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Equipment Discussions >> Classic Telescopes

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TahoeNoob
sage
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Reged: 10/31/12

Loc: Sierra Nevada
4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it?
      #5515158 - 11/11/12 10:09 PM

I have a 4 inch mirror and tube, along with some other stuff that probably isn't worth a whole lot. Even so, I'm wondering if I could make a decent "grab and go" scope for myself.

I'm wondering if it would be worth using the mirror and tube, along with a new focuser and spotter, to make a small dob... or, I could use the mount I've got on a new tripod. (I don't think the mount is worth much.)

All this stuff is, at least, 40 years old, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun to have around the house when Huey, Dewey, and Louie show up!

My questions is: Would fixing this old scope up be worth the time/trouble? I'm looking for opinions and ideas. (If I decide to do this, what type of focuser and spotter should I get? I'm not interested in sinking a lot of money into this project.)



http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/TahoeNoob/IMG_2611_10_1.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/TahoeNoob/IMG_2606_5_1.jpg

Here's the other stuff I have:

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/TahoeNoob/IMG_2629_28_1.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/TahoeNoob/IMG_2628_27_1.jpg

Edited by TahoeNoob (11/11/12 10:14 PM)


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tim53
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5515189 - 11/11/12 10:22 PM

Looks like an old Edmund! Restore!

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TahoeNoob
sage
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Reged: 10/31/12

Loc: Sierra Nevada
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: tim53]
      #5515301 - 11/11/12 11:42 PM

Restore, or rebuild with newer accessories?

Equatorial, or dob mount?


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tim53
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Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5515324 - 11/12/12 12:00 AM

Well, you can certainly do what you want, but I'd restore the whole scope with original equipment.

-Tim.


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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5515384 - 11/12/12 12:49 AM

That is an early Edmund probably. The OTA tube may have an ANCHOR label, Edmund bought out Anchor in the late 50's.

Edmund also did a wood tripod 'Classic' 4" scope during their Palomar Jr. production run.

I have both of the above scopes, and the Jr. on pier. The original focuser would be the one with the secondary on the stalk attached. These are 1.25" focusers and not bad.
The wood tripods are a bit shaky compared to the steel pier.
However, they are quite nostalgic. Due to the simplicity of the scope, I'd suggest a quick restore. The shafts ride in bronze Top Hat style bushings. Check the counterweight shaft to see if it is a two part shaft. Sometimes the two part shafts are permanently threaded together and will strip out if you force a sepperation. As long as you can get the stop collars off and get the shaft out through the housing and bushings, you can leave the two part counterweight shaft together. Clean off any old lube and replace with a light machine oil on the bushings. These porous bronze bushings don't take grease. The R.A. shaft will likely have a fiber or plastic washer on each side of the housing.

Your finder is an old one, but not the kind typical on the Palomar Jr. or early Anchor. I have that style finder on a 1950's Edmund 4" refractor, and on an early Starliner 8" F7 GEM. I also have an unmounted one that is a right angle. They are the same body with a set screw on the tapered end.
Check the finder eyepiece for writing. The one on the 4" refractor has "EDSCORP 8X".

If you find the wood legs to be too flimsy, I suppose you could cram the hub onto something better. I'd go for keeping the rest original to begin with and see if it is functional.

if you want any pictures let me know.


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TahoeNoob
sage
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Reged: 10/31/12

Loc: Sierra Nevada
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5515470 - 11/12/12 03:12 AM

I received the scope in about 1972 as a Christmas gift from my parents. It was used at the time, so I don't know when it was manufactured. It has been floating around, in one house or another, ever since! Back when I was a kid, I used it a couple times but never really got into it because we were using an old bicycle inner tube to hold the tube onto its mount. (Nothing ever stayed where it was supposed to and it was almost impossible to see much of anything... except I DO remember seeing the rings of Saturn for the first time! In other words, I got frustrated but an impression was made!)

The focuser takes 1.25 eyepieces, which surprised me. I was expecting it to take something smaller. I read in one of my books that older scopes tend to use smaller eyepieces, which aren't as good. Finding that it takes 1.25 inch eyepieces was a pleasant surprise.

After reading your message, I went and looked at the spotter's eyepiece. I removed some dust and found that, you are correct, it says: "8X EDSCORP." (BTW, that's the only writing I've been able to find on the whole scope. I do seem to remember that there used to be a Mylar sticker on the tube though.)

The tripod has/had to go. "A bit shakey?" How about insanely unstable, rickety, and ready to fall apart at any time? LOL Anyway, after I took pictures this morning, the first thing I did was remove the legs, saw them up, and toss them into the woodstove. (I was cold!)

The counterweight shaft unscrews. The truth is that I'm not completely sure how the mount is supposed to be set up, or used, yet. This afternoon, I loosened up one of the bushings and slid it to where I THINK it's supposed to be. (I'll post a picture of the mount at the bottom of this post.) I know that one of the axis lines is supposed to point towards the north star, but I don't know quite how you're supposed to get that done. (Unless you just sort of guess a little bit.)

My plan is to use the mount I have throughout this winter, and then reevaluate if I want to turn the whole thing into a dob. It's too cold for me to start trying to build a dob mount at this time of year and, besides, I want a scope that I can set up quickly until spring time arrives.

You've done a very good job describing my telescope! I think you've figured out exactly what I've got. I would be very interested in seeing your pictures. In the end, I'm more interested in getting this scope functional again than trying to restore it to its original condition. (It's a scope that I would like to use.)



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bremms
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 08/31/12

Loc: SC
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5516191 - 11/12/12 03:19 PM

That's a nice old Edmund scope and worthy of a light restoration at least.

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tim53
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: bremms]
      #5516269 - 11/12/12 04:04 PM

Don't throw away or burn any more original parts, okay? Even if you don't want them, someone else might. And even if the legs weren't useable, they might have served as patterns for new ones.

I think it's perfectly fine if you want to build a dob mount for the OTA. Just don't throw the original mount away. Others have done similar things to their classics to make them easier to transport and set up, and it can be done without modifying anything - so that when they realize that the scope is more valuable in its original configuration, they can cut up and bbq burgers on the dob base and live happily ever after!

-Tim.


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GeneT
Ely Kid
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Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5516276 - 11/12/12 04:12 PM

The mirror looks just a little dusty. This might be a fun restoration project.

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rguasto
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 11/18/10

Loc: Long Island, NY
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5516385 - 11/12/12 05:36 PM

You cut them up and burned them?! Really?!

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sgorton99
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Reged: 04/30/08

Loc: Wisconsin, Madison
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: rguasto]
      #5516445 - 11/12/12 06:16 PM

Kind of like the 4" Unitron where the tripods legs were 12" short because the owner sawed them off...

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TahoeNoob
sage
*****

Reged: 10/31/12

Loc: Sierra Nevada
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: sgorton99]
      #5516724 - 11/12/12 08:54 PM

Ok, ok! You guys are brutal! I'm sorry. I had no idea. What part of "noob," and "I don't think the mount is worth very much," do you guys not understand? I was asking for advice.

Here's the deal, I've got good news and bad news. The bad news is that, yes, I really did cut the legs up. The good news is that I didn't actually burn them yet. They were still sitting in the kindling pile, waiting to be burned.

Here's what I did, I pulled all the pieces back out of the pile and fit them together. I even went into the garbage can and dug out the hardware! (Bolts, washers, and butterfly nuts.) I was able to find everything.

So, if anybody wants this stuff, I'm willing to send it along... for just the cost of shipping. I don't really need the fitting the legs mount to, but I should probably keep it together with the rest of the hardware. (If I decide I don't want the EQ mount, maybe I'll sell it on eBay at a later time. I don't know.)

If nobody wants the legs, I can't guarantee that I'll keep them forever. I have no use for them. Particularly now that they've been cut up.





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TahoeNoob
sage
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Reged: 10/31/12

Loc: Sierra Nevada
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5516757 - 11/12/12 09:06 PM

How would it be if I put something like this onto the scope?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Edmunds-Scientifics-Astroscan-Reflex-Sight-Finder...


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trainsktg
Post Laureate
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Reged: 08/23/05

Loc: Pacific Northwest
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5516768 - 11/12/12 09:11 PM Attachment (20 downloads)

Unfortunately, this happens in the gun world as well. Folks take an 'old military rifle' and strip, sand and varnish the stock and then wonder why someone will only pay half or less of what they paid for it.

Fortunately, this was not a particularly valuable or collectable scope or tripod so you really didn't lose much if anything. Still, I must admit my heart dropped for a second when I read this this morning.

In this case, the mount for this scope isn't much better. If the optics are good, I'd recommend finding a decent Edmund pier for this scope. Below is a picture of one for reference.

Keith


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trainsktg
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Reged: 08/23/05

Loc: Pacific Northwest
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5516779 - 11/12/12 09:18 PM

Quote:

How would it be if I put something like this onto the scope?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Edmunds-Scientifics-Astroscan-Reflex-Sight-Finder...




You could. I've found that these small, long focus reflectors really don't need one. They are mostly lunar and planetary scopes, and those objects are easy to find in the regular finders. I use a Telrad (a holographic reflex sight) on my 12" dob and there it excels.

Keith


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Joe Cepleur
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/18/10

Loc: Dark North Woods
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: trainsktg]
      #5516869 - 11/12/12 10:00 PM

Take the remains of the legs to your local vocational high school. For a small fee, they'll make new ones. If necessary, wedge a wooden eyepiece tray onto the tripod, to make it steady. For a grab-and-go, a folding tripod is handy.

Since you are a self-described Noob, I'll encourage you to try the equatorial mount, partly because it's a classic, and partly because it beats a Dob mount. This is not a wide-field, low power scope. Objects will drift through the field fairly quickly. You may find following them easily with the equatorial mount is far more relaxing than nudging nudging oops! nudging-too-far a Dob mount all night. Do you know how to align a German equatorial mount?


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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: Joe Cepleur]
      #5517274 - 11/13/12 04:37 AM

Tahoenoob,

STOP. Keep the legs and parts. It is 2 in the morning and I have to get up in 3 hours, then I'll be back very late today after work (brutal schedule). I'll take the legs and hardware for shipping cost.

What you have is a very early 60's or late 50's Edmund scope. These were produced by Anchor which Edmund bought out in the late 50's. Edmund then continued to market Anchor products with the Anchor label till the old stock was gone, or the name lost it's stature. I have the exact scope except for the finder. The finder on my Anchor (Edmund) is original but different than yours. I have the same finder as yours on a 1957 Edmund 4" refractor.

By the way, I used to own a fairly high end wood shop operation, still do some woodwork with my home shop, and I can actually put the legs together fairly easy with dowling. I'd add long spreader block at the joints since my tripod has original blocks in it. I'd pay the shipping anyway just to label and shelf the hub and hardware for future use.

I'll send pictures with next post.

Neil


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TahoeNoob
sage
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Reged: 10/31/12

Loc: Sierra Nevada
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5517754 - 11/13/12 11:41 AM

Neil... No problem, I'll save the legs for you. If they're of use to somebody, I'd rather give them away than burn them! (I want to keep the hub, for the time being.)

At this point I'm wondering if I should try to make a new set of legs for myself. With a triangular cross-brace, wedged between the legs, maybe it would be more stable. (I own a bandsaw and know somebody that has a planer/jointer/tablesaw.)


Joe, your answer makes a lot of sense to me. One of the problems I had when I was a kid, was that everything scrolled out of view too fast. Back then, I had never heard of an EQ mount.

To answer your question about German EQ mounts... No I don't know how to use a German equatorial mount. I know that the bottom axis is supposed to be pointed at the North Star, which allows you to use the other two axes to locate stars and track them while nudging only one axis. What I don't know, is how to get the bottom axis aimed (perfectly) at the North Star. (Perhaps the aim doesn't have to be perfect, if you're not doing astro-photography. (By now, it should be obvious that I AM NOT an astro-photographer!))


All, before I make any more permanent changes... I will consult in this thread. I promise! One thing that's on my mind is that the tube is all scratched up. Originally, I was planning on stripping the old paint, and repainting. Now, I assume that's totally out of the question!

The thing is, I've seen tubes that people have repainted, in this forum! How can repainting be done without wrecking the value of the telescope? What is the process? (If I decide to repaint the tube, it won't be done until next summer.)

Also, would it be ok to drill two holes in the bottom of the tube, for mounting it onto the EQ mount? Or, should I make a plywood box, that clamps to the outside of the tube, and then mount that to the EQ mount?

I thank all of you for your help!

Oy!

Edited by TahoeNoob (11/13/12 11:53 AM)


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Joe Cepleur
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/18/10

Loc: Dark North Woods
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5517806 - 11/13/12 12:15 PM

The beauty of equatorial mounts is that they do not have to be aimed perfectly for visual use. Astrophotographers are fussy, because they worry about blurring their images. Visual astronomers just plop the mount on the ground, and then occasionally tweak the Dec slow motion control to keep the object in view, or maybe tweak the azimuth later if they were too casual in the initial alignment. I've written the instructions before, so I'll just refer you to them.

It is possible to get a serviceable polar alignment in essentially no time, as part of the process of standing the scope on its tripod (find Polaris, cup hands on mount, aim scope at Polaris), so do learn this. When you see how easy it is, you will have had a "Eureka!" moment in learning celestial mechanics.


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tim53
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: Joe Cepleur]
      #5517891 - 11/13/12 12:58 PM

Or:

Youtube on setting up an equatorial mount

-Tim.


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trainsktg
Post Laureate
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Reged: 08/23/05

Loc: Pacific Northwest
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: tim53]
      #5518464 - 11/13/12 06:35 PM

OP...your scope has little collectors' value, even if it were a completely intact specimen. $100 or less. Much less IMO. The telescope pictured in my previous post, a complete 4.25" Edmund in absolutely excellent condition, has been up for sale for over a month now on several forums at $125 and I have had not one email from an interested party. Repainting yours will not matter. In my experience, unlike cars, coins or antique rifles, refinishing a majority of telescopes out there does not seem to alter their value significantly one way or the other, so I don't believe you have anything to worry about.

Keith


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oldtimer
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 11/13/08

Loc: Lake County Illinois
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5518507 - 11/13/12 06:54 PM

The mirrors in these scope were 4.25" F-105.6 spherical mirrors which were very good optically. Early models used a over sized secondary which blocked too much light. I have redone several of these OTAs with modern low profile focusers and .75" secondaries.

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TahoeNoob
sage
*****

Reged: 10/31/12

Loc: Sierra Nevada
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: oldtimer]
      #5522182 - 11/16/12 12:51 AM

I found this thread:

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3652971/page...

and just wanted to link this one into it.

I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do. At this time, I'm tempted to sell it (parts or whole) and put the money towards a smaller/newer scope.

I really wish I hadn't cut up the legs. :kicking self:


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Joe Cepleur
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/18/10

Loc: Dark North Woods
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5522684 - 11/16/12 11:08 AM

Consider the loss of the legs a mere faux paus of a new Classicist. They can be replaced or repaired.

A 4" equatorially mounted classic Newt will teach you and show you more than you think. A new scope may be smaller, but not necessarily better, especially where odds are good yours has a good mirror. Mounted on a tripod, yours would be lightweight to carry outside, a perfect big grab-and-go. Fix it to see what you can learn from it. You'll probably want to keep it. If you decide to move on, you'll have real knowledge of your preferences leading to selling. Remember: You are already in possession of a scope many of us would love to find, a wonderful opportunity.

Four inches is plenty of aperture for learning the basics of astronomy. A nice, portable, vest pocket star cruiser!


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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: Joe Cepleur]
      #5523061 - 11/16/12 03:22 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

Tahoe,

The scope you have is not the one you linked to, I'll get to the one in the link in a moment.
This is the kind you have, it is not a Palomar Jr.
Mine is late 50's to very early 60's. This one is labeled "ANCHOR" but it was put out by Edmund after they bought Anchor Optical.


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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5523065 - 11/16/12 03:27 PM Attachment (10 downloads)

You can paint these tubes and parts without concern about damaging their nostalgia. They are quite easy to strip all the parts off of (just a few minutes), sand or chemical strip the tube, and repaint with a rattle can. This tube (in front) is a Palomar Jr. which is the kind you linked to above.

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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5523067 - 11/16/12 03:30 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Here it is with the primary back in, and OTA mounting bolts. Everything has been replaced with stainless steal hardware.

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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5523074 - 11/16/12 03:34 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

The Palomar commonly had a motor drive. This is one redone, with a little buffing.
The Anchor variety did not come with a drive as far as I know.


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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5523083 - 11/16/12 03:42 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

Repainting can be done without taking out the crinkle or pebble finish. These Palomar legs were done with Rustolium spray can. The word "EDSCORP" was highlighted in white by dabbing with a dipped cloth.

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apfever
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/13/08

Loc: Colorado
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5523100 - 11/16/12 03:51 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

Here's three more Palomars. Two on pier (one basket case), and one on wood tripod. Edmund did make an actual Palomar Jr. on a wood tripod, without a drive. This was done during the regular column type pier production. These were advertised for the nostalgic look. YOURS is not one of these. Yours is older than the Palomars.

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trainsktg
Post Laureate
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Reged: 08/23/05

Loc: Pacific Northwest
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5524264 - 11/17/12 12:10 PM

I like your idea of painting the 'Edscorp' in the white.

In the topic that was previously linked by Tahoe', there is an Anchor telescope shown in Lew's black-and-white group photo about half way down.

Keith


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TahoeNoob
sage
*****

Reged: 10/31/12

Loc: Sierra Nevada
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: trainsktg]
      #5524458 - 11/17/12 02:21 PM

I bought a cheap EQ mount last night. (I think it'll be sturdier than the Edmund EQ mount that I've got, and I also wanted something with slo-mo knobs.) I probably over paid, but the seller is throwing in a bunch of extra stuff that hopefully I'll be able to use. (Dovetail plates, low profile 1.25 focuser, some eyepieces. I hope it's ok to drill some holes in the tube!) I'm sure it's not high quality stuff, but it's a place for me to start. It'll be stuff that I can learn on! Right now, all I have is a pair of binoculars. (I guess when I bought that mount, last night, I decided to fix this scope up!)

Shortly after Thanksgiving I'll be taking delivery of a used Orion XT10i dobsonian. I'm going to need something smaller! Winters can get pretty crazy here! I'm going to need something that I can set up, and transport, quickly and easily. I'm not sure this Edmund reflector is going to fit the bill forever. (The primary mirror DOES look good though, so we'll see.)

Some of you love your original scopes. (This is mine.) I have very mixed feelings about mine. On the one hand, I still remember seeing Saturn for the first time though it... on the other hand, this was a very wobbly, and frustrating, scope for me! I was 12 when I got it, and the tube was held onto its mount with bicycle innertubes! I wasn't old enough, or sophisticated enough, to fix it. As a kid, I was like... *BLEEP*! It was frustrating! In, at least, in some sense... the experience turned me off of astronomy for all these years! (So, yea, parents... if you're going to buy your kid a scope, buy one that's functional! ))

Long term... I'd like to get some sort of classic refractor. (Maybe in the 76mm size.) I've been looking at the old Sears/Tasco listings. (All this "Circle T" and "Diamond Z" stuff has me pretty confused. I'm not even sure if it should be important to me!) If a good deal comes along, I might jump at it... but I doubt I'd know a good deal if it jumped out of the bushes and attacked me!

In the meantime, I've learned my lesson. I'm not going to get rid of, or destroy, any more hardware! (apfever, the legs are yours, AFAIC. If you want them soon, let me know... otherwise it might take some time for me to get organized. Before I send them to you, I'm going to trace their outline. Maybe, if I decide to, I can make another set, and include an eyepiece holder to make things more stable!)

Thanks for the photos! There's a lot of good information in them! They give me ideas, and a goal to work towards!

EDIT: Hmmmmm... I guess you can't say that here. Sorry.

Edited by TahoeNoob (11/17/12 02:29 PM)


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apfever
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5524580 - 11/17/12 03:42 PM

no worries. The polite euphamism for fecal material ( the c word)is where most noobs earn there BLEEP experience. Me too.

I'll get back to you in a PM (private message) on the legs. I have an outreach star party tonight. Supposed to have a JR. High class come out. Yahoo, maybe I'll take a big boy.


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TahoeNoob
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5524599 - 11/17/12 03:52 PM

Actually, what tripped me up was the three letter acronym for "WhaT a Farce." (I shall be more careful.)

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tim53
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5524621 - 11/17/12 04:10 PM

Whiskey tango foxtrot??

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wfj
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5524652 - 11/17/12 04:34 PM Attachment (9 downloads)

Quote:


The Anchor variety did not come with a drive as far as I know.



Neil,
I'm not so sure. I acquired a 8" with what appears to be a Anchor mount, and it has a clock drive.

Note that the castings don't have any markings like the Edmund ones.

I seem to remember that these with the red knobs (90 degrees to side on polar axis) were in the Jaegers catalog in Sky and Tel back in the 70's.

By the way, does anyone know about the wooden legs for these?


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Joe Cepleur
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5525643 - 11/18/12 07:59 AM

Don't drill the tube to attach it to the mount. Buy or make rings. Rings allow rotating the tube in the mount, as is necessary with an equatorial mount if you hope to keep the eyepiece in a comfortable location as the scope tracks the skies.

Trademarks are essential, but you need not rush to learn them. Just post questions here when scopes are available for sale. You might learn, for example, that the shiny, pristine antique available across town were judged to be likely extremely fine if it were a Circle-T, but nothing special if it were a Diamond-Z. This can occur even in the same model. Towa and Tanzutsu both built what was sold as the Jason 313, but only the Circle-T is widely regarded as a poor-man's fine small refractor.

In buying, don't fuss too much over exact aperture class as marked on the objective. 76mm, 80mm... pretty much the same beast. Look for the quality of the scope versus its price instead. Better to test and buy a good 80mm than waste money on a lesser 90mm sight unseen.


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apfever
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: wfj]
      #5526480 - 11/18/12 05:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:


The Anchor variety did not come with a drive as far as I know.



Neil,
I'm not so sure. I acquired a 8" with what appears to be a Anchor mount, and it has a clock drive.

Note that the castings don't have any markings like the Edmund ones.

I seem to remember that these with the red knobs (90 degrees to side on polar axis) were in the Jaegers catalog in Sky and Tel back in the 70's.

By the way, does anyone know about the wooden legs for these?




Bill,

I was refering only to the 4.25" reflectors for drives.

Hey! I'd sure like more info on the mount you pictured. The exact same kind of counterweight is here, sold as an Edmund, but it didn't match anything Edmund. Do you have any more info on anchoring down the mount ID? I believe the mount you pictured is for a 6" reflector. At least it is comparable to my Edmund 6". My Edmund 8" is a monster brute compared to my 6".
The 6" has a 1" diameter counter shaft, and the 8" is 1.5" diameter.


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wfj
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5527164 - 11/19/12 12:38 AM

Quote:


Hey! I'd sure like more info on the mount you pictured.




Love to give it to you Neil, but I've taken it apart to components and not found a single mark (other than the casting "gates", of course). The Cramer motor has a data of 9 77.

Quote:


The exact same kind of counterweight is here, sold as an Edmund, but it didn't match anything Edmund.




Yes sir. One has a "1", the other a "2", they are otherwise identical and match the rest of the mount.

Quote:


Do you have any more info on anchoring down the mount ID?




Only an absence of information. That is, all the marks on an Edmund mount, every last one of them are gone, yet the dimensions are exact to the castings of an Edmund.

Quote:


I believe the mount you pictured is for a 6" reflector.




Yes sir, a 1", like the 6" sold by Edmund, down to the same mounting hardware.

Quote:


My Edmund 8" is a monster brute compared to my 6".
The 6" has a 1" diameter counter shaft, and the 8" is 1.5" diameter.



Exactly. The 8" it came with is a home built with an f/5 mirror. I had speculated it might have come from Edmund, but there aren't the usual marks, and it isn't coated by Pancro. The cell was an Edmund.

The reason I'm bringing this up here is the Anchor connection.

When I measured the radius of the saddle, its for a tube diameter more appropriate for a 4" scope than an 6".

I often wondered if the 1" mount was what the Anchor 4.25" scope had originally - would have made it rock solid. And then perhaps they came up with a "discount" mount later.

So this might be what bothered the OP from the beginning.


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TahoeNoob
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: wfj]
      #5545900 - 11/29/12 05:46 PM

Ok, so I got this new tripod and mount that I plan to use with my Edmund. It needs a little bit of work, but I don't think it's going to be too bad. The main thing I need to do is take apart the EQ mount and figure out why it's so snug. Also, the DEC axis binds when I try to rotate it in the clockwise direction. (I'm guessing there's some sort of cam in there that's too tight.)

Am I going to have to grease anything upon reassembly? If so, what type of grease should I use? (I have white lithium grease, and other grease too... in my bicycle tool box.)

If there's anything I should know before I take this head apart, now would be a good time to let me know.

Anyway, here are some pictures:







Edited by TahoeNoob (11/29/12 06:03 PM)


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Joe Cepleur
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5545937 - 11/29/12 06:11 PM

The mount likely sticks due to old, gummy grease. Clean it thoroughly, and replace with Mobile 1 Synthetic Grease. It's perfect in cold climates, because it works low temperatures.

The open worm gear must be coated *not* with the Mobile 1. Use dampening grease to prevent backlash. Someone should pipe in about the right brand and weight.


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TahoeNoob
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: Joe Cepleur]
      #5546596 - 11/30/12 02:02 AM

I got it almost completely taken apart. The old grease is all gummy. I don't have any of that Mobile 1, so I'll clean everything up and then sit tight until I get some. (I can't use White Lithium Grease?) I assume it's ok to take the old grease off with acetone. I don't see how that would hurt anything, except for maybe the rubber gaskets which I won't clean that way.

I noticed that the RA's exposed worm gear was being run dry. Is that a problem? I'd rather continue to run it dry, if it won't hurt anything. That way I won't get grease on my hands every time I touch it! If I use grease, what type of grease should be used to prevent backlash?

I'm not completely sure how the Dec slow-mo works yet. There's no worm gear. It's got a spring loaded mechanism. Maybe it's got limited travel. I'll have to take a closer look at it tomorrow. Whatever's going on, it seems very strange.

I haven't taken apart the RA slow-mo stuff yet. It needs to be taken apart too. It's sticky. The correct tool to use would be a small spanner wrench, which I don't have. Hmmmmm! I might be able to get it apart with a pair of vice grips and a paper towel used for padding. (I don't want to take a screw driver and whack it!)

Dec slow-mo:


RA:


Edited by TahoeNoob (11/30/12 02:31 AM)


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TahoeNoob
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5548099 - 12/01/12 12:12 AM

Does it have to be Mobile One, or is any motor oil ok? How about the weight? Doe it matter? I'm also still waiting to find out what type of grease prevents backlash, although I'd like to avoid putting grease on exposed parts, if I can.

The mount is all cleaned up. All I have to do is line up my lube, and I'll be ready to start reassembling.


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TahoeNoob
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5548102 - 12/01/12 12:13 AM

Hmmmm, "Mobile 1 Synthetic Grease!" I guess that's not the same thing as motor oil.

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Joe Cepleur
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5548121 - 12/01/12 12:32 AM

Quote:

Hmmmm, "Mobile 1 Synthetic Grease!" I guess that's not the same thing as motor oil.




Yes; GOOD CATCH -- "Grease," not "motor oil."

I'll let someone who knows better than me expound on dampening grease for the worm, what type or whether to skip it. You could always finish everything else in the mean time. This would be the last step.


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TahoeNoob
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: Joe Cepleur]
      #5548164 - 12/01/12 01:24 AM

I found a short thread on lubes: Short Thread on Lubes

The two lubes that I saw mentioned are Super-Lube and Krytox. Not sure if that's what you put on the worm gear though.

I guess it would be nice if I could find what I need at Ace Hardware, or maybe Home Depot.


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desertrefugee
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5548569 - 12/01/12 10:53 AM

It certainly wouldn't be a disaster if standard non-damping grease were used. You might even find the backlash adjustable enough to be perfectly usable. And hang tight

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Bill Griffith
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5548636 - 12/01/12 11:43 AM

Tahoe,
A belated welcome!! Great thread.

Dupont Krytox has the consitency of engine assy. grease. May be considered on the slightly expensive side for the amount received though.

Krytox is a standard (personal opinion)for space flight hardware applications it will stay lubrious in extreme temp. deltas and is approved in coating (mirror) chambers because of it's null outgassing characteristics.

Hence, I use Krytox on focusers collimation screws; anything NEAR optics. ( my experience)

On mounting equip. I still use an ENGINE assy. grease on shafts, washers, bearings and worm gears because of the absence of tolerance influence.

I especially like ENGINE assy. grease in an exposed worm/spur gear application because of the very thin film application. The ENGINE assy. grease wicks/wipes off easily with alcohol and a wipe. Then reapplied easily. I change out exposed worm/spur grease frequently. Enclosed worm/spur is a different matter

ANY grease is a great grit magnet.

We all probably find our favorites and there is no absolute right or wrong, just personal preferences.

Bill

Edited by Bill Griffith (12/01/12 12:55 PM)


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bremms
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: Bill Griffith]
      #5548677 - 12/01/12 12:09 PM

Krytox is good stuff. It's a Flouroploymer grease/ lube with a couple of different thickness base stocks. It is vacuum rated and comes in a range of thicknesses, with or without EP modifiers and anti corrosion. I have a tube of GPL 205 , GPL226 and another at work that might be GPL225.
DO NOT get it on optics, it is very hard to remove. Ordinary solvents won't work on Krytox.


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bremms
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: bremms]
      #5548685 - 12/01/12 12:14 PM

I like Slick 50 grease for worm gears. Its tacky and says in place really well. Unfortunately, it isn't made anymore. Mobil 1 grease is good or go to a Grainger and get some NLGI 2 or 3 tacky grease.

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Joe Cepleur
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: desertrefugee]
      #5548857 - 12/01/12 02:02 PM

Quote:

It certainly wouldn't be a disaster if standard non-damping grease were used.




Certainly not a disaster. Could always clean it off later.

Quote:

You might even find the backlash adjustable enough to be perfectly usable.




The equatorial mount of my Jason 313 has become close to unusable since removing the original dampening grease. The good news is that the original grease froze so hard in cold weather that the scope became close to immobile. With Mobile Synthetic, everything turns so freely that even the weight of the dangling slow mos can rotate the mount. (The slow mos do not dangle freely; they favor a certain curve.) Adjusting the tension between the worm gears has not changed this. So, I've learned that dampening grease matters, and am following this thread looking for answers.


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TahoeNoob
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: Joe Cepleur]
      #5549067 - 12/01/12 04:35 PM

Does anybody know anything about Napa Sil-Glyde Lubricating Compound?

This morning I stopped by both the hardware store and the local motor parts store. Neither place had the brand names that I was looking for. The guy at the motor parts store was really nice and swore that Sil-Glyde would work perfectly. He thought the grease you guys are recommending would be too thick. Anyway, after a full twenty minute course in all things grease, Grease Talk 101, I felt obligated to buy a 4oz tube! On the label it says: High film strength. Stays put. Water repellent. Won't run or melt. Effective from -20* to +600*F. Prevents freezing. Harmless to rubber.


I also found an old tube of Pedro's Syn-Jection Grease mixed in with all my bicycle tools. On the label it says: Ultra Performance Synthetic Grease. Superior water and corrosion resistance. Structural stability for longer lasting performance. 100 percent synthetic means reduced friction and low wear.


Now that I have two greases, I'm not sure which one to use!


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tim53
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5549098 - 12/01/12 05:07 PM

Y'all know you mean "damping" not "dampening," right?

You want it to wobble less, you're not really trying to make it wet.

Tim


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desertrefugee
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: Joe Cepleur]
      #5549113 - 12/01/12 05:18 PM

Quote:

The equatorial mount of my Jason 313 has become close to unusable since removing the original dampening grease.... So, I've learned that dampening grease matters, and am following this thread looking for answers.




I would just offer up that damping grease is not a magic elixir. If the machining tolerance of a mount's gearset is off to such a degree that it depends on the viscosity of added lubrication to reduce a significant amount of mechanical "slop", then that's not an ideal condition.

I'll still maintain that axis performance should be completely controllable with the mechanical adjustment provided in the assembly - regardless of the choice of lubrication. If not, perhaps a better mount specimen or model might be advised for demanding use.


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TahoeNoob
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: desertrefugee]
      #5549195 - 12/01/12 06:26 PM

As far as the exposed worm gears are concerned, is running them completely dry a bad idea?


Why do I think "dampening" might be correct? "The vibrations were damped," sounds wrong to me.

This is going to bother me until I finally get off my lazy rear and look it up, three weeks from now. Lay and lie; whose and who's; it's and its; good and well. Ugh! Honestly, I could care less. I care! LOL


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PiSigma
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5549201 - 12/01/12 06:31 PM

Shock absorbers on vehicles are more correctly called dampers not dampeners.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dampers


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actionhac
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5549220 - 12/01/12 06:43 PM

I've been meaning to order from here:
http://www.nyelubricants.com/products/damping.shtml

At the bottom of the page "Damping grease sample kit" would be a good thing to start with to get the right one.

I have a tube of outboard motor gear lube that I think belonged to Christopher Columbus its dried out to the perfect viscosity and works well but its not the same as damping grease.

Robert


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tim53
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5549225 - 12/01/12 06:45 PM

Quote:

Shock absorbers on vehicles are more correctly called dampers not dampeners.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dampers




They need to add:

6. Star Trek: Inertial Dampers (though if you watch the show enough, you'll see some of the characters say "Dampeners" as often as Dampers. But maybe the really are trying to wet something (their pants, perhaps?), instead of stop it from wiggling?

-Tim.

Edited by tim53 (12/01/12 06:45 PM)


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tim53
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: tim53]
      #5549228 - 12/01/12 06:46 PM

For binocular focusers, I've heard Chap Stick recommended as a damping grease.

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TahoeNoob
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: tim53]
      #5549316 - 12/01/12 07:41 PM

From the same dictionary: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dampen?s=t

2. to dull or deaden; depress: to dampen one's spirits.

Is it possible that we're all right?


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Joe Cepleur
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: actionhac]
      #5549389 - 12/01/12 08:56 PM

I have Nye Lubricant's sample kit. It consists of half a dozen damp(en)ing greases of different weights, each packed in a little plastic pillow pack, like the mustard and ketchup at fast-food restaurants. After reading the copious instructions, I selected the heaviest grease for my worm gears, and found it made... no difference! The mount had worked fine in warm weather until I cleaned the old gunk from the worm. Now, no adjustment has prevented backlash, to the point where it's hard to keep it on a target, so it appeared the new grease was the problem. I'll play again with the tension adjustment on the worm. Maybe I'm a lousy mechanic, or maybe my mount is a lemon!

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TahoeNoob
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: Joe Cepleur]
      #5549501 - 12/01/12 10:42 PM

Tomorrow I'll put it back together:



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TahoeNoob
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5550922 - 12/02/12 07:49 PM

I still have some minor work to do on the tripod, I'm looking for some 5" mounting rings, and I haven't even started working on the actual scope yet... but I sure am having fun! (The best thing is, I used to dread just looking at the scope... now I see that it's got promise! I look forward to actually using it!)



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actionhac
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: actionhac]
      #5559068 - 12/07/12 11:06 AM

Quote:

I've been meaning to order from here:
http://www.nyelubricants.com/products/damping.shtml

At the bottom of the page "Damping grease sample kit" would be a good thing to start with to get the right one.

I have a tube of outboard motor gear lube that I think belonged to Christopher Columbus its dried out to the perfect viscosity and works well but its not the same as damping grease.

Robert




I received the sample kit. I'll see how it works.

Robert


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actionhac
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? *DELETED* *DELETED* new [Re: actionhac]
      #5559073 - 12/07/12 11:07 AM

Post deleted by actionhac

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actionhac
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: actionhac]
      #5559088 - 12/07/12 11:15 AM Attachment (14 downloads)

Nye asked a few application questions and sent this kit.
Fluorocarbon Gel 868. Very Light (VL) thru Very Heavy (VH).
Heavy is specified for microscopes, surveying equip. Very Heavy for focusing mechanisms.


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apfever
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: actionhac]
      #5559305 - 12/07/12 01:27 PM

Bob, I've seen these sample kits before and have heard that they are quite nice. I believe there are some strings on CN, Classic Forums, about these samples. I'd be very interested in your report. I have several scopes to do (as usual) and I'l likely make an actual volume order. I could just order a sample, but in all honesty, I'll have enough input with your report.

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TahoeNoob
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Reged: 10/31/12

Loc: Sierra Nevada
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5736348 - 03/16/13 01:48 PM

I'm still here. I've just been busy working on a bunch of other projects! Anyway, I had the tube black powder coated, and my brother made me a bracket to hold the mounting rings/clamps. (I wanted to have the clamps black powder coated too, but the guy wouldn't do it for beer... so that's not gonna happen!)

Does anybody know of a product that would allow me to powder coat the clamps in my oven?

A couple pictures:




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amicus sidera
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5737174 - 03/16/13 08:28 PM

Very nice, looks great! Personally, I wouldn't powdercoat the mounting rings, I think it would be a bit too much black. Their natural color goes with the other shiny metal hardware on the mount.

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desertrefugee
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 08/06/07

Loc: Arizona
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5737409 - 03/16/13 09:39 PM

Agreed. Very nice. Looks like you're done to me. Time to get it outside!

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TahoeNoob
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Loc: Sierra Nevada
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: desertrefugee]
      #5737441 - 03/16/13 09:55 PM

I still need to clean the mirror, and put it together for the final time.

The mirror is in good shape, but it's very dust. (This scope has been sitting out in the garage for 40 years!) I'm a little bit afraid. I think I'm going to have to take the cell out of its mount and I've read that when you put it back in... you have to be careful not to make it too tight. There's also the whole "I don't want to damage the mirror" thing.

I found this in the Beginner's Forum. Is it reasonable?

cleaning a mirror has to be done carefully. The most important thing to understand is that telescope mirrors are first surface mirrors and the coating are quite soft. This is how I clean a mirror:

- Remove the cell from the telescope, remove the mirror from the mirror cell. Blow the dust off the mirror either with a bulb or with canned air. Do not use a brush.

- Prepare a clean sink or for a smaller mirror a large clean bowl. Rinse the mirror by running water across the surface. The soak the mirror in the bowl, clean cool water with a tad bit of dish soap. After some time, 10 to 20 minutes or less, rinse the mirror under the tap, rinse the mirror with distilled water and let dry.

If the mirror is still not clean, then I soak it and very carefully swab the surface with a bundle of about 6 surgical cotton balls. This is done under the water and the balls are just floated across the surface every so lightly.

Rinse, Rinse with distilled water. Tilt up in a safe place and let dry. A few remaining droplets may require dabbing dry.

Replace mirror in cell, making sure the clips are not pinching the mirror, reinstall the mirror cell in the scope, collimate and you are ready to go.


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TOM KIEHL
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 11/17/12

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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: apfever]
      #5737679 - 03/16/13 11:35 PM

I too have a Anchor scope like yours Niel, The research I found on the Anchor optical newt., said Edmoumds bought Anchor and then,,, Started production of the Pal JR pier mount and keep the tripod style also, after the sale of Anchor to Edmounds. Mine dates about 1954 and has a coated prism for a secondary mirror glued to a single stalk,that has a flat plate that is 90* to the stalk ,,Edmounds wanted that Anchor design for ther own.. so they bought Anchor,,and besides Anchor was right down the street from Edmounds.. I quess Edmounds wanted to be the BIG DOG on the block so to speak,,, SERVIVAL OF THE FITTEST

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catboat
professor emeritus
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Reged: 12/01/09

Loc: Maine
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5738083 - 03/17/13 06:55 AM

Tube and mount look great! Nice work!

Your mirror cleaning instructions look fine to me. Just take your time and don't strive for perfection. You can always do it again.

I sometimes use my finger tips instead of cotton balls because fingers sense grit and you know to stop. Have cotton balls on hand in any case, plenty of them (and throw them away after each *very* light swish or dab).

During the initial rinse, clean the sides and back of the mirror so you don't contaminate your "soaking" water with grit.

Have no fear about removing your primary from its cell and remounting it correctly. Your retaining clips may need some fresh cork or felt between clip and mirror surface. Stick-on furniture pads work well. They may also need some cork/felt on the uprights to take up slack between the uprights and the side of the mirror. The usual rule of thumb on "how tight" is to place a file card between clips and mirror and the snug the clip down lightly.

Great to see that you've got this up and running again. Enjoy it.


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Mirzam
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: catboat]
      #5738151 - 03/17/13 08:20 AM

I use the same method to clean my mirrors. The only added wrinkle is that I get my wife's hair dryer to help chase off any remaining droplets after the distilled water rinse. With a small mirror this is probably overkill.

JimC


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TahoeNoob
sage
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Reged: 10/31/12

Loc: Sierra Nevada
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: Mirzam]
      #5743359 - 03/19/13 04:18 PM

I'm getting ready to clean my mirror, but I've run into a minor problem...

When trying to remove the mirror from the cell, after removing the three hold-down clamps, I find that the mirror is glued to the cell. Is this normal? Should I try to pry the mirror out of the cell? I don't think I want to soak the whole cell... do I?

I suppose I could wedge a sharp knife into the crack and try to pop the mirror off the mount, but I don't know if that'll work. I don't want to hurt anything. Does anybody have any advice?



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rdandrea
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5743388 - 03/19/13 04:29 PM

I've cleaned mirrors in the cell before. I know it's not recommended and certainly not optimum, but I think I'd rather do that than risk damaging the mirror by heating it or prying it off. Just dismantle the cell far enough to remove anything that can rust like nuts, bolts, or springs.

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Mirzam
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: rdandrea]
      #5743410 - 03/19/13 04:36 PM

Definitely don't try to pop the mirror off. You will likely cause a clamshell fracture.

Assuming the glue is silicon, and you have a space between the cell and the glass, you can poke a sharp knife into each blob of glue and slice through it by angling the knife back and forth. Don't lever the knife against the glass or you will risk damage.

JimC

(If you get the mirror off, scrape the remaining glue with a straight edge razor blade. Don't ever glue it back on again! Use the mirror clips to gently hold the mirror in its cell.)


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catboat
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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5743432 - 03/19/13 04:51 PM

Yikes! That's a tough one. Looking at the photo, it's a very thin layer of cement all around the circumference. It doesn't look like there's room to get even a knife blade in there. If the glue covers a large area away from the edge, this could be problematic.

You may have to clean the mirror in the cell -- easiest thing to do. But since it probably came from Edmund this way, others have surely encountered the same situation, and maybe someone can tell you the kind of glue, how to soften it, etc. Good luck on this.


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TahoeNoob
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Loc: Sierra Nevada
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: catboat]
      #5743453 - 03/19/13 05:01 PM

Oh good, quick advice... but I'm going to sit around for a while to see what others have to say.

Thanks!


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Masvingo
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Reged: 01/10/12

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Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5743513 - 03/19/13 05:29 PM

Well, Uncle Rod on a recent blog entry on cleaning mirrors says:

"What if, like more than a few imported telescopes, your mirror is glued into its cell by silicone stuff? You have two choices: clean the mirror in the cell or break the silicone loose (using a wire to cut it is usually the best way to get the mirror out). I prefer to clean the mirror in the cell if possible."


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actionhac
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Loc: Seattle
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: TahoeNoob]
      #5743524 - 03/19/13 05:35 PM

Your scope is beautiful I love the color.
Can you clean the mirror attached to the cell?
Edmund stuck the mirror to the cell with a double sided tape.
They were proud of the "Scientifically engineered" fact that the steel cell has the same expansion/contraction characteristics as the Pyrex mirror.
I recently bought a Palomar Jr. and mine is stuck on the cell just like yours.
I haven't had a chance to work on mine yet but I'm going to leave it and not disturb the joint and clean around it.

Look in here, page 2, "Primary Mirror Mount":
http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/classics/edmund/palomar-jr.pdf
Edmund states rubber cement thinner to remove the mirror, but I would not remove it if possible, not until it needs a recoat.
When you reinstall the clips don't let them touch the mirror. Slide a business card under the clip as you tighten the screw.

Robert

Edited by actionhac (03/19/13 06:01 PM)


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actionhac
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Loc: Seattle
Re: 4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it? new [Re: actionhac]
      #5743956 - 03/19/13 08:38 PM Attachment (3 downloads)

I went back to the begining of this thread and I see your Palomar Jr. is a 1950's model.
My new scope is also a 1950's model with the primary taped to the cell.
Interestingly though I also have a Deluxe Space Conqueror (1960's version of the Pal Jr.) and the primary is not stuck to the cell.
So I don't know how much of a difference it makes whether the cell is attached to the mirror or the mirror is free to move around.
My Deluxe Space Conqueror mirror has what may be a date, Sept 24th 1970, so its fairly new and the latest in technology and not bonded to the cell:


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