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Equipment Discussions >> Classic Telescopes

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tim53
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Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield
      #5055205 - 02/04/12 02:07 PM Attachment (137 downloads)

I've decided to slowly start restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield (with Optical Craftsmen primary and cell). I won a merit award for the scope at the 1981 RTMC.

This scope was my main scope until the mid 90s, when I acquired or built a number of others, including some goto Tak mounts I bought several years ago. But there have been things I've needed to correct on the Springfield, and I'd like to put it back into use again. So, I started with getting the mirror recoated. Original coatings lasted 40 years!


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5055206 - 02/04/12 02:08 PM Attachment (78 downloads)

The original coating looks pretty good in the above pic. The mirror was still pretty clean, as I'd cleaned it within the last several months.

However, this is what it looked like backlit!


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5055209 - 02/04/12 02:10 PM Attachment (63 downloads)

It was translucent, and had a couple spots where the coatings had come off.

Here it is now. I just got this and two other 8" mirrors back from OWL yesterday:


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5055211 - 02/04/12 02:12 PM

Here's an old pic of the scope, taken in the late 80's from our previous home in Whittier.



-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5055216 - 02/04/12 02:14 PM

And here it is, taken a couple years ago, just after I bought another Springfield mount head (on table at right), that I'll probably remount my 12.5" Cassegrain on one of these days:



-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5055219 - 02/04/12 02:17 PM

I'd taken the finders off the side of the saddle, and the 4" Meade spotting scope out of the counterweight arm (where I used to have a single right angle finder).

I've got optics from a big binocular microscope that I might use for finders, or maybe one of the many old binoculars I bought cheap at the swap meet could be sacrificed for finders. I still have the Meade 4" (mirror lens, NOT SCT), and could put it back, but it needs a lighter mount than what I had in there.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5194991 - 04/28/12 01:45 PM

I haven't forgotten my old Springfield (or the larger mount I bought off ebay a couple years back).

For the finders, I'm leaning towards using optics and parts from binocular purchases that I have made where the binocular was incomplete or damaged in some way, but I hadn't paid so much for them that I couldn't sacrifice a cheap pair I'd picked up at the swap meets I go to.

Recently, I purchased an old Mechanics Illustrated article that I found on ebay. It's from 1957, from a column they ran in the magazine called "The Amateur Telescope Maker's Page", conducted by Robert Brightman (anybody know who he is/was?). I had no idea they had such a column! (well, I was only 4 years old at the time!). Anyway, the article is entitled "A Springfield Mounting", and while it describes a rather spartan-looking mount, it's got all the right ingredients for a first-rate telescope of the day, with a clock drive, setting circles, and slow motion controls. Even better, the article describes the workings and construction in detail, and the exploded diagrams an pictures are detailed and thoroughly labeled. There's even a detailed blueprint! (though it's reduced to fit the small page format). The seller nicely sealed and protected the article for shipping.

I plan to scan it into my computer so I can put the original away. I'll probably use it mostly to help improve some of the elements of the larger mount I bought off ebay, but I may incorporate some of the ideas into my 8" (on this thread) while undertaking the restoration of that instrument.

Mechanics Illustrated is still around, of course, so I probably can't post pictures from the article here. (mods, correct me if I'm wrong, because if there is a way to show some of it here, I wouldn't mind being able to do that).

-Tim.


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Lew Chilton
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5196688 - 04/29/12 02:39 PM

Tim,

What do you know about F.M. Hicks and his connection to the Pasadena version of the Springfield mount? I recently came across some interesting bio. info. on him. I can't verify it yet, but I believe he was an early president of the L.A. Astronomical Society. (He definitely was a member and I have a picture of him in a group shot with Russell W. Porter taken around 1929.)

-Lew


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Lew Chilton]
      #5196734 - 04/29/12 03:04 PM

Hi Lew!

Not much. I do have an original blueprint of the Pasadena mount though

Tim


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Lew Chilton
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Reged: 10/20/05

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5197674 - 04/30/12 02:55 AM

Tim, check out this excerpt from Frank M. Hick's bio. He made his fortune as a railroad locomotive, passenger car and street car manufacturer in Chicago.

- Lew

FRANK M. HICKS, ASTRONOMIST OF CALIF., DIES HERE (1860-1930)
Frank M. Hicks, brother of A. M. Hicks of this city, passed away Sunday evening at St. Vincent hospital following a long illness. Mr. Hicks had lived in Pasadena, Cal., for the past 17 years, where he was well known both in social and philanthropic circles. For several years he was deeply interested in astronomy and was one of the leading amateur telescope builders of southern California. He worked out a design for a telescope mounting with a stationary eye piece which has come to be well known in amateur telecope circles throughout the United States.


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Lew Chilton]
      #5197968 - 04/30/12 10:15 AM

Interesting! So, the Pasadena version of the Springfield mount must have come from the 20s, then? Russell Porter didn't write the 2nd major article about machining the Springfield mount until 1935.

I'll have to go find that blueprint to verify, but I believe it was signed by Hicks.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5285176 - 06/23/12 12:06 PM Attachment (42 downloads)

Hi Lew:

I was just looking over the blueprint for the Pasadena mount, to see if I could find a date. There doesn't seem to be one on the blueprint.

Here's the credits, though. If you're interested, I scanned the blueprint and assembled it in Canvas then saved it as a jpeg. It's still pretty big (about 8 megs), but if you're interested, I could email it to you as an attachment:


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5285192 - 06/23/12 12:14 PM

Hicks' house is still there, and it's less than 5 miles from me.

-Tim


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amicus sidera
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5287213 - 06/24/12 06:36 PM

Quote:

The original coating looks pretty good in the above pic. The mirror was still pretty clean, as I'd cleaned it within the last several months.

However, this is what it looked like backlit!




Firstly, beautiful telescope, Tim! I can easily see why it won that award.

Regarding that mirror: I've seen new coatings that looked like that, with sufficient backlighting! The original aluminizing job must have been pretty good, indeed. The 30-year-plus coatings on my Edmund mirrors are still opaque, except for a few pinholes, so I don't plan on realuminizing any time soon.

One question: what are the three half-round areas on the refinished mirror - reflections, or unaluminized areas?


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5287255 - 06/24/12 07:09 PM

Those are clip shadows from when OWL recoated the mirror. I wasn't too worried about them, because my cell has clips that I'll just put in line with the shadows.

I had my 8" f/9 mirror coated at L&L, though, and it has no clip shadows. Cost about 3 or 4 times as much for that coating as OWL's current discount. I plan to make that a planet killer without clips over the face of the mirror.

-Tim.


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amicus sidera
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5287279 - 06/24/12 07:22 PM

Thanks for that info, Tim; fwiw, out of all the mirrors that I've had coated, either for myself or other observers' mirrors that I handled for them, I never had one come back with unaluminized areas due to clips used during the process. Used primarily EVM out of Ithaca, some others. No slam on your newly-coated mirror, but it's hard to understand why a coater would do this, except to make life easier for themselves.

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Bill Griffith
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5287805 - 06/25/12 02:41 AM

I certainly agree it makes life easier for a coating house and this is also in the best interest of the customer (my opinion). Gravity is not your friend in this instance.

Vacuum deposition take place with an emission source stationed below the parts being coated.
Depending on the size of the vacuum chamber several mirrors can be coated at the same time. A planetary system is often used. Each part rotates on axis while rotation on a central axis is conducted. To minimize shadowing of all these spinning parts clips are utilized.

This keeps the cost down to do one run and coat several.

If a customer has a requirement of a no non coated surface, certainly that can be provided.

The other benefit much like in a mirror cell is; this reduces stress by not clamping the part tightly on the sides or being placed in a housing.

Some application such as AR coatings(MgF2)takes place at pretty high chamber temps. you want to allow for CTE.

Or, we're just lazy!

I should mention that these statements are not implied as to why other coating houses use clips. I'm not employed at O.W.L..

Bill




Edited by Bill Griffith (06/25/12 04:34 AM)


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Jim Curry
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Bill Griffith]
      #5288007 - 06/25/12 08:26 AM

Tim:

The Pasadena (Springfield) mount has always intrigued me. Looking at your Whittier photo, what is that object bolted on the wood counterweight arm just "above" the handle? Also, in the restored photo I see what looks to be another set of focuser knobs above the focuser, what are they for?

THanks.,
Jim


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Jim Curry]
      #5288122 - 06/25/12 09:51 AM

Hi Jim:

The thing in the counterweight arm between the OTA and the "Armstrong slewing motor = handle" is a Meade 4" Mirror Lens spotting scope that I used a few times as a guide scope. When I first built the telescope, I had the finderscope there.
.
But I didn't like using right angle finders in those days, so by the late 80's I'd switched to using two straight-through finders on either side of the tube.

There are a number of knobs in that picture. Some I made out of teak and threaded rod. These are used mostly in place of the small set screws in the focuser and for clamping the guidescope bracket's adjustments. The two aluminum knobs are on the tangent arm and are for manual slow motion.

The focuser has a funny history. We used it as a jig at Meade to drill the holes in tubes for placement of the 2" #680 focusers on the OTAs. The holes were rather chewed up from running a drill bit through them hundreds of times. I got it for nothing when we went to a better designed jig for that purpose. Since the Springfield has a flat base where the focuser lives, I had a friend with a lathe (I didn't have my own at the time) cut the base off the Meade focuser and machine a step that we pressed a new base on that insures that everything is concentric with the hollow dec axis. This is needed to maintain collimation, since the tube rotates around the dec axis but the focuser doesn't.
I kept losing that tiny set screw in the eyepiece hole, so I drilled the hole out and tapped it for 10-24 threads and put one of my teak knobs in there.
There's also a teak knob on the clamping screw for the Dec tangent arm.

-Tim.


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amicus sidera
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Bill Griffith]
      #5288720 - 06/25/12 04:27 PM

Quote:

I certainly agree it makes life easier for a coating house and this is also in the best interest of the customer (my opinion). Gravity is not your friend in this instance.

Vacuum deposition take place with an emission source stationed below the parts being coated.
Depending on the size of the vacuum chamber several mirrors can be coated at the same time. A planetary system is often used. Each part rotates on axis while rotation on a central axis is conducted. To minimize shadowing of all these spinning parts clips are utilized.

This keeps the cost down to do one run and coat several.

If a customer has a requirement of a no non coated surface, certainly that can be provided.

The other benefit much like in a mirror cell is; this reduces stress by not clamping the part tightly on the sides or being placed in a housing.

Some application such as AR coatings(MgF2)takes place at pretty high chamber temps. you want to allow for CTE.

Or, we're just lazy!

I should mention that these statements are not implied as to why other coating houses use clips. I'm not employed at O.W.L..

Bill







Thanks much for that excellent explanation, Bill!

Until recently, I had never seen a mirror that had been aluminized while held by clips on its face. I'm sure that it's easier for the coater, and just as certain that today many folks wouldn't mind, as their mirror cell's clips would hide the bare areas.

Funny, though, that those firms that coated all those old Upco, Edmund, Cave, etc. mirrors, never used clips, at least to my knowledge. Write me off as an oldtimer, but I believe that back then using clips, and leaving areas unaluminized, would have been deemed unacceptable by the vast majority of amateurs... and still is, in some quarters (ahem).


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amicus sidera
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5288725 - 06/25/12 04:30 PM

Quote:

Tim wrote:

(snip)There are a number of knobs in that picture. Some I made out of teak and threaded rod.(snip)




Are the main tube and mount of that Springfield also made out of teak, Tim?


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5288734 - 06/25/12 04:36 PM

The tube is made out of Indian Rosewood plywood, which is basically a mahogany plywood with a 1/64" veneer of Rosewood on one side. I haven't seen this stuff available since I bout that sheet in about 1980. It's faded considerably, unfortunately.

The tripod is red oak, and the mount is aluminum 1/2" plate.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5291012 - 06/27/12 01:49 AM Attachment (21 downloads)

Okay, so a friend posted on facebook that the ISS was going overhead this evening, so my son and I went out and gandered it. Then I got inspired to get the Springfield out, collimate it, and see how it stacks up against the other two Optical Craftsmen mirrors I have.

2 nights ago, it was a shootout between the 8" Connoisseur and the 8" Discoverer OTA, so the seeing was similar for those two. Tonight, the seeing was a bit worse, a 3/10 instead of 4/10 for the other night. Still, I think the image is decent, if not as good as the view through the Connoisseur.

Connoisseur:


Discoverer:


Springfield (mirror from another Discoverer):

Edited by tim53 (06/27/12 01:52 AM)


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5291016 - 06/27/12 01:55 AM

So, I'm figuring 2 outa 3 ain't bad...

...well, actually 2 out of 3 are actually pretty good, with the Connoisseur being a tad better than the Springfield, even though the seeing was a factor tonight, I bet the two in a shootout would still wind up with the Connoisseur on top.

The other mirror is a 2rd. It's just that simple. I'm going to put that OTA in the back of my shop, and next time I get a chance to attend the Delmarva mirror class, I'm going to bring it along and give it a new figure!

-Tim.


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Fred Ley
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Reged: 07/27/09

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5291132 - 06/27/12 06:03 AM Attachment (28 downloads)

Hello Tim,

Here is an image of your telescope from the 1984 RTMC. Taken with Kodachrome 64 slide film.

Fred


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Fred Ley
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Reged: 07/27/09

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Fred Ley]
      #5291138 - 06/27/12 06:21 AM Attachment (20 downloads)

Another view of your Springfield mounting. Taken at the 1992 RTMC, Kodachrome 64.

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Fred Ley
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Reged: 07/27/09

Loc: Lancaster,CA(Athens,GR)
Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Fred Ley]
      #5291140 - 06/27/12 06:28 AM Attachment (28 downloads)

I also have three additional Kodachrome 64 slides of your telescope from the 2001 RTMC.

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Fred Ley
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Reged: 07/27/09

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Fred Ley]
      #5291142 - 06/27/12 06:29 AM Attachment (21 downloads)

...here is No. 2 from 2001...

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Fred Ley
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Fred Ley]
      #5291145 - 06/27/12 06:30 AM Attachment (22 downloads)

...and the final slide from 2001 RTMC.

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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Fred Ley]
      #5291283 - 06/27/12 09:43 AM

Hi Fred:

Thanks for posting these! It's cool seeing early pics of the 8". The Rosewood has faded so much over time. I've been hoping to strip the varathane finish off and restain it (mixing my own stain to match a scrap of the original sheet that I still have that's been out of the sun all this time), but Terry says that Varathane needs to sanded off, it can't be stripped.

Thanks very much for posting the pics of my 12.5" f/23 Cassegrain when I had it mounted on the Springfield mount. For some reason, I don't have any pics of it in that configuration. I had it like that for about a year, IIRC, but I decided it needed a beefier mount, so I took it off the Springfield mount and turned it back into a Straight through Cass ( Cass thread ).

Now that I have the larger Springfield mount I bought off feebay a couple years back, I'd been cogitating about putting the Cass on that mount. But there's a problem with that idea that you can see from the photos you posted: The mirror is a thin one (1 1/8", IIRC), so the mirror end of the OTA was light enough that I needed to counterbalance the tube in dec by adding the weights behind the primary, which necessitated adding extra counterweights to the "beavertail". I think I had something like 85 pounds of weights combined. The mount held it, but it didn't like it much! The EM-500 I use for that scope nowadays doesn't break a sweat holding it off the ground!

That bigger Springfield mount could probably handle it fine as well (11" bearings as opposed to 6"), but it might also be comfy with a 14 or 16" on it. Hm... Old Springfield Mount thread

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5291310 - 06/27/12 10:01 AM

I'd like to configure the counterweight for the larger Springfield mount similar to the one in this 1936 Stellafane photo (must be about a 12.5" Cassegrain), with the weight on the south side of the pier and out of the way of the observer. 1936 Stellafane photo of Cassegrain on Springfield mount . Mount detail . Looking at it in a bit more detail, that actually looks like it's based on the Pasadena mount, F.M. Hicks' modification of the Springfield - which must have predated the ATM II article by Porter where he redesigned the Springfield (in 1935), since Hicks passed away in 1930.

-Tim.

Edited by tim53 (06/27/12 10:10 AM)


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5291314 - 06/27/12 10:04 AM

Fred:

I realized while looking at the pics of the Cass on the Springfield mount, that I must have "only" had about 60 pounds of counterweights on the mount. I've still got those weights, and use them occasionally to flatten warped furniture tops and such. For barbel weights, they're reasonably attractive, and may just turn up on one of my mounts again someday!

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5292623 - 06/28/12 01:41 AM Attachment (21 downloads)

I figure I'm on a roll here!

So, tonight it was the Cave 8" f/7 Lightweight Deluxe. Same settings as with the other scopes, though I just used the shorty barlow this time, as it's got a nice sharp step where it goes into the focuser, and since the Cave has a Carle helical focuser it's easiest to focus by loosening the set screw and holding the camera while rotating the focuser. Easier and works better than it sounds, too.

Anyway, the seeing was better tonight than the previous few, which accounts for some of this, but I think I might have to rate this scope's optics a microtad better than the Connoisseur. What do you think?


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5292629 - 06/28/12 01:44 AM

I've got two more 8" telescopes to compare! Tinky (tricolor Orange tube C-8 # 135) and the 1975 sand-cast forked C-8.

Then, I have my own 8" f/9 mirror that I started in 1973 and finished last year in Delaware, that I'm making a tube for (if I don't get frustrated and start over again for the second weekend!).

Which one of the C-8's should I try tomorrow night after work?

-Tim.


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iceblaze
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5292690 - 06/28/12 03:07 AM

Absolutely killer pic of Saturn Tim!!

-James


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tecmage
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: iceblaze]
      #5292856 - 06/28/12 08:52 AM

Outstanding pic Tim.

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Fred Ley
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tecmage]
      #5293454 - 06/28/12 03:21 PM

Very nice image of Saturn. By any chance is that of its moons above the planet?

I believe that we have spoken, at least once, at RTMC. I have always enjoyed looking at your Springfield. One day I hope to be able to take a look through it.

Glad that you enjoyed the photographs.

Fred


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Fred Ley]
      #5293523 - 06/28/12 04:12 PM

Hi Fred:

Yes! There were others as well, but they're all pretty deep in the noise on the 8-bit jpeg. I should look at the original 16-bit file and see if I can do a separate stretch on them and make a composite that shows all of them. Last night, I only had an hour before I had to pack everything up and stare at my eyelids overnight. Today, all kinds of exciting things to do at work - 38 days until landing!

-Tim.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5994695 - 07/28/13 12:48 PM

I decided to bump this thread up, since I think Lew's talked me into bringing the 8" up to CSPAMP VI next weekend!

So, I've got to put a guidescope and or finder back on the thing!

Maybe a 3" f/6 Jaegers with luan mahogany tube?



-Tim.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #5995094 - 07/28/13 04:36 PM

Quote:

I decided to bump this thread up, since I think Lew's talked me into bringing the 8" up to CSPAMP VI next weekend!

So, I've got to put a guidescope and or finder back on the thing!

Maybe a 3" f/6 Jaegers with luan mahogany tube?



-Tim.




That's nice! Right now I'm gearing up to do a 14" tube in teak, for a 12" mirror I picked-up earlier this year.

Is it veneer, or solid wood?


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #5995162 - 07/28/13 05:15 PM

It's solid:









I still need to get some nice brass screws to attach the end rings more neatly to the wooden tube, and drill and tap holes to secure the Jaegers focuser. The focuser is a bit rough, too. Not sure if it's adjustable, though.

Since I ended up painting the fence today, I only have a few hours to work on the Springfield, so I might just leave the guidescope and finders at home and sight along the tube corners to find things next weekend. I'll see what I can accomplish this evening, though.

It'll definitely be a "before" experience, though!

-Tim.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6016803 - 08/09/13 11:20 PM

At the Julian starfest tonight. The weather is to DIE for!!

Tim


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6017733 - 08/10/13 02:41 PM Attachment (17 downloads)

Here I am, set up.

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6017740 - 08/10/13 02:45 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Too. I borrowed the chair, since I managed to forget to put the one I used at pinos back in the van.

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6040659 - 08/22/13 07:04 PM

Okay, so help me remember...

In the early 80s at RTMC, there was a guy there who was trying to sell a small newtonian - like a 3", that had a fixed eyepiece. I took one of his flyers home with me, but I haven't seen it in years so don't know whether I might have lost it.

It was interesting in that the OTA doubled as the polar axis, with the primary at the bottom, with a couple flats near the eyepiece feeding light to it. The first was outside the OTA and could be rotated in Dec. The second was on-axis and had a hole in it for the light cone to go through, and the eyepiece was at the north end of the OTA. It was very nice and compact, and sat on a table top, IIRC.

Anybody remember this scope?

-Tim.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6040751 - 08/22/13 08:35 PM

Closest thing I remember to what you describe is the Porter telescope that showed up at the '74 RTMC. Last I saw of that it's now in the Hartness House museum, but obviously that's not what this guy had.

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6041657 - 08/23/13 11:02 AM

Quote:

In the early 80s at RTMC, there was a guy there who was trying to sell a small newtonian - like a 3", that had a fixed eyepiece. I took one of his flyers home with me, but I haven't seen it in years so don't know whether I might have lost it.

It was interesting in that the OTA doubled as the polar axis, with the primary at the bottom, with a couple flats near the eyepiece feeding light to it. The first was outside the OTA and could be rotated in Dec. The second was on-axis and had a hole in it for the light cone to go through, and the eyepiece was at the north end of the OTA. It was very nice and compact, and sat on a table top, IIRC.

Anybody remember this scope?

-Tim.




Are you thinking of the Fundyscope? That OTA was horizontal though. You're describing kind of a funky Fundy-Gerrish hybrid.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6041974 - 08/23/13 02:28 PM

Don't know if I've seen a Fundyscope. This is more like porters design with a big diagonal flat with a hole, but that wasn't fixed eyepiece. So the one I remember must have had two flats.

Tim


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6042024 - 08/23/13 03:00 PM

The Fundyscope was published in S&T in the early '90's, about ten years after your RTMC sighting. I'm thinking '91, '92 maybe, I was just looking at it a few weeks ago. But I recall it as having a horizontal OTA. A tilting flat on a polar axis reflected horizontally to a standard Newtonian primary, which reflected it back through a hole in the flat, to a stationary eyepiece. Didn't look too practical to me, a regular Newt of similar size on a GEM seems much easier to setup and deal with, and a stationary, perfectly horizontal eyepiece has to be at exactly the right height to not be a pain in the neck.

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6042062 - 08/23/13 03:26 PM

These days, of course, if one wants to image only, its easy to put a camera at the prime focus of a large parabola and not worry about focusers, viewing positions, or even eyepieces.

But there are times when I just like to have a look, and the Springfield mount still keeps that a comfy experience.

Tim


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6042075 - 08/23/13 03:34 PM

Quote:

The Fundyscope was published in S&T in the early '90's, about ten years after your RTMC sighting. I'm thinking '91, '92 maybe, I was just looking at it a few weeks ago. But I recall it as having a horizontal OTA. A tilting flat on a polar axis reflected horizontally to a standard Newtonian primary, which reflected it back through a hole in the flat, to a stationary eyepiece. Didn't look too practical to me, a regular Newt of similar size on a GEM seems much easier to setup and deal with, and a stationary, perfectly horizontal eyepiece has to be at exactly the right height to not be a pain in the neck.




You know? That might have been it. Or something similar. Biggest drawback is that the flat would have to have a minor axis as big as the primary. But the tilting single flat would only have to pivot less than 45 degrees either side of the celestial equator. Since the ota would double as the polar axis, the scope could be pretty light and compact. That's what I remember about the one I saw.

I'll have to dig up my digital copies of s&t and look up the Fundyscope.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6042139 - 08/23/13 04:12 PM

Quote:

Closest thing I remember to what you describe is the Porter telescope that showed up at the '74 RTMC. Last I saw of that it's now in the Hartness House museum, but obviously that's not what this guy had.




You mean the Simpson (and Porter, allegedly) 12" Springfield? I donated that scope to Stellafane's Hartness House museum in 2007.



-tim.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6042162 - 08/23/13 04:25 PM

Tim,
I think Jeff is referring to the Porter Polar Cassegrain which is on the left side of your picture sitting on the yellow stand. Here is a link to a better picture of it http://chesmontastro.org/node/7356
- Dave


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #6042175 - 08/23/13 04:33 PM

Hi Dave:

Oh, OK! I had forgotten about that one. When I was there in '07, I never did get a look through the polar cassegrain on the back wall of the clubhouse. Wanted to, though.

Very cool.

-Tim.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6042177 - 08/23/13 04:34 PM

Also, been meaning to ask you. Is the guy who was making Springfield castings still offering to? I wouldn't mind building one to Porter's original specs someday, just to say I did!

-Tim.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6042374 - 08/23/13 07:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'll have to dig up my digital copies of s&t and look up the Fundyscope.




August 1992, page 212.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6042390 - 08/23/13 07:57 PM

Quote:

Hi Dave:

Oh, OK! I had forgotten about that one. When I was there in '07, I never did get a look through the polar cassegrain on the back wall of the clubhouse. Wanted to, though.

Very cool.

-Tim.




Yup, that's it!
As a 17 yr old kid, I got such a thrill looking through that scope knowing that it was one of many telescopes built by Porter. Didn't take much to get me excited back then, but I felt honored having had the opportunity to do so.

Not to stray off the subject, but about 12 years after that I salvaged/saved a large number wooden patterns that were being stored in the Caltech machine shop, many of them from the 4" sight survey scope that Porter had designed. I was told at the time that if no rescued them, they were in serious danger of being used in a bonfire at someones beach party. I have no idea if Porter actually had a hand in the fabrication of any of those patterns, but I wound up taking home as many of the patterns I could fit in the trunk and back seat of my '73 Datsun 510. From there they proceeded to sit around in my office for at least another 15 years, and forgive me if I'm not recalling his name correctly, I passed them on to John Briggs who I assume donated them to the Hartness House where it appears they are today. I was extremely pleased when I saw those photos of what I assume to be those very patterns.
Hal Petrie, who was Palomar Observatory's chief engineer at the time, was kind enough to make copies of the original design drawings that went along with the survey scope. If anyone feels ambitious, I still have those.
Also have a few patterns for the 8" F/1 Schmidt Porter designed, but nothing I believe to be useful.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6042412 - 08/23/13 08:14 PM

This reminds me of a late friend of mine who I met when I went back to work for Meade in fall 1981 after I'd been laid off the MX Missile program. His name was Dale Chesnut. He was a retired optician, mostly made eyeglasses in his later years before coming to Meade to work as a machinist. They didn't really treat him well, IIRC. He was starting to have vision problems and wasn't fast enough. But the kindest man you'd ever meet.

He did the machine work on my Springfield when I rebuilt the mount in the mid 80s, using an old Logan 11" flat belt change gear lathe he had.

Anyway, he told me about working in the optical shop at Caltech in the 40s. He knew Porter's wife, who worked at the local post office. And he met Porter a couple times, but didn't get a chance to talk to him. One meeting he described was kind of funny. He was in the optical shop, and Porter came through to see the facilities. All the opticians looked on in horror as he walked into their clean room with a lit cigar.

I think I would have liked Porter. I sure like his innovative designs.

Does anybody know the fate of the Springfield from ATM II designed by Porter and built by Ferson in 1935? I can't believe there aren't any pics online of it.

-Tim.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6042496 - 08/23/13 09:16 PM

Dale Chestnut?!?!?!?! That name seems so very familiar to me, but I can't recall why.

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6042538 - 08/23/13 09:39 PM

Quote:



The focuser is a bit rough, too. Not sure if it's adjustable, though.






I have one of those focusers. I parted-out a vintage 50mm Astro-Physics guidescope that used it. It's definitely a Jaegers; the objective cell was clearly also a Jaegers. The only adjustment I've found possible is pressing the focuser knobs tightly together before tightening the setscrews. Either Roland or the original owner also installed a pair of nylon setscrews for the drawtube.

The nice thing about it is that the knobs can easily be replaced with custom knobs made from something like brass or wood. Hint...hint...


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6042581 - 08/23/13 10:02 PM

Quote:

Dale Chestnut?!?!?!?! That name seems so very familiar to me, but I can't recall why.




He seemed to know Max Bray pretty well, too. And there was a GEM he and a friend designed that he had a 4" achromat OTA on (that he made the optics for himself). Had very porteresque conical axes.

But it really was spelled "chesnut" with only the one "t".

-Tim.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6045856 - 08/25/13 08:06 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

Quote:

Okay, so help me remember...

In the early 80s at RTMC, there was a guy there who was trying to sell a small newtonian - like a 3", that had a fixed eyepiece. I took one of his flyers home with me, but I haven't seen it in years so don't know whether I might have lost it.

It was interesting in that the OTA doubled as the polar axis, with the primary at the bottom, with a couple flats near the eyepiece feeding light to it. The first was outside the OTA and could be rotated in Dec. The second was on-axis and had a hole in it for the light cone to go through, and the eyepiece was at the north end of the OTA. It was very nice and compact, and sat on a table top, IIRC.

Anybody remember this scope?

-Tim.




Hi Tim,
I found your mystery scope in Telescope Making #20 from 1983. It was made Edward Pasko of Santa Maria CA. Here is a picture of the page. Holding the page open is one of the original slits from the Hale spectrohelioscope I'm restoring to be installed at Stellafane and an ash tray copy of the Palomar 200" mirror sold at Corning.

- Dave


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #6045916 - 08/25/13 08:38 PM

I think that's the one!

I used to have all the issues of TM until all my magazines were burned in our attic fire in 2001.

-Tim.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6045990 - 08/25/13 09:11 PM

He patented it:

Ed Pasko's stationary eyepiece telescope

-Tim.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #6046176 - 08/25/13 11:21 PM

Quote:

Holding the page open is one of the original slits from the Hale spectrohelioscope I'm restoring to be installed at Stellafane and an ash tray copy of the Palomar 200" mirror sold at Corning.

- Dave




Wow Dave, that's only the second one of those 200-inch ashtray replicas I've ever seen. Here's mine:



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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6046267 - 08/26/13 12:32 AM

Quote:

He patented it:

Ed Pasko's stationary eyepiece telescope

-Tim.




It's just a Fundyscope with the optical axis aligned with the polar axis, and a Coude' mirror feeding it.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6046275 - 08/26/13 12:46 AM

Yep.

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6046559 - 08/26/13 08:52 AM

Tim,

Thanks for bringing your 1981 Merit Award RTMC Springfield to the dance at JSF!

Many amateurs considered veterans have never had a chance to look through an instrument of this design. Hence the lines were pretty long for a view!

The sky quality and Perseid's will be a night to remember for a long long time!

You were instrumental in many ways to another successful "Woodstock for Astronomy Geeks" gathering.

Thanks!!!

Bill


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6046977 - 08/26/13 01:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Holding the page open is..... an ash tray copy of the Palomar 200" mirror sold at Corning.

- Dave




Wow Dave, that's only the second one of those 200-inch ashtray replicas I've ever seen. Here's mine:





I so badly want one of those.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6047230 - 08/26/13 03:44 PM

one of those ashtray's on ebay right now

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: mustgobigger]
      #6047497 - 08/26/13 06:33 PM

How many people, I wonder, have been tempted to grind one into an actual mirror? They are probably not strain-free, but still, it would be darn cool.

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6047544 - 08/26/13 07:13 PM

There are no telling how many of those are still floating around. Is it inscribed with anything to tell what it is or is it only those of us who recognize the patter that know what it is I wonder.

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: dgreyson]
      #6047600 - 08/26/13 07:56 PM

Quote:

There are no telling how many of those are still floating around. Is it inscribed with anything to tell what it is or is it only those of us who recognize the patter that know what it is I wonder.




Molded around the circumference on the top side, it reads:

CORNING GLASS WORKS. REPLICA 200 INCH PYREX TELESCOPE DISC.

And it does appear to be genuine Pyrex.

I've seen pictures of the original box. I believe that they could be purchased as a set, to be used as coasters or ashtrays, or individually. The diameter is 3-5/16".


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: mustgobigger]
      #6048510 - 08/27/13 10:08 AM

Brian,
Thanks so much for the heads up, but it's getting a little to rich for my blood. Looks like word got out. Currently $50 as of this posting and still 5 days to go.

Thanks again, Jeff


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6049017 - 08/27/13 02:52 PM

Fifty bucks??? What, does it include one of Russell Porter's cigar butts or something?

I took a 20-year accumulation of ATM-related aluminum scrap to the recycler's this morning. $235, including one bag of crushed cans. While there I noticed somebody had brought in a Celestron 50mm refractor OTA. I asked them if they were going to just throw-out the lens and plastic cell, could I have it? They said "go for it". So I took out the three screws holding it onto the tube and brought it home. The objective is in perfect shape, glad to have saved it from the landfill. For some reason, we don't recycle glass here.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6049070 - 08/27/13 03:16 PM

Quote:

Fifty bucks??? What, does it include one of Russell Porter's cigar butts or something?






Hey, I'd pay fifty bucks for that cigar butt,.... with a certificate of authenticity of course.
Any residual spittle could be used to clone a new RWP, all in the interest of advancing the science and hobby of telescope making.

Edited by Jeff Phinney (08/27/13 03:18 PM)


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6049406 - 08/27/13 06:21 PM

Shame you missed out. How does one bid $50.06 anyway?

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: fjs]
      #6049487 - 08/27/13 07:20 PM

I'll assume that there are plenty of folks out there that wanted it more than I did. I think we'd be surprised at how many folks saw the discussion that David stared regarding the ashtrays, probably starting a small feeding frenzy.
Be interesting to see what it finally goes at.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6049662 - 08/27/13 08:52 PM

The problem is, I dont smoke, or I could talk myself into bidding for it.

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: dgreyson]
      #6049671 - 08/27/13 09:02 PM

Quote:

The problem is, I dont smoke, or I could talk myself into bidding for it.




It would be HERESY to actually use it as an ashtray!



Use it as a coaster.


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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: fjs]
      #6049755 - 08/27/13 10:00 PM

Mine sits on display, next to my copy of Glass Giant of Palomar, signed by the author, David Woodbury.

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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6050422 - 08/28/13 10:45 AM

Holy cow, the one on eBay is nearing sixty bucks! I paid ten for mine, about thirteen years ago.

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Ken Launie
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6050567 - 08/28/13 12:03 PM

I'm surprised the 200-inch Palomar ashtray sold for so much, though I didn't look at the listing to see if there was anything special or unusual about that one in particular. Actually they are surprisingly common, once you look for them specifically. They were originally available at the 1939 Worlds Fair, and were marked a little differently than the ones sold for decades at the Corning Museum. I had to contend with Worlds Fair ephemera collectors when I bought one of the original ones in its' Worlds Fair box on eBay years ago. After that I found a couple later ones which I purchased pretty cheaply, and I learned from the seller that she had more, most of a case of them, which she sold to me. I brought them to Stellafane and sold perhaps 20 of them for $5 or $10 each at the swap tables, making a lot of people pretty happy. They were in yellow boxes wrapped in gold foil. They're proudly made of Pyrex, and making a mirror from one has long been on my "to do" list (though THAT list is long enough that I'd need to be retired before I'm likely to get to it). If someone gets to that before me I'd love to hear how it worked out!

--Ken


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Chuck Hards
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Ken Launie]
      #6050638 - 08/28/13 12:46 PM

It would have to be a pretty shallow curve, Ken, there's not much glass between the top face and the apex of the hollow on the back. But it would be pretty darn neat to try. I'd need a second one to do it, but no way am I paying sixty bucks.

Edit: Looks like there's a bit more than 3/16" of glass there, maybe 1/4", so that should be plenty thick after curve generation, for a disc this small.

Edited by Chuck Hards (08/28/13 01:03 PM)


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Chuck Hards
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6055243 - 08/30/13 10:35 PM

$61 and two days to go! I had no idea I owned such a valuable 3-inch piece of Pyrex!

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Chuck Hards
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: fjs]
      #6058361 - 09/01/13 09:47 PM

Well, it went for sixty-one bucks plus shipping.

Jeff, did you up your bid and win it, by any chance?

There's currently another one, 2 bids so-far. Bid up to thirteen bucks and change, with 5 days to go.

I remember when I got mine, it had been used as an ashtray. I had to soak it in ammonia for hours, then scrub the living hell out of it with a nylon brush. But it cleaned-up nicely, no chips or flaws.

Funny how none of the current ones list the correct dimensions.


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Jeff Phinney
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6059025 - 09/02/13 11:04 AM

Quote:

Well, it went for sixty-one bucks plus shipping.

Jeff, did you up your bid and win it, by any chance?






I did. I'm the one who put in the 60$ bid, but that was as high as I wanted to go at that time. Started to regret it after second guessing it. Happy when I saw I was outbid. Need to think about this some more instead of simply jumping into the auction without thought, but I'll never learn.....


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Jeff Phinney
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6059048 - 09/02/13 11:21 AM

I hadn't noticed until now, but we've hijacked Tim's thread. Sorry Tim.

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Chuck Hards
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6059086 - 09/02/13 11:43 AM

Quote:

I hadn't noticed until now, but we've hijacked Tim's thread. Sorry Tim.




You're right! Back to the Springfield. Sorry Tim, my fault.


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DAVIDG
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6059212 - 09/02/13 12:52 PM Attachment (8 downloads)

To get this thread somewehat back on track, here is a picture of the casting I purchased from Jack Heinzman that were made from the original Porter patterns that Porter used to make the first Springfield telescope mount. Jack and I are members of the Springfield Telescope Makers and Jack has made a beautiful reproduction of Porter's original 6" f/8 Springfield telescope. The club own's Porters original and it is usually setup at Stellafane each year. Jack also provided me with a copy of Porter's blue print on how to make the scope and also copies of Jack's blueprints on how he machined the parts. Jack told me that this was his last set of casting. So it's on my bucket list to machine these casting and erect the scope in my backyard.

- Dave


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Chuck Hards
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #6059226 - 09/02/13 01:00 PM

I'd love to make new patterns if the originals are lost. Aluminum?

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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6059250 - 09/02/13 01:13 PM

I was hoping you were going to say that Jack would consider making more castings. I've wanted to make one myself.

I have an "original" blueprint for the original Porter Springfield as well as the blueprint for the Pasadena mount, signed by F M Hicks.

-Tim.


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6059266 - 09/02/13 01:20 PM

It's actually clear today in Milford, though it's supposed to be partly cloudy tonight. I did bring the FC-76 and the Epsilon 130 and the EM-1 mount, plus a couple camera ball mounts I bought at JSF last month and a few cameras.

So i'm going to try to fiddle tonight. Maybe some tomorrow night as well, but I have to drive back to LA on Wednesday, so I can't stay up late.

-Tim.


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Chuck Hards
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6059281 - 09/02/13 01:27 PM

Good luck. It's been completely overcast up here since Saturday morning. Friday night was our last clear night. I got a little rain early this morning.

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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6059285 - 09/02/13 01:29 PM

We got caught in a couple serious cloudbursts on the way out Saturday. It rained so hard through the Virgin River Gorge that we couldn't go more than about 45mph. Rained most of the night in Milford, and was cloudy all day yesterday. Was starting to clear up around 10pm last night, but I was tired from working on the shed, so I slept.

-Tim.


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DAVIDG
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6059311 - 09/02/13 01:42 PM

Quote:

I'd love to make new patterns if the originals are lost. Aluminum?



The originals patterns are in the Springfield Telescope Maker's muesum at the Hartness House. I'm starting to play around with hard and soft urethane castings to reproduce a Schmoyer Sundial so once I get the technic down I could make positives reproductions of my castings that could be used as patterns.
Yes mine are made of aluminum.

- Dave


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Chuck Hards
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #6059360 - 09/02/13 02:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'd love to make new patterns if the originals are lost. Aluminum?



The originals patterns are in the Springfield Telescope Maker's muesum at the Hartness House. I'm starting to play around with hard and soft urethane castings to reproduce a Schmoyer Sundial so once I get the technic down I could make positives reproductions of my castings that could be used as patterns.
Yes mine are made of aluminum.

- Dave




Im sure you know that the patterns will need to be oversized by 3/16" per foot for accurate castings, if aluminum is used. I wouldn't use a direct copy of a casting for a historical reproduction, it will result in an undersized casting. Better to copy the actual patterns. I'd be interested to know if Porter's drawings took the shrink factor into account.


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DAVIDG
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6059414 - 09/02/13 02:29 PM

Hi Chuck,
Yes I'm aware of the shrinking of the casting from cooling but getting hold of the original patterns wouldn't be easy. I don't think the shrinking in this case would be problem since there looks like plenty of stock material that needs to be removed.
Also some of urethane materials I have been playing around with are very strong. Add in aluminum powder and the strength is up there with metal castings so direct reproductions from my casting might be possible and also much cheaper. I paid a couple of hundred dollars for these and Jack total me he didn't make any money selling them too me. He also had to have at least 10 sets cast by a local foundary.
For an ATM if your not setup to do castings it might cost close to $500 or more to get going in your back yard plus the time to learn the skill. The urethane methods would cost about $100 in material and is pretty straight forward.
If the shrinkage was a problem for metal casting I bet I could take the urethane reproduction of my casting and dip coat them in plaster or some other material to build them up to compensate for the shrinkage factor since it's isn't much for the size of these parts.

- Dave


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tim53
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #6059611 - 09/02/13 04:25 PM

Sounds interesting. Do you have links to this urethane stuff?

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Chuck Hards
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: tim53]
      #6059622 - 09/02/13 04:32 PM

Dave, I'm a patternmaker by trade, with professional connections to a local foundry. I could get a set done for a surprisingly low price, for myself.

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JWBriggs
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Re: Restoring my 8" f/6 Springfield new [Re: Jeff Phinney]
      #6267179 - 12/22/13 04:05 PM

I just discovered Jeff Phinney's mention of the Caltech casting patterns related to the smaller Porter-designed site survey telescopes. YES, Jeff, those same patterns are now at the Hartness-Porter Museum of Telescope Making, along with one of the actual clock-driven equatorial heads made from the patterns. It's been some years now since I presented them to the Museum as a long-term loan. But in fact, I have no intention of ever taking them, or the little equatorial, back. So they are a gift to the Museum. Jeff, thank you for making it possible by saving the patterns in the first place, and then entrusting them to me. The actual equatorial, by the way, was given to me by a manager at Big Bear Solar Observatory, about the same time Jeff gave me the patterns. I also received from Jeff some of the patterns related to Russell Porter's small Schmidt camera. They are also at the Museum. If more of those still survive, it would be nice to add them to the Museum collection. Cheers! --John W. Briggs.

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