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Equipment Discussions >> Classic Telescopes

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turk123
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Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain
      #5839775 - 05/04/13 09:28 AM Attachment (187 downloads)

I thought I would start another thread now that the Buk is in my possession. I started by cleaning the tube. What a difference. It looks pretty solid with a little bit of spider cracking around some of the bolt holes. But I really wanted to get at the mirror.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5839781 - 05/04/13 09:31 AM Attachment (109 downloads)

There were no markings on how the mirror was positioned in it's holder or in the tube. I removed it carefully to find a very dusty coating on on the top of the mirror.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5839787 - 05/04/13 09:33 AM Attachment (108 downloads)

I took out the mirror and put the whole thing in the sink. I used my "special" formula telescope solution and distilled water and got the dust layer off. Bugger was really dirty. The mirror looks great.

Edited by turk123 (05/04/13 09:35 AM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5839799 - 05/04/13 09:39 AM Attachment (102 downloads)

OK, now for the back of the mirror. It is NOT a Cave , just as we all anticipated. It looks like the word "chemoptics" is written in red on the back. The picture is in B & W and enhanced to see what is scribed on the back in pencil I believe.

R=80 7/8' and the words "Oblate no bad zones"

Edited by turk123 (05/04/13 04:35 PM)


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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5839997 - 05/04/13 12:02 PM

those tube rings are really something. I've never seen such thick rings on a Cave.

-Tim.


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davidmcgo
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: tim53]
      #5840052 - 05/04/13 12:25 PM

What is the central hole diameter? Protostar had a small diameter Blacklite tube already flocked that is approx 38mm outer diameter and was a good fit with some adhesive felt for my DK primary baffle.

Dave


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: davidmcgo]
      #5840313 - 05/04/13 03:39 PM

Quote:

What is the central hole diameter? Protostar had a small diameter Blacklite tube already flocked that is approx 38mm outer diameter and was a good fit with some adhesive felt for my DK primary baffle.

Dave




The hole measures 41mm. Sounds like what you got would work. I looked on their site but did not find anything with that small a diameter. I can call them on monday.

Thanks for the tip. I may use one of their liners for the inside of the large tube also. The existing flocking has turned light grey and is not in very good shape.


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Compressorguy
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5841789 - 05/05/13 02:38 PM

Very nice score Turk and great job on the mirror. It looks great. Looking forward to seeing her back together and first light report.

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starman876
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Compressorguy]
      #5841819 - 05/05/13 02:58 PM

Another great scope find. Great find

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: starman876]
      #5841889 - 05/05/13 03:36 PM Attachment (80 downloads)

Thanks guys.

I just started taking the back mirror holder apart. It is definitely "hand" crafted as the drill hole only line up one way. I marked the parts with a steel punch ( . . ) two dots so I know how it all goes back together. Everything came apart very easily (so far) and now it is off to paint and polish.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5841894 - 05/05/13 03:39 PM Attachment (60 downloads)

I measured and photographed the distances that it came set at just for reference when it goes back together. I also removed the 2" focuser. It still has the original "Sky Micro" band on the focuser knob shaft.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5841898 - 05/05/13 03:40 PM Attachment (62 downloads)

The focuser also only fits one way, recessed into the back aluminum plate. It was machined with very tight tolerances.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5841901 - 05/05/13 03:42 PM Attachment (74 downloads)

Here is the Sky Micro 2" focuser with my Teleview "beer can" eyepiece.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5841903 - 05/05/13 03:44 PM Attachment (46 downloads)

Here are the "markings" I put on the parts. This is the first (and I'm sure not the last) time I used a hammer!

It's funny, but after doing this, I am finding double marks just like mine on several surfaces of the metal. Someone had my idea back then.

Edited by turk123 (05/05/13 03:45 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5841908 - 05/05/13 03:49 PM Attachment (37 downloads)

Here are the locking screws and adjusters springs. These are not used to adjust the mirror, but only to lock down after the mirror is adjusted. There is a smaller threaded rod ( 3 ) with hex ends that are used to adjust the mirror. It is not shown here but is shown in front of the larger screw in the previous picture. It allows the mirror to be locked down after all adjustments are made.

Edited by turk123 (05/05/13 03:51 PM)


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terraclarke
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5841912 - 05/05/13 03:52 PM

Hi Tom,

It's already looking great, just with a little cleaning. You are going to have one fantastic telescope there. With regard to the mirror: After cleaning, it looks great, as you say. I would attribute this, at least in part to the coatings. As I remember when I sent my 6 inch F4.5 mirror off to Cave for the final parabolic figure and for aluminizing, that in their literature they advertised special, corrosion-resistant coatings along with the aluminizing. If I remember right, they said that a fine layer of zirconium? was deposited over the aluminized surface to protect it. They said that the finish on the mirror, thus treated, should last many years with proper care. This was in the mid 1960s. Which brings me to my last point, I wonder if "Chemoptics" hand written on your mirror could have been the people who applied the aluminizing and coatings. My point being that maybe you do have a Cave mirror? Perhaps some of our other SoCal folks here that remember Cave back in the day may be able to shed more light on Chemoptics.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5841914 - 05/05/13 03:53 PM Attachment (58 downloads)

Here are all the parts assembled together. The screws at the top are mated with spacers. Below and center are the adjustment screws for the mirror and below that, the three lockdown screws.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5841920 - 05/05/13 03:56 PM Attachment (55 downloads)

Next step is to give the stews, washers, spacers, springs and nuts a rust remover bath. Main parts have been washed and will get a light sanding and paint.

Also, everything has it's own bag and is marked. I don't want to go looking for each part later on.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5841954 - 05/05/13 04:11 PM

Quote:

Hi Tom,

It's already looking great, just with a little cleaning. You are going to have one fantastic telescope there. With regard to the mirror: After cleaning, it looks great, as you say. I would attribute this, at least in part to the coatings. As I remember when I sent my 6 inch F4.5 mirror off to Cave for the final parabolic figure and for aluminizing, that in their literature they advertised special, corrosion-resistant coatings along with the aluminizing. If I remember right, they said that a fine layer of zirconium? was deposited over the aluminized surface to protect it. They said that the finish on the mirror, thus treated, should last many years with proper care. This was in the mid 1960s. Which brings me to my last point, I wonder if "Chemoptics" hand written on your mirror could have been the people who applied the aluminizing and coatings. My point being that maybe you do have a Cave mirror? Perhaps some of our other SoCal folks here that remember Cave back in the day may be able to shed more light on Chemoptics.




I took the mirror back out to the bench and cleaned the back a bit more. I used a very bright light to try to see if there are any other markings at all. I found nothing on the back and sides. It would be interesting to know the history of these mirrors. I agree, throw it out there and see if anyone can supply us with more history.

By the way "chemoptics" in korea was founded in the 90's I believe and may not be associated with this company name on the back. It also may be a company that moved to Korea.


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PiSigma
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5841955 - 05/05/13 04:12 PM Attachment (61 downloads)

Looking great so far Tom.

I've seen alignment marks on a number of Cave mirror cells. Here are the ones on my Model B Deluxe. These look cast in whereas the ones on my Custom Super Deluxe are hand punched.


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Compressorguy
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: PiSigma]
      #5842024 - 05/05/13 04:56 PM

Really!........."Astronomical" themed ziploc bags. Very professional. You cant teach that.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Compressorguy]
      #5842158 - 05/05/13 06:01 PM

Quote:

Really!........."Astronomical" themed ziploc bags. Very professional. You cant teach that.




OH, I hoped nobody saw that.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5842316 - 05/05/13 07:43 PM Attachment (39 downloads)

The telescope back was pretty pitted and oxidized (see earlier photos). I did some research on polishing aluminum on the internet and discovered a company called Zephyr. They have polishing compounds, polishing wheels, and a system to get a mirror finish out of aluminum. Here is what I bought.

The bars are the polishing compound. Different degrees of cutting and polishing. Brown is the highest grit then white and finally rouge red. The polishing wheels also have degrees of roughness and ability to polish. Finally the buffing wheel is used last to get the final finish.

Edited by turk123 (05/05/13 07:44 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5842319 - 05/05/13 07:47 PM Attachment (44 downloads)

I set up a rig outside. The last polishing job I did brought the wrath of the lady of the house down on me for spraying the basement with compound. She was right, and I didn't clean it up. So I was banished to the outdoors. The tarp is their to protect me from further wrath from damaging any plants or brickwork.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5842324 - 05/05/13 07:50 PM Attachment (40 downloads)

The back is a smooth aluminum. It is pitted and not really that even. I figured it could get a good clean and polish to make it look a little better. I won't bore you with the entire routine, but i gradually went through all the degrees of polish and polishing wheels and did a final buffing.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5842327 - 05/05/13 07:51 PM Attachment (29 downloads)

I then took it inside and used Mothers on it to get rid of any further oxidation. I also rinsed it in soap and water 2 or 3 times to get the film off.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5842335 - 05/05/13 07:56 PM Attachment (41 downloads)

Finally I used several coats of Fleet wax to bring out the final shine. No, thats not the mirror. It's not perfect with the pits and imperfection, but it looks so much better than before. I wonder if Mr. Cave delivered this telescope with shinny aluminum. Probably not. Probably more of a satin shine. I am debating whether to polish the rings instead of painting them in instrument grey. Might add a nice touch to her. I have a picture of her with polished rings, so they did deliver some this way.

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rfic1
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5842376 - 05/05/13 08:18 PM

Looks great but just be aware that mirror like surface is going to reflect any outside stray light right back at you.
Back in 1975 I was bothered by reflections off my 6" Cave white fiberglass tube. So I painted it flat black. Now as a collectable I'm sure the painted tube detracts from it's value but it did solve the reflection problem.
Cant wait to see the rest of your restoration.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: rfic1]
      #5842444 - 05/05/13 09:02 PM Attachment (42 downloads)

Never thought about the reflection. Well, I will just have to wait and see.

In the back you can see the mount poking it's head up. Just behind my "also" new pride and joy (and I don't mean the car, it's my wife's.)


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Steve_M_M
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5842445 - 05/05/13 09:02 PM

Quote:

The telescope back was pretty pitted and oxidized (see earlier photos). I did some research on polishing aluminum on the internet and discovered a company called Zephyr. They have polishing compounds, polishing wheels, and a system to get a mirror finish out of aluminum. Here is what I bought.

The bars are the polishing compound. Different degrees of cutting and polishing. Brown is the highest grit then white and finally rouge red. The polishing wheels also have degrees of roughness and ability to polish. Finally the buffing wheel is used last to get the final finish.




Hi Tom,

Funny. We were both out working on our scopes today with the same stuff. Clint taught me about the brown, white, and red rouges with the buffer a couple years ago. Works great! That said, my wrists and arms are killing me after several hours work. I can barely hold a diet coke I hope yours are doing better.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Steve_M_M]
      #5842459 - 05/05/13 09:09 PM

Hi Steve

I'm taking mine a bit slower than you, but that said, my wrist do hurt! Yours is looking very nice. The color on the tube is gorgeous! Who knew what was behind the dirt.

I just removed the rear ring and tested a new paint remover Datapanic suggested: aircraft remover. You can get it at autozone. It is fantastic! took off all the paint in just one coat. Suggest doing this outside though, the fumes are a bit much. I hope I don't bring any planes down.

Edited by turk123 (05/06/13 08:08 AM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5844479 - 05/06/13 09:28 PM Attachment (36 downloads)

OK, the main tube rings are next. I used Aircraft remover on the aluminum rings. Scrap, add more remover, scrap, add light coat, use wire brush to get all the paint out of the fine machining lathe marks.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5844482 - 05/06/13 09:29 PM Attachment (31 downloads)

After removing my watch before I destroyed it, I completely washed every thing in soap and water.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5844484 - 05/06/13 09:32 PM Attachment (33 downloads)

I polished it a bit with Mothers just to see what they could look like. I will use the polishing compound and wheels (outside) for a final finish. What does everyone think about polished rings instead of industrial grey rings?

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5844487 - 05/06/13 09:34 PM Attachment (29 downloads)

Sitting in the corner, the tube is calling me to work on it. I think I will try the light wet sand with 2000 grit to get a more uniform color, but I have to think about it first. Last time I sanded a tube, the fiberglass web started showing through. It will have to wait till tomorrow anyway.

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davidmcgo
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5844506 - 05/06/13 09:55 PM

Might just start with rubbing compound on cheesecloth and see what you get before sanding.

Great work so far!

Dave


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: davidmcgo]
      #5844531 - 05/06/13 10:08 PM

Quote:

Might just start with rubbing compound on cheesecloth and see what you get before sanding.

Great work so far!

Dave




That's a great idea! I'll try it.

Thanks for the compliment.


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mustgobigger
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5844918 - 05/07/13 05:09 AM Attachment (37 downloads)

thats what i do....finishing compound with a wheel in a small
area...to see results.
its nice to get out and do the work the guys in warmer climates
can do all year long.
thats why i just redid my basement a month ago.
no more idle winters.
great job on the cave....glad someone here got it.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: mustgobigger]
      #5845028 - 05/07/13 07:33 AM

Wow! Great shop! Absolutely perfect for the winter. I am so glad you're not the kind of guy who draws outlines on the pegboard around the tools! Collecting telescope can be a form of OCD. You can relax. Clearly this proves you normal.

I feel fortunate for getting the Cass cave. Thanks


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starman876
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5845070 - 05/07/13 08:14 AM

Brian
I was looking at that round Craftsman drum sander at sears the other day. Looks like it has a lot of neat gadgets. How well does it work?


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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: mustgobigger]
      #5845198 - 05/07/13 09:52 AM

Quote:

thats what i do....finishing compound with a wheel in a small
area...to see results.
its nice to get out and do the work the guys in warmer climates
can do all year long.
thats why i just redid my basement a month ago.
no more idle winters.
great job on the cave....glad someone here got it.




I recognize the workbenches, because last weekend my son and I did the same thing for his guitar shop - put two together just like that!

-Tim.


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mustgobigger
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain *DELETED* new [Re: starman876]
      #5846581 - 05/07/13 08:47 PM

Post deleted by mustgobigger

Edited by mustgobigger (05/07/13 08:50 PM)


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herrointment
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain *DELETED* new [Re: mustgobigger]
      #5846590 - 05/07/13 08:52 PM

Post deleted by herrointment

Edited by herrointment (05/07/13 09:02 PM)


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mustgobigger
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain *DELETED* new [Re: herrointment]
      #5846604 - 05/07/13 08:57 PM

Post deleted by mustgobigger

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mustgobigger
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: mustgobigger]
      #5846621 - 05/07/13 09:04 PM

tom ill move these so i dont clog up your cave post.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: mustgobigger]
      #5846756 - 05/07/13 10:18 PM Attachment (44 downloads)

Back to the scope.

I thought about the rubbing compound and cheese cloth and then it kind of hit me. I've owned 2 sailboats in my life and these tubes are nothing but fiberglass and gelcoat. Same as a sailboat. So I decided to use what I am use too. 3M makes a product called Finese-it II. It is a very light rubbing compound mainly used to get rid of swirl marks in paint finish. It is used almost exclusively on gelcoat. You have to use a buffer, preferably an orbital buffer as the compound is so light that hand polishing would take forever.

After the buffing I used another sailboat item, fleet wax. I used the buffer to shine it up. What do you think? I think it looks great especially compared to the original pictures of this scope. I was worried then, not anymore!


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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5846767 - 05/07/13 10:23 PM

Looks nice! How did it do on the spider-cracks? It seems to me that with a good, clean polish that they don't look as bad afterwards.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5846779 - 05/07/13 10:29 PM

Quote:

Looks nice! How did it do on the spider-cracks? It seems to me that with a good, clean polish that they don't look as bad afterwards.




The only spider cracks on the tube are around the finder ring holes. These are deep enough to have a black color to them. The wax did not cover. Fortunately, most of them will be covered by the finder ring mounts.


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Steve_M_M
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5846781 - 05/07/13 10:30 PM

That looks awesome. It always amazes me how well classic scopes clean up with some TLC. Very nice job!

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Steve_M_M]
      #5846818 - 05/07/13 10:42 PM

Quote:

That looks awesome. It always amazes me how well classic scopes clean up with some TLC. Very nice job!




Thanks Steve.

The finesse-it compound is also very forgiving. You do not have to worry about "burning" a hole through the finish it is so light like I did on a previous scope with 2000 grit sandpaper. Again, you must use a buffer with this stuff.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5846835 - 05/07/13 10:52 PM Attachment (43 downloads)

OK. So here is a Cave catalog picture of the 10" cave Cass telescope. Notice it has "polished" rings. Most pictures show just painted rings. I like the polish. What do you think???

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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5846863 - 05/07/13 11:10 PM

If it were me, I'd go with polished as pictured. I wouldn't paint the tube grey though. It might me nice to accent the Pier Cap, Clock Drive Housing, Cradle and Leg Levelers with wrinkle black, but that's your call.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5846883 - 05/07/13 11:21 PM

Quote:

If it were me, I'd go with polished as pictured. I wouldn't paint the tube grey though. It might me nice to accent the Pier Cap, Clock Drive Housing, Cradle and Leg Levelers with wrinkle black, but that's your call.




Painting the tube was never an option. I like the idea of possible using the wrinkle black as a highlight. Guess I'll mess around in photoshop.


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albert1
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5846944 - 05/08/13 12:13 AM

I'm with you, keep the rings polished and the tube white. Your sailboat experience paid off on that OTA - what a difference. Nice job!

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John Higbee
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: albert1]
      #5847174 - 05/08/13 05:46 AM

Tom - The combination of white tube, polished components per the ad picture, and wrinkle black components per Dan's list, would look great!

John


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Jim Curry
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: John Higbee]
      #5847240 - 05/08/13 07:27 AM

Good stuff, Turk. I've got a 10" f/5 Cave that's going to need some work so your documentation is a great help.

Jim


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mustgobigger
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Jim Curry]
      #5847272 - 05/08/13 08:01 AM

Polish...+

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: mustgobigger]
      #5847309 - 05/08/13 08:36 AM

Quote:

Polish...+




I'm going to take a ring outside and run it through the polish wheels to see how it looks. The machining rings in the metal will stop it from getting a mirror finish, but maybe that is good. Imperfections is the metal also will show, but the polishing should limit this.

OK, back to paint stripping. Love this "aircraft remover". Absolutely no need for bead stripping and roughing up the surface.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5847413 - 05/08/13 09:48 AM Attachment (27 downloads)

The rings got a coat of the famous "aircraft remover".

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5847417 - 05/08/13 09:51 AM Attachment (26 downloads)

In about 6-7 minutes you can begin to scrape (and I use that term lightly) the paint away. More like the paint just falls away from the aluminum. I hope I don't wake up tomorrow with a pool of aluminum on the floor.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5847421 - 05/08/13 09:53 AM Attachment (38 downloads)

The final result. This did not take very long at all. One thing you need to remember is when finished, wash the parts with soap and water to remove all the paint remover or guess what, your paint won't stick. Did I say I liked this "Aircraft Remover"?

Edited by turk123 (05/08/13 09:54 AM)


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starman876
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5847433 - 05/08/13 10:02 AM

What happens when you pour it over an aircraft? Does it vanish

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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5847445 - 05/08/13 10:07 AM

Quote:

The rings got a coat of the famous "aircraft remover".




There were airplanes in your Cave?


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: starman876]
      #5847447 - 05/08/13 10:08 AM Attachment (28 downloads)

Quote:

What happens when you pour it over an aircraft? Does it vanish




Like I said before, that's why I am doing this inside. I don't want to bring down any planes.

Ready, set, FIRE!


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Dave M
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: tim53]
      #5847452 - 05/08/13 10:09 AM

I need some of that aircraft remover while imaging

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Dave M]
      #5847482 - 05/08/13 10:25 AM

OK I need some advise. Should I be using a primer on the parts first? If so, what kind, brand, color? The two backs are just getting a flat black finish. The finder rings will get the industrial grey (or what ever color I pick).

Would the crinkle black be appropriate for the two backs?


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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5847492 - 05/08/13 10:31 AM

I used a self-etching primer. Works great! Without primer, the paint will... ...well, it'll do what they all do on these old scopes, because nobody seemed to use primer on aluminum in those days!

Wrinkle black is very pretty when done right. And it's not hard to do right - just follow the instructions to a Tee. If you have an electric oven and enough SPUs to use it, set it at about 150F for a couple hours and it'll cure up nice and hard. Otherwise, give it a few days to dry.

I like the Instrument grey that Cave used in the 60s. They seem to have switched from that to the metallic grays and wrinkle black about the time your scope was built. I don't remember seeing an instrument grey scope with wrinkle black accents, but don't know if I've seen enough to say they never did that.

Of course, you can do what you want. I've always liked the color version of the catalog pic you show above, but think it would be even nicer looking if the tube were white.

-Tim.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: tim53]
      #5847793 - 05/08/13 01:43 PM Attachment (27 downloads)

With the recommendation of Tim, I bought Duplo-color self etching primer. It's reviews won out over the rustoleum version. I also bought a spray on metal cleaner just to get any oils or oxidation of the surfaces. I believe it has the etching component in it also.

I used a brass wire wheel on a grinder to spot polish the components as some of the castings are quite rough. You can see spots that Cave's crew ground down to "shape" the part, but my no means did they spend much time. I used the brass wheel to smooth out some of the rougher areas.

The instructions call for 3 thin coats of primer, which I did. (For those of you worried about the ring bottom in the picture, it got one last shot.) 2 minutes between coats (the paint is dry to the touch by then) and let dry for 30 minutes or longer. Here are the primed parts.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: tim53]
      #5847806 - 05/08/13 01:47 PM

Quote:

If you have an electric oven and enough SPUs to use it, set it at about 150F for a couple hours and it'll cure up nice and hard. Otherwise, give it a few days to dry.





Acronym Definition
SPU Strategy and Policy Unit
SPU Synergistic Processor Unit
SPU Short Procedure Unit (various hospitals)
SPU Society for Pediatric Urology
SPU Sub-Picture Unit
SPU Secure Processing Unit
SPU Strategic Procurement Unit
SPU Service de Pédagogie Universitaire (French: Department of University Education; University of Namur; Belgium)
SPU Socket Power Unit
SPU Subsystem Power Unit
SPU SAP Processing Unit
SPU Sociedad Peruana de Urología
SPU S-Band Polar Ultra
SPU Special Planning Unit
SPU Simulator Processor Unit
SPU Service Publication Unit
SPU Stage Pré-Universitaire (French: Pre-University Course)
SPU Shard Productions Underground (online video group)
SPU Supra-Phrasal Unit (linguistics)
SPU Solar Panel Unit
SPU Single Package Unit
SPU Sheep Production Unit
SPU Socialist Party of Ukraine
SPU Sound Pick-Up
SPU Special Purpose Unit
SPU Southern Polytechnic University
SPU Special Police Unit
SPU Segmented Polyurethane
SPU Sardar Patel University (Vallabh Vidyanagar, Gujarat, India)
SPU Seattle Pacific University
SPU Signal Processing Unit
SPU Southern Polytechnic University (Georgia)
SPU Seattle Public Utilities
SPU State Power Utility (India)
SPU Sound Processing Unit
SPU Somos un Pueblo Unido (Spanish: We Are a United Town; New Mexico)
SPU Split, Croatia (Airport Code)
SPU System Processing Unit
SPU Sripatum University (Thailand)
SPU Solids Processing Unit


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5847810 - 05/08/13 01:49 PM Attachment (24 downloads)

Here is the ring just before priming. It shows the smoothing I did to the metal.

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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5847838 - 05/08/13 02:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If you have an electric oven and enough SPUs to use it, set it at about 150F for a couple hours and it'll cure up nice and hard. Otherwise, give it a few days to dry.





Acronym Definition
SPU Strategy and Policy Unit
SPU Synergistic Processor Unit
SPU Short Procedure Unit (various hospitals)
SPU Society for Pediatric Urology
SPU Sub-Picture Unit
SPU Secure Processing Unit
SPU Strategic Procurement Unit
SPU Service de Pédagogie Universitaire (French: Department of University Education; University of Namur; Belgium)
SPU Socket Power Unit
SPU Subsystem Power Unit
SPU SAP Processing Unit
SPU Sociedad Peruana de Urología
SPU S-Band Polar Ultra
SPU Special Planning Unit
SPU Simulator Processor Unit
SPU Service Publication Unit
SPU Stage Pré-Universitaire (French: Pre-University Course)
SPU Shard Productions Underground (online video group)
SPU Supra-Phrasal Unit (linguistics)
SPU Solar Panel Unit
SPU Single Package Unit
SPU Sheep Production Unit
SPU Socialist Party of Ukraine
SPU Sound Pick-Up
SPU Special Purpose Unit
SPU Southern Polytechnic University
SPU Special Police Unit
SPU Segmented Polyurethane
SPU Sardar Patel University (Vallabh Vidyanagar, Gujarat, India)
SPU Seattle Pacific University
SPU Signal Processing Unit
SPU Southern Polytechnic University (Georgia)
SPU Seattle Public Utilities
SPU State Power Utility (India)
SPU Sound Processing Unit
SPU Somos un Pueblo Unido (Spanish: We Are a United Town; New Mexico)
SPU Split, Croatia (Airport Code)
SPU System Processing Unit
SPU Sripatum University (Thailand)
SPU Solids Processing Unit




It's not on the list!

Spousal Permission Unit!


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starman876
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: tim53]
      #5847912 - 05/08/13 02:37 PM

I wish I was retired or had the day off to play like you are Turk.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: starman876]
      #5848250 - 05/08/13 05:20 PM

Quote:

I wish I was retired or had the day off to play like you are Turk.




Well, I'm not retired, but I own my own business that I am able to get away from when I need to. Also, a lot of my work is done on the computer from anywhere. I tend to have a phone stuck in my ear most of the day.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5848473 - 05/08/13 06:55 PM Attachment (27 downloads)

The mirror holder parts got three coats of flat black and they look good. Put them away for a few days and let them cure. The misses would shoot me if I baked them in her oven.

Edited by turk123 (05/08/13 09:54 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5848671 - 05/08/13 08:42 PM Attachment (22 downloads)

Lots of small parts to be polished. I did 6 finder thumbscrews (not shown) and this assortment of parts. At first I thought I would replace all the hardware with new if I could get equivalent items. After thinking about it, I kind of realized I would be throwing away the original parts for new. The brass washers shown here were pretty well black in appearance and although they did not clean up perfectly, I kind of think they ought to stay. They have a right to stay, they are original. Am I getting too sentimental?

On another note, the spacers shown in the top of the picture interested me. When they were filthy, they looked like brass. Now that they are cleaned up, the have taken on a rose color. What metal it that?


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mgwhittle
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5848682 - 05/08/13 08:44 PM

Looks like bronze to me.

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Kevin Brose
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: mgwhittle]
      #5848701 - 05/08/13 08:53 PM

Yup, those are bronze.

I owned and used a 10" Cave D-K Cassegrain for 19 years, so if you have any questions feel free to ask.

- Kevin


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Kevin Brose]
      #5848723 - 05/08/13 09:05 PM

Keven, did you add a baffle inside? How were the views. Where you able to collimate it or mess with the optics? I'm not sure where to begin to get it back to focus when I put it back together. I've measered all the settings now, but who knows if they were all ready messed with and out of "round".

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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5848782 - 05/08/13 09:27 PM

Could be self-lubricating bronze.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5848859 - 05/08/13 10:00 PM

I have to choose a color now. Should I go with the original industrial grey or my second choice, pewter grey. The rods between the tube rings will get painted this color along with the two sets of finder rings. I am going to send the counter weights off to Paul's Chrome for chroming. I think that would be a nice match for the polished tube rings. Yes?

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Kevin Brose
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5848868 - 05/08/13 10:06 PM


Yes indeed, I had to add a primary and secondary baffle. As you are doing now I completely disassembled the telescope so I had to start from scratch when it came to the optics.

My Cave D-K was built in 1978 and appeared to have actual Cave optics as the typical Cave info (SN, focal length) was inscribed on the primary. Unfortunately the critical information - back focus and separation distance - was not included. I then had to reverse engineer the system, but that topic is so complicated it would take up too much space on the forum. Suffice it to say that without knowing the back focus and separation distance you have some work to do. At least you have some measurements to start with. PM me and I can provide more detailed info about setting up the optics.

As for the views, the optics were terrible. When I received the telescope the image quality at the focal plane was no better than 1/2 wave at best. The primary was severely over corrected and the secondary was anything but a sphere. I had to have the entire system re-figured. I hope your optics are better!

Once the system was properly configured the views were very good. If your optics are OK then you have something to look forward to, but it may take some effort to get there.

- Kevin


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altair1956
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Kevin Brose]
      #5848886 - 05/08/13 10:18 PM

I had one of these in the early 1980's and had to sell it. Divorce, life issues, that sort of thing. Had one of my best views of Jupiter thru it. I am really glad to have found this thread, it brings back good memories and I am enjoying your great efforts at bringing this back to life. Thanks and I'll be watching to see how things go

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: altair1956]
      #5851038 - 05/09/13 10:15 PM Attachment (29 downloads)

I started looking at the finder and Capt. Nemo focuser. How does the focuser break down? It is really sticky from the grease turning to varnish and I would like to get it apart further. I just don't know where it breaks apart? It seems to me the center tube or assemble might be threaded and come apart. I can't get it to budge.

The tube has too many scratches to be just cleaned and wet sanded. I will strip it and do a new paint job on it. The eyepiece marked .33 (I think it is what came with the caves) has a chip on the inner glass. : ( It can be replaced.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5851072 - 05/09/13 10:32 PM

Just after I posted this I went back and it practically fell apart. It unscrews in a different place than I was looking. Inside is a locking ring that holds the rest of it together. I'm a bit tired and will post pictures of all the components and their order, tomorrow. Man is this thing sticky!

It also has the Don Trombino "P-touch" label on it. One of two labels on the scope and mount. I think I will carefully remove it and either make a replica of it and re-attach, or see what condition it is in and decide if it can go back on.


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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5851089 - 05/09/13 10:44 PM

Wow Tom, I can't believe how much you've accomplished is such a short time. Seems like you just got it home and you are well on your way to having it all restored. I'm impressed.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5851117 - 05/09/13 11:05 PM Attachment (30 downloads)

Quote:

Wow Tom, I can't believe how much you've accomplished is such a short time. Seems like you just got it home and you are well on your way to having it all restored. I'm impressed.




Hi Terra

The OTA is just about done. The finder is going to need a lot of paint work and I may hold off on it until the weather stabilizes here and I can paint outside. I have so many optics in the basement that I hate to paint down there anymore.

The mount is the next step. I am sure I will need some help from you guys on this. I need a wiring diagram that includes the paddle or box. The dec wire is broke and does not seem to match the color coded wire. The DEC motor is barely hanging on and I am hoping there is no damage. It looks like it got hit in a move. Time will tell.

I have not taken the motor box apart either. I am shooting a wedding for a friend on Saturday but Sunday will find me back at the workbench.

This seems all out of order. I spent 4 months waiting to get the 10" cave from New York, only to switch gears and start working on the Cass. The 10" super deluxe will be next on the schedule and to make matters worse, I just bought an 8" cave lightweight out of Florida"

I gotta stop . . . and I gotta start counting like you!

Edited by turk123 (05/09/13 11:05 PM)


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terraclarke
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5851147 - 05/09/13 11:28 PM

Wow, that is another beauty! What a gorgeous classic Newt to go with your Cass. You have an amazing collection Tom.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5851182 - 05/10/13 12:06 AM

Quote:

Wow, that is another beauty! What a gorgeous classic Newt to go with your Cass. You have an amazing collection Tom.




I guess all this has came out of the love of doing the cave-astrola website. These are special scopes to me.
My last purchase is actually not the 8" cave in Florida, but a very special cave, well, in miniature! I have had a wonderful correspondence with Barry Crist. He is now living in Arizona and is retired from the miniature telescope business. For those of you who don't know, Barry has done many miniatures of some very famous scopes. One of his last was the telescopes at mount Wilson. They are a work of art. Do a google search on Barry crist miniatures to see the many works of art he has done.

After corresponding for a few weeks, I contracted Barry to do a very special Cave miniature. It is a model of Jon Miles 10" f/6 super chrome deluxe. Barry has agreed to photograph the entire process ( he has even recruited his wife as camera person) and we will write up a story for the cave-astrola.com website. I will have more information on availability of a few of the models if you are interested. I will not be making anything on them, but doing this only to support Barry and a new roll-off observatory he is building. There may be two available. Possibly several more if I can talk Barry into coming out of retirement. These will be his best models to date. I don't want ths to be a advertisement. It is not. It is just a way to payback a guy who deserves a little piece of history in the classic telescope tradition.


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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5851190 - 05/10/13 12:14 AM

The last Barry Crist model of a 10" Cave on eBay a while ago went for quite of few bucks. I sure would be glad if he started up again - his work is awesome and I would love to have one of his works.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5852841 - 05/10/13 10:09 PM Attachment (23 downloads)

Taking the focuser apart was a challenge not knowing how it came apart. Once I realized I was trying to unscrew the wrong area, it came apart. Here are the components. The black will have to be repainted as there are chips in the paint missing.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5852843 - 05/10/13 10:11 PM Attachment (19 downloads)

The focuser has the first of two name tags from the original owner Don Trombino. I will remove the name tag and maybe add it back after painting, or a replica if the tag is fragile.

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starman876
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5852873 - 05/10/13 10:21 PM

heat the tag with a hair dryer to soften the glue. I bet the tag will come right off

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: starman876]
      #5852896 - 05/10/13 10:33 PM

Quote:

heat the tag with a hair dryer to soften the glue. I bet the tag will come right off




That worked perfectly. The tag is too brittle to put back on. I will replace it with a replica and keep the original.


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herrointment
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5853042 - 05/10/13 11:51 PM

Great thread and one neat telescope!

Thanks for the time and effort to present it here for all of us to enjoy.

Jim


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Chassetter
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: herrointment]
      #5853343 - 05/11/13 08:01 AM

The tag should be your name. You've earned it with such an amazing restoration job!

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terraclarke
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5854001 - 05/11/13 03:18 PM

Quote:

The focuser has the first of two name tags from the original owner Don Trombino. I will remove the name tag and maybe add it back after painting, or a replica if the tag is fragile.




Very interesting. Don Trombino was a well known Florida amateur who operated a solar observatory around Daytona I believe. He died in 1998 at the age of 58. There are several pictures of his stuff in the Solar Astronomy Handbook (Willmann-Bell pub.).


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mustgobigger
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5854045 - 05/11/13 03:51 PM

Looking good....what's dia. And
Fl of finder.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: mustgobigger]
      #5855090 - 05/12/13 09:34 AM

Quote:

Looking good....what's dia. And
Fl of finder.




76.2 mm and F=910mm


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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5855302 - 05/12/13 11:41 AM

With 40mm eyepiece you would be at 22x, in the 76mm scope. Even that might be a bit much for a finder but it is great guide scope for imaging. Did you get the original Cave 7x50mm finder with the scope ? The one at the local high school has two of them on both the sides of the scope since in certain positions of the mount, if there was just one it would be in a difficult position to use.

- Dave


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #5855447 - 05/12/13 12:55 PM

Quote:

With 40mm eyepiece you would be at 22x, in the 76mm scope. Even that might be a bit much for a finder but it is great guide scope for imaging. Did you get the original Cave 7x50mm finder with the scope ? The one at the local high school has two of them on both the sides of the scope since in certain positions of the mount, if there was just one it would be in a difficult position to use.

- Dave




It did not have the smaller finder and rings. There are holes in the tube where one was mounted though. Someone here very nicely sent me a set of finder rings and my 10" cave newt has a 7 x 50 finder I can borrow for use and pictures. If anyone has a cave 7 x 50 please PM me.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5856188 - 05/12/13 07:39 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Well the large finder tube was not only dirty, but also had a lot of nicks and scratches but mostly just in the paint. I learned when I redid my 7TE-5's tube that if you think that a scratch in the paint will fill with paint, your wrong. So I sanded everything down as far as the aluminum if it had a scratch and feathered it out for the paint. There are a few deeper nicks that I will fill with JB Weld and sand out. I also found out that JB Weld is stronger than the aluminum. Should I just use a sanding primer like the etching primer I used on the other components to fill the nicks? Will it fill the nicks (very shallow)?

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gelkin
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5856211 - 05/12/13 07:50 PM

I like using glazing putty for minor imperfections. Its available at auto parts stores. No mixing, sands nicely and may even require a couple applications to fill in good enough.

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DAVIDG
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5856232 - 05/12/13 08:02 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

Many of the Cave 50mm finders I've seen have issues with the cement betweem the lens elements going bad but I wouldn't let that scare you away from buying one. It's easy to separate the elements and redo the cement. Here is one I did on the Cave I'm restoring. Instead of cementing the elements I oiled them. I hope you find an original replacement for your scope.

- Dave


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DAVIDG
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #5856251 - 05/12/13 08:14 PM

Tom,
I worked in body shop when I was in high school. I would use sandable or filler primer and apply two coats then wet sand with 400 grit paper. Any low spots will show as darker in color. Then use glazing putty to fill in any remaining scratches and wet sand again. Bondo makes glazing putty. It comes in a tube and dryes quickly so it you can sand it and paint over it within about 15 minutes of it being applied. Prime a third time. Lightly scuff the primer and able the color. Let the color dry for a couple of days and wet sand the surface with 1000 grit paper. Then buff with rubbing compound and it will come up like a mirror.

- Dave


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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #5856346 - 05/12/13 09:08 PM

Glazing putty is great if you only fill small nicks and scratches with it.

It's basically a very thick lacquer paint, so it dries fast but is brittle (why you don't want to fill dents with it).

-Tim.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: tim53]
      #5856382 - 05/12/13 09:29 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

The counter weights on this baby are heavy. The largest here, is 35 lbs. Stripped with my favorite remover

Paint came off very easy. Must have gone to rust as the finish is showing. Probably why it was re-painted (shown in second picture.)..


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5856383 - 05/12/13 09:30 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

Finished removing paint.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5856389 - 05/12/13 09:35 PM

The self etching primer says it's able to be sanded early after spraying, but it says not to apply it over a filler or bondo type sanding filler. Guess I don't want to use the self-etching primer even though it is over aluminum, what it is supposed to be used for. Am I making this too hard?

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858594 - 05/13/13 09:14 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

The weight ended up pretty clean after using the rust remover. I am look to maybe running it on a lathe to get the finish I want. Chrome would be expensive and 6 weeks out here.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858600 - 05/13/13 09:17 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

Lifted this bad boy on the bench tonight. Now the fun begins . . .

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858606 - 05/13/13 09:19 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

I started by removing the DEC setting circle and a nylon washer behind it. Comes off with a set screw.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858609 - 05/13/13 09:21 PM Attachment (9 downloads)

Next is the RA setting circle and collar. I had to use paint remover to free up the pieces so they could slide off.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858616 - 05/13/13 09:23 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Slide the collar off and then the circle.

Edited by turk123 (05/13/13 09:24 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858619 - 05/13/13 09:24 PM Attachment (9 downloads)

Three thumb screws remove the motor cover.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858621 - 05/13/13 09:25 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

Another picture

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858623 - 05/13/13 09:27 PM Attachment (10 downloads)

The DEC motor was hanging by one screw. I am hoping it is OK.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858627 - 05/13/13 09:28 PM Attachment (10 downloads)

I removed the brass cover by loosening the one hex screw on the end of the cover.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858631 - 05/13/13 09:29 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

That reveals the worm gear. It looks pretty rusty but I think it will clean up. Into the the rust remover pail.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858637 - 05/13/13 09:32 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

The motor was hanging on by one bolt. It looks OK! I have not run any of the motors yet. Gonna need some help there.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858639 - 05/13/13 09:33 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Close up of the work gear. It comes off the aluminum bracket by removing to hex bolts from behind.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858644 - 05/13/13 09:36 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

Here is the order of parts making up the work assembly. The top two bolts are the mounting bolts that go threw the plate around the DEC shaft and into the worm block.

The two side bolts hold the edge of the two bronze bushings from coming out. It also provides for a tensioner for the worm shaft.

Edited by turk123 (05/13/13 09:37 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858651 - 05/13/13 09:38 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

Another parts order picture

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858656 - 05/13/13 09:42 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

Guess I'm lucky in two ways. Loosened the cradle bolt from the top and 1 1/2" shaft almost took off my toe! Fell right out which is the second lucky think. Didn't hit my toe, and didn't have to beat it.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858661 - 05/13/13 09:44 PM Attachment (10 downloads)

DEC gear with bearing sitting right on top. Just lift it away.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858665 - 05/13/13 09:45 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Just sits up there.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858672 - 05/13/13 09:47 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

The three hex bolts come out to remove the clutch?? It has a delicate split ring inside ( at least mine is split!)

Notice the writing that says "Oil"


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858675 - 05/13/13 09:48 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

Gear lifts off. You can just see the ring inside.

Is this to be cleaned and not greased???

Edited by turk123 (05/13/13 09:49 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858680 - 05/13/13 09:51 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

I had to bring out the small hammer to tap this ring off the main shaft. Put WD-40 on shaft to get it to free up.

There is the other bearing. One just like this on the other side. I did not take them out. I used WD-40 on the to clean and lubricate and wiped many times with a rag to remove dirt. They turn very well now and will get grease later.

Edited by turk123 (05/13/13 09:52 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858687 - 05/13/13 09:54 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

To get the plug out of the end and then to remove bolt from inside, I had to use a pipe on a allen wrench for leverage. Hardest bolt yet to get out.

Edited by turk123 (05/13/13 09:54 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858689 - 05/13/13 09:55 PM Attachment (9 downloads)

I had to really crank on it. Fortunately the Allen wrench is very large.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858692 - 05/13/13 09:56 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Parts are getting smaller! Here is the end of the RA shaft. There is the bolt I had to remove and I put it back into the shaft.

Edited by turk123 (05/13/13 09:58 PM)


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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858693 - 05/13/13 09:56 PM

I usually clean that teflon strip with soapy water then give it a light coating of silicon Super Lube. Be gentle with it because it can easily bend. Be sure to mark which way the clutch goes because more than likely, the bolt holes only line up one way. If it's too late for that, it's not too hard to figure it out

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858700 - 05/13/13 09:59 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

This is the largest bolt on the mount. It is painted and not going anywhere. It now becomes the biggest challenge to remove.

Out comes the hammer again and lots of WD-40 and it finally breaks away.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858703 - 05/13/13 10:00 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

There is the bolt

My cap has two set screws to help hold the whole assemble at the right angle.

Edited by turk123 (05/13/13 10:02 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858710 - 05/13/13 10:04 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

The RA motor box. The motor is held in place by one hole drill through the motor housing just as many of you described in your restorations.

I took the three hex bolts off the ring gear and removed.

Edited by turk123 (05/13/13 10:05 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858711 - 05/13/13 10:06 PM Attachment (10 downloads)

Here it is off the shaft.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858713 - 05/13/13 10:07 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Dropped the motor off the bracket. Keeping the wires intact for now.

Edited by turk123 (05/13/13 10:20 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858714 - 05/13/13 10:08 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

You can see the worm assembly attached to the housing plate just as the dec was attached, with 2 hex bolts.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858716 - 05/13/13 10:09 PM Attachment (9 downloads)

Pop out the two bolts and the whole worm assembly block comes off.

Edited by turk123 (05/13/13 10:09 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858724 - 05/13/13 10:14 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

OK Here is where I need some help. There are three set screws holding the gear plate on the shaft. They are on so tight, the allen wrenches are now rounding the holes. I soaked them in Blaster and still can't get two of them out. Ideas??? Chisel a slot into them and use a screwdriver? Looks like dissimilar metals has fused them together.

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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858742 - 05/13/13 10:23 PM

If you're going to cut slots for screwdrivers, use a hack saw instead of a chisel. I've done that when I've sheared a rusty bolt off the Model A, and it works pretty well if you have enough bolt protruding, as you appear to have here. If that doesn't work, drill them out with an undersized drill, progressing to larger sizes until all that's left of the setscrew is the threads, which are easy enough to get out by that point.

But hopefully you don't have to go that far.

-Tim.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: tim53]
      #5858760 - 05/13/13 10:30 PM

I will give both of those ideas a try. I am going to have to replace them anyway.

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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858784 - 05/13/13 10:41 PM

I would also try smothering them with Liquid Wrench or WD-40 and on the front and back sides of the Clock Drive Housing Backplate and let them soak for a while - maybe even applying more of the stuff after a 1/2 hour or so.

Then use ViceGrips on 'em! But go slow and be careful because those are steel allen head bolts going into aluminum and they can gall the inside threads where they go into the RA Shaft Housing and make it even more difficult to get out. There's also the risk that the bolts will snap and break.

Heating them with a mini butane torch might help loosen them up too.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858815 - 05/13/13 10:54 PM

Cutting a notch was easy, but it just tore away tho sides. I am drilling it out. Problem is, these set screws are some kind of hardened steel (makes sense) and I may need a lot of drill bits. I am going to get it on my drill press tomorrow. I have to find a way to secure it so it doesn't turn.

Drilling is almost like polishing the hole your drilling. Goes no where!


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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858832 - 05/13/13 10:58 PM

Can you get the RA shaft out of the housing? Because Dan's right, a pair of vice grips (small ones) would be the best thing here. Yeah, those puppies can be HARD from probably having been stamped. So you might even ruin a drill bit or two trying to drill them out.

Do you own an easy out? A drill that twists counterclockwise?

-Tim.


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John Higbee
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5858833 - 05/13/13 10:58 PM

Tom - think I may have a lead on an original 50mm Cave finder for you - PMs sent to your cave-astrola.com address.

Great progress on the 10" Cassegrain...keep on truckin'!

John


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: tim53]
      #5858847 - 05/13/13 11:04 PM

Quote:

Can you get the RA shaft out of the housing? Because Dan's right, a pair of vice grips (small ones) would be the best thing here. Yeah, those puppies can be HARD from probably having been stamped. So you might even ruin a drill bit or two trying to drill them out.

Need a diamond tip drill bit.

Do you own an easy out? A drill that twists counterclockwise?

-Tim.




Cant get the shaft out unless this piece comes off. Shaft goes out the other way. I do have an easy out. I just have to find it. The one I drilled is halfway cut, so the easy out won't work for it.


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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: John Higbee]
      #5858852 - 05/13/13 11:08 PM

There are left-handed carbide machinists drill bits that are good for drilling them out. The bits spin counter-clockwise and usually, will eventually remove what's left of the bolt if it comes to that.

If the heads are off and you can get the backplate off, then you can use more Liquid Wrench or WD-40 to get in there and hopefully free things up.

I'm kinda surprised those specific bolts are on so tight! I've never had problems in that area. But, you never know what surprises will come along. The good part is that you're almost there!


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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5858873 - 05/13/13 11:15 PM

Here's the link about the set screws that hold the shaft on to the Seal Master Bearings: Linky about 4th post down

You're right that the back plate has to come off if you want to get the RA shaft outta there. It can come out either way, but once everything is clear, usually it's from the front to back/dec shaft housing end to the rear because the rust and gunk on the end of the RA shaft will bind up if you try to take it out the other way. Some folks just leave the RA shaft in the RA Shaft Housing, tape it up and paint it - really, there's no need to take it that far apart as it's just the two Seal Master bearings on either end and the RA Shaft is probably pristine between the bearings. The bearings are also pressed in to the RA Shaft Housing - same with the Dec Shaft bearings.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5858899 - 05/13/13 11:25 PM

There is a setscrew on the cap on the other end. I have to grind down an allen wrench to make it reach, might be worth a try. There is very little rust on the shafts. I would like to get at the bearings to clean.

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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5858900 - 05/13/13 11:26 PM

One other trick that has worked for me a few times with stuck bolts is to try and tighten them up just a tiny bit and then see if they will back out.

But if all else fails, take it to the Machine Shop! Had to do that with a couple mount parts on the Maynard Clark.


Edited by Datapanic (05/13/13 11:27 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5859209 - 05/14/13 06:54 AM

Off this morning to get some left handed drill bits. My research last night points to this as maybe the answer and as some suggested. The set screw thread is 1/4 20 NC. I have a tap for that when I get the bugger out . . .

I have a friend who rebuilds vintage aircraft. He has a machine shop and I'm sure works with old rusted bolts a lot. I may give him a call.

Edited by turk123 (05/14/13 06:58 AM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5859221 - 05/14/13 07:07 AM Attachment (16 downloads)

I looked at the wiring and although frayed a bit and needing replacement, the circuit looked sound so . . . I plugged it in. The filament glowed red and the motor began turning ever so slowly. I slid the case off the back of the motor ( it was lose anyway) and see the fine gears inside. Reminds me of the old AC kitchen clocks, which it basically is.

Edited by turk123 (05/14/13 09:24 AM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5859222 - 05/14/13 07:07 AM Attachment (18 downloads)

Here is the inside

No sense taking this further apart. I just used a Q-tip to add sewing machine oil to the ever so slightly exposed gears. I need to clean it up a little also. Gears are now as silent as can be. Before I heard a "ticking" sound.

Edited by turk123 (05/14/13 07:10 AM)


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Greg Boynton
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5859765 - 05/14/13 12:19 PM

Thanks for sharing your project and all the great photo's. I've really enjoyed reading.

+1 on using heat and easyout. You can probably drive a small easyout into the allen head. If you cannot get it in far enough to bite, a cobalt drillbit will easily drill the setscrew. One nice thing about aluminum is it will expand a lot to help get the screws loose when you heat it.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Greg Boynton]
      #5861064 - 05/14/13 10:10 PM

Quote:

Thanks for sharing your project and all the great photo's. I've really enjoyed reading.

+1 on using heat and easyout. You can probably drive a small easyout into the allen head. If you cannot get it in far enough to bite, a cobalt drillbit will easily drill the setscrew. One nice thing about aluminum is it will expand a lot to help get the screws loose when you heat it.




I tried the heat on it, but the problem is the hex head is rounded. I'm beginning to think that Mr. Trombino has some slippage here sometime way back. My guess is he kept tightening them and rounded the setscrews. They just never felt tight. The other problem is there is no wat to get into that space to grab the setscrews.

I have some removers showing up from Amazon tomorrow. Will give the a shot. All this time I am soaking the setscrews in Blaster.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5861065 - 05/14/13 10:11 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

While I wait for the removers (I'll get the right name in a bit) I decided to remove some paint with my favorite remover of aircraft.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5861068 - 05/14/13 10:12 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

Fini

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5861070 - 05/14/13 10:12 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

And another item

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5861072 - 05/14/13 10:13 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

One more finis

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5861075 - 05/14/13 10:14 PM Attachment (23 downloads)

Another part

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rdandrea
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5861100 - 05/14/13 10:24 PM

It's fun to watch this labor of love. Please keep the pictures and status reports coming.

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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5861180 - 05/14/13 10:58 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks for sharing your project and all the great photo's. I've really enjoyed reading.

+1 on using heat and easyout. You can probably drive a small easyout into the allen head. If you cannot get it in far enough to bite, a cobalt drillbit will easily drill the setscrew. One nice thing about aluminum is it will expand a lot to help get the screws loose when you heat it.




I tried the heat on it, but the problem is the hex head is rounded. I'm beginning to think that Mr. Trombino has some slippage here sometime way back. My guess is he kept tightening them and rounded the setscrews. They just never felt tight. The other problem is there is no wat to get into that space to grab the setscrews.

I have some removers showing up from Amazon tomorrow. Will give the a shot. All this time I am soaking the setscrews in Blaster.




Did you remove the back side of the Clutch Assembly? You should be able to disassemble everything on that end of the RA Shaft so that all you have is the RA Shaft Housing, the Clock Drive Housing Backplate and the RA Shaft sticking out. There shouldn't be anything in the way for grabbing at those set screws.

It should look something like this (less the clock drive motor/bracket, worm gear, etc.):


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5861537 - 05/15/13 06:42 AM

Dan

Your thinking of the wrong set screws. The ones I am having problems with are the ones holding the clutch and gear to the shaft. They are between the clutch back and the RA shaft housing. They hold the clutch back to the shaft. Your picture is what I am trying to achieve: removal of the clutch back.

What I ordered is called an Irwin hex head multi-spline extractor set. Say that ten times. I hope it can grab the screw I drilled. I am also gonna try to find some cobalt left handed drill bits.

On the lighter side, I found a friend with a 9 inch lathe (everyone needs a friend with a lathe). I am going to try to turn the counterweights and take a few thousandths off and to smooth the surface for polishing.


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pbealo
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5861601 - 05/15/13 08:05 AM

That extractor set is now on my Amazon wish list. Thanks!
Peter B.


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dgreyson
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5861744 - 05/15/13 09:32 AM

Turk, I had the opposite problem with my Cave. I got the set screws out of my clutch plate, but I never could get the clutch assembly to move on the shaft, soaked it in blaster, etc etc. It was just frozen to the shaft. Finally gave up and took the drive housing base plate loose in order to clean and lubricate the rear polar shaft bearing.

Hopefully your clutch plate will come off easy once you have the set screws extracted.

Let me know if you need any brass thumbscrews, for the finder rings or drive housing cover, I ordered several boxes of them from McMaster Carr and the jam nuts as well and have some extra ones left over.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5861960 - 05/15/13 11:40 AM

Boy! That's not encouraging news. I spend three days getting the setscrews out only to find the clutch plate seized on the shaft. It is 1 1/2 inches in diameter. A block of wood and a large hammer should make it move.

I am wondering what holds the shaft from moving into the motor housing side? There is a gap of about a 1/4" between the collar on the clutch backing plate and the housing plate. Shouldn't the shaft move enough to close that gap? If I take off the clutch plate backer, should the shaft slide out the other end? Mine does not move now.


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chuck52
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5861983 - 05/15/13 11:53 AM

Turk,
I had the same problem too with a stuck clutch plate.No amount of prying would break it free.Finally resorted to a 3 jaw puller used in automotive work.Sounds terrible but it did the job easily and without bending or breaking anything.I was actually suprised how little effort it took to pull it off with the puller yet it was so stubborn with other methods.Just a thought.


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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5861984 - 05/15/13 11:54 AM

Got it on which set screw you're talking about now I've seen the clutch plate still stuck sometimes even after that set screw is removed - if the clutch plate was ever loose and that set screw gouged the RA shaft, it'll make pulling the clutch plate off a little difficult.

Once you get the clutch plate back and the housing plate off, there are only 4 more set screws to go! These are on the bearings and you need to shorten the end of an allen wrench so it can get to them inside the ra housing. Then, the shaft should be free to slide out.


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dgreyson
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5862050 - 05/15/13 12:28 PM

The front and rear bearings hold the polar shaft in place with setscrews.

I suppose if you take the front bearing setscrews loose you might be able to press the rear bearing out of the mount but it would not be easy. I've seen others drill a hole in the housing to reach the setscrew. When it's filled and painted, thats invisible. the front one you can just cut an allen wrench so its short enough to fit, but the baseplate is in the way at the back if the clutch is stuck.

The bearings are still available if you mangle one trying to press it out, but go for 50 dollars or so I think.


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dgreyson
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5862066 - 05/15/13 12:37 PM

Quote:

The front and rear bearings hold the polar shaft in place with setscrews.

I suppose if you take the front bearing setscrews loose you might be able to press the rear bearing out of the mount but it would not be easy. I've seen others drill a hole in the housing to reach the setscrew. When it's filled and painted, thats invisible. the front one you can just cut an allen wrench so its short enough to fit, but the baseplate is in the way at the back if the clutch is stuck.

The bearings are still available if you mangle one trying to press it out, but go for 50 dollars or so I think.



P.S. If you decide to go Armageddon on it and drill an access hole for the rear set screws, do it on the bottom side where you wont see it once its back together. Important point.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5862151 - 05/15/13 01:05 PM

OK, so there is one more bearing inside the housing. Good.

I just bought some cobalt drill bits to tackle the setscrew. I need to drill a small hole into one of the set screws for the multi spline extractor to get a bite.

I like the idea off a puller to get the plate off. Hopefully I won't need it.

Just picked up some new set screws to replace the one's I am mangling. See! I'm being positive that they will come off.

Thanks to all for the suggestions!


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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5862203 - 05/15/13 01:22 PM

Heat the set screws. You can use a soldering iron to get them good and hot without the risk of using a torch. It's amazing what a little thermal cycling will do to break a stuck bolt free. It also will allow the penetrating oil to work do into the threads. An old trick that really does work is to melt candle wax into the threads and heat up the bolt or nut. It will work down into the threads and lubricate them.

- Dave


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #5862939 - 05/15/13 07:01 PM

Got-them!!!!!

The set screws are out / clutch back plate is loose!

How it was done and Film and pictures at 11:00. Wife wants to go eat!


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5863262 - 05/15/13 09:48 PM Attachment (10 downloads)

I took lots of pictures of the wiring knowing I had to put this together one day. Here are a few.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5863264 - 05/15/13 09:48 PM Attachment (10 downloads)

Wiring two . . .

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5863265 - 05/15/13 09:49 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

So, here is the bugger that is stuck like all get out.

Edited by turk123 (05/15/13 09:50 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5863280 - 05/15/13 09:55 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

So I used almost all of your techniques. I soaked in blaster. I heated the setscrew up this time to very hot. and let it cool. Added more blaster, heated it up again. I bought some cobalt bits. I put the whole thing on my drill press and used the 5/16" cobalt bit under a lot of pressure. It seemed to go nowhere. Of course I was halfway into the setscrew from the previous day. It was slow going until I got a small hole about an 1/8" deep. I tried one of these new bad boys.

Edited by turk123 (05/15/13 10:08 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5863287 - 05/15/13 09:58 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

I could not get it to bite into the metal. I took it off the drill press and used a new cobalt bit and started drilling again. It seems as if the center of these setscrews are very hard steel. As I got through the 1/4" center, the bit took off and drilled all the way to the shaft. I heated the aluminum around the setscrew. I used the appropriate extractor to get it out. It bit easily into the deeper hole. Turned right out.

I drilled into the soft top of the second setscrew, used the extractor, and out it came also. Very easy.

Edited by turk123 (05/15/13 10:09 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5863291 - 05/15/13 10:00 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

Here is the irwin kit I bought from Amazon

Multi-spline Ext Set size range 1/8" to 7/8" 25 pieces. $64

Edited by turk123 (05/15/13 10:04 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5863293 - 05/15/13 10:03 PM Attachment (20 downloads)

I took off the three screws holding the housing backplate. Added some blaster to the shaft and clutch backplate and it began to move.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5863298 - 05/15/13 10:07 PM

The very end of the shaft has mushroomed (probably from somebody beating on it : ) so the clutch back plate has not come off completely. Need to sand down the end of the shaft where it is hanging up to get it off.

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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5863577 - 05/16/13 12:22 AM

Quote:

Here is the irwin kit I bought from Amazon

Multi-spline Ext Set size range 1/8" to 7/8" 25 pieces. $64




I'm going to get one of those too - they seem to be better than left-handed drill bits and aren't going to break very easily.


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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5863584 - 05/16/13 12:25 AM

Is that blue paint brushed on? What a mess!

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5863588 - 05/16/13 12:28 AM

Quote:

Is that blue paint brushed on? What a mess!




Yep. It looks like as rust started on the steel parts of the scope it got a coat of light blue paint.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5863631 - 05/16/13 01:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Here is the irwin kit I bought from Amazon

Multi-spline Ext Set size range 1/8" to 7/8" 25 pieces. $64




I'm going to get one of those too - they seem to be better than left-handed drill bits and aren't going to break very easily.




The amazon reviews said that these are far superior to the left handed bits and the extractors for screws. I agree. These are bullet proof. One tip though. After inserting the spline, tap it several times with a hammer to set it. Also, follow the instructions. Use the drill bit recommended for the spline.


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Greg Boynton
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5863726 - 05/16/13 03:16 AM

Good job! Those fluted extractors are excellent. I just replaced the track rollers on my bulldozer undercarriage. Had to extract 31 broken grade 8 bolts. Used exactly the same method, but on a larger scale. Drill, heat to cherry red, then drive in the extractor and turn quickly before the surrounding metal cools. I found I could use them about 10 times on hard bolts before the flute edges got too chipped and wouldn't bite.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Greg Boynton]
      #5863936 - 05/16/13 09:00 AM Attachment (22 downloads)

I trimmed down an allen wrench to fit inside the end of the RA assembly and got the setscrews out (two).

How do I get the collar off? It won't budge. It seems like it turns a 1/2" back and forth, but does not spin all the way around and certainly doesn't want to slide off.


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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5864001 - 05/16/13 09:27 AM

That's not a collar - that's the actual Sealmaster Bearing. with the set screws removed on both ends, you should be able to bop the RA Shaft out now using a rubber mallet. Watch out for gouges like the one in the photo because they may prevent it from sliding out all the way. I think it's easier to bop the top end of the shaft. A little WD40 in there between the shaft and the bearing might help too. Sometimes, the bearing will come out with the shaft when you're doing this.

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Escher
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5864270 - 05/16/13 11:40 AM

Awesome thread - I'm watching and green with envy - its going to be a beautiful scope when you are done...

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dgreyson
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5864576 - 05/16/13 01:32 PM

Glad you got the clutch plate off Turk, I might give mine another try next time I need to go in there and see if it will come off. All my setscrews were fine with an allen wrench, I just couldnt get the clutch plate to move in any direction, it was frozen to the shaft and I didnt want to chance warping it trying to force it off.

I was dubious about Cave using telephone wire to drive the dec motor, but it's rated for the voltage and current being used and would be ok as long as the insulation is in good shape. Being me, I replaced it with 600v stranded wire bundled in heat shrink tubing and that works just as well with a little extra margin of safety.


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terraclarke
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5864940 - 05/16/13 04:02 PM

I can't believe how much you have accomplished thus far in such a short time.

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pbealo
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5865511 - 05/16/13 06:39 PM

I'm with Terra! You make the rest of us, especially me, look like turtles!

Peter B.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: pbealo]
      #5865765 - 05/16/13 08:11 PM

Well, my wife is wondering why I'm missing in action. I do enjoy working on the scopes. It is a real challenge especially if something gets broke. There are no replacement parts on the shelf.

It is my birthday tomorrow. We're headed to Pittsburgh's Imax for the new Star trek 3D movie. I'm taking the day off.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5865885 - 05/16/13 09:13 PM

Quote:

Glad you got the clutch plate off Turk, I might give mine another try next time I need to go in there and see if it will come off. All my setscrews were fine with an allen wrench, I just couldnt get the clutch plate to move in any direction, it was frozen to the shaft and I didnt want to chance warping it trying to force it off.

I was dubious about Cave using telephone wire to drive the dec motor, but it's rated for the voltage and current being used and would be ok as long as the insulation is in good shape. Being me, I replaced it with 600v stranded wire bundled in heat shrink tubing and that works just as well with a little extra margin of safety.




I too was wondering about the thin wire. Mine will be a little more substantial also.

About the clutch plate. I am wondering if this area is susceptible to condensation or over the years a varnish of grease sliding down the shaft to this area. Everything is buggard. The bearing on the housing end was frozen and even now I am unable to pound the shaft out. It is now getting a soaking of Blaster and WD-40 from the other end and oozing down the shaft to the housing end. When I dump the oil mixture, it is a rusty brown color from rust on or in the bearings. I will keep soaking it tonight.


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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5866381 - 05/17/13 02:49 AM

The good news is that you're almost done with the dirty work! Once the disassembly, paint removal and clean up is done, the fun stuff begins - painting and putting it all back together again!

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5866584 - 05/17/13 08:16 AM

Well, after soaking both ends in Blaster and WD-40, I am getting to the problem. The Sealmaster bearings that sit on top of the roller bearings and looks like a collar, appear to be frozen to the bearing below. I removed the two set screws from the bearing on the side closest to the motor housing and I am using a rubber mallet to hit the end of the shaft at this end. The shaft is now moving (ever so slightly, I stopped at a 1/4" of movement) but the bearings (on top, both ends) are not. The shaft is held by the bearing on the other end with two more set screws I have not removed yet. The shaft is sliding through this bearing even though the set screws are still in.

So I believe these top bearings on each end are rusted to the bearing below. Or they are press fit to each other.

Edit: It was brought to my attention that the what I am calling a bearing with the set screws still in, is actually a collar. Only one bearing at the other end.

I think my only course of action would be to drill the outside casing to allow an allen wrench access to the bearing that is still set screwed to the shaft. I tried making an even shorter allen wrench, but there is just not enough room to get a bite on the set screw. Freeing that would allow the shaft to come out exposing the bearings and possible make it easier to split them away from each other. Or, just clean them as they are and reinstall the shaft. Comments?

Edit: I read Datapanics restore again and it looks like you were able to make allen wrenches to get at this. I will try grinding another brand of wrench with a tighter radius curve in it.

Edited by turk123 (05/17/13 09:35 AM)


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dgreyson
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5866843 - 05/17/13 10:46 AM

Turk

The upper end has a press fit aluminum trim ring, If you havent taken it out already, removing that will give you more room. I used a thin knife tapped against the seam where the insert and mount are joined. Start at the bottom to hide any marring at the initial site. once you get it started, go all around to even it out. then if youre careful, its not hard to lever it out with two screwdrivers rocking it out on opposite sides. Hope you get it out.


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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5866895 - 05/17/13 11:12 AM

This might be a case where one of those arbor presses from HF tools might come in real handy!

-Tim.


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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5866970 - 05/17/13 11:58 AM

Quote:

Well, after soaking both ends in Blaster and WD-40, I am getting to the problem. The Sealmaster bearings that sit on top of the roller bearings and looks like a collar, appear to be frozen to the bearing below. I removed the two set screws from the bearing on the side closest to the motor housing and I am using a rubber mallet to hit the end of the shaft at this end. The shaft is now moving (ever so slightly, I stopped at a 1/4" of movement) but the bearings (on top, both ends) are not. The shaft is held by the bearing on the other end with two more set screws I have not removed yet. The shaft is sliding through this bearing even though the set screws are still in.

So I believe these top bearings on each end are rusted to the bearing below. Or they are press fit to each other.

Edit: It was brought to my attention that the what I am calling a bearing with the set screws still in, is actually a collar. Only one bearing at the other end.

I think my only course of action would be to drill the outside casing to allow an allen wrench access to the bearing that is still set screwed to the shaft. I tried making an even shorter allen wrench, but there is just not enough room to get a bite on the set screw. Freeing that would allow the shaft to come out exposing the bearings and possible make it easier to split them away from each other. Or, just clean them as they are and reinstall the shaft. Comments?

Edit: I read Datapanics restore again and it looks like you were able to make allen wrenches to get at this. I will try grinding another brand of wrench with a tighter radius curve in it.




I did go through a couple before I had one just the right length. You don't want to start bopping on the shaft until all 4 set screws are out - otherwise you risk them gouging the shaft and that'll make it even harder to get them apart.

Even with the set screws removed, 1/2 the time, I've had the shaft come out one end or the other with one of the bearings still attached.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5867031 - 05/17/13 12:29 PM

Quote:

Turk

The upper end has a press fit aluminum trim ring, If you havent taken it out already, removing that will give you more room. I used a thin knife tapped against the seam where the insert and mount are joined. Start at the bottom to hide any marring at the initial site. once you get it started, go all around to even it out. then if youre careful, its not hard to lever it out with two screwdrivers rocking it out on opposite sides. Hope you get it out.




Now that would make all the difference in the world. I'll give
that a try


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5867852 - 05/17/13 06:02 PM Attachment (20 downloads)

The aluminum ring on the end popped off easily after using the "Aircraft Paint remover" and tapping on it with a very thin blade screw driver and hammer.

Edited by turk123 (05/17/13 06:03 PM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5867856 - 05/17/13 06:02 PM Attachment (19 downloads)

Completely removed. The set screws are easily accessible now and should not be a problems.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5868001 - 05/17/13 07:40 PM

Made another short allen wrench and was able to take out the two set screws. I laid the whole thing on the bench and gave it some good wraps with the rubber mallet. The shaft shot right out the other end. No binding at all.

The RA assembly has two bearings that are the same at each end. Pollard 1140 cg - made in England. I looked them up and they are self lubricating bearings and are sealed. The description says they are good for side loads. So I do not have sealmaster bearings in this unit. These are very substantial. I took pictures but have not processed them yet. I will later.


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dgreyson
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5868049 - 05/17/13 07:57 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

I thought that would do it. Good work Turk!
Paint the castings and mirror polish the Trim. They really pop if you do that. Did you ever get the Dec motor going on your Deluxe chrome Cave?


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terraclarke
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5868127 - 05/17/13 08:58 PM

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TOM

Terra


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dgreyson
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5868136 - 05/17/13 09:04 PM

what she said!

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5868139 - 05/17/13 09:05 PM

Quote:

I thought that would do it. Good work Turk!
Paint the castings and mirror polish the Trim. They really pop if you do that. Did you ever get the Dec motor going on your Deluxe chrome Cave?




I found an original motor, a 2 button box, gears, but missing the brass cover. I have not started this one yet. The chrome has to be sent out and right now it would take 6 weeks. If I wait till mid summer it will be 3 days. All those Harley folks getting chrome right now.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5868200 - 05/17/13 09:41 PM Attachment (19 downloads)

Here is the picture of the bearing. Pollard 1040 cg / england. These are identical on both ends.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5868201 - 05/17/13 09:42 PM Attachment (17 downloads)

Here is the picture when the shaft was finally free.

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Dave M
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5868344 - 05/17/13 10:43 PM

Quote:

Here is the picture of the bearing. Pollard 1040 cg / england. These are identical on both ends.




You must have taxes on your mind
looks like it says 1140 cg


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John Higbee
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5868517 - 05/18/13 12:07 AM

Great job, Tom - you may be setting the "land speed record" for a major Cave renovation! Learning a lot by following your progress...and (when you're done), what an article THIS will be for cave-astrola.com !

All the best, John


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Dave M]
      #5868955 - 05/18/13 08:34 AM Attachment (14 downloads)

I'm wondering if these bearings come apart. It looks like the seal has no split ring holding it on. It may be on the other side, but I'm not taking these out.

I just am wondering where all the fluid went when cleaning these and trying to get the shaft out. The inside of the whole housing is dry. I put them under air pressure to see if fluid would come out, but nothing did. I am gussing it was all on the shaft as it came out. These are sealed!


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5868958 - 05/18/13 08:36 AM Attachment (12 downloads)

The RA assembly need a new coat of paint. As much as I like light blue paint, his one has to go!

Edited by turk123 (05/18/13 08:36 AM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5868960 - 05/18/13 08:38 AM Attachment (11 downloads)

Aircraft remover did it's trick. I got a little ahead of myself and used a little "Mothers" aluminum polish on it. My question is "Why would anyone paint these ends?"

Edited by turk123 (05/18/13 08:40 AM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5868982 - 05/18/13 08:53 AM Attachment (21 downloads)

Here is where it is all happening.

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terraclarke
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5869125 - 05/18/13 10:48 AM

Wow! I love your laboratory/shop.

Terra


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5869542 - 05/18/13 03:13 PM

Quote:

Wow! I love your laboratory/shop.

Terra




Thanks Terra, It works for me. I need a few things, like a nice tool cabinet. The 5 drawer steel drawer is just too small for all the junk and tools I have. I have lots of pull out drawer containers that hold most supplies and parts and a floor to ceiling double door cabinet for most of my telescope parts. I have no where to paint though. All my telescopes are located near my workshop, but paint and optics don't go together.

Edited by turk123 (05/18/13 03:13 PM)


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starman876
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5869773 - 05/18/13 05:30 PM

Where do you sleep. I do not see a bed

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: starman876]
      #5869877 - 05/18/13 06:12 PM

Sleep? What's that?

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Steve_M_M
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5870729 - 05/19/13 03:52 AM

Quote:

Here is where it is all happening.




Great looking shop. Incredible work you are doing on the Cave. It will be beautiful when it is done.


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Masvingo
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Steve_M_M]
      #5871669 - 05/19/13 02:58 PM

Really enjoying this post, Turk. It's wonderful seeing the refurbishment process step by step. I wish I had your skill (and energy!)

James


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Masvingo]
      #5871882 - 05/19/13 04:23 PM

Quote:

Really enjoying this post, Turk. It's wonderful seeing the refurbishment process step by step. I wish I had your skill (and energy!)

James




I don't know about skill. Most of the "skills" I learned right here reading other's restorations. Now the energy is another story. You really have to want to do this. Getting your hands greasy, burned, dirty, oily, cut, smashed, stained, painted, scraped, and bloodied has to be a fun thing for you. The results are your goal and it gives you a great feeling of accomplishment. Try it sometimes, James.


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starman876
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5872698 - 05/19/13 10:26 PM

Sounds like you are working on a classic car

same results


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johnlynch
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: starman876]
      #5874199 - 05/20/13 04:36 PM

Incredible!

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Greg Eckes
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5875085 - 05/21/13 02:25 AM

Tom, I am going to clean and adjust my rings on my Cave 12.5" scope. 1. Are they attached to the tube with screws and nuts or only screws? 2. My rings allow the tube to be rotated. Do your rings rotate? 3. How did you get to rings apart? It looks like I have to take the whole scope apart to get them off.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Greg Eckes]
      #5875260 - 05/21/13 07:28 AM Attachment (21 downloads)

Quote:

Tom, I am going to clean and adjust my rings on my Cave 12.5" scope. 1. Are they attached to the tube with screws and nuts or only screws? 2. My rings allow the tube to be rotated. Do your rings rotate? 3. How did you get to rings apart? It looks like I have to take the whole scope apart to get them off.




Hi greg. Your rings are different than the Cassegrain's that do not rotate. Here is a picture of my 10" that does have the rotating rings. First you need to remove the support shafts running from ring to ring. The outer ring comes off by loosening the Hex head (large lower nut in the picture. Loosen the hex head not the nut.) There are four of these on mine. The shining outer aluminum ring has a large enough gap after removing the screws, to slip off one of the ends. You would have to remove the aluminum tube end to get it off. The inner ring is held by the small screws with nuts on the inside (small screw upper picture). If you want to remove them from the tube, it is important to choose the shortest distance from their location to the end of the tube to slip them off. Use either powder or soap underneath the inner ring to get it to slip without marring the painted tube surface. They are machined to fit quite close to the tube and need to be carefully slid down to the tube end that has the end ring removed.

The most important part of all this is mark your rings for position on the tube. 1st ring, 2nd ring, which small screw holes line up with on the tube, front back of each ring. The holes that are drilled in the tube and or the rings are all different and not symmetrical in any way.Mark them with tape at first and then add marks to the inside of the rings on the metal for alignment later (I use a hole punch to make marks especially, if you are going to polish or paint the rings causing you to cover any marks you've made).

Edited by turk123 (05/21/13 07:28 AM)


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5875264 - 05/21/13 07:34 AM Attachment (19 downloads)

You can see the gap between the inner and outer ring. There should be a white teflon or plastic piece that contacts the inner ring and allows it to slip. You can see it under the large hex screw in the picture. The hex screw is there to adjust the gap between inner and outer rings. The nut is used to lock your adjustment in place.

Edited by turk123 (05/21/13 07:38 AM)


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dgreyson
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5875809 - 05/21/13 12:47 PM

You know, as long as you have the tube standing on end, all you really need to do is back out the teflon plugs and you can take it off as a complete cage assy without messing with the connection rods at all. McMaster Carr has Teflon rod if any of the plugs are worn bad.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5878946 - 05/22/13 07:46 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

Here is the large shaft as it came out of the housing very early on.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5878954 - 05/22/13 07:48 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

I used the aircraft remover to remove all aircraft paint from it and then soaked it with rust remover. I then began wet sanding it.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5878960 - 05/22/13 07:52 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

I was able to get it real smooth by continuing to sand with 220 then 600 grit wet sandpaper using the rust remover instead of water. There are still pits and scratches from the counter weights but some are very deep. Most of the damage will be covered by the weights. There are two weights, one 38 lbs. the other about 23 lbs. That's over 60 lbs. !

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5878991 - 05/22/13 08:10 PM Attachment (17 downloads)

Here are the counter weights. I removed all the paint (3 layers) I de-rusted them, and I wire brushed and sanded them. They just are not going to be what I want. They are pitted with rust (the rust is gone but the pits remain) and need about .005" taken off all sides to get them smooth again. I took them to a friend who has a nine inch lathe. We could not get them to quite fit in the chuck and he said he may have a better way to do this.

We took a ride to the Youngstown airport were my friend Ted had worked for 30 years as an airplane mechanic. He had a friend Rob that is a master machinist. At this location they have a Bridgeport milling machine. What I believe he is proposing is to lay the weight flat and mill off the .005" without turning them. He said he could get a smooth surface without the rough milling grooves that Cave's lathe left in the steel. I believe the curve surface will be done on a much larger lathe than my friend had, and it's surface will also be without the rough grooves.

While there I got to sit in a 34 million dollar corporate jet (one of 7 being worked on in their hanger). I think I'm in good hands.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5879002 - 05/22/13 08:17 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

Rob pointed out as he looked at the larger weight, that he could see they tuned it it two steps. If you look closely in the picture, you can see a light area and a darker area on the curved surface of the larger weight. Rob even found the chuck marks left on the outside edge on both sides. "Not the best machining", was his comment, "But probably good enough for the job they do."

I will get pictures when I go back. I was so engrossed in looking at all the planes and engines being worked on, that I didn't get out my phone to take any pictures.


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chuck52
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5879118 - 05/22/13 09:32 PM

Hi Turk,
Great work you are doing and Im really enjoying the rebuild.Some may speak up about this but in the past I have mounted the weights on a piece of bar stock appropriate to their bore(1 1/2 in your case)tightened down the setscrew and was able to turn all faces of the counterweight in one chucking.The counterweights I turned where a little smaller but it might work in your friends 9 inch lathe.What is the diameter of the weights? Again, just a thought.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: chuck52]
      #5879222 - 05/22/13 10:39 PM

Hi Chuck

We thought of that but it would not be exactly centered. There is a little slop in the center hole. The chuck was a 1/16" too large to fit in the hole. The other solution was available and I think much better, so we went with it. Good idea though.


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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5879939 - 05/23/13 10:35 AM

Wow Tom, with each new post you put up about this project I am more amazed. You are making it like new! Absolutely beautiful, meticulous work. That diamond in the rough is certainly becoming a beautiful gem.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5879999 - 05/23/13 11:12 AM

Quote:

Wow Tom, with each new post you put up about this project I am more amazed. You are making it like new! Absolutely beautiful, meticulous work. That diamond in the rough is certainly becoming a beautiful gem.




Thanks Terra. As my wife says, " Are you obsessing on your telescope again?".


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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5880004 - 05/23/13 11:14 AM

Yeah, even if you COULD hold something that big in a 9" lathe, you'd have problems with chattering at that diameter of steel.

This is why I love wrinkle black paints, though!

-Tim.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: tim53]
      #5880026 - 05/23/13 11:26 AM

Quote:

Yeah, even if you COULD hold something that big in a 9" lathe, you'd have problems with chattering at that diameter of steel.

This is why I love wrinkle black paints, though!

-Tim.




Hi Tim

I'm going to experiment with wrinkle black for the finder rings and assorted hardware. I just wanted the counter weights to be shiny as shown in the catalog.

Question about paint. It says it has to go on heavy. Do you have to spray the entire part (example: finder rings inside and out) for the wrinkle to look even? Maybe you could give me some pointers.

Edited by turk123 (05/23/13 11:26 AM)


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terraclarke
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5880089 - 05/23/13 12:04 PM

Quote:

Here are the counter weights. I removed all the paint (3 layers) I de-rusted them, and I wire brushed and sanded them. They just are not going to be what I want. They are pitted with rust (the rust is gone but the pits remain) and need about .005" taken off all sides to get them smooth again. I took them to a friend who has a nine inch lathe. We could not get them to quite fit in the chuck and he said he may have a better way to do this.

We took a ride to the Youngstown airport were my friend Ted had worked for 30 years as an airplane mechanic. He had a friend Rob that is a master machinist. At this location they have a Bridgeport milling machine. What I believe he is proposing is to lay the weight flat and mill off the .005" without turning them. He said he could get a smooth surface without the rough milling grooves that Cave's lathe left in the steel. I believe the curve surface will be done on a much larger lathe than my friend had, and it's surface will also be without the rough grooves.

While there I got to sit in a 34 million dollar corporate jet (one of 7 being worked on in their hanger). I think I'm in good hands.




Hi Tom,

Yup, you can see the match lines on each weight where they had to flip and re-chuck the weights. Still a nice job and I love the nice chamfered edge they put on them. It would be a shame in a way to loose any of that. Those tool marks after all are inherent in the artifact. You could also chuck them back up in the lathe and turn them with emory strips instead of a cutting tool. You wouldn't get any chatter and it would still remove most of the corrosion and bring them to a nice polish without removing the tool marks. The Japanese have a Zen term for those little imperfections that we see- "shibui" the beauty or aesthetic there of, resulting from repeated use or inherent in the making of a simple object. I don't know if I would want to take that away. Just my feeling on it.


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DAVIDG
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5880100 - 05/23/13 12:10 PM Attachment (21 downloads)

I used wrinkle black all the time. You want to spray on three coats, a few minutes apart. Spray the parts that will be mounted on the scope close to each other at the same time since the humidity and the air temperature will effect the exact amount of wrinkling and by doing them together they will match. Here is a shot of the focuser for my Cave that I restored with wrinkled black
If you let the parts air dry it takes a few days for the paint to get real hard. You can cure them in an oven to quicken things up. I use my gas grill so as not to smell up the house and tick off my better half since her fondness of her kitchen is equal too or greater then my fondness of my scopes.

- Dave


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Datapanic
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #5880194 - 05/23/13 01:01 PM

I used a practice piece for the wrinkle paint just to get a feel on how thick the coats need to be and the time between them. David is not kidding about the humidity and temperature! The instructions for the Eastwood paint I used said 3 minutes between coats, but I had best results at 2.5 minutes, probably because of the lower humidity and warmer temps.

The parts do need time for the wrinkle to setup and to dry.

For finder rings, I made a jig out of some scrap 1/8" rod about a foot long that I clamped to my paint box platform. I put the top adjuster hole of the finder ring through the rod and was able to get to all sides with the paint that way.


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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5880540 - 05/23/13 03:36 PM

The BBQ for drying is a great idea. I use a toaster oven for the small parts. I have an electric oven for larger parts, but its 220v and the plug in my garage is too high on the wall and I don't want to use an extension cord (and do t have one with the right socket anyway).

About an hour in the toaster oven at 150F does a good job on the small parts.

Tim


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dgreyson
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: tim53]
      #5881470 - 05/24/13 12:57 AM

You can fill in the pits with layers of primer and sanding and then paint it without any milling at all if you wanted.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5882755 - 05/24/13 05:29 PM Attachment (17 downloads)

OK, well we have a lot of miscellaneous parts including the motor housing and cover and setting circles. Same procedure using the aircraft remover (did I say I really like this stuff?) Painting on one coat, scraping with a very thin paint scraper, then do it all again using a brass wire brush to get the fine stuff. Wash the part is soap and water and your done.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5882760 - 05/24/13 05:31 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

Housing Plate

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5882762 - 05/24/13 05:32 PM Attachment (20 downloads)

Final result!

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5882766 - 05/24/13 05:34 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

I have been looking forward to this guy. It means I'm getting down to a few large parts to finish and I'm almost done with paint removal. Here is is as it came from the auction.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5882770 - 05/24/13 05:35 PM Attachment (20 downloads)

Here are the legs on the bench:

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5882777 - 05/24/13 05:37 PM Attachment (18 downloads)

This is a large heavy piece. This is not aluminum but steel.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5882789 - 05/24/13 05:44 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

Same procedure to get the paint off. Paint is coming off even easier than the aluminum.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5882790 - 05/24/13 05:44 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

Almost there. Looks pretty good.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5882838 - 05/24/13 06:24 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

Paint is gone and it is washed down with soap and water.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5882841 - 05/24/13 06:26 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

Tube is not quite round at the top. There is a bit of slop between the cap and the tube. I wonder if it was banged in to make the cap fit tighter. It does help.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5882843 - 05/24/13 06:27 PM Attachment (22 downloads)

Here is a taste of the assembly!

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Mirzam
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5883121 - 05/24/13 09:23 PM

Looks great! I think the bearing is on the wrong side of the pier though.

JimC


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Mirzam]
      #5883154 - 05/24/13 09:46 PM

Quote:

Looks great! I think the bearing is on the wrong side of the pier though.

JimC




Technicalities!


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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5883184 - 05/24/13 10:08 PM

Yep, the clock cover will hit the pier above a few degrees latitude!

-Tim.


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: tim53]
      #5883200 - 05/24/13 10:21 PM

Quote:

Yep, the clock cover will hit the pier above a few degrees latitude!

-Tim.




Rookie mistake!


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5883596 - 05/25/13 08:41 AM Attachment (21 downloads)

Started on one of the legs this morning. These are a bit tedious with all the struts, but after about an hour, the first leg was paint free.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5883597 - 05/25/13 08:42 AM Attachment (20 downloads)

One down, two to go.

Edited by turk123 (05/25/13 08:43 AM)


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starman876
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5883641 - 05/25/13 09:29 AM

I need to get some of that aircraft remover stuff. Where did you get it. That stuff is fantastic.

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dgreyson
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: starman876]
      #5883784 - 05/25/13 11:01 AM

I lile it better than sandblasting but it burns my hands thru butyl gloves for some reason. havent found anything it wont budge yet.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5883812 - 05/25/13 11:25 AM

Autozone carries it.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5887698 - 05/27/13 07:16 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

Did a little work this memorial day. I finished up the other two legs.

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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5887712 - 05/27/13 07:21 PM Attachment (17 downloads)

This is also kind of a milestone. I now have finished removing paint from all the major parts (focuser x2 is still left.) I love my favorite "aircraft remover" but it is time I set it aside.

Anyway, my dog Maddie is driving me crazy to play with her new toy and I guess I better go play. Here's Maddie my buddy. She is a Golden doodle.

(Pardon me moderator )


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tim53
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: turk123]
      #5887713 - 05/27/13 07:21 PM

Looking better every day!!

Tim


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terraclarke
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: tim53]
      #5887819 - 05/27/13 08:10 PM

Great work Tom. Love the astronomy mascot, I have one of those too, two actually.

Terra


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Da Bear
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5887826 - 05/27/13 08:13 PM

Tom,

I sandblasted my Cave legs, then had them powdercoated. It worked out well, as the powdercoat was very hard and chip resistant --but not chip proof.

What a great thread, keep posting.

Da Bear


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turk123
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: Da Bear]
      #5887892 - 05/27/13 08:49 PM

Quote:

Tom,

I sandblasted my Cave legs, then had them powdercoated. It worked out well, as the powdercoat was very hard and chip resistant --but not chip proof.

What a great thread, keep posting.

Da Bear




We have a powder coating shop here and I really thought about doing some parts with them. The only problem I found is that they have limited colors. My friend who restore airplanes uses an acid etching on aluminum and then a two part epoxy primer. The work he does is well beyond anything I've ever seen. He rebuilt a fairchild 40's plane that became the "model" of all restorations. I did the photography for it when he finished.

Here is a link to the pictures:

http://www.cave-astrola.com/www.elmhurstprop.com/fairchild/index.html


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Greg Eckes
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Re: Elli Buk Cave 10" Cassegrain new [Re: dgreyson]
      #5888256 - 05/28/13 01:28 AM

Thanks Tom. The pictures help. After studying your Cass. pictures I realized that they were not the rotating type.

Greg