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Equipment Discussions >> Classic Telescopes

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BarrySimon615
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"Classic" Scope or "Mutt"?
      #6041496 - 08/23/13 09:31 AM Attachment (69 downloads)

If a scope is put together completely from "spare" parts that were all originally parts of other "classic" scopes, is the new "Frankenscope" a classic too, or is simply a "Mutt"? I know what the answer is to me, but I am curious to hear what others think.

Pictured below is my "modified" Unitron. Converted from a photo equatorial Model 145 Unitron to a similar scope but one featuring an Edmund 3" f/11 objective. The shorter tube works much better with the #142 mount. (The original objective was shot, scratched, etc., etc. and needed replacement). Many, I suppose, would consider this scope a "ba@%&*d".

Barry Simon


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terraclarke
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: BarrySimon615]
      #6041538 - 08/23/13 10:00 AM

Beautiful scope Barry. In my opinion, its classic in every way.

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mustgobigger
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Loc: Michigan
Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: terraclarke]
      #6041577 - 08/23/13 10:20 AM

Still a classic....but....not a unitron
145.
If its put together with all
Original replacement parts...then its
A 145.....just my opinion.


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R Botero
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/02/09

Loc: Kent, England
Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: BarrySimon615]
      #6041623 - 08/23/13 10:45 AM

I like it Barry! And it looks very well on the 145 mount. Why not call it an Edmuntron?

Roberto


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amicus sidera
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: R Botero]
      #6041636 - 08/23/13 10:50 AM

Since it now has a superior objective, I would still consider it a classic.



Fred



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Chuck Hards
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: R Botero]
      #6041646 - 08/23/13 10:55 AM

Quote:

Why not call it an Edmuntron?




Unimund?


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actionhac
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #6041654 - 08/23/13 11:00 AM

I would say its a classic because it is assembled from classic parts.
I build telescopes from parts and like to stick to classic parts and accessories, and I usually call my creations a "Junk Yard Dog" and typically I think they are better than what can be purchased because mine have a little rattlesnake in'em. Although your's is much to pretty Barry, how about "Hot Rod" a hand made finely tuned hybrid.

Robert


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hottr6
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: BarrySimon615]
      #6041672 - 08/23/13 11:11 AM

Not only a "classic", but a "classy classic".

I hotrod vintage cars and motorcycles using NOS or used parts, and stuff that I fabricate myself, and the only folk who condemn me are the anally-retentive nut-and-bolt freaks.

Don't worry about what other people think. Opinions are worth nothing.


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t.r.
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: hottr6]
      #6041678 - 08/23/13 11:16 AM

Looks like a fine classic to me!

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orion61

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Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: t.r.]
      #6041787 - 08/23/13 12:21 PM

She's kinda like my Puppy, not a bure breed, but I love Her with all my heart!

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Mike E.
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Reged: 01/26/10

Loc: Moonstone Observatory
Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: orion61]
      #6042918 - 08/24/13 03:44 AM

It's a "One Of A Kind"

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orion61

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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: Mike E.]
      #6042947 - 08/24/13 04:18 AM

BTW you did a nice job creating a functional scope.
I see nothing at all wrong with it.


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roscoe
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: orion61]
      #6043146 - 08/24/13 08:24 AM

Barry
Nice rebuild! As I 'curmudgeoned' in another thread, practically all of our rebuilds, repairs, and restorations, involve more modern materials, finishes, and the like, so where is the line between original and beautifully useable?
What you have done, in my view, is take a bunch of vintage parts and created here a beautiful, useable, classic-to-the-eye scope!
Russ


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dgreyson
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: orion61]
      #6043164 - 08/24/13 08:39 AM

I'm likely more picky as I collect other technological artifacts. If it came from the unitron factory as a 142, then it's an "original 142", if it was put togather from parts, then it's not an original 142 but as long as all the parts are from 142's it's a "restored 142". the key concept is: is it exactly as it came from the Factory?

if the tube was cut shorter and a non unitron objective put in, it's not a Unitron 142 any more. Its an f11 telescope made from Unitron parts.

Also, unless Unitron specifially sold Unitron kits intended for you to you assemble yourself, if you made it yourself from unrelated new old stock or used spare parts from scratch, then you have an obligation to disclose that to any buyers.

a made from parts scope is most definitely not an original 142 as it never came as is from the factory. It is however, an Authentic 142 paradoxical as that may seem.

An Original is that from which a copy, reproduction, or translation is made according to Merrim-Webster.

None of this answers whether its a classic telescope or not. Classic is a little more fluid a concept.

The word classic generally means something that is a perfect example of a particular style, something of lasting worth or with a timeless quality. So yes indeed, your telescope is a classic telescope: it's a classic f11 refractor in the style of a Unitron. Classic cars have a particular style of lasting worth and timeless quality indeed.

People confuse Classic with Vintage or antique. They are not the same.

The handful of pennies in your pocket are all classic pennys. They may or may not be vintage pennys depending on how old they are. But if you made them yourself, they are not original pennys, they are conterfit pennies. It dosent matter that you made it from the same parts the Treasury did. It didnt come from the treasury as a Penny.

You have an awesome telescope, I like it a lot. its worth a good chunk of change. Nothing unworthy or less valuable about it. Enjoy it and use it and dont worry so much about labels and what anyone else thinks. It's a classic telescope.

Edited by dgreyson (08/24/13 09:28 AM)


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roscoe
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: dgreyson]
      #6043427 - 08/24/13 11:39 AM

Greg,
Good way to look at it!

I repair, restore, resharpen, and regularly use, classic, vintage, and antique hand woodworking tools.......and the same questions plague tool guys. Often, it's a question of are they going to live in a tool cabinet or on a shelf?
Same with scopes.....
R


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labmand
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: roscoe]
      #6043632 - 08/24/13 01:34 PM

Quote:

Greg,
Good way to look at it!

I repair, restore, resharpen, and regularly use, classic, vintage, and antique hand woodworking tools.......and the same questions plague tool guys. Often, it's a question of are they going to live in a tool cabinet or on a shelf?
Same with scopes.....
R



I have one in my living room, not so much for display as
for easy access out the door to put to work. I love looking
at them but not as much as using them, we could have a
Showroom Classic's and another Working Classics forum.
Sometimes the mutt's are man's best friend.


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Sean Cunneen
Let Me Think
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: labmand]
      #6043850 - 08/24/13 03:59 PM Attachment (9 downloads)

I prefer "Homage". I think assembling a scope out of parts outside of the factory is different from an original scope. Here is a photo of my 1946 Brandon, an homage. The objectives were not to my knowledge sold in a Brandon tube with focuser. Mine is in a hastings tube with a Modern brass Crawford focuser...

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orion61

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Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: Sean Cunneen]
      #6044160 - 08/24/13 08:08 PM

It's one Durn sure way you can get All the features YOU want
A+


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Rich (RLTYS)Moderator
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: orion61]
      #6044788 - 08/25/13 08:31 AM

Since the scope is all classic parts it's truly a classic.

Rich (RLTYS)


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AllanDystrup
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: BarrySimon615]
      #6044897 - 08/25/13 10:10 AM Attachment (8 downloads)

I don't mind what you call it

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amicus sidera
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: Rich (RLTYS)]
      #6044914 - 08/25/13 10:21 AM

Quote:

Since the scope is all classic parts it's truly a classic.

Rich (RLTYS)




I agree; if the parts are all from the same general era, it's a classic.

Fred


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bremms
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #6044951 - 08/25/13 10:44 AM

Best telescope is one that gets used. A classic made better? easier to use, better eyepieces. I like classics, but I'm an ATM and engineer at heart. How can I make this better? Some scopes I do like to keep more original. It is fun to use a telescope as it was. Peering through a 6mm Huygens in a 200 plus year old refractor is pretty cool.

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AllanDystrup
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: AllanDystrup]
      #6044975 - 08/25/13 11:01 AM Attachment (4 downloads)

Btw. interesting active regions at the western rim on the sun this weekend ...

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BarabinoSr
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: AllanDystrup]
      #6045258 - 08/25/13 01:57 PM

Nice Unitron, Barry and definitely not a mutt.

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tim53
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: BarabinoSr]
      #6045296 - 08/25/13 02:25 PM

Well, they might be mutts, but they're purebred mutts!

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actionhac
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: tim53]
      #6045895 - 08/25/13 08:28 PM Attachment (8 downloads)

What do we call this type of scope?
It never was a production scope. It was assembled entirely from off the shelf parts back in the late 60's early 70's.
Its not a Frankenstein because the parts are not from corpses or donorscopes. Its not a mutt or purebred because it never had parents.
Not really a ATM scope because nothing is handmade.
Its just assembled from finished parts from makers who made parts and no finished telescopes.
Its like when you go out for dinner to a buffet, you are building your own dinner, it is not on the menu, it has no name. What should we call this type of telescope?


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labmand
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: actionhac]
      #6045959 - 08/25/13 08:57 PM

Quote:

What do we call this type of scope?
It never was a production scope. It was assembled entirely from off the shelf parts back in the late 60's early 70's.
Its not a Frankenstein because the parts are not from corpses or donorscopes. Its not a mutt or purebred because it never had parents.
Not really a ATM scope because nothing is handmade.
Its just assembled from finished parts from makers who made parts and no finished telescopes.
Its like when you go out for dinner to a buffet, you are building your own dinner, it is not on the menu, it has no name. What should we call this type of telescope?



I call it Sweet!


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rdandrea
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: actionhac]
      #6045974 - 08/25/13 09:04 PM

Quote:

What should we call this type of telescope?




An ATM project.


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madeline
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Loc: Bloomington, MN
Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: labmand]
      #6045991 - 08/25/13 09:11 PM

I agree, it is sweet

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tim53
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: madeline]
      #6046006 - 08/25/13 09:18 PM

I call my mutt The Kludgescope!

Here it is - a 6" f/10.3 Newtonian with a lumicon helical focuser, Optical Craftsmen finder and rings, and Losmandy rings holding a Mayflower 76 x 1200 guidescope. I made the rotating rings myself on a Harbor Freight mill, and the end rings on my Champion Blower and Forge 9L lathe. The dovetail "plates" are wood and 3/4" aluminum channel. Best 6" scope I've ever used. Here, the whole enchilada is sitting on my Tak NJP mount on a Nexstar tripod (since broken!). Usually, it lives on my Tak EM-10 mount, but without the guidescope.



-Tim.


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dgreyson
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: actionhac]
      #6046180 - 08/25/13 11:21 PM

Quote:

What do we call this type of scope?
It never was a production scope. It was assembled entirely from off the shelf parts back in the late 60's early 70's.
Its not a Frankenstein because the parts are not from corpses or donorscopes. Its not a mutt or purebred because it never had parents.
Not really a ATM scope because nothing is handmade.
Its just assembled from finished parts from makers who made parts and no finished telescopes.
Its like when you go out for dinner to a buffet, you are building your own dinner, it is not on the menu, it has no name. What should we call this type of telescope?




I'd call it if it would come to me. a Most excellent home made classic newtonian scope you have there. And Like Tims scope, thats how you get exactly what kind of scope you want. A scope you made yourself, assembled, did yourself is always the better scope no matter what the Coiners say they paid for theirs. It might have looser optics sure, but it's yours.


Edited by dgreyson (08/25/13 11:25 PM)


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dgreyson
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: AllanDystrup]
      #6046192 - 08/25/13 11:32 PM

Quote:

Btw. interesting active regions at the western rim on the sun this weekend ...


I've been fussing so much about the overcast skys at night I'd clean forgotten I can still look at the sun. Thanks for the heads up.

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bremms
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: dgreyson]
      #6046842 - 08/26/13 11:44 AM

The sky has been overcast or high clouds here in SC for a long time. My scopes are all sadly collecting dust. I could make 3x the scope rolling my own way back when. Love making my own parts. Back in the 40's 50's and 60's that's what you did. Those are classics.

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dgreyson
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: bremms]
      #6047465 - 08/26/13 06:11 PM

I will save you a seat on the Ark

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Chuck Hards
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: tim53]
      #6047639 - 08/26/13 08:17 PM

Quote:

I call my mutt The Kludgescope!



-Tim.




Your guidescope rings are dangerously on the small side.

Beautiful scope. In the Good Old Days, most Newts were parts mish-mashes. I'm getting all misty-eyed...


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BarrySimon615
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: Chuck Hards]
      #6047747 - 08/26/13 09:27 PM

MUTT =

My Unique Treasured Telescope .....at least that is the best I could do to turn "MUTT" into an acronym.

Barry Simon


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tim53
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: BarrySimon615]
      #6047767 - 08/26/13 09:36 PM

I *like*!

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starman876
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: tim53]
      #6048442 - 08/27/13 09:23 AM

Just think of the time you would have saved and not to mention cutting up a nice tube if you would have only asked me nicely for a replacement 142 lens. You would not be asking the question what is it now. You would have been showing us that very nice original 145 Uitron worth about $3000 or more. Cannot say what the value is now.

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terraclarke
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: starman876]
      #6049101 - 08/27/13 03:31 PM Attachment (3 downloads)

Here's my mutt: Unitron 140 tube and focuser, Unitron diagonal, Jaegers 78mmx1218mm objective, my aluminum cell, 9x50 Antares finder, Royal Astro solar projection kit, Orion rings, Agena dust cap, Vixen Polaris mount, Orion EQ-3 (modded) RA drive, Hands On Optics legs, Vixen accessory tray, Pep Boys Auto tray light.

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terraclarke
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: terraclarke]
      #6049108 - 08/27/13 03:33 PM Attachment (3 downloads)

And here's the purebred 140 (sans wooden accessory tray- I know, I know, "Drill the holes Terra!"):

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starman876
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: terraclarke]
      #6049162 - 08/27/13 04:05 PM

I do not have any mutts. Well, the 6" AP on the CGE mount. Maybe I will buy an AP mount to make it a purebred. I do have some ATM scopes that you could call mutts. However, we all know when we cross breed what we get. Astonomers that build strange looking contraptions and call them telescopes.

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BarrySimon615
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: starman876]
      #6049222 - 08/27/13 04:24 PM

Quote:

Just think of the time you would have saved and not to mention cutting up a nice tube if you would have only asked me nicely for a replacement 142 lens. You would not be asking the question what is it now. You would have been showing us that very nice original 145 Uitron worth about $3000 or more. Cannot say what the value is now.




This project was done back in 1997, not recently. "Cloudy Nights" did not exist then.

As it is, the Edmund objective is a better performer than the very nice Unitron objective I had in another Unitron 3" f/16 tube assembly. There are many advantages to the scope as it has been modified. With the shorter focal length it yields a wider field, the scope with shorter tube is better handled by the Unitron #142 mount, and it will get up to all the magnification I need.

As I have no plans on ever selling this tube assembly (or mount), it's resale value is irrelevant.

Note - I am not Unitron bashing. I am a Unitron fan. In addition I am the owner and moderator of the UnitronTelescopes Yahoo Group.

Barry Simon


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terraclarke
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: BarrySimon615]
      #6049247 - 08/27/13 04:38 PM

I love my mutt. Its not only one of my favorite scopes but also one of my best and the whole thing is made from odds and ends, nothing was scrapped or chopped (at least by me) to make it. Just like dogs, mutts are often better and more reliable than purebreds.

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starman876
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: terraclarke]
      #6049715 - 08/27/13 09:36 PM

Barry I understand. However with the proceeds from selling a real 145 you could have bought a Vixen 4" flourite which would have provided you with the views of a lifetime. I always look at the market value of what I have before I modify what I have and what I could buy with the proceeds to better satisfy my needs. This lesson I learned the hard way when I chopped up my almost new 1973 corvette because I wanted it to look like a ferarri. I still remember my friend saying "you know that is a $6000 car you are sawing up" Since then I have been very careful with my toys.

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terraclarke
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: starman876]
      #6050261 - 08/28/13 09:01 AM

Johann, you yourself said two weeks ago when one of these (a 3 inch Unitron photo-equatorial) went to the chop shop and was parted out that the parts and pieces were worth more than the whole; something like 3200 bucks is, I believe, the total sum that the sale brought according to your tally. So I really don't see how Barry has destroyed a valuable telescope. In fact, you acknowledged that you had a good objective for such, and tubes can be found; I got a 3 inch Unitron tube for a very modest price. So if Barry ever so desired, it seems to me that the scope could be put back together in original format fairly easily, or he could also part out all the original pieces and still get more that the complete scope would sell for- at least based on recent example. Just my thoughts.

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AllanDystrup
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Loc: Denmark
Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: terraclarke]
      #6050415 - 08/28/13 10:40 AM Attachment (5 downloads)

Here's another example of mixing and matching, using custom adapters (this is a non destructive / non irreversible way of customizing, modernizing / upgrading and cross-breeding vintage telescopes).

Today I received a UnihexA-T2 adapter from our good CN friend Xavier Debeerst; The adapter allows me to use the Unitron Unihex on all my telescopes, and to combine it with modern high quality components as for instance barlows and filters :


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starman876
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: terraclarke]
      #6050523 - 08/28/13 11:41 AM

Terra
I understand what you are saying. I just hate tearing apart anything classic and a Unitron OTA is high on that list. Barry does have a very nice looking scope.


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terraclarke
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: starman876]
      #6050821 - 08/28/13 02:26 PM



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terraclarke
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: AllanDystrup]
      #6050851 - 08/28/13 02:41 PM

Very Nice Allan. I machined a similar adapter for my Unihex so that it can be used in any 1.25 inch visual ba k. In a similar vane, yesterday I ordered a set of rings and a rail for my Sears 76mm F16 refractor so that it can be used in a modern driven GEM and on my beefed up Vixen Porta Mount II.

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AllanDystrup
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: terraclarke]
      #6051775 - 08/29/13 12:58 AM



Right Terra, using the best of your components, old as well as new, in a flexible and hence optimal way, for the best astronomical performance and experience (while still respectfully preserving 'the heritage') that's the road to take, IMHO.

Allan


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terraclarke
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Re: "Classic" Scope or "Mutt"? new [Re: AllanDystrup]
      #6052298 - 08/29/13 10:51 AM

Absolutely, its fun and its like increasing your number of telescopes as you change the configurations. Lest we forget, these are wonderful toys, play with them and enjoy them! Accessories and adapters are a great way of doing just that.

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