handouts, and are rarely denied.
My only mistake here is skimming the red tape by not asking S&T, AND making a public offer instead of private.

Edited by apfever (02/28/11 02:10 PM)

Post Extras:

chollman
sage

Reged: 04/24/08

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: apfever]
#4417206 - 02/28/11 02:53 PM

I ground an 8" F/8 mirror from an edmund kit in 1971. It was refigured in 1973 by Cave Optical. The serial is #R738569. This mirror has been documented at better than .99 strehl and a minimum 1/25 wave error. I see at the beginning of this thread that an R means it was refigured by Cave himself. I sort of thought that since my mother talked to Cave on the phone about my mirror (I was at school at the time). I was beginning to think it was an Alika refigure since the mirror is so perfect. Any thoughts on this? Charlie Hollman

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: chollman]
#4417441 - 02/28/11 04:50 PM

Charlie,

When I stated an R meant refigured by Cave I meant Cave Optical Co. not Tom Cave himself. He may well have done it himself but I have no way to know that.

Does your mirror have a date inscribed also and is the inscription cursive or block lettering? I'll add it to the registry.

Post Extras:

chollman
sage

Reged: 04/24/08

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4417668 - 02/28/11 06:56 PM

Jon, Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part. The inscription is cursive and not very good writing. Probably not easy to inscribe the edge of a pyrex mirror. I will have to check the date next time the mirror is out. It is late 1973, not sure which month. Thanks for your reply. Charlie Hollman

Post Extras:

RLTYS
Post Laureate

Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New York (Long Island)

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4420781 - 03/02/11 06:51 AM Attachment (40 downloads)

Here is a picture of my Cave Mirror, all other info has been PM.

Rich (RLTYS)

Post Extras:

RLTYS
Post Laureate

Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New York (Long Island)

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: RLTYS]
#4420783 - 03/02/11 06:53 AM Attachment (34 downloads)

Here is a second picture.

Rich (RLTYS)

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: RLTYS]
#4421096 - 03/02/11 10:00 AM

Thanks Rich.

I've noticed on a number of these block letter engraved mirrors that the V in Cave is taller (or lower) than the other letters. Not sure why but it seems like it was done on purpose.

Post Extras:

apfever
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4421663 - 03/02/11 02:45 PM

Quote:

Thanks Rich.

I've noticed on a number of these block letter engraved mirrors that the V in Cave is taller (or lower) than the other letters. Not sure why but it seems like it was done on purpose.

It seems the block letters that are uniform in height also have point top A's, that is A's made with two straight lines. The block lettering with the tall V's seem to all have rolled top A's made with a single arched stroke. So far.

Post Extras:

RLTYS
Post Laureate

Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New York (Long Island)

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: apfever]
#4421974 - 03/02/11 05:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks Rich.

I've noticed on a number of these block letter engraved mirrors that the V in Cave is taller (or lower) than the other letters. Not sure why but it seems like it was done on purpose.

It seems the block letters that are uniform in height also have point top A's, that is A's made with two straight lines. The block lettering with the tall V's seem to all have rolled top A's made with a single arched stroke. So far.

Does it mean anything?

Rich (RLTYS)

Post Extras:

apfever
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: RLTYS]
#4422027 - 03/02/11 05:56 PM

I have no idea.
There was interest expressed earlier in identifying writing to help determine who may have made the mirror. This registry could provide some interesing information. I would suggest an archives of the pictures in some format (by date?) that would allow comparisons after, hopefully, hundreds of inscription pictures.

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4432185 - 03/07/11 12:26 PM

I am kinda surprised no one noticed this on my mirror pictured. I have not seen it before and am wondering if it may have any significance or if anyone elses is inscribed like it. It is inscribed " A Cave Mirror ". The handwritting style is the same as Lews re-coated mirror from 1959 and I am pretty sure it is Tom Cave Jr doing the inscribing. Could " A Cave Mirror " have anything at all with Tom Cave Jr. personaly figuring this mirror? So many questions and so little info!

Post Extras:

Lew Chilton
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/20/05

Loc: SoCal

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4432479 - 03/07/11 02:35 PM Attachment (24 downloads)

Greju,

I don't think anyone could see the picture of the back of your mirror well enough to notice what you just mentioned above about the "A Cave Mirror" inscription.

I took your image and played around with it a little in Photoshop Elements to try and bring out the Cave signature, and you're right - it looks almost identical to the Cave inscription on the back of my 1959 mirror. What was the date on yours, October 1964?

I don't imagine it would be too difficult to locate a specimen of Tom Cave's signature inasmuch as he was in business for about 25 years and probably wrote hundreds of business letters to customers over that period.

I would check with ALPO, the BAA, ASP and other astronomical organizations that Tom belonged to who might have his correspondence in their archives. Maybe Sky & Tel does too. Just a thought.

Edited by Lew Chilton (03/07/11 02:38 PM)

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Lew Chilton]
#4432497 - 03/07/11 02:41 PM

Thanks Lew, Oct. 1961. I have been looking for Tom Caves handwritting and as of yet have not found anything. Anyone?

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4433322 - 03/07/11 08:24 PM Attachment (24 downloads)

Actually Lew, I have Tom Cave's signature on a couple dozen letters related to my 10" Custom Super Deluxe and another Cave scope. Problem is - I don't think any of them were written by Tom Cave. As came up in a previous thread, it appears that secretaries signed all of these letters. All of the letters I have were signed by five different secretaries. Their initials are at the bottom of these letters as was common when a secretary signed for an executive. The initials were bd, mb, cg, cc and cmr. The signatures match between letters with the same secretary's initials but not between letters with different secretary's initials. It would be interesting to see what Tom Cave's real signature looked like.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4433477 - 03/07/11 09:25 PM

Quote:

I am kinda surprised no one noticed this on my mirror pictured. I have not seen it before and am wondering if it may have any significance or if anyone elses is inscribed like it. It is inscribed " A Cave Mirror ". The handwritting style is the same as Lews re-coated mirror from 1959 and I am pretty sure it is Tom Cave Jr doing the inscribing. Could " A Cave Mirror " have anything at all with Tom Cave Jr. personaly figuring this mirror? So many questions and so little info!

I did a little more research, looking at the pictures I have on file of these early mirrors, which were all engraved on the back. I'm not an expert at handwriting analysis but here's what is on these mirrors and my take on the similarities of the engraving style, giving similar styles the same Type number:

M74 – Made by Cave Optical Co. Long Beach, Cal (Type 1)
M213 – Cave Optical Co. (Type 1)
M458 – A Cave Mirror (Type 2)
M654 – Cave Optical Co. (Type 2)
R1589 – Refigured by Cave Optical Co. (Type 3)
M2004 – A Cave Mirror (Type 3)

I agree Gregg, I think yours and Lew's were engraved by the same person. But I think the person who engraved M74 and M213 was different than the person who engraved M458 and M654, and this person was also different than the person who engraved yours and Lew's.

M458 also has "A Cave Mirror" on the back. I had this originally listed as M456 but just noticed it is actually M458. I'll correct this in the first posted update of the registry.

Post Extras:

Datapanic
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4433823 - 03/08/11 12:30 AM

Not only do we need an original Tom Cave Jr. signature, but also an Alika Herring signature!

Post Extras:

tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Datapanic]
#4433844 - 03/08/11 12:51 AM

And an Ed Beck signature, and a few other opticians I can't remember that Ed told me about several years ago.

-Tim.

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4436160 - 03/08/11 09:39 PM

IIRC it has been said in a couple of different places Cave Sr. signed all the mirrors untill shortly before his passing in 1959. How this fits into all this I am not sure. And since only some mirrors are inscribed " A Cave Mirror " it must have some significance, I wish I knew what it was! I am also sure I read somewhere that Alika Herring used three specific letters of his name to sign his mirrors?

Edited by greju (03/08/11 09:45 PM)

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: tim53]
#4436184 - 03/08/11 09:51 PM

I finally got around to reading the S&T article – boy, I wish all of the former Cave employees would write something like that. What an excellent story.

Mr. Norton mentions that Alika Herring started in 1953, left in 1960 and came back in 1969. Mr. Norton also left in 1960 and writes that Cave then hired Ed Beck, Bob Crawford and Walt Depampalis.

Some other interesting mirror related tidbits:

Norton quotes 53,000 mirrors and 15,600 complete telescopes. Since he left in 1960 and the article is based on conversations he had with Tom Cave Jr. “last summer” (1993?) I would assume he got these numbers from Tom Cave Jr. Norton wrote that during his career at Cave from 1952 to 1960 he personally made over 600 mirrors. Since the registry confirms the serialization of 16,000-17,000 mirrors, presumably for complete scopes, (we need to fill in the gap between 10/1961 and 6/18/1965 to pin this down) Cave must not have marked the 53,000 mirrors.

Prior to the start of Cave-Wilkinson Optical Co. in December 1950 (soon to become just Cave Optical Co.), Tom Cave Sr. and Jr. made nearly 500 mirrors from 1947 to 1950. I wonder if any inscriptions identify these pre-Cave Optical Co. mirrors?

Norton writes that Tom Cave Sr. ran the business affairs of Cave Optical (implying that he didn’t make mirrors) and, prior to his death in 1957, he scribed the Cave Optical signature in the back of a thousand mirrors in an Old English script style. And, in a humorous story, one was engraved on the front!

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4436480 - 03/09/11 12:13 AM

An interesting tidbit from one of our own.

"Thomas R. Cave Jr. personally engraved each mirror after
final figuring was completed with a diamond pencil marker, a
tradition started by his father. True Cave Optical Co. mirrors
(yes, there are clever copies) are signed on either the side or
back in freehand Old English script with the company's name,
the focal length and ratio, a serial number starting with the
letter “M,” and the date of completion. The co-author’s
Model “A” Deluxe Newtonian has a 6-inch mirror that is
etched “Cave Optical Co., 47 15/16" F.L., F/8, #M672968,
Oct. 23, 1967.”"

Post Extras:

clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4436551 - 03/09/11 01:18 AM Attachment (38 downloads)

Here is my 1965 10" F8 I think Tom JR Signed it. Looks like his hand.

Edited by clintwhitman (03/09/11 01:24 AM)

Post Extras:

clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#4436577 - 03/09/11 01:56 AM Attachment (38 downloads)

New mirror #1 6" F4 WFT M705556 23 7/8" FL Aug 1970 Presently just a mirror I found a few years ago.
Photo 1

Post Extras:

clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#4436578 - 03/09/11 01:57 AM Attachment (36 downloads)

#1 6" F4 WFT M705556 23 7/8" FL Aug 1970 Presently just a mirror I found a few years ago.
Photo 2

Post Extras:

clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#4436580 - 03/09/11 02:00 AM Attachment (30 downloads)

New mirror #2 8" F8 M693959 65 1/4" FL JAN 21st 1969 (Summer of Love Baby) Presently just a mirror I found a few years ago.
Photo 1

Post Extras:

clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#4436584 - 03/09/11 02:03 AM Attachment (37 downloads)

#2 8" F8 M693959 65 1/4" FL JAN 21st 1969 (Summer of Love Baby) Presently just a mirror I found a few years ago.
Photo 2
Not the same hand signed these But they both came out of Cave optical, The original owner picked them up there.
(aveman

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#4437608 - 03/09/11 02:14 PM Attachment (38 downloads)

Tom Cave Jr. signature. Best I could do with my very limited software.

Post Extras:

Dean Norris
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 11/05/08

Loc: Santa Cruz, Ca

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4437788 - 03/09/11 03:33 PM Attachment (42 downloads)

Here's a reply I received from Cave back when I wanted to add rotating rings to my scope. As it turned out I waited to long to purchase and ended up buying rings from Metro Machining.

Hope this helps.

Dean

Post Extras:

Dean Norris
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 11/05/08

Loc: Santa Cruz, Ca

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Dean Norris]
#4437791 - 03/09/11 03:34 PM Attachment (42 downloads)

Close up of the signature.

Dean

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Dean Norris]
#4437987 - 03/09/11 05:16 PM

Almost surely not Caves signature. Bottom most notation confirms this. As has been said many times before Caves secretary most likely signed his correspondence.

"IDENTIFYING INITIALS: When someone other than the author types and finalizes a letter, it is customary to include a line indicating who performed this work. Show the initials of the writer of the letter in capital letters, followed by either a colon or forward-slash and the assistant's initials in lower case letters. For example, RFH:sjs or RFH/sjs."

Post Extras:

Lew Chilton
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/20/05

Loc: SoCal

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4438446 - 03/09/11 08:24 PM

Greju,

Is it possible that the secretary typed the letter and Tom Cave signed it - at least in some cases?

Tom Cave wrote many articles and made many planetary drawings of Mars, Saturn and Jupiter for the Strolling Astronomer, the publication of the Association of Lunar and Planetary Observers (ALPO). (You can go to their website.)

I'll bet someone has the back issues (like Jack Eastman) who could look for articles and drawings by TRC with his signature. Just a thought.

Edited by Lew Chilton (03/09/11 08:34 PM)

Post Extras:

tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Lew Chilton]
#4438524 - 03/09/11 09:11 PM

Dean and others:

Did anyone notice that the script in the signature that Dean posted is similar to the Cave logo? Particularly the capitol C, but even the rest of the word "cave" looks similar.

-Tim.

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Lew Chilton]
#4438546 - 03/09/11 09:20 PM

Lew, sure it is possible but the notation at the bottom of the letter usually signifies someone other than the signee actually composed and signed the letter. As far as a signature accompanying his drawings, that is what I posted.

Post Extras:

doublestar
member

Reged: 11/17/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4438601 - 03/09/11 09:47 PM Attachment (30 downloads)

This signature was done on the bottom of a customer supplied form that requested Cave to reply as to status of order and sign. I don't know for sure that it is Cave's signature, but there is no secretary initials on this one, even though they could have been added since the response was typed.

I have a few other letters, but like others above, have the secretary initials.

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: tim53]
#4438648 - 03/09/11 10:05 PM Attachment (39 downloads)

Tim, could you post a picture of what logo you are referring to? This is the one I have.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4438655 - 03/09/11 10:09 PM Attachment (30 downloads)

Gregg - is that 'tidbit' from John S.? I don't have that mirror in the registry.

At the end of it all maybe this doesn't really matter. I think the penmanship of someone scribing a mirror with a diamond engraver is probably going to look a bit different than that same person writing on a sheet of paper with a pen. I hope we can figure out which mirrors were signed/made by Tom Cave Jr. and others and this might be a factor to consider.

On the block lettered mirrors who knows? Unless someone who was there at the time says "this is my engraving" or "this is how so-and-so engraved them" we will probably never know.

I did a little different processing on that Tom Cave Jr. signature from the Mars drawings. Maybe this is a little better.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#4438660 - 03/09/11 10:12 PM

Clint,

Thanks for the additional mirrors.

I hope you are right on M651485 - my 10" f/6, M716851, is engraved in the same style.

It is odd that M705556 does not have the day in the date, only AUG 1970.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Dean Norris]
#4438671 - 03/09/11 10:16 PM

Dean - thanks. Another secretary, "g", and another signature style to add to the list.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: doublestar]
#4438680 - 03/09/11 10:20 PM

Thanks doublestar - that one is rather different from all the rest in how the R rolls into the C in Cave.

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4438701 - 03/09/11 10:27 PM

Jon, yes. And thanks for cleaning that up.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4438721 - 03/09/11 10:38 PM Attachment (33 downloads)

Here is an update to the registry. Additions/changes from the last one (first post in this thread) are highlighted in yellow. I've also added the date of the image at the top.

Interesting additions:

Gregg's M2004, which expands the range of the "early" no-year-in-the-serial-number mirrors.

L. Regira's M794070 which is now the highest one known and expands the total number by 39.

Clint's M705556, which is now the earliest block engraved mirror.

Total number of mirrors in the registry: 67.

Post Extras:

tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#4438911 - 03/10/11 12:21 AM

Quote:

Tim, could you post a picture of what logo you are referring to? This is the one I have.

It's the logo on the letter head in Dean's post. Also was in the magazine ads that way.

-Tim.

Post Extras:

tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4438923 - 03/10/11 12:27 AM

Quote:

Here is an update to the registry. Additions/changes from the last one (first post in this thread) are highlighted in yellow. I've also added the date of the image at the top.

Interesting additions:

Gregg's M2004, which expands the range of the "early" no-year-in-the-serial-number mirrors.

L. Regira's M794070 which is now the highest one known and expands the total number by 39.

Clint's M705556, which is now the earliest block engraved mirror.

Total number of mirrors in the registry: 67.

Don't forget the 10" Dall-Kirkham I bought from Steve Huston last week.

Mirror possibly from Tinsley, "TLI 762 #2" on both the primary and secondary. Steve told me in an email the other night that it wasn't ever in the showroom, but made to order in 1965. He had to go back to Cave over several months to get the scope and mount. It came with no rings, so Steve drilled the two mounting holes in the tube for putting it on the saddle when the mount was done.

-Tim.

Post Extras:

astro140
super member

Reged: 01/28/08

Loc: Mayhill, New Mexico

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4439777 - 03/10/11 12:19 PM Attachment (39 downloads)

Jon,
Thanks for your great effort!! The mirror in my 8" Cave Cassegrain is signed " Cave Optical Co. MF 738571 F4 Elip 31 3/4" Nov 1, 1973". I know that many of the Cave Cassegrain mirror sets were made by "mirrors from Mars" in Pennsylvania, but from the inscription, this set may have been made by Cave.
Steve,
NM
aka astro140

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: tim53]
#4439948 - 03/10/11 01:33 PM

Tim,

Doh! I was following that thread and completely forgot to add it. I'll add it at the bottom of the next revision since it doesn't fall into the M sequence of numbers.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: astro140]
#4439958 - 03/10/11 01:36 PM

Thanks Steve.

I wonder what the "MF" prefix means?

Is the engraving in cursive script or block letters?

Do you sill have your 6" RFT? I don't have a picture of that one and am wondering what style the engraving is on that one too.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4447577 - 03/13/11 08:13 PM Attachment (32 downloads)

Here's something I haven't seen on a Cave before. While restoring my 8" f/8 Model B Deluxe I found this in the center of the spider. "M" in a "C" with 121749.

Anyone else have something like this on their Cave?

Post Extras:

clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4451500 - 03/15/11 01:03 PM

Not me!

Post Extras:

actionhac
Post Laureate

Reged: 08/09/08

Loc: WA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#4452875 - 03/16/11 01:19 AM

Hi Jon.

I have a 6" student deluxe with the following serial on the primary:

M-727193 F/8 47 3/4"fl. March 20th 1972

Robert

Post Extras:

RLTYS
Post Laureate

Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New York (Long Island)

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: actionhac]
#4453054 - 03/16/11 06:08 AM

Nothing on mine.

Rich (RLTYS)

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: actionhac]
#4453113 - 03/16/11 07:43 AM

Quote:

Hi Jon.

I have a 6" student deluxe with the following serial on the primary:

M-727193 F/8 47 3/4"fl. March 20th 1972

Robert

Thanks Robert. I will get it added to the next update. Is it engraved in cursive or block lettering? Is it possible for you to post a picture?

Post Extras:

actionhac
Post Laureate

Reged: 08/09/08

Loc: WA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4453486 - 03/16/11 11:37 AM Attachment (32 downloads)

I'll need to remove the mirror for a picture of it which I can do soon. I want to have a look at the spider anyway for ID.
I can show off the whole scope though! I bought it a few years ago from the Bellingham WA school district, an old retired workhorse.
Robert

Post Extras:

Lew Chilton
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/20/05

Loc: SoCal

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: actionhac]
#4458730 - 03/18/11 09:11 PM

A PM from 09/28/08 04:14 PM:

Dear Mr Chilton, I am trying to find info about Bert Sproul. His name is engraved on the 8" primary along with Thomas R Cave, June 1952, Long Beach. I have contacted various Cave Enthuiast folks but no one knows about Mr Sproul. I called O. Richard Norton, who remembers that he was an early member of Excelsior. Regards, Fred Franz, Past President, Boise Astronomical Society - Fredbas

Jon,
Here's a reference to the earliest Cave yet - from 1952. It sure would be nice to get the serial no. of this mirror, if it even has one.

Edited by Lew Chilton (03/18/11 09:14 PM)

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Lew Chilton]
#4458834 - 03/18/11 10:20 PM

Yes it sure would Lew! One thing that doesn't seem right to me - if Cave Optical was started in December of 1950, and at that time they started at mirror number M1, it would seem they would have made more than 74 mirrors by May of 1953.

The most interesting period for me are these early mirrors without the year in the serial number as I'd like to figure out how many were made in order to come up with an accurate count of total mirrors made. Right now I can only say that 16,074 were made (14070 + 2004).

We have a big gap in there from October, 1961 to June 18, 1965.

Post Extras:

Lew Chilton
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/20/05

Loc: SoCal

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4459247 - 03/19/11 04:37 AM Attachment (37 downloads)

Jon,
We don't know how long after Cave Optical Co. went into business that it began serializing its mirrors. At what point did it transition from a hobby for Tom Cave and his father to a full-time business? We know that it started out as the Cave-Wilkinson (or Cave-Wilkerson) Co.

I am now doing a little online research and found a newspaper article from 1955 relating to Cave Optical. I'll keep searching for earlier articles/ads.

The article below appeared in the Saturday, Sep. 17, 1955 Long Beach Independent, p. 3. These newspaper clippings are in the public domain.

Edited by Lew Chilton (03/19/11 04:38 AM)

Post Extras:

Lew Chilton
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/20/05

Loc: SoCal

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Lew Chilton]
#4459264 - 03/19/11 05:04 AM Attachment (33 downloads)

The newspaper article below was published in the Sunday, August 29, 1954 issue of the Nevada State Journal, Reno, Nevada, p. 24. It doesn't mention Cave's telescope business per se, but it is so historical I couldn't resist posting it. I found newspaper articles going back to the 1920s that make reference to Thomas R. Cave, Sr., but they're of a more personal nature. They would be more useful in researching a Cave biography as well as a Cave genealogy.

Post Extras:

Lew Chilton
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/20/05

Loc: SoCal

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Lew Chilton]
#4459278 - 03/19/11 05:29 AM Attachment (34 downloads)

In this portion of a newspaper article published in the Long Beach Press-Telegram newspaper, Southland Magazine, p. 14, on December 11, 1960, the number of telescopes made since Cave Optical went into business in 1952 is mentioned. I clipped and saved this article when it was first published and still have it in my old scrapbook.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Lew Chilton]
#4460294 - 03/19/11 04:43 PM

Lew, that is some great research!

You are right, we don't know when they started serializing mirrors. And we don't know what the situation is with the other 53,000 mirrors that are claimed to have been made and sold loose, not in complete Cave scopes.

That 1300 telescope figure in the last article is interesting. Looking at the registry one could make the assumption that about 1700 mirrors would have been serialized by the end of 1960 when it was written so maybe that consisted of 1300 complete telescopes and 400 loose mirrors? And that article says they opened in 1952. Dick Norton wrote that Cave-Wilkinson Optical Co. opened in December 1950 and that the partnership with Louis Wilkinson lasted only 8 weeks.

Post Extras:

astro140
super member

Reged: 01/28/08

Loc: Mayhill, New Mexico

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4491825 - 04/02/11 04:31 PM Attachment (27 downloads)

Quote:

Thanks Steve.

I wonder what the "MF" prefix means?

Is the engraving in cursive script or block letters?

Do you sill have your 6" RFT? I don't have a picture of that one and am wondering what style the engraving is on that one too.

Hi Jon,
Sorry for the delayed response....work gets in the way of fun

The attached is a picture of the serial number portion of my 6 inch f/4 Cave (Block letters).
Steve
NM

Post Extras:

astro140
super member

Reged: 01/28/08

Loc: Mayhill, New Mexico

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: astro140]
#4491928 - 04/02/11 05:42 PM Attachment (26 downloads)

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks Steve.

I wonder what the "MF" prefix means?

Is the engraving in cursive script or block letters?

Jon,
Apparently the "F" was a figment of my imagination...pictures are better!!! Attaching three pictures of the Cave Mirror from the 8-inch Cassegrain...the Signature, Serial Number, and Panco sticker. I used a black felt pen so that the letters would show...easily removed afterwards with acetone. Interesting that the 1973 Rich Field is in Block Letters whereas the 1973 8-inch Cassegrain is in Script Letters.
Steve

Post Extras:

astro140
super member

Reged: 01/28/08

Loc: Mayhill, New Mexico

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: astro140]
#4491933 - 04/02/11 05:44 PM Attachment (26 downloads)

Serial Number 8-inch Cassegrain

Post Extras:

astro140
super member

Reged: 01/28/08

Loc: Mayhill, New Mexico

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: astro140]
#4491938 - 04/02/11 05:45 PM Attachment (32 downloads)

PANCRO sticker on back of 8-inch Cassegrain mirror

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: astro140]
#4491998 - 04/02/11 06:27 PM

Thanks for the update Steve! I know what you mean on the time thing.

It's good to know that prefix is just an M as it should be.

The block letter and cursive letter mirrors are an interesting aspect right now and I don't think any conclusions can be drawn as to what they mean or why they were done. Obviously two different engravers but I suspect there was more than one person doing the cursive style and more than one person doing the block style.

Post Extras:

Dean Norris
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 11/05/08

Loc: Santa Cruz, Ca

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: apfever]
#4494304 - 04/03/11 08:13 PM Attachment (36 downloads)

Jon,

Here's some images showing the inscription on my Cave 10" f/6 mirror. I was wrong about the inscription style. Mine is in block letters.

Thanks for compiling this information.

Dean

Post Extras:

Dean Norris
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 11/05/08

Loc: Santa Cruz, Ca

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Dean Norris]
#4494306 - 04/03/11 08:15 PM Attachment (32 downloads)

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Lew Chilton]
#4494605 - 04/03/11 10:27 PM

Quote:

A PM from 09/28/08 04:14 PM:

Dear Mr Chilton, I am trying to find info about Bert Sproul. His name is engraved on the 8" primary along with Thomas R Cave, June 1952, Long Beach. I have contacted various Cave Enthuiast folks but no one knows about Mr Sproul. I called O. Richard Norton, who remembers that he was an early member of Excelsior. Regards, Fred Franz, Past President, Boise Astronomical Society - Fredbas

Jon,
Here's a reference to the earliest Cave yet - from 1952. It sure would be nice to get the serial no. of this mirror, if it even has one.

Lew,

I received an email from Mr. Franz today with pictures of this mirror and scope.

The mirror is in an 8" f/6.5 Model B Deluxe, an early one with brass Astrola tags, black speckled paint, etc. Odd thing is the mirror is scribed "Refigured by Thomas R. Cave June 1952 8" 52 inch F.L. F 6.5 Long Beach" in very fancy script. There is no serial number on it. The scope looks like models in the red cover catalog on Robert Provin's site. I wish we knew what date that catalog is from.

I'm pretty sure this mirror is not original to the scope as I'm not sure Cave was even making complete scopes in June 1952.

My suspicion is that the serialized mirrors went into complete scopes. If this is true (big if) then serial number M74 would indicate they may have not started producing complete scopes until early to mid 1953. This refigured mirror, being June 1952 with no serial number, goes a tiny way toward confirming this. Or, it at least indicates that Cave might not have serialized the mirrors they made or refigured during the first couple of years they were in business. This is all just speculation on my part.

I now have the complete S&T DVD collection and am going to start poring through them to see if I can pick up any tidbits that might help fill in some blanks.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Dean Norris]
#4494618 - 04/03/11 10:32 PM

Thanks Dean. Interesting - another later mirror with just the month and year, not the day.

Post Extras:

Datapanic
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4494717 - 04/03/11 11:28 PM Attachment (29 downloads)

Hi Jon,

Got around to taking out the 8" Lightweight Deluxe mirror today!

Post Extras:

Datapanic
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Datapanic]
#4494718 - 04/03/11 11:29 PM Attachment (28 downloads)

Date...

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Datapanic]
#4495871 - 04/04/11 01:29 PM

Thanks Dan!

Post Extras:

Lew Chilton
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/20/05

Loc: SoCal

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4516023 - 04/13/11 04:47 PM

PiSigma (Jon),

Another Cave mirror just turned up in the AM ads in the Telescope Making category.

It's an early Cave 12.5” mirror set owned by Shawn Iles of Santa Rosa, California. He posted it for sale on Apr 10, 2011. Here are the particulars for your Cave Mirror Registry:

Cave Optical Co. M-745 #8855 F/7.5 Nov. 1956.

I hope this info. is useful. Perhaps you can contact him for additional details and a picture of the engraving on the back of the mirror (not the edge).

Post Extras:

clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4516272 - 04/13/11 06:52 PM Attachment (27 downloads)

I found an early one yesterday... Made by Tomas R Cave 8" F9 1952 Serial # 48 !!!! Due to the nature and age of the complete telescope I will post the thing... I need and ID on the mount...... (aveman looks like this one was made by the master himself for Mr. Freedman. I was told he was a close personal friend of Tom Caves and the 8" F9 scope is supposed to be a planet killer

OOOO Boy a new project scope

Edited by clintwhitman (04/13/11 06:56 PM)

Post Extras:

Lew Chilton
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/20/05

Loc: SoCal

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#4516679 - 04/13/11 10:36 PM

Clint,

I think Freeman (not Freedman) was a member of the L.A. Astronomical Society. Are the initials H. Freeman? That could be Harry Freeman. He may have been a past president of the club, which was founded in 1926.

We ought to rename this thread "Cave Archaeology." A 1952 Cave mirror is really getting back to the beginning!

Clint, that would be a very historic Cave mirror - is it yours now? I hope so.

-Lew

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Lew Chilton]
#4518836 - 04/14/11 09:39 PM

It is Cave archaeology isn't it Lew?

I contacted the seller of M745 asking for a photograph but no response yet. Thanks!

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#4518840 - 04/14/11 09:41 PM

Clint,

That is really a special one isn't it? I'll bet it is going to be a lulu. F/9 is a bit unusual. And no M before the mirror number. But it fits into the list order.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4518869 - 04/14/11 09:51 PM Attachment (37 downloads)

Here is a current update to the registry.

Since I'm having to compress this a lot to get under the CN image file size limit here is a link to a higher resolution image:

Cave Mirror Registry

Updates from the last list are highlighted in yellow.

Interesting additions:
The two new very early mirrors
Our first pair of consecutive serial numbers, M761940 and M761941, made one day apart
Another Cass with a 'non-standard' serial number

Total mirrors - 79

Post Extras:

JLW
member

Reged: 04/16/11

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4522118 - 04/16/11 01:33 PM

Hi Jon,
Obviously I'm new here, so may not have the protocol correct.
I have a Cave 6" f4 (I think.. tube is 29 1/2 " overall). The mirror has the printed (pencil) word 'cave' on the backside, and a couple inches away in very faint pencil is a digit 1 inside a circle. The last and only time I have had the mirror out for cleaning, I do not recall seeing any engraving along the edge. There is a label on the tube, above the 'focuser' reading "Cave Optical Company 4137 E. Anaheim St. Long Beach Calif. ph; (213)434 2613". The mirror holder is the NOT the 'hippy symbol" you mentioned, rather it appears the same as one photographed by another member. The spider/secondary holder is the same cylindrical unit, 4 vanes, as was submitted by another on the cave pages. The focus unit has only 2 bolts attaching it to the fiberglass tube. Not 4 .
The finish on the mirror back is a very fine 'ground glass' no swirls, etc. It has the Cave (sort of saturn symbol with g and c in the rings)"No.28-OR 28.0mm ortho" eyepiece. I will borrow a digi camera from my son and try to photograph these key features.
I bought the scope 5 or 6 years ago. It is in excellent condition, no digs,dings, scratches, etc. The mirror is dusty and has a few very small spots on it (oxidation ? ) - otherwise is nice, no scratches etc. It came mounted on an equitorial 'pedastal' mount, 3 legs fan out at the base - similar to the old Edmond stlye but with a different clock drive than Edmonds.
My question: Do ALL Cave mirrors have engraved edges (date, f data etc) ? I have no reason to suspect this mirror was ever changed. I do not recall seeing any engraving.
I will try to supply photos of the overall view and details when possible.
Thank you very much, I appreciate this wonderful source of info on the Cave scopes..
Jack (tex03)

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: JLW]
#4522470 - 04/16/11 05:04 PM

Hi Jack and welcome to the Cloudy Nights Classic Telescope forum!

Please post pictures if you can (and keep in mind the size limit here on CN is about 125k).

I have never seen any Cave mirrors marked in pencil. There is an argument to be made that not all Cave mirrors were engraved. There are some owners on here who have Caves with unmarked mirrors but AFAIK they are not the original owners so we don't know for sure if the mirrors were replaced somewhere along the way or if they are original.

One thing is for sure - if Cave made all of the mirrors they claim to have made - ~53,000 loose mirrors and ~15,600 complete telescopes, then there are a lot of unmarked Cave produced mirrors out there as the registry supports a total of 16,074 right now.

Your eyepiece sounds like a Galoc, which were sold by Cave.

Post Extras:

GilATM
super member

Reged: 08/04/07

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4530732 - 04/20/11 01:19 AM

I can add a refigured 12.5" mirror. "Refigured by Cave Optical Co. R672896 f6 77 1/2" FL Sept 4 1967" Script

by the way, I counted the work days between my mirror and the next one on the list - and the number of mirrors completed in that time, and came up with an average produciton of 2 mirrors per day.

I have a 6" I'll take out sometime soon and get info from (it is signed by Alika Herring)

Gil, Ventura CA (I'll try to make the Pintos star party!)

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: GilATM]
#4537110 - 04/22/11 05:27 PM

Thanks Gil.

The rate of mirror production is interesting as you look through the list.

Looking forward to information from your 6". I've only seen a picture of one other mirror with Alika Herring's name engraved in it.

Post Extras:

charles genovese
sage

Reged: 02/04/06

Loc: Madisonville Louisiana

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4537155 - 04/22/11 05:44 PM Attachment (24 downloads)

Interesting the biggest mirror is 12 1/2 so far. Well here is a 16" from my 16 " Observatory scope. Mirror and tube are for sale by the way.

Post Extras:

charles genovese
sage

Reged: 02/04/06

Loc: Madisonville Louisiana

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4537171 - 04/22/11 05:50 PM Attachment (32 downloads)

whole scope on a temporary wooden pier

Post Extras:

charles genovese
sage

Reged: 02/04/06

Loc: Madisonville Louisiana

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: charles genovese]
#4537237 - 04/22/11 06:18 PM Attachment (24 downloads)

Regarding Tom's signature, he signed my catalogue while we were all staying at Tom Dobbins' home about 1995.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: charles genovese]
#4537264 - 04/22/11 06:29 PM

That's excellent Charles! Finally, a 16" to add to the list and a bona fide Tom Cave signature. Thank you!

One digit on that serial number is hard to make out - is it M750547 or 647. That third digit from the end looks like a 5 they tried to turn into a 6.

Post Extras:

charles genovese
sage

Reged: 02/04/06

Loc: Madisonville Louisiana

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4537291 - 04/22/11 06:42 PM

Jon- That was my guess also- a 5 turned into a 6. Sure is a monster- 3 1/2" thick and 55#!

Edited by charles genovese (04/22/11 06:43 PM)

Post Extras:

L. Regira
sage

Reged: 07/10/05

Loc: Theriot, LA 29' 25"N; 90.46W

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: charles genovese]
#4537305 - 04/22/11 06:46 PM

I happened to find a link to the gettogether where you met Tom Cave in 1997.
http://www.alpo-astronomy.org/jbeish/Meetings.htm

Post Extras:

charles genovese
sage

Reged: 02/04/06

Loc: Madisonville Louisiana

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: L. Regira]
#4537361 - 04/22/11 07:11 PM

Yep! Great get together!

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: charles genovese]
#4537548 - 04/22/11 08:28 PM

Quote:

Jon- That was my guess also- a 5 turned into a 6. Sure is a monster- 3 1/2" thick and 55#!

Actually, I now think it is supposed to be a 5. The next one I have in the registry is M750586 which is dated May 29, 1975. Since yours is dated May 16, 1975 it should be a lower number. M750647 wouldn't work as that would put it after M750586 but with an earlier date.

Post Extras:

JLW
member

Reged: 04/16/11

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: JLW]
#4541764 - 04/24/11 07:46 PM Attachment (17 downloads)

A follow up on my post on the 16th in re CAve:
I will attempt to post a couple photos of my 6" f4.. Not sure how to do this, so...

Post Extras:

JLW
member

Reged: 04/16/11

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: JLW]
#4541794 - 04/24/11 08:03 PM Attachment (18 downloads)

Another shot:

Edited by JLW (04/24/11 08:04 PM)

Post Extras:

JLW
member

Reged: 04/16/11

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: JLW]
#4541807 - 04/24/11 08:12 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

The Cave name...again. I don't know where the first try went ?

Post Extras:

JLW
member

Reged: 04/16/11

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: JLW]
#4541813 - 04/24/11 08:14 PM Attachment (19 downloads)

The last.. The cave label is to the left of the eyepiece.
When I get the courage and time I will pull the mirror and look for any marking on the edge.

Edited by JLW (04/24/11 08:21 PM)

Post Extras:

eisenge
member

Reged: 03/13/06

Loc: Ohio

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: JLW]
#4543645 - 04/25/11 05:30 PM Attachment (20 downloads)

Jon, please add my 6" f8 Cave mirror to the registry. I ordered it as a loose mirror in 1969.

Geoff

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: eisenge]
#4544089 - 04/25/11 09:23 PM

Thanks Geoff and welcome to Cloudy Nights.

That is interesting that you ordered that mirror new as a loose mirror. One of my theories was that the serialized mirrors only came in complete scopes. I guess that blows that theory.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: JLW]
#4544118 - 04/25/11 09:39 PM

Thanks for the pictures Jack. I think the pencil "Cave" on the back of your mirror was added by someone to help identify which scope it was out of. Perhaps someone had several mirrors of the same size and wanted to note which one was for the Cave. Or maybe a recoater did it.

It would be interesting to see if there is any engraving on the edge.

Post Extras:

gelkin
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 09/22/10

Loc: Western, MD.

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: eisenge]
#4544129 - 04/25/11 09:45 PM

Quote:

Jon, please add my 6" f8 Cave mirror to the registry. I ordered it as a loose mirror in 1969.

Geoff

That's excellent lighting of your mirror engraving.

Post Extras:

JLW
member

Reged: 04/16/11

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4544272 - 04/25/11 10:51 PM

Jon,
Please feel free to remove those photos to free up space. Now that you've seen them, there is little value in keeping them. (I'm getting more curious about the edge of my mirror ! )
Jack

Post Extras:

eisenge
member

Reged: 03/13/06

Loc: Ohio

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: gelkin]
#4544429 - 04/26/11 12:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Jon, please add my 6" f8 Cave mirror to the registry. I ordered it as a loose mirror in 1969.

Geoff

That's excellent lighting of your mirror engraving.

I placed the mirror on a glass table and illuminated it from underneath. This appears to help with contrast and reduces reflections off the edge.

Geoff

Post Extras:

eisenge
member

Reged: 03/13/06

Loc: Ohio

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4544434 - 04/26/11 12:14 AM

Quote:

Thanks Geoff and welcome to Cloudy Nights.

That is interesting that you ordered that mirror new as a loose mirror. One of my theories was that the serialized mirrors only came in complete scopes. I guess that blows that theory.

Your theory may still hold. It's possible that my mirror was intended for a complete scope or OTA, but was sent to me to fill the order in a reasonable amount of time. I do recall having to wait a couple months for it to arrive.

Geoff

Post Extras:

Da Bear
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 11/21/06

Loc: Kali-Forn-Ya

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: eisenge]
#4546570 - 04/26/11 10:05 PM

My six inch Cave mirror was out today so here is the info:

Block Letters - gold Panco sticker still attached.

Cave Optical Co.
M-76-1435 - f/6 - 34 3/4" FL. - Feb - 13 - 1976

It still has traces of the polishing rouge on the sides. Original coating is in wonderful condition, except where the cork on the clips touched the mirror face.

This is one of the mirrors for a custom ordered scope. A Cave 6" reflector piggybacks on top of a Cave 10" refector using a non- rotating pair of rings. I'm the second owner.

Da Bear

Lee DeCovnick

Post Extras:

Datapanic
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4546735 - 04/26/11 11:30 PM

Quote:

Thanks Geoff and welcome to Cloudy Nights.

That is interesting that you ordered that mirror new as a loose mirror. One of my theories was that the serialized mirrors only came in complete scopes. I guess that blows that theory.

What about all those thousands of Cave mirrors that were sold separately? Were they unmarked? Where are they? Who has one?

Post Extras:

tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Datapanic]
#4546837 - 04/27/11 12:13 AM

From what I remember from conversations with Ed and Bob Beck, all Cave mirrors were marked and the serial numbers recorded.

My 4.25" f/5 mirror even has engraving on it. Come to think of it, I should probably pull that and add it to the registry. It's interesting, as it's signed and dated by Ron Ezra, as he made it for himself at Cave and after hours. I doubt Tom Cave knew about it, and likely wouldn't have approved! But it's cool, anywhoo. And historic! As it was sometime in the mid 70's that he made it. I bought the OTA from him when I worked at Meade in 1979. Still have it.

-Tim.

Post Extras:

tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: tim53]
#4546841 - 04/27/11 12:15 AM

...wouldn't it be cool if someone came across a log book with all the serial numbers in it?

-Tim.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: JLW]
#4547739 - 04/27/11 01:31 PM

Quote:

Jon,
Please feel free to remove those photos to free up space. Now that you've seen them, there is little value in keeping them. (I'm getting more curious about the edge of my mirror ! )
Jack

No problem Jack. They can stay up. We all like looking at pictures of Caves. I can't delete them anyway. Only the original poster (you) or a moderator can do that.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Da Bear]
#4547755 - 04/27/11 01:35 PM

Thanks Lee. I'll add it.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Datapanic]
#4547817 - 04/27/11 01:59 PM

Quote:

What about all those thousands of Cave mirrors that were sold separately? Were they unmarked? Where are they? Who has one?

That's the $64k question now isn't it?

Since the fist series of mirrors presumably goes from M1 to at least M2004 and the second group with the year in the serial number goes from probably Mxx0001 to at least M794070 with a roll over in late 1975 that's 2004 + 14070 = 16,074. The current range of known serial numbers doesn't support many more than that. We have numbers all the way up to 11/15/1979 which had to be close to the end. We have a big gap from October 1961 until 6/18/1965 that will increase the total but not by a lot.

Where are all of these other mirrors Cave supposedly made? Of course if they are not marked you wouldn't know they were Caves. We would need someone who ordered a loose mirror back then for an ATM project to say, yes I ordered a loose mirror from Cave but it wasn't engraved.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: tim53]
#4547827 - 04/27/11 02:06 PM

Quote:

...wouldn't it be cool if someone came across a log book with all the serial numbers in it?

-Tim.

That would be majorly Cool. I wonder if one of Tom Cave's children have any of the documents relating to the business?

Post Extras:

eisenge
member

Reged: 03/13/06

Loc: Ohio

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4548360 - 04/27/11 07:09 PM

Jon, I stumbled across a reference to a Cave mirror that may not be on your list: M716716.

For details (sans picture) see the post by "Kron96":

http://www.spacekb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/amateur-astronomy/7672/Cave-mirror-info

Here's another: M705058

http://cs.astronomy.com/asycs/forums/p/27959/352860.aspx

And one more: M762207

http://www.rca-omsi.org/news/2002.pdf

This pdf is the 2002 issue of the Rosette Gazette (Rose City Astronomers). In the ad section you will find:

FOR SALE: 10 inch Cave, Newtonian, on Cave equatorial mount.
Mirror engraved on edge: M762207 CAVE OPTICAL CO. 10"
OCT 7 1976 FL 50 15/16". Mirror in good condition. Mount looks
good after a fast inspection, motors might not work. $1200.

Geoff

Edited by eisenge (04/28/11 12:03 AM)

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: eisenge]
#4551286 - 04/29/11 10:01 AM

Thanks for those finds Geoff. I'll add them.

Post Extras:

skypilgrim
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 12/25/06

Loc: PNW, US

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4570671 - 05/09/11 12:35 AM Attachment (25 downloads)

Hi Jon,

Just saw this thread. Here is the s/n, etc for my 8" Cave:

M-727338
F/7
56 3/8"
APR-20-1972
Mike Sutherland

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: skypilgrim]
#4571425 - 05/09/11 01:23 PM

Thanks Mike. I actually caught it when you posted it to the Cave Yahoo group as I monitor that also.

Post Extras:

Da Bear
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 11/21/06

Loc: Kali-Forn-Ya

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4587473 - 05/17/11 07:21 PM

Jon,

My 10" Cave mirror Info.

Cave Optical Co.
M75 0740
July 2, 1975
59 3/4" F.L.

thanks,
Da Bear

Edited by Da Bear (05/17/11 07:39 PM)

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Da Bear]
#4587815 - 05/17/11 10:50 PM

Thanks Lee!

Post Extras:

Kody
newbie

Reged: 01/02/11

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4588532 - 05/18/11 11:52 AM

Jon,
Please add my 4.25" mirror to the registry:
Mirror serial number #R738178,
Focal Length = 33 13/16” FL

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Kody]
#4588716 - 05/18/11 01:34 PM

Will do Kody. And welcome to Cloudy Nights.

That's interesting - a 4.25" Cave refigure. Does it have a date on it? Any chance you could post a picture?

Post Extras:

Kody
newbie

Reged: 01/02/11

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4590114 - 05/19/11 08:12 AM

Hi Jon, and thanks for the welcome.

I currently don’t have a picture of the mirror, but I’ll get one to you.

A description of the inscription:
Cave Optical Co is in a crude cursive style script and below it the number #R738178, next is my name in block letters followed by 4 1/4” F8 33 13/16”. All inscriptions are on the back of the mirror.

In 1971 I purchased the 4.25” mirror making kit from University Optic and using the instructions outlined in Allyn Thompson’s book “Making Your Own Telescope” attempted to make a mirror. After several months of frustration I gave up and sent the mirror to Cave to be finished (the surface was in such bad shape, I’m reluctant to call it a refigure job). The finished mirror was returned in 1973 and the rest of the scope was made, per Thompson’s book, by a friend/mentor, who had a machine shop in his basement.

After reading some of the post on Classic Telescopes I was inspired to restore the old 4 ¼” back to its original condition.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Kody]
#4591583 - 05/19/11 10:13 PM

Thanks Kody. That's a neat story about your mirror.

Post Extras:

Michael Cave
sage

Reged: 10/24/10

Loc: St. Louis, MO

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4611863 - 05/30/11 09:00 PM Attachment (23 downloads)

Quote:

Here's something I haven't seen on a Cave before. While restoring my 8" f/8 Model B Deluxe I found this in the center of the spider. "M" in a "C" with 121749.

Anyone else have something like this on their Cave?

Hi Jon,

I have that same type S/N on my 10" f7

Mike

Post Extras:

Michael Cave
sage

Reged: 10/24/10

Loc: St. Louis, MO

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Michael Cave]
#4611884 - 05/30/11 09:15 PM Attachment (27 downloads)

Hi Jon,

Here's the 10" Ser#

Mike

Post Extras:

Michael Cave
sage

Reged: 10/24/10

Loc: St. Louis, MO

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Michael Cave]
#4611887 - 05/30/11 09:17 PM Attachment (28 downloads)

And....
The fl shot..

Mike

Post Extras:

Michael Cave
sage

Reged: 10/24/10

Loc: St. Louis, MO

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Michael Cave]
#4611892 - 05/30/11 09:21 PM Attachment (25 downloads)

And...
The 12½" S/N

Mike

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Michael Cave]
#4612580 - 05/31/11 09:42 AM

Thanks for the info and pictures Mike. And another one with a serial number on the spider - that's interesting.

Post Extras:

Michael Cave
sage

Reged: 10/24/10

Loc: St. Louis, MO

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4612707 - 05/31/11 10:54 AM

Hi Jon,

Do you have any ideas about the spider number?

Mike

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Michael Cave]
#4613008 - 05/31/11 01:24 PM

I wish I did. Yours and mine are the only two I've seen so far. It looks like maybe they had a separate set of serial numbers for the secondaries but they are not on every complete scope. They obviously don't match the primary serial number and the first two digits can't be the year like the later primaries. I don't know what the 'M' in a 'C' means either.

Another mystery.....

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4613016 - 05/31/11 01:29 PM Attachment (28 downloads)

It's been a while so here is an update on the registry.

Changes from the 4/14/11 list are highlighted in yellow.

A higher resolution version is here:

Cave Mirror Registry 5/31/2011

A total of 90 mirrors now in the registry.

Post Extras:

Ron359
member

Reged: 04/21/08

Loc: Evergreen, CO. USA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4614849 - 06/01/11 12:31 PM Attachment (29 downloads)

I finally pulled my 12.5" mirror for some work on mirror cell and took a photo of the inscription: Made by Cave Optical La M683502 May 24, 1968. Thanks for doing this.

Ron

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Ron359]
#4618124 - 06/03/11 09:52 AM

Thanks Ron. I'll get it in the next update along with a 12.5" mirror I spotted in the CN classifieds.

Interesting that yours is engraved "Made by" before the "Cave Optical Co." (I think that "La" is actually the usual "Co." but the engraver slipped).

Post Extras:

Aleko
super member

Reged: 08/01/10

Loc: Georgia

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4619524 - 06/03/11 11:50 PM

Regarding the "missing mirrors", I don't think I've seen it mentioned (if so, I'm sorry I missed it), but the S&T article from August 1994 mentioned that Cave did a large amount of contract work for the aerospace industry, as well as doing over a thousand mirrors for Questar.

Here is some registry info on an 8-in mirror I recently received from a friend:

Cursive writing on back: M380, Cave Optical Co., F.L. 64 5/16, F8, Aug. 1955

This mirror was given to my friend, who was then a teenager, by the Caves. It was put into a home-made telescope. The mirror coating, by Clausing, is in near mint condition 50+ years later.

Alex

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Aleko]
#4620547 - 06/04/11 03:24 PM

Hi Alex.

No, the contract mirrors mentioned in the S&T article have not been discussed here and that is a good point. Cave would have probably included those in any total manufacturing numbers for the company. And I would guess they never had "Cave" marked on them anywhere. If they did I would think we would have run across one on this forum (marked Cave but with no serial number).

The other odd thing is - The registry confirms the existence of at least 16,074 serialized mirrors. The S&T article states they made 15,600 complete scopes. If all of the mirrors that went into complete scopes were serialized then there were only about 474 serialized mirrors sold loose for ATM'ers. I find that hard to believe. I would have thought that Cave would have sold more loose mirrors to ATMs than complete scopes.

Since the 15,600 number and the 16,074 number are so close I'm almost willing to make the leap and say serialized mirrors only came in complete scopes. But, as the registry shows, there are many mirrors listed that are not in complete Cave scopes. Now these could have been separated from their original OTAs over time. But my guess is that all Cave mirrors that were sold to the public by Cave Optical Co. were serialized and that they actually made far fewer than 15,600 complete scopes.

All speculation on my part though.

Thanks for the information on M380. If you could post a picture sometime that would be great. These very early mirrors are especially interesting.

Post Extras:

charles genovese
sage

Reged: 02/04/06

Loc: Madisonville Louisiana

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4630577 - 06/09/11 04:04 PM

http://www.cloudynights.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=44696&sort=&cat=last7&page=3
One for sale

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: charles genovese]
#4631126 - 06/09/11 10:00 PM

Thanks Charles. Got it.

Post Extras:

sgorton99
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 04/30/08

Loc: Wisconsin, Madison

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4690975 - 07/13/11 08:26 PM Attachment (22 downloads)

Here you go Jon - I am told the scope is an 8" Lightweight Deluxe. It is an f/6 and the serial number is M704932.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: sgorton99]
#4694576 - 07/15/11 08:19 PM Attachment (20 downloads)

Thanks Steve.

We have a half dozen new mirrors, including some early series numbers so it seems time for an update.

Changes from the 5/31/2011 list are highlighted in yellow. I added more detailed descriptions of the engraving on the early series mirrors that I have pictures of.

A higher resolution version is here:

Cave Mirror Registry 7/15/2011

A total of 96 mirrors are now in the registry.

Post Extras:

ionguy
newbie

Reged: 08/15/09

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Michael Cave]
#4697560 - 07/17/11 04:57 PM

Guess what Mr Cave....My 12.5" Cave Mirror is only 2 numbers behind you... M705158! The mirrors must have been almost side by side in the assembly line. I got it 3rd hand and suspect it was purchased as an off the shelf unit.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: ionguy]
#4697624 - 07/17/11 05:31 PM

Hi ionguy,

Please post a picture if you can and let me know the date and FL. I'll add it to the next update.

Post Extras:

d.sireci51
Arachnoid

Reged: 11/19/09

Loc: The Tholian Web [S. Wisconsin]

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4699692 - 07/18/11 08:19 PM

I Jon, Please add my 1969 CAVE Mirror to the Registry. Its in cursive reading; "CAVE OPTICAL CO #M694717 F/5 49 1/2" Oct 30 1969" Please note that the number "3" is inscribed over a number "2". I have a photo of the inscription, but would need to email it to you. Its 752KB, if I cropped it to 12000 bytes it wouldnt be ledgable. The Model C Deluxe mount and OTA are still in working condition. Altho the Mirror is getting near the need for a recoat and the secondary is broken. The scope is complete, save for the original finder, eyepieces, and broken secondary. Clear Skies and thank you, D.Sireci

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: d.sireci51]
#4699864 - 07/18/11 10:18 PM

Thank you. I will get it added. I've PM'd you about the photo.

Post Extras:

ltha
sage

Reged: 11/22/05

Loc: Long Beach, CA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4699987 - 07/18/11 11:20 PM

Hi Jon,

I sent along pictures of the inscriptions on the mirror from my 8" Model "B" Deluxe yesterday. Not sure if you received it.

In the next few days I will pull the primary from a 10" F/8 I bought a few months ago and send that as well. Have to take the pictures first.

Larry Thaxton

Edited by ltha (07/18/11 11:23 PM)

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: ltha]
#4725717 - 08/01/11 10:55 PM

Hi Larry,

Somehow I missed your post until now. I didn't receive the pictures. I've sent a PM.

Post Extras:

HBRGSE
newbie

Reged: 09/18/11

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4828653 - 09/26/11 01:19 PM Attachment (44 downloads)

Here's data on a scope I'm trying to fix up. The mirrors got rinsed last night (it was improperly stored for a long time, apparently) and I took the opportunity to get a full set of pictures. I can't wait to try it out!

It has block lettering scribed on the side of the main mirror and pencil on the back of both mirrors. The serial number is M748896, but I'm having to guess at that "6". The writing twice identifies the customer (Clemson University in South Carolina), but I'm struck by how "Cave" is mentioned three times, especially the note on the back of the mirror and the parenthetical "(CAVE)" on the side. What do you guys make of it?

PS As a first time poster, I hope the PDF works--I find it a handy way to pack up 9 MB of pictures.

PPS Thanks Jon for starting the thread--it helped me figure out I had a little piece of history in my care!

Post Extras:

GaryJCarter
sage

Reged: 06/06/09

Loc: Fairview, Texas

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: HBRGSE]
#4829249 - 09/26/11 06:52 PM

Jon,

I bought my 6" mirror on AM auction in 2009 it is inscribed as follows:

"M683941 Cave Optical Co F/8 - 47-7/8" F.L. Dec 28 - 1968" in block letters.

It's now in a new Parks tube and mirror cell.

Edited by GaryJCarter (09/26/11 06:54 PM)

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: HBRGSE]
#4832262 - 09/28/11 01:31 PM

Hi David and welcome to the CN Classic Telescope forum.

The pdf comes down fine, nice pictures. I'm also going to go with a "6" for that last digit. The engraving in the second, third and fourth pictures certainly looks original. We have seen a number of Cave mirrors with block lettering where the "V" in Cave is taller than the rest of the lettering. I'm not sure what it means though.

The pencil markings may have been added during a recoat maybe. I'm not sure about those first two pictures but they could also be original although I'm not sure why Cave would engrave "(CAVE)" when they already did with "Cave Optical Co."

Thanks for the addition to the registry.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: GaryJCarter]
#4832272 - 09/28/11 01:34 PM

Thanks for the addition Gary.

I'm waiting on a few CN members who have some additional mirrors to add and then I'll be posting a new update.

Post Extras:

ltha
sage

Reged: 11/22/05

Loc: Long Beach, CA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4833180 - 09/28/11 11:29 PM

Hi Jon,

I will have three more to add to the registry soon, probably after I pick one up over the upcoming weekend. One is a very unique Cave mirror that I think Cave folks will find very interesting. More to follow!

Larry

Edited by ltha (09/28/11 11:30 PM)

Post Extras:

sgorton99
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 04/30/08

Loc: Wisconsin, Madison

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: ltha]
#4833482 - 09/29/11 05:52 AM

Jon - I also have a 10" CAVE mirror on the way to me. Will send you a pic.

Steve

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: sgorton99]
#4833767 - 09/29/11 09:46 AM

Cool! Keep 'em coming.

Post Extras:

sgorton99
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 04/30/08

Loc: Wisconsin, Madison

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4842275 - 10/03/11 08:52 PM Attachment (19 downloads)

April, 1959. F/5 M1414

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: sgorton99]
#4842475 - 10/03/11 10:45 PM

Sweet! A real oldie.

Thanks Steve.

Post Extras:

albert1
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: Southern New Jersey

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4842563 - 10/03/11 11:32 PM

Very nice Steve. '59, long time ago. I hope you can get a hold of the other parts. Quite something the seller was willing and able to do all that disassembling. Good job convincing him not to trash it.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: albert1]
#4852162 - 10/09/11 01:37 PM Attachment (23 downloads)

Well, I think we are due for another update.

We have 11 new mirrors since the last update, including some early series numbers.

Changes from the 7/15/2011 list are highlighted in yellow.

A higher resolution version is here:

Cave Mirror Registry 10/9/2011

A total of 107 mirrors are now in the registry.

Post Extras:

RLTYS
Post Laureate

Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New York (Long Island)

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4853434 - 10/10/11 08:06 AM

Wow, the list is getting big.

Rich (RLTYS)

Post Extras:

ccaissie
sage

Reged: 09/13/10

Loc: Whitefield, Maine

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: RLTYS]
#4854594 - 10/10/11 07:44 PM

"Where are all of these other mirrors Cave supposedly made? Of course if they are not marked you wouldn't know they were Caves. We would need someone who ordered a loose mirror back then for an ATM project to say, yes I ordered a loose mirror from Cave but it wasn't engraved."

Our club just recoated an exquisite 12.5 f/6. It was part of the estate of R. Burley. The mirror was in a box with the address sticker from Cave, to Burley.

There is only an engraved "F/6" on the bottom.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: ccaissie]
#4855412 - 10/11/11 09:45 AM

Quote:

"Where are all of these other mirrors Cave supposedly made? Of course if they are not marked you wouldn't know they were Caves. We would need someone who ordered a loose mirror back then for an ATM project to say, yes I ordered a loose mirror from Cave but it wasn't engraved."

Our club just recoated an exquisite 12.5 f/6. It was part of the estate of R. Burley. The mirror was in a box with the address sticker from Cave, to Burley.

There is only an engraved "F/6" on the bottom.

Thank you for that information. It seems fairly certain to me that there are a lot of mirrors out there that were made by Cave but, unfortunately, have no engraving to indicate that.

Post Extras:

BianchiAZ
super member

Reged: 01/04/08

Loc: Roseville, Michigan

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4880562 - 10/25/11 11:58 PM

let me try this again. Name is Richard Johnson. This mirror is in your registry but not under my name. You may put my name there.

Post Extras:

BianchiAZ
super member

Reged: 01/04/08

Loc: Roseville, Michigan

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: BianchiAZ]
#4880569 - 10/26/11 12:02 AM

And on the bottom. Pancro sticker and black marker, Writing says " KELLER - PITTSBURGH,-KA

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: BianchiAZ]
#4881009 - 10/26/11 09:50 AM

Thanks Richard. I'll get it in the next update.

Post Extras:

albert1
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: Southern New Jersey

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4907396 - 11/09/11 08:02 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Here's another one for the record Jon.

12.5" Transportable.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: albert1]
#4908979 - 11/10/11 04:59 PM

Thanks Albert!

Post Extras:

SlantS
journeyman

Reged: 12/22/11

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4981714 - 12/23/11 05:21 PM

Name: Craig J.

It looks like they started cursive and switched to block writing. There is nothing on the back.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g318/craigjacob1/Telescope/SAM_0578.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g318/craigjacob1/Telescope/SAM_0577.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g318/craigjacob1/Telescope/SAM_0587.jpg

6"

Edited by SlantS (12/23/11 05:36 PM)

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: SlantS]
#4981886 - 12/23/11 07:14 PM

Thanks Craig. I'll get it added.

I have a number of new mirrors since the last update so I'll post a new one here shortly.

Post Extras:

orion61
Vendor(Clear Edge Optical)

Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: NW Iowa BURRRR

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4985621 - 12/26/11 02:15 PM

I did not see my 1959 Cave 8" on the registry?
mine was a refigure and the etching was on the bottom of the mirror not the edge??? it was signed.
I posted pix on the Cave forum..
friends
Orion

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: orion61]
#4985920 - 12/26/11 06:37 PM

Hi Larry,

That's because I haven't posted an update since I added yours.

I hope all readers of this thread realize that I can't edit the earlier posts. So the listing in the first post is very stale.

It is time for an update so here goes.....

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4985927 - 12/26/11 06:41 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

Time for a new registry update as we have some interesting additions.

We have 9 new mirrors since the last update including some early ones.

I was going back through some AM ads and found a late one I had missed. And this is a very late one which now becomes the last known mirror – M794110. So we now can say the total range of mirrors adds up to 16,114 (2004+14110).

Also of interest are a group of early mirrors which do not have Ms in front of the serial number. I have #1163, I found a picture on the Internet of Al Paslow's, #1193, and there was an AM sale of #1366 which the former owner is certain also didn’t have an M. #1163 and #1193 also appear to be undated although Al’s has a date of 8/10/58 written on the Pancro sticker. The engravings on #1163 and #1193 are almost exactly the same and were clearly done by the same person. I haven’t been able to get a picture of #1366.

Changes from the 10/9/2011 list are highlighted in yellow.

A higher resolution version is here:

Cave Mirror Registry 12/26/2011

A total of 116 mirrors are now in the registry.

Post Extras:

Venetia2004
sage

Reged: 08/27/05

Loc: Lynnwood, WA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4992835 - 12/30/11 08:21 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

I've just started restoring my 8" f/5 Cave. It has a 2.14" secondary. This is the main mirror after washing and of course a few pics with the info...

Vic
Lynnwood, WA

Post Extras:

Venetia2004
sage

Reged: 08/27/05

Loc: Lynnwood, WA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Venetia2004]
#4992841 - 12/30/11 08:23 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

Another pic...

Post Extras:

Venetia2004
sage

Reged: 08/27/05

Loc: Lynnwood, WA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Venetia2004]
#4992846 - 12/30/11 08:24 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

And another one...

Post Extras:

Venetia2004
sage

Reged: 08/27/05

Loc: Lynnwood, WA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Venetia2004]
#4992847 - 12/30/11 08:25 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

Last one...

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: Venetia2004]
#4992939 - 12/30/11 09:19 PM

Thanks Vic, I'll get it added.

We'd love to see pictures of the complete scope when you get it back together.

Post Extras:

PhotoGazer
super member

Reged: 09/26/07

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#4996759 - 01/02/12 12:11 AM

I have what I was told was a Cave 12.5" f8 OTA. Everything about the tube, cell, focuser, and finder indicate that it is a Cave, but there is no inscription on the mirror at all. It does have the Pancro sticker from the back of the mirror. Should I have any reason to question otherwise on the fact that this is a Cave?

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PhotoGazer]
#4998422 - 01/02/12 10:29 PM

Hi Mike,

The Cave history written by Richard Norton states that Cave made 53,000 mirrors and 15,600 complete telescopes. The registry supports 16,114 serialized mirrors. So it seems there are a lot of mirrors out there made by Cave that have no Cave identification on them. Some of these would have been contract mirrors for other manufacturers so I wouldn't expect any Cave identification on those.

It is certainly possible there are complete Cave scopes out there which came from the shop with no engraving. But so far I haven't seen anyone state they are the original owner of a Cave with an unserialized mirror. The Pancro sticker is certainly a plus as they coated all of Cave's mirrors.

Post Extras:

PhotoGazer
super member

Reged: 09/26/07

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5007285 - 01/08/12 12:43 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

Thanks Jon. I have the original tube and it looks like a Cave. Here are some pics of the original finder scope and the original focuser as well. Hopefully this will help some of the Cave gurus here some insight on whether I have a Cave.

Post Extras:

PhotoGazer
super member

Reged: 09/26/07

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PhotoGazer]
#5007288 - 01/08/12 12:45 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

The focuser #1

Post Extras:

PhotoGazer
super member

Reged: 09/26/07

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PhotoGazer]
#5007290 - 01/08/12 12:45 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

Another view of the focuser.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PhotoGazer]
#5012250 - 01/11/12 01:24 PM

The focuser looks very Meade-ish to me (but then Cave did use Meade parts at times) and the finder and rings don't look like any Cave used that I've seen.

Can you post a picture of the entire OTA? Does it have rotating rings or end rings?

Post Extras:

PhotoGazer
super member

Reged: 09/26/07

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5023929 - 01/18/12 12:05 AM Attachment (18 downloads)

Jon,

Here are a few more pics of the scope as I got it. It was on a huge carriage and difficult to use.

Mike

Post Extras:

PhotoGazer
super member

Reged: 09/26/07

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PhotoGazer]
#5023932 - 01/18/12 12:06 AM Attachment (10 downloads)

Here is another shot of the focuser area.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PhotoGazer]
#5024771 - 01/18/12 01:19 PM

Well I think I see a pair of offset holes that would have been typical of the ones that would have had screws that held the inner rotating rings of a Cave installation. But others may have done something similar. The end rings look like the flat riveted style of the late '50s and '60s. But the focuser looks more modern to me.

Is that tube fiberglass? It looks to be in very good shape.

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greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5024883 - 01/18/12 02:09 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

It could be just the camera angle but I do not see a Cave label on the tube anywhere. I would bet that Pancro worked with other's than just Cave.

I believe this focuser is one sold by Meade in about 1976 and does not look the the focuser above. I do not know if this focuser is the same ones Cave might have used. This question may have been already answered but I wonder if Cave got the focusers from Meade or Meades Japanese supplier? It would make sense that Cave got them from Meade directly as they were practically neighbors.

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tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#5024916 - 01/18/12 02:25 PM

Meade's (and others') Japanese suppliers.

Your OTA does look 1960s, based on the riveted on end rings (like my 1965 10" DK Cassegrain). Meade wasn't around yet. But the Japanese manufacturer of that focuser probably was. I think University Optics sold one like that. All the Meade focusers from the 70's had smooth paint finishes. I'm not sure who sold one with that pebble-textured finish. Also, the 2" eyepiece holder was short, like the one in your pic above in the plastic bag. The one on your scope adds backfocus to the system. I'm not sure why they would want to do that, unless they also had an adapter for an SLR camera that was shorter - in which case it is one way to get the focus out for both eyepieces and cameras without requiring the mirror be moved forward for photography (like the Meades had to).

-Tim.

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tim53
Postmaster

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Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PhotoGazer]
#5024920 - 01/18/12 02:29 PM

Quote:

Jon,

Here are a few more pics of the scope as I got it. It was on a huge carriage and difficult to use.

Mike

Do you have photos of this "carriage?" Was it the original Cave mount? If so, and if it's not too late, I'd go get it. The scope will hold its value better if it's complete when you go to sell it (even if you don't use the mount while you have it).

-Tim.

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: tim53]
#5024925 - 01/18/12 02:32 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

Quote:

Meade's (and others') Japanese suppliers.

Your OTA does look 1960s, based on the riveted on end rings (like my 1965 10" DK Cassegrain). Meade wasn't around yet. But the Japanese manufacturer of that focuser probably was. I think University Optics sold one like that. All the Meade focusers from the 70's had smooth paint finishes. I'm not sure who sold one with that pebble-textured finish. Also, the 2" eyepiece holder was short, like the one in your pic above in the plastic bag. The one on your scope adds backfocus to the system. I'm not sure why they would want to do that, unless they also had an adapter for an SLR camera that was shorter - in which case it is one way to get the focus out for both eyepieces and cameras without requiring the mirror be moved forward for photography (like the Meades had to).

-Tim.

Just to clarify I only supplied the picture of the focuser above in reply to Photogazer's posts. I know my Cave is a Cave.

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clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#5024946 - 01/18/12 02:41 PM

Greg,
Are you positive. That looks like it might be a HINO.... LOL

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clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PhotoGazer]
#5024957 - 01/18/12 02:46 PM

Quote:

Thanks Jon. I have the original tube and it looks like a Cave. Here are some pics of the original finder scope and the original focuser as well. Hopefully this will help some of the Cave gurus here some insight on whether I have a Cave.

Mike the finder is indicitave of a 1970s Cave the set screws are different but the finder looks like many Cave finders I have seen. Meade used these for a time also. Along with that focuser style.
(aveman

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greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#5025042 - 01/18/12 03:26 PM

Quote:

Greg,
Are you positive. That looks like it might be a HINO.... LOL

Good one Clint!

But wouldn't it be funny if you could link Cave to Hino? MMM... but I digress, that is another thread.

Clint, inquireing minds want to know. When you talk about the focuser style are you referring to my picture or PhotoGazer's and which one have you seen on Cave's?

Thanks

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clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#5025251 - 01/18/12 05:15 PM

I was just saying its ashame Rukes focuser company stoped making the Cave Focuser, the last Rukes I seen on one of Toms OTAs was a 1969 Cave in 1970 he started using the same one Meade later used when they Ripped off Toms Designs that Tom Ripped off from Brasher. The one on the DOB Cave, I would say it is a Cave by the looks of its end rings and finder. There seems to be more or just as many Cave OTAs/Telescopes with out lables than with lables. If the seller said it was a Cave it more than likely is.

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greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#5025722 - 01/18/12 09:26 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

Jon, I hope we are not straying to far from your original post but my thought is any Cave news is good news?

Cave undoubtedly used many types and brands of focusers. I cannot be sure but this supposedly original focuser looks very close to the Meade in my post above.

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PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#5025761 - 01/18/12 09:53 PM

No, that's fine Gregg. I think it is great to discuss any aspect of Cave in this thread.

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PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5146162 - 03/28/12 09:17 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

It has been a while since the last update so I thought I'd post a new one. Unfortunately there are only two new mirrors.

We need more! So I'm putting out the call for anyone with a Cave that has not sent me their mirror information.

Changes from the 12/26/2011 list are highlighted in yellow.

A higher resolution version is here:

Cave Mirror Registry 3/28/2012

A total of 118 mirrors are now in the registry.

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KentTolley
member

Reged: 03/26/12

Loc: California, USA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5147597 - 03/29/12 05:47 PM Attachment (21 downloads)

I don't have a picture of the mirror but I have a picture of the scope that goes with your entry #19, Cave 8" Delux. The mirror is inscribed in cursive lettering:

Cave Optical Co #M727067
F/8 64" F.L. Jan 25, 1972

I am the original owner and you can post my name in your table. Kent Tolley. I cut my teeth on this telescope. I sold it in 2004 together with a set of Galoc eyepieces (7mm, 10mm, 16.3mm, and the barlow) from Telescopics (Hollywood). It was a wonderful telescope with high contrast views. The rotating rings allow you to rotate the tube until the eyepiece is at the right height for your eyeball. I never had to stoop or stand on a chair and probably fall off. From what I've heard many in the know would send their mirrors back for refiguring so that Alika Herring would put on the figure. Many of Tom Cave's opticians were excellent but Alika Herring was a legend. The author of Jonathon Livingston Seagull worked at Cave for a spell. I ended up living within a block of Cave's store. You can drive by his house and still see his observatory. When Celestron came along with their SCT and Cave came to a long period of sickness in the mid 70's that was the beginning of the end for Cave Optical. But if today you look closely at a Parks reflector you will see basically the Cave Astrola.

Not sure how to post an image here. I'll be back.

Edited by KentTolley (03/29/12 05:57 PM)

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KentTolley
member

Reged: 03/26/12

Loc: California, USA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: KentTolley]
#5147621 - 03/29/12 05:59 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

Another picture

Edited by KentTolley (03/29/12 06:00 PM)

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albert1
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: Southern New Jersey

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: KentTolley]
#5147929 - 03/29/12 11:00 PM

Beautiful, Kent. I've never seen one with that chrome/color combination. Very sharp.

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RLTYS
Post Laureate

Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New York (Long Island)

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: KentTolley]
#5148289 - 03/30/12 06:43 AM

A very impressive scope indeed.

Rich (RLTYS)

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KentTolley
member

Reged: 03/26/12

Loc: California, USA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: RLTYS]
#5148793 - 03/30/12 01:20 PM

For your table, the new owner of that Cave 8" f/8 Delux is Ed but I don't know his last name. He lived in Palos Verdes, CA. I wonder if he comes here.

Regarding signatures on Cave mirrors I understood some mirrors were signed but most were not. You could have an Alika Herring corrected mirror and there may be no way to prove it. If your mirror was dated within a period when Alika worked for Cave (two separate stints)then it may be a Herring figure. I also understood that mirrors sent back for re-figuring were mostly re-done by Alika. So if your mirror was refigured AND the date corresponds to his time with Cave the odds are pretty high your mirror has a Herring figure. Even though not signed, all Cave mirrors were enscribed with a serial number, focal ratio, focal length and date. I also understood Tom Cave's dad did that writing.

Post Extras:

KentTolley
member

Reged: 03/26/12

Loc: California, USA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: KentTolley]
#5148833 - 03/30/12 01:52 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

Walter Haas wrote a nice obit when Alika Herring died. (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1996JALPO..40...30H)

He worked for Tom Cave twice. First beginning in the early 1950's, possibly as early as 1951 when he first came to California. He left in 1961 to work for Gerard Kuiper (namesake of the Kuiper Belt) at the U of Arizona, Lunar and Planetary Lab. It was his site observations, using his own 12.5" mirror (drool) that established Mauna Kea observatory in Hawaii. He returned to work for Cave in 1971 and worked there until he retired in 1979. He also made mirrors that were not sold by Tom Cave. So if your mirror has a date from 1951-1961 or 1971-1979 it may have Herring's figure, but especially if it was re-figured during those periods.

Below is a photo of Alika Herring testing a mirror in the back of Cave Optical. Below that is another of Cave's opticians (not Alika) working on the massive observatory mount for 12.5" and 16" scopes.

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PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

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Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: KentTolley]
#5149448 - 03/30/12 10:08 PM

Hi Kent,

Thank you for the update on M727067. I'll update it when I post the next issue. That scope looks beautiful with the polished parts. Kind of like a Custom Super Deluxe in many respects.

That would have been really cool to live near the Cave shop. I would have been in there at least once a week just to admire everything and learn what I could.

On signed mirrors, which I take to mean ones that are engraved with the opticians name in addition to some form of Cave identification, I have only seen two - the first two in the registry. If anyone has photos of any others with any person's name included in the engraving I would love to see them. I don't think I've ever seen a Cave engraved mirror that also included Alika Herring's name. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I wouldn't be ready to make the statement that all Cave mirrors are engraved. As has been noted in earlier posts in this thread, Richard Norton's history of Cave has included the statement that Cave made "more than" 53,000 mirrors and 15,600 complete scopes (Norton's August 1994 S&T article is a must read for Cave aficionados). With the range I have in the registry there are a lot of unmarked mirrors out there. Of course, being unmarked, we can't confirm Cave made them.

Also, according to Norton's article, Alika Herring left Cave in 1960 and returned in 1969.

It has been written that Tom Cave's dad did engrave all of the earlier mirrors in an Old English script, approximately the first 1000, and this would be about right as it looks like they reached serial number 1000 sometime in 1957, which is when Tom Cave Sr. passed away. These were engraved on the back of the mirror rather than the edge like later mirrors. The back engraved mirrors do appear to continue to the end of the four digit range of mirrors, into at least 1961, with several different styles of engraving.

And, Welcome to the Cloudy Nights Classic Telescope forum!

Post Extras:

KentTolley
member

Reged: 03/26/12

Loc: California, USA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5150202 - 03/31/12 01:34 PM

Thank you Jon for the warm welcome to this forum. I’ve been a stargazer since a boy and look forward to participating in this forum.
Your point is well made that there are many more Cave mirrors made than those inscribed on the side. On the other point, regarding Alika Herring’s tenure at Cave I offer the following for your consideration.
In the link in parentheses above Walter Haas writes an obituary for Alika Herring published in the Journal of the Association of Lunar and Planetary Observers, Vol 40. Mr. Haas may have his dates wrong but he writes:
“After subsequent employment as a musician and a machinist, while also making several telescope mirrors, he went to California in 1951. He met Tom Cave and worked for Cave Optical Company until 1961. There he made several thousand astronomical mirrors. There next followed a professional career at the Lunar and Planetary Laboratory of the University of Arizona at Tucson, the Director being Gerard P. Kuiper. Alika observed and photographed the Moon, along with others, culminating in the production of the excellent Consolidated Lunar Atlas in 1967.” …
“With the decline of federal support of astronomy research and space programs, Alika left the Lunar and Planetary Laboratory in 1970 and returned to Cave Optical Company, where he was employed until his retirement in 1979.”
So according to this obituary Alika worked for Cave Optical from approximately 1951 until 1961 and a second time from 1970 to 1979.
By way of credentials, Walter Haas is the founding director of the Lunar and Planetary Observers (ALPO) which publishes the journal of the Association of Lunar and Planetary Observers from which the particular Alika Herring obituary referencing the two periods of employment with Cave was published. Alika Herring worked closely with ALPO and published in their journal as well as Sky and Telescope. In the Haas obituary he says: “He preserved a remarkably cheerful spirit and was interviewed by O. Richard Norton (not the Norton of Norton’s Star Atlas) in S&T in 1995. So it is safe to say that Haas knows about the interview in S&T and its contents and yet he still gives the dates cited above for Herring’s work at Cave Optical Co. Haas spoke with Cave to collect some of the material he presents in the obituary so he undoubtedly closed the loop with Tom Cave on those dates before publishing the obituary.
So I guess there is some dispute about the dates Herring worked at Cave. See what you think after you read the obit. (see link above)

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KentTolley
member

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Loc: California, USA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: KentTolley]
#5150217 - 03/31/12 01:41 PM

The discrepancy may be only a few months.
Norton says Alika worked for Kuiper from 1960 to 1969.
Haas says Alika worked for Kuiper from 1961 to 1970.
So if he left in the latter months of 1960 and returned in the latter months of '69 we are disputing a matter of 2 or 3 months. It is important though if you are looking at the serial number on a Cave mirror and trying to determine if that was a period of Herring's tenure at Cave.

Post Extras:

KentTolley
member

Reged: 03/26/12

Loc: California, USA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: KentTolley]
#5150243 - 03/31/12 01:57 PM

I hope this is not too far off-topic but does anyone know the names of the other opticians who worked for Cave and what became of them. Did they go to Parks Optical or Meade or what?

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tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: KentTolley]
#5150267 - 03/31/12 02:11 PM

Ed Beck and his brother Bob founded Enterprise Optics (and made mirrors out of their home) after Cave went out of business in 1978/79. I don't know if Ed is still making mirrors, but I have a 12.5" f/23 Classical Cass with optics made by him that are fantastic: 12.5" Cass

They told me that Alika Herring had built the grinding machine they use. They bought it from Tom when he closed up shop.

-Tim

Edited by tim53 (03/31/12 02:13 PM)

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KentTolley
member

Reged: 03/26/12

Loc: California, USA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: tim53]
#5150279 - 03/31/12 02:21 PM

Thank you. I remember Ed Beck's name now. Do you recognize the opticians under Alika in the photo above. I remember the guy with glasses and military haircut in the lower two photos. I spoke with him at Cave's shop but it was a long time ago and I don't know his name. I think the other guy with longer hair and glasses mid-page is yet another Cave employee.

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tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: KentTolley]
#5150315 - 03/31/12 02:44 PM

I only visited Cave about 3 times. First was in 1966. I knew Ed and Bob because they were members of the Orange County Astronomers while I was in the club. I met Alika Herring at one of their meetings in the late 80s, IIRC.

When Meade started making and selling Newtonians and Diebel put Cave out of business, he hired some Cave employees: Brian Holdcroft (who just might be the guy assembling the observatory mount in that picture, but I don't think so) was a machinist, though; Ron Ezra who's retired living in Henderson, IIRC. I last saw him at RTMC last year. He wasn't an optician either, though! Art LeBrun, also not an optician. He only retired from Meade in the past several years, if I remember what Ron told me right. I think someone told me that Brian Holdcroft passed away several years ago. He's featured in many Meade ads, particularly for the Research Grade newtonians of the early 1980s.

Someone else should confirm, but I think a couple prominent opticians still working today were once Cave opticians. Hardin? I hate to guess at these, in case I get them wrong and upset someone. Many years ago, while I was in contact with Ed Beck regularly while he was making my Cass optics (that was over 20 years ago!!), he told me several names and I wrote them down somewhere. I'm not sure I could find the list, though. I should have paid more attention, but I was more interested in building scopes than in preserving classics then, than I am now.

-Tim.

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PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: tim53]
#5150577 - 03/31/12 05:52 PM Attachment (45 downloads)

I'm not sure which dates would be correct, I just wanted to mention the Norton dates for completeness. It would have been great to be part of the So. Cal. amateur telescope scene back then so that I could have some first hand knowledge of the goings on at Cave but I was stuck pursuing the hobby in cold Wisconsin (I can remember some really cold nights observing Saturn through a 3" Sears refractor).

Where's Lew? He could probably shed some light on this.

I did read the Haas obit and he may very well have the dates right. He does mention Norton's interview of Herring for the May 1995 S&T (page 81). So I just went back and read that interview. Another wonderful historical article from Mr. Norton! In this article Norton gives a specific date for Mr. Herring's departure from Cave to go to work at LPL - September 29th, 1961 so maybe he didn't know this when he wrote the Cave article in 1994. He also writes that Mr. Herring left LPL on March 1, 1970 and returned to Cave two months later, so May 1, 1970 he was back.

The article goes on to mention Mr. Herring making mirrors on the side in 1972, even advertising in S&T, but that Tom Cave didn't object to the direct competition from one of his employees. It mentions these mirrors as probably the best he made and that they were signed. He retired from Cave in 1979 "months before the company shut down".

Some other workers (opticians all?) mentioned in the 1994 Cave history article:

Richard Bach (the Jonathan Livingston Seagull author)
Bob Crawford
Ed Beck
Walt Depampalis

Of the several Caves I own this one is my pride and joy and produces incredible views. From correspondance I have between Cave and the original owner this is the actual scope on the cover of the 1970s Cave catalogs.

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tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5150618 - 03/31/12 06:24 PM

Jon:

Is that a Carle helical focuser? I have one on my 8" lightweight deluxe and am surprised at how nice it is to use - even for planetary imaging!

-Tim.

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PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: tim53]
#5150751 - 03/31/12 08:08 PM Attachment (31 downloads)

I wish it was a Carle Tim. It is helical but much more modern - Lumicon. It was a direct no-new-holes-needed swap for the original focuser so I could do AP. The shorter height and greater adjustability of the draw tube gave me much more flexibility with the webcam.

See this page of the thread on that scope for more info:

10" Cave Custom Super Deluxe page 11

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5150781 - 03/31/12 08:31 PM Attachment (34 downloads)

Jon, I wonder when they inscribed the mirrors? Before or after the coating? If after I can still dream on that mine was done by the master.

Post Extras:

greju
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/13/05

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: tim53]
#5150787 - 03/31/12 08:35 PM Attachment (28 downloads)

Quote:

Jon:

Is that a Carle helical focuser? I have one on my 8" lightweight deluxe and am surprised at how nice it is to use - even for planetary imaging!

-Tim.

I like the originals. So simple yet so functional.

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PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: greju]
#5150813 - 03/31/12 08:52 PM

Quote:

Jon, I wonder when they inscribed the mirrors? Before or after the coating? If after I can still dream on that mine was done by the master.

Good question Gregg, I've wondered that myself. On the early mirrors I'm going to say before coating and offer a story from the Norton Cave history:

"One day the secretary called Cave to the front office. Although Cave was never demanding or harsh, he returned from there red faced and obviously upset, mumbling something unrepeatable about his father. Cave Sr. ran the business affairs of Cave Optical and was essential to its early success. He also had wonderful handwriting. With a diamond pencil he scribed the Cave Optical signature on the back of each mirror, complete with focal length and mirror number. Each mirror was fine ground flat on the back, clearly distinguishing it from the front. But on that day the elder Cave had blundered; a just-completed 6-inch mirror on his desk bore the beautiful Cave Optical inscription - on the front! We never let him forget that day."

If the mirror had already been coated this couldn't have happened.

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KentTolley
member

Reged: 03/26/12

Loc: California, USA

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5150884 - 03/31/12 10:32 PM

It makes sense to inscribe the mirror at Cave before they sent it out to Pancro to be coated. That would be the only way they could keep track of the mirrors as they returned for installation.

PiSigma - that is a beautiful scope. I remember it on the cover of the catalog with Cave's daughter (I think). The shorter focal ratio keeps the moment-arm within the capability of that mount. I always wondered about the 12.5" scopes on the Astrola Delux mount. They have also put the setting circles in the best place. Better than where they are on your 10" f/7 where they put both circles so as to increase the moment-arms which increases instability of the mount and a vibratory ringing before the mount comes to rest. I always wondered about the reason for placing the setting circles where they would actually decrease the stable platform of the mount.

I see you also have the electric declination control as well as a tube counterweight for heavier eyepiece loads. That scope has it all. They must have been proud of it themselves which is why they put it on their cover. You have a treasure. It would be my pride and joy as well.

Edited by KentTolley (03/31/12 11:21 PM)

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iverp
member

Reged: 04/16/10

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5153629 - 04/02/12 05:44 PM

Jon,
I'm not sure how you want to handle this. Do as you see fit. I recently had my Cave mirror M728403 refigured, so technically I suppose it is no longer a Cave. But I wanted to let the group know.

Optical Wave Lab. (OWL) tested the original at 1/1.66 wave - less than 1/2 wave! I'm saddened that a company that once had such a fine reputation was producing such poor quality.

OWL redid the mirror, and it now tests at 1/8.67 wave with a strehl ratio of .963. I have had the scope out a few times with the redone mirror. The image quality is MUCH better. Actually stunning. So much more like what you expect of a Cave.

I wonder how many people put up with "good enough" optics when they really could be seeing so much more?

Iver P.

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PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: iverp]
#5153991 - 04/02/12 11:15 PM

Hi Iver,

That's 738403 right? I'll add a note to the Notes field.

Personally, I don't have a problem with refiguring a Cave mirror if it tests substandard and I don't feel that makes the scope any less desirable or authentic. If the scope is complete and authentic with the original engraved mirror it is still a Cave. While they produced many great mirrors over the years, with some being really exceptional, from what I've read a few duffers went out the door too. If a mirror tests poorly by a reputable optician I see no reason not to correct it without devaluing the scope.

I just recieved my 6" f/10 mirror back from OWL and it tested very very good (forgot to write the numbers down when Cary called and I'm waiting for an email from him).

I just sent an 8" Cave mirror to him to be followed by a 10". If either test poorly I will have him refigure them with no regrets.

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JWW
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 12/12/05

Loc: Arizona or Mexico hard to tell

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: KentTolley]
#5165977 - 04/10/12 10:14 PM

Quote:

Thank you. I remember Ed Beck's name now. Do you recognize the opticians under Alika in the photo above. I remember the guy with glasses and military haircut in the lower two photos. I spoke with him at Cave's shop but it was a long time ago and I don't know his name. I think the other guy with longer hair and glasses mid-page is yet another Cave employee.

To my knowledge the guy in the photo name is Parks Squyres. You may find this interesting if you haven't seen it.

http://www.pbase.com/smokedaddy/herring_cave&page=all

Also, Parks worked on this project if you care to read about it. I just spoke with him two weeks ago.

http://lunarscience.arc.nasa.gov/articles/Surveyor/

Regards,
-JWW:

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chuck52
super member

Reged: 12/03/09

Loc: Quartz Hill,California

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5248069 - 05/30/12 09:56 PM

Jon,
Here is the information off my mirror.Very light cursive writing.12.5 inch
Cave Optical Co HM 716485
F/6 75" F.L. July 20,1971

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PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: chuck52]
#5248876 - 05/31/12 01:25 PM

Thanks for the update Chuck. I've added it. I saw the picture in your other thread. I'll post an updated registry here soon. I haven't been posting it as often as when I started this list since additions are coming more slowly now.

Post Extras:

RogerRZ
Whatta you lookin' at?

Reged: 01/09/06

Loc: West Collette, NB, Canada

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5267536 - 06/12/12 05:35 AM

The 10" f/6 I once owned in presently on AM, complete with picture of mirror inscription, serial # 750223. I miss that scope...

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: RogerRZ]
#5272864 - 06/15/12 01:28 PM

Thanks for the heads-up Roger, I missed that one and will get it added.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5307340 - 07/07/12 09:06 PM Attachment (22 downloads)

I think we are due for an update.

6 new mirrors, a couple of changes in ownership and a few refigures. Changes from the 3/28/2012 edition are highlighted in yellow.

A higher resolution version is here:

Cave Mirror Registry 7/7/2012

A total of 124 mirrors are now in the registry.

Post Extras:

jgr
member

Reged: 01/26/08

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5324421 - 07/19/12 02:40 AM

I plan to take my mirror out of my 12.5 f6 soon and have it refigured and recoated. I will take some pictures of the inscription and post them soon.

Post Extras:

JohnRW
member

Reged: 09/02/12

Loc: Oakland, California

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5401201 - 09/03/12 02:43 PM

I just fixed up a 1974 Cave 8" and cleaned the mirror gently, also took some photos to document it.

Inscription:
R749627 CAVE OPTICAL CO. 50 9/16" F.L. SEPT 20, 1974

The R means it's been refigured, according to this thread. Not sure what that means; was it originally a Cave and refigured there also? Also, the FL on the mirror side is different than the FL written on the back. Again, not sure what that means. New to all this!

I'll most likely send it to OWL in a month or so for recoating and analysis.

Also, Hi, CloudyNights, first post!

Post Extras:

apfever
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: JohnRW]
#5401261 - 09/03/12 03:19 PM

John,

I sent you a private message. Click on the flashing envelope in the upper left of the screen, in the Welcome box.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: JohnRW]
#5401395 - 09/03/12 04:27 PM

Thanks for the addition John. I will add it to the next registry update.

As we speculated in your scope thread, this was probably an ATM mirror that was sent to Cave for refiguring and turned into a complete Lightweight Deluxe at the same time. The mirror looks thicker than a typical Cave 8" mirror. This is the first refigure I've seen that was used to build a complete Cave.

The F-7+ is a bit of a mystery as the focal ratio is f/6.3 and Cave used a slash in the focal ratio of all the engravings I've seen. S. STEVENS was probably the original owner and this was most likely engraved on the mirror when it first arrived at Cave so that they could keep track of it through the refiguring, recoating and assembly process.

Post Extras:

JohnRW
member

Reged: 09/02/12

Loc: Oakland, California

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5412207 - 09/09/12 07:57 PM

After poking around, I finally noticed a # on the secondary. It's a M with a circle around it, and below it reads: 112-944.

Any significance? I thought I saw an earlier reference to secondary numbers, but the search engine and my memory has failed. My father said Tom Cave worked on the secondary a bit longer than usual because my father was a month later than planned in picking it up the scope. He picked it up in person and talked to Tom for a short while, apparently. I want to believe it's something special

Let me know if the # on the secondary is anything unusual or if it's worthy of note. Aside from winning a Dust Collector award, I mean.

You folks are the Cave experts...

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: JohnRW]
#5412296 - 09/09/12 08:39 PM Attachment (28 downloads)

I wish I knew what the significance of these is. Only a few Caves have them that I've seen. I have four and only my 8" Model B Deluxe has this on its secondary hub. Mine is CM 121749.

I think I'm going to back, find the other one or two I've seen, and add this information to the registry. Maybe if we get enough of them it will become obvious what they mean.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5422725 - 09/15/12 06:15 PM Attachment (28 downloads)

We have a number of new mirrors so, time for an update.

7 new mirrors added. Changes from the 7/7/2012 edition are highlighted in yellow.

We have a second consecutive pair in M793838 and 793839.

I've added the three secondary mirror engravings that I know about to the notes field. Maybe if we get more it will become obvious what they mean.

A higher resolution version is here:

Cave Mirror Registry 9/15/2012

A total of 131 mirrors are now in the registry.

Post Extras:

RLTYS
Post Laureate

Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New York (Long Island)

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5423409 - 09/16/12 09:13 AM

Wow, the list is getting bigger and bigger.

Rich (RLTYS)

Post Extras:

clintwhitman
Caveman

Reged: 01/01/07

Loc: CALI SoEasyACavemanCanSlewIt

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: RLTYS]
#5423490 - 09/16/12 10:15 AM

Awesome Jon!! Lew Chilton Called with some interesting info I need to call him and see what he was talking about

Post Extras:

catboat
sage

Reged: 12/01/09

Loc: Maine

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5423606 - 09/16/12 11:39 AM

Jon, great work!

Looks like I should have sent the following info to you a few days earlier. Anyway, for your next update, I have a 6" f/8 mirror by Cave. March 1960. The mirror is inscribed on the back in a loopy cursive script that resembles the script on Lew Chilton's mirror.

m1631
made by Cave Optical Co.
48" focal length f/8
March 1960

The inscription is so light I haven't been able to photograph it. If you weren't looking for it, you'd be unlikely to notice it.

Edward Mitchell

Post Extras:

JohnRW
member

Reged: 09/02/12

Loc: Oakland, California

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: catboat]
#5423856 - 09/16/12 02:25 PM

Thanks for maintaining this resource, Jon. It's "The List" when it comes to Caves, as far as I can tell. I'm pleased to contribute a data point! Now if we can figure out the secondary inscriptions.... I didn't notice my inscription until I looked several times.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: clintwhitman]
#5423956 - 09/16/12 03:36 PM

Thanks Clint. Let me know what Lew says. He always has some great research and information.

I sent you a PM about another Cave history related question.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: catboat]
#5423963 - 09/16/12 03:41 PM Attachment (24 downloads)

Great addition Edward, thank you. An early one.

If you could ever post a picture that would be great. You are right about some of these early engravings, they can be very faint and hard to photograph. It took a while for me to find the engraving on my 1958 Model C. And even then I wasn't sure at first if it was #M63 or #1163. It seems photographing these in direct sunlight helps with the contrast.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: JohnRW]
#5423986 - 09/16/12 03:53 PM

You're welcome John. I really enjoy this kind of thing. Like Lew pointed out earlier, it's like Cave archeology. We've been able to deduce certain things from the list.

The secondary mirror serial numbers are one interesting aspect of all this. Only three so far and they are spread out over several years. And the one from 1970 is numerically higher than one from 1974. Like you, I didn't notice mine for quite a while. I'm sure a few have been painted over too.

One other odd thing is that big gap I've pointed out in the past from the last of the four digit serial numbers to the first of the six digit numbers. A gap of nearly four years. We have serial numbers from every year from 1952 until 1979 except 1957, 1962, 1963 and 1964. I'm a bit surprised we haven't been able to fill that gap in a little better and figure out when the switch from four to six digits occured.

Post Extras:

PiSigma
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: North Carolina

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: RLTYS]
#5423996 - 09/16/12 03:59 PM

Quote:

Wow, the list is getting bigger and bigger.

It really is Rich. The first edition I posted over 1 1/2 years ago was only 53 mirrors. Now we have 132! They don't come along as often as when I started this but we've had a little flurry of new Caves recently.

Post Extras:

John Higbee
member

Reged: 07/17/12

Loc: Virginia

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5437166 - 09/23/12 11:13 PM

Jon - just got the mirror data (with the help of my son...that mirror cell is heavy)...
Cave Optical Co
M793839
F/6 75 1/8 F.L.
Mar 27 1979

By the registry, looks like this mirror has already been entered by Bob Midiri. Picture will follow tomorrow once my son sends it off his phone.

John

Post Extras:

Ralph124c41
newbie

Reged: 09/24/12

Re: Cave Mirror Registry new

[Re: PiSigma]
#5441652 - 09/26/12 01:17 PM

I have a Cave 8” Model “B” Standard Astrola with Clock Drive
Purchased Nov. 23, 1956

On the back of the mirror, almost impossible to see (mirror was re-aluminized):

- M – 727
CAVe OPTICAL Co
56 ½ fL f/7
Nov . 1956

Note there is a dash before the M
Mix of capital and small letters as shown above