Anonymous
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I am looking very hard for M31 to see it for the first time and I just haven't found it, I really looked about 2 hours tonight and could not find it. I asume if I did it would be obvouis its not a star right? It should be a large kinda cotton ball of dim light? I'm still very new, I've never had the help of another person yet but I knew 2 constilations that is was between, I tryed to follow the stars to were I thought it would be and could not find it. The only thing I can think of it that there is to much light pollution here. I looking through the finder at first then I just looked through my eyepiece using a 25mm eyepiece that gave me a x25 view. I went back and forth so many times, didn't find anything. I did find a double star though :-) So I can't say it was a loss. Its just that finding nameless things on accident isn't as rewarding as knowing how to find your target. If anyone could give me some advice on finding deep space objects please do.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Don't give up! I looked for about 30 minutes before I found it for the first time. It turned out to be a faint smudge...but it was there. Now I check it every time and it takes less than a minute to find. Portland has a lot of light polution and it wasn't visible with the naked eye (at least not for me). If you have binoculars, I would recommend using them until you find it...then use the scope.
Even though it was dim and washed out, I still realized what exactly it was that I was seeing...our closest galaxy...and it gave me goose bumps.
Don't give up.
Tom
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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thanks for the encouragement, I've heard it discribed as a smuge before, but I never saw one. I was looking for anything that didn't look like a star. How dim was what you saw? I have street lights in my area, and one is almost under where m31 should be so I'm hoping that was most of my problem. Star hopping is hard! everything in the eyepiece is backward and there are so many stars in the scope compared to the eye.
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Diego
super member
Reged: 07/29/03
Posts: 179
Loc: Argentina South America
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Hello Chrisp, I know how frustrating it can be when you can't find an object. My first tries at M31 were also bad results. Once you get to know your way around the sky it will be much easier. Go to www.skyandtelescope.com and run their online skychart. It's the best guide I've had so far. Print out what ever part of the sky you want to observe.
Tip, try to find the great square of Pegasus, then on the top left vertex their should be three stars going up and to the left in an arc. Above the second star you will find M31. Hope my description is OK, since I'm in the southern hemisphere and I see it upside down...
I took the image out because it was way too big and I don't know how to make it smaller. For more maps of M31, read page two of the post "DSO what magnification?" from this same board.
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Diego
Celestron 80 mm f11.4
Oberwerk 20x90
6" f7.8 Reflector
Edited by Diego (10/10/03 07:02 AM)
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 6272
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
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Telrad finder charts for the Messier objects can be found at
http://www.astrohbg.org/messier.php
http://www.utahskies.org/deepsky/messier/charts/messierTelradFrameSet.html
http://www.astunit.com/tonkinsastro/messier/messchart.htm
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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that is the same constilation I was using to try to find it. I have been to skyandtelescope.com but never used there charts yet. I was using Starry Night
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I don't know what the viewing limitation is in my sky but your description would lead me to believe that those street lights are your problem. If you wait an hour or two and let M31 get more overhead, you'll probably have a much better opportunity to find it. Diego has given you a really good chart to help locate it.
Keep looking and good luck! Tom
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Echo
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/29/03
Posts: 3320
Loc: So Cal
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Hi,
Tom is right. Wait until it is fairly high up to try again. I used to wonder why all the hype because I had only viewed it low on the horizon from the front yard. At 9000 feet in a dark sky it is breathtaking. It went from a q-tip to a wash of glitter that filled the whole view. If you like galaxies, try for NGC 253 in Sculptor. It has a long mottled glow and is 1/2 a degree wide. Happy hunting!
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Queen of GOTO
Life is short.... get a massage!
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Here's a quick photo.
From bottom left to top right:
Beta, Mu, and Nu Andromedae--with M31 close to the right of Nu.
Bill in WI
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Victor Kennedy
Pooh-Bear
Reged: 05/22/03
Posts: 9837
Loc: Slovenia
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You probably need a trip to darker skies.
I was observing from my balcony last night, and spent about an hour trying to find M71. I know exactly where it is, and have found it before, but it was nowhere to be seen in my C8. I could clearly see the little asterism of stars close by, but no trace of M71. In the same session I had no trouble finding M27 and M92 nearby, but they are both a magnitude brighter. Poor little M71 at mag 8.5 was washed out in the city skyglow (assisted by the full moon). I know I can see dimmer objects from a darker site, because I have seen M32 and M110 no problem, even in a much smaller scope, and they're both much dimmer at mag 10.
Once you have seen an object like M31 from a good dark site, you will be able to see it from a poorer site because your eyes will know what you are looking for, where to look, and what it looks like.
At low light levels the eye is more sensitive to moving objects, and averted vision is more sensitive than direct vision, so for a dim object, it helps to move the scope around slightly. You eye will catch a slightly brighter patch than the backgound, but then when you look directly at it, it disappears. Look away, and there it is again.
My first reaction when this happened to me was that if something is this dim, what's the point of looking at it anyway. My second reaction was "Wow! I actually managed to see that!" Maybe it's like going on a fox hunt. At the end all they have to show for ther efforts is a tattered little rag of chewed-up fur, but at least they managed to catch it.
Disclaimer: I've never been on a fox hunt, and wouldn't if I was offered the chance. I'll stick to hunting photons.
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To err is human; to moo is bovine.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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yeah, lets leave the little foxes alone.
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Charles
Post Laureate
Reged: 06/12/03
Posts: 4111
Loc: Enterprise, AL
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The light pollution is more than likely the primary reason you can not see it but I have noticed that my 12" LX200 does not give me as good a view as does my 5" APO refractor. The Refractor has much better contrast than the SCT and I do believe that may play a factor in your viewing. I easily see M31 in my refractor but I often am dissappointed in viewing it through my SCT. I not sure but I believe the Newt suffers the same contrast problems as SCTs to some degree. Have you tried viewing with a UHC or any other light pollution filter?
Charles
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I haven't bought a light pollution filter yet but its near the top of my list of items to get. I think the only things I'd get before the filter is a 6.3mm eyepiece for planets and a x3 barlow. After those I want a filter. There are some that are broad band and others that are narrow and block even more light, dose anyone have an opinion about those?
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 39690
Loc: Phx, AZ
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My binoculars offer me the best views of M31. Before that I saw it in an 18" newtonian, and it was very bright. My SCT just does not do it justice; even from a dark sky site.
Bino's or very large dobs seems to be your best bet.
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Ron
NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
15X70 Obies
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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If you use a light pollution filter, use something similar to a broadband SkyGlow filter. A UHC or O-III filter will wipe out everything put nebulae in a small scope. I seldom use filters on galaxies or clusters, and almost always use them for nebulae.
One more thing. M31 is BIG. At 25x, assuming you are using a Plossl or similar eyepiece, it may be two or three times the size of your field of view. In my 70mm Ranger refractor, with a 32mm eyepiece at 15x, it is still bigger than my field of view. At 25x in a light-polluted area, it would be very easy to drift right past M31. Light pollution will knock the contrast between the galaxy and the sky background so low, they you may not even notice the slight brightening of the galaxy as you pan across it (guess how I know that!).
Wait until the galaxy is near the zenith, and try to avoid that streetlight. If the streetlight is nearby, your eyes will not dark adapt, and you probably won't find M31 anyway. If you can find the appropriate area of the sky through your finder scope, try observing with a towel or cloth over your head to keep the street lights at bay. Find the right area of sky in the finder, then pan around with your lowest power eyepiece.
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imjeffp
Senior Space Cadet
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 4424
Loc: Cedar Park, Texas
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Quote:
try observing with a towel or cloth over your head to keep the street lights at bay
That also seems to work well for friends, neighbors and spouses. 
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Blog
ST80 • AT80EDT/LXD650
ETX-90/DS-2000 • 10" LX200 Classic ("The Quarter-Meter Telescope at the Heritage Park Observatory")
SPC900NC • DMK21AF04 • Digital Rebel XT
  
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Some more hints on getings things 'darker';
- Make a windscreen of PVC pipes and black plastic of about 1.80mtr high (human or fence height), this will limit you viewable area but wil also get rid of the street lights.
- When near you scope, wear sun glasses. Like the ones in MIB (watch out not to trip tough!), when not looking at anything particular
- Wear an eye patch. You would normally do this in the eye you are NOT looking with, to overcome straign. Now wear it on the eye you are looking with (when NOT looking through the EP that is)
I have not tried any of the above solutions, I am not the one who has thought up one of these solutions, just passing through info and last but ot least, I will not be taken responsible for any injury or damage caused by these solutions 
Practically, i've not been able to see M31 when direct light was involved, filter did not help. But a dark corner will suffice to make it able to see when in the suburbs or edge of any town. If you are in center; light and air pollution will take care of total DSO wash-out for you, free of charge. 
Peppe
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Buster
sage
Reged: 10/04/03
Posts: 408
Loc: New York City
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Chrisp,
Greetings. About a week or 2 ago, I was doing exactly the same thing you are - looking for M31 for the first time (I have less than a month with my scope, a small Orion XT4.5 dob). I'm within the NYC limits, so light pollution here is severe, as well. It didn't take me long to find M31, once I knew where to look (and I think you know). One piece of advice I'll give to you is this - don't get too frustrated. If you're trying for a while and can't see it, and feel yourself getting a bit frustrated, then take a short break. Relax, look at another object, and then go back to M31 and try again. You'll be less tense, more focused, and then you'll probably be able to find it. When you do, you'll probably jump up and scream "woohoo!".  Good luck!
-Buster
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Buster
Orion XT4.5, Orion StarMax 127mm
Nikon CP4500, Canon Digital Rebel, ToUCam II
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Those are really good idea's and I'm happy that you all agree I should be able to see it even with the light pollution. Its funny that you suggested sun glasses, I was going to try that. I will also get an eye patch next time I'm at Wal-Mart. Buster you are right about being frustrated though, I looked for it for a good 40min and I knew where it should be. I panned back and forth over and over. If you can see it from NYC with a slightly smaller scope then I'm sure I'll be able too with some work. I do like that idea of the light shield, but I don't know if I have the motivation to build it. I'll just try moving to the back yard when I can, I just have some tree problems there. Its really great to have this site to get help from everyone and help get motivation. I hope I can return the favor some day.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Chris, I have tree problems! I am surronded by 50 footers and my field of view is about 30 degrees, tops! And that is straight up. It is much darker in my back yard so that helps a lot. I had to wait for M31 to clear the roof of the house before I could start looking (imagine me patiently tapping my foot, waiting for it to come into view!).
Are you in downtown Disneyworld or something???
Good luck! Tom
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