wojo
sage
   
Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 216
|
|
Having completed Messier's list twice, once with a 8" and then a 12.5" IM looking to find a book ,something like JAMES O'MEARA'S Messier Objects. That gives a good discription of the object to be viewed, short history , general data .Mostly for the northern sky. Any suggestions?? THANKS
|
Dave Chadsey
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 07/27/04
Posts: 508
Loc: Southern California
|
|
O'Meara also wrote a book called "The Caldwell Objects". The Caldwell's are a bit more challenging than the Messiers and some are only visible from the southern hemisphere but most can be seen from the north.
Dave
-------------------- ...and deliver us from ego.
66mm Stellarvue ED
4" achro
8" Nexstar
10" Orion Dob
16" Meade Dob (split tube)
Many binos
|
Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10432
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
|
|
Regarding the so-called Caldwell Catalogue...
http://members.aol.com/anonglxy/lingmoor.htm
You may want to consider O'Meara's Hidden Treasures.
http://astore.amazon.com/backyardast00-20/detail/0521837049
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
|
SaberScorpX
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 4220
Loc: illinois, usa
|
|
re: Caldwell link
Sounds personal.
It's a fine list that's been endorsed by the Astronomical League and our major publications. As humble ambassadors to the sky we may not all agree, but openly scoffing the established list to those interested gives a bad impression and undermines the positive outreach mission of amateur astronomy.
To the OP:
The Sky Atlas 2000.0 Companion by Robert Strong is another excellent DSO reference.
SJS
|
Fireball
sage
Reged: 03/24/06
Posts: 347
|
|
I highly recommend the "Night Sky Observer's Guide" from George Robert Kepple and Glen Sanner. Keeps you busy for quite a while
-------------------- 20x90 Bino
12" Lightbridge
Meade UWAs, TV Ethoi, Pentax XW, Hyperion, AT Titan.
|
Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10432
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
|
|
Quote:
re: Caldwell link
Sounds personal.
It's a fine list that's been endorsed by the Astronomical League and our major publications. As humble ambassadors to the sky we may not all agree, but openly scoffing the established list to those interested gives a bad impression and undermines the positive outreach mission of amateur astronomy.
To the OP:
The Sky Atlas 2000.0 Companion by Robert Strong is another excellent DSO reference.
SJS
What you call is scoffing is an honest critique, in my opinion. A great many experienced deep sky observers, including some here on CN, are less than impressed with the Caldwell list. It seems to me that the reason, other than the obvious cache of the originator's name, that the list is "established" is due primarily to the fact that Sky & Telescope was able to cash in on its publication.
Dave Mitsky
|
Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10432
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
|
|
Quote:
I highly recommend the "Night Sky Observer's Guide" from George Robert Kepple and Glen Sanner. Keeps you busy for quite a while
I'll certainly second that.
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
|
Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3452
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
|
|
Quote:
Having completed Messier's list twice, once with a 8" and then a 12.5" IM looking to find a book ,something like JAMES O'MEARA'S Messier Objects.
I think that some (not all) of the criticisms of the Caldwell list are quite legitimate. However, few people dispute that O'Meara's Caldwell book is a masterpiece. And since O'Meara included "Twenty Spectacular Non-Caldwell Objects" as well, it's fair to consider this book to be O'Meara's "110 best non-Messiers" list. Just throw out your 20 least favorite Caldwell objects and substitute O'Meara's instead.
If all you want is a list rather than a book, and if you live north of latitude 38N or thereabouts, I strongly recommend Alan Dyer's 110 best non-Messiers, published by the RASC. Or if you live farther south, the Saguaro Astronomy Club's list.
Truth be told, for all the controversy, all of these "best 110" lists include a lot of objects in common.
I wouldn't recommend tackling the Herschel 400 right off the bat unless you're sure you want a pretty serious challenge. It's not so much that the objects are hard to see -- in fact, most of them are fairly easy. But 400 is a mighty big number.
Kepple & Sanner belongs on the bookshelf of any serious deep-sky observer, but it's not the same kind of book as O'Meara's guides. I view it more as a reference work than anything else. Though I'm sure it would serve perfectly well as a to-do list if 400 is too small a number for you.
You might also consider working your way through Sue French's Celestial Sampler. She's one of the few authors that I like even better than O'Meara. (And no, I don't think that's just because I'm professionally associated with her.)
-------------------- Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
Edited by Tony Flanders (06/05/08 08:06 AM)
|
SaberScorpX
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 4220
Loc: illinois, usa
|
|
re: [many] are less than impressed with the Caldwell list.
As I said, that's fine.
Why bring up the negativity to the wide-eyed and curious?
To what end? It's an overall great list of objects by any name.
While a bino bible, I'll add Harrington's Touring the Universe through Binoculars
as an excellent reference to the brightest DSOs.
SJS
|
Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10432
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
|
|
Here are links to a number of worthwhile DSO lists:
http://www.eastvalleyastronomy.org/ngcfinest.html
http://www.saguaroastro.org/content/BEST-OF-DEEP-SKY-OBJECTS-NOT-IN-THE-NGC.htm
http://www.taas.org/taas200/index.html
http://www.astronomyboy.com/saa/saa100.html
http://www.astroleague.org/al/obsclubs/herschel/h400lstn.html
http://homepage.mac.com/vicmenard/telescopes/TheList.pdf
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/raycash/dmcon.htm
http://www.subdomainname.yurisnight.net/messier/xtra/similar/m1000.txt
http://www.1000plus.com/2000plus/
Those looking for a challenge might want to try some of these lists:
http://www.delphes.net/messier/xtra/similar/rasc-dsc.html
http://www.astronomy-mall.com/Adventures.In.Deep.Space/offpath.htm
http://www.astronomy-mall.com/Adventures.In.Deep.Space/pnfirsts.htm
http://www.astronomy-mall.com/Adventures.In.Deep.Space/palglob.htm
http://www.astronomy-mall.com/Adventures.In.Deep.Space/gcextra.htm
http://www.astronomy-mall.com/Adventures.In.Deep.Space/gcm31.htm
http://www.astronomy-mall.com/Adventures.In.Deep.Space/hickcatalog.htm
http://www.astronomy-mall.com/Adventures.In.Deep.Space/agctable.htm
http://www.astronomy-mall.com/Adventures.In.Deep.Space/chains.htm
http://www.astronomy-mall.com/Adventures.In.Deep.Space/ultimate.htm
Sue's book is excellent and comes highly recommended.
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
|
wojo
sage
   
Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 216
|
|
THANKS ALL, for your replies..... I thoroughly enjoyed O'MEARAS writing style. and helpful comments and was hoping to find a simular writing . Went through SUE FRENCH'S book also, and enjoyed it very much. Looking more towards this helpful, informative,guide style rather than just a list. Im at 42° . Clear Skies WOJO
|
MikeRatcliff
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/12/04
Posts: 1327
Loc: Redlands, CA
|
|
One caution on the after Messier lists, there are a few challenging objects where I had to refine my techniques and emotionally get over some initial disappointments.
In particular, the Bubble Nebula, was a personal nemesis. This nebula is on almost everyone's list. But I had a tough time with it, and still do.
Up to then, I was content with my usual technique: 1) get close with the Telrad, 2) in the scope, look around for something bright and obvious, 3) self congratulations - "hehe, this is like shooting fish in a barrel."
I had good dark N. California skies and a decent 6" dob at the time. (Found NGC 5053 the first time as an example, more of a tribute to the clean dark skies at my site than skill).
I was merrily going down the RASC 110 list, and even though there are warnings, I was surprised by the difficulty of the Bubble.
First of all, it is close to a star, but exactly which one? I couldn't tell with my rudimentary charts. I had the wrong star for a long time. And then there was NOTHING and I mean nothing visible anywhere around. Meade nebula filter was no help. Eventually I found some better charts and "success" was a very small faint smudge. "Is that all?"
Honestly, it put a damper on things for a while.
The biggest single criticism of the Caldwell for me is that there are a few of these challenges that are worse than the Bubble. Seems totally inappropriate for a next 110 list.
Like Tony said, steer around those nearly impossible ones for a while at least, and be prepared for some challenges. Most of them are great, but some will stretch you.
Good luck!
Mike
-------------------- 16" f/4.9 dob, 1.25" Paracorr, 24 TV Widefield, 18 Circle T ortho, 13 Nagler T6, 12.5 UO ortho,
9 Circle T ortho, 2x TV Barlow 1.25"
|
David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8272
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
|
|
Quote:
re: Caldwell link
Sounds personal.
It's a fine list that's been endorsed by the Astronomical League and our major publications. As humble ambassadors to the sky we may not all agree, but openly scoffing the established list to those interested gives a bad impression and undermines the positive outreach mission of amateur astronomy.
To the OP:
The Sky Atlas 2000.0 Companion by Robert Strong is another excellent DSO reference.
SJS
While Alister Ling's article might be a bit on the harsh side, the problem with the Caldwell list (other than the inclusion of a few non-starters) isn't necessarily the list, but the way some people (and entities) use it. A few may say "Caldwell 13" instead of NGC 457, the well-known and spectacular "E.T. Cluster". The Caldwells are *not* officially-accepted identification numbers. There are certain standard catalogs used both by professionals and amateurs, but the "list" Patrick "Caldwell" Moore put together is not one of them. For the above example, the E.T. cluster has some of these "official" catalog designations:
NGC 457
Collinder 12 (Cr 12)
Mellotte 7 (Mel 7)
Herschel 42-7 (H-42-7)
All these are standard scientific catalogs that resulted either from a systematic scientific search for objects (Messiers, Herschels, etc.), or from a group of objects which were part of a scientific study. The most common standard reference tends to be the New General Catalog number (NGC 457), although the others are used from time to time. Moore basically just cobbled together a group of objects for Sky and Telescope to create a list of objects as a follow-on to the Messier catalog. It is unclear whether he even observed these objects (the inclusion of ones like the "Cave" Nebula and IC 1613 make me really wonder about this). He did not discover or do science on them, so there is really not much validity in calling the list a "catalog" or referring to "The Caldwell Objects" in the same way as the Messier Objects are referred to. I have a very nice list of about 350 of my favorite deep-sky objects (which includes all the Messiers and the best of the Herschels), but I would not have the hubris to say that the E.T. Cluster is "Knisely 132"! The New General Catalog (NGC) however *is* a standard catalog, so that generally should be the way such objects are identified. If someone comes up to me and says, "I have Caldwell 13 in the scope right now.", I would say "Huh??". In this hobby, one does have to use standard terminology if one wants to be universally understood. I have no objection if people observe the objects in the Caldwell list or participate in the League's OBSERVE program for the list, as there are a number of real jewels among them, but please don't refer to one as "Caldwell (such-in-such)". It might result in a little confusion and perhaps give Moore just a little more credit that he may deserve. Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
|
Dave Chadsey
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 07/27/04
Posts: 508
Loc: Southern California
|
|
The Caldwell objects are fun and challenging. I have logged numbers 1-83 and 85 from Central California with a 10" scope. Yes it was tricky and I needed very dark sites, but that's the challenge.
As far as naming confusion goes, that's always been there. For instance, when you refer to Messier 51 do you mean NGC 5194 (also known as PGC 47404, Lord Rosse's Galaxy, and MCG-08-25-012) or do you mean the smaller galaxy known as NGC 5195, PGC 47413, etc.?
I sometimes feel the prejudice against the Caldwells is just that, prejudice.
Also, the book is great.
Just get out there,
Dave
Edited by Dave Chadsey (06/05/08 02:52 PM)
|
Southerner
sage
Reged: 08/15/07
Posts: 239
Loc: North Alabama
|
|
interesting thread here, having only tried the Messier and Herschel list I had no idea there was a controversy involved with this one. I think David makes some good points, and personally I wish using the NGC designation was more common for Messier items because since I started with those I have remembered them as M41 instead of its NGC designation. This isn't a big deal most of the time but now that I have started the globular cluster observing program (which does use NGC designators) is hard for me to tell if I have already observed an item or not. Anyway, interesting thread.
-------------------- http://theskywasbruised.blogspot.com/
Canon Rebel dslr
Celestron c80 ED
Orion 8 inch xt
Orion 12 inch xt
Atlas Mount
One Half Breed Hound Dog
Phillips SPC900 WebCam
|
skypilgrim
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/25/06
Posts: 558
Loc: Under a cloud
|
|
Deep-Sky Wonders by Walter Scott Houston.
Hundreds of DSO's with interesting descriptions of how amateur's have perceived them over the years. A "must-have" for any Deep sky observer, IMO. 
Sam
-------------------- AL Messier certificate #2078
AL Double Star certificate #354
Area of interest: Cultural Astronomy
My Blog: http://fathersky.wordpress.com/
|
wojo
sage
   
Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 216
|
|
Well IT looks like I stirred up the mud a little , when my only question was to find writing style like O'MEARAS. good reading , learn a little. and good targets. Sue's French's and O'Meara's books are tops in my opinion, was just looking to continue down that road GOOD THING my name isn't CALDWELL Peace WOJO
|
MikeRatcliff
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/12/04
Posts: 1327
Loc: Redlands, CA
|
|
The deep sky forum is usually a peaceful place. The mods typically fall asleep here. The Caldwell catalog is one of a few topics that has some controversy.
Thanks for the thread though. I may buy one of O'Meara's books. I like Sue French's book too.
Mike
-------------------- 16" f/4.9 dob, 1.25" Paracorr, 24 TV Widefield, 18 Circle T ortho, 13 Nagler T6, 12.5 UO ortho,
9 Circle T ortho, 2x TV Barlow 1.25"
|
David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8272
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
|
|
Dave Chadsey wrote:
Quote:
As far as naming confusion goes, that's always been there. For instance, when you refer to Messier 51 do you mean NGC 5194 (also known as PGC 47404, Lord Rosse's Galaxy, and MCG-08-25-012) or do you mean the smaller galaxy known as NGC 5195, PGC 47413, etc.?
M51A is NGC 5194 and M51B is NGC 5195. However, these are catalog numbers with some official "sanction" if you will. The Caldwell numbers have no more validity than my "Knisely" numbers would. The Caldwell list contains quite a number of interesting and challenging targets for the deep-sky enthusiast and most are well worth pursuing as a follow-on to the Messier list. However, it would be best if the objects themselves were referred to using standard catalog numbers (this isn't prejudice; it is just standard scientific convention). Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
|
Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10432
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
|
|
Quote:
Dave Chadsey wrote:
Quote:
As far as naming confusion goes, that's always been there. For instance, when you refer to Messier 51 do you mean NGC 5194 (also known as PGC 47404, Lord Rosse's Galaxy, and MCG-08-25-012) or do you mean the smaller galaxy known as NGC 5195, PGC 47413, etc.?
M51A is NGC 5194 and M51B is NGC 5195. However, these are catalog numbers with some official "sanction" if you will. The Caldwell numbers have no more validity than my "Knisely" numbers would. The Caldwell list contains quite a number of interesting and challenging targets for the deep-sky enthusiast and most are well worth pursuing as a follow-on to the Messier list. However, it would be best if the objects themselves were referred to using standard catalog numbers (this isn't prejudice; it is just standard scientific convention). Clear skies to you.
Exactly so.
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
|
SaberScorpX
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 4220
Loc: illinois, usa
|
|
A polite suggestion to use the more conventional ID to avoid confusion is fine. I look forward to the day when it stops at that.
SJS
|
David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8272
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
|
|
Quote:
interesting thread here, having only tried the Messier and Herschel list I had no idea there was a controversy involved with this one. I think David makes some good points, and personally I wish using the NGC designation was more common for Messier items because since I started with those I have remembered them as M41 instead of its NGC designation. This isn't a big deal most of the time but now that I have started the globular cluster observing program (which does use NGC designators) is hard for me to tell if I have already observed an item or not. Anyway, interesting thread.
Actually, the Messier Catalog pre-dates the New General Catalog (NGC) by around a century (and there aren't as many objects to remember in the Messier catalog than in the NGC), so the Messier number tends to be the one which is used for an object first, although this is not always the case. Then, there is the case of one of the "missing" Messier Objects, M102. It eventually became clear from studies of the writings of Messier and Mechain that M102 was probably just a duplicate observation of M101. However, around 1917, a suggestion was made by Camille Flammarion that M102 had actually been the galaxy NGC 5866. I still find a few software catalogs for telescope control that link M102 to M101 and ignore NGC 5866 as a Messier object, even though today, that galaxy has sort of been "adopted" into the Messier Catalog and assigned the number M102. Thus, this is one case where the NGC number appears to be dominant over the "Messier" number. For those interested, a nice summary of the M102 controversy can be found here:
http://www.maa.clell.de/Messier/E/m102d.html
Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
|
Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10432
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
|
|
Quote:
A polite suggestion to use the more conventional ID to avoid confusion is fine. I look forward to the day when it stops at that.
SJS
I suppose that I could look forward to the day when the misleading term catalog is replaced by the word list but things being what they are I don't expect that to happen. 
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
|
Brian W
member
Reged: 01/24/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Negros Oriental
|
|
hi, because I live near the equator most of the on line lists do not show all of my skies so I have gone another route. I am exploring the skies by constellations. It is not a problem using on line resource's to compile a list of objects that fit into both my scopes and my skies limitations. I certainly won't be getting a certificate for my wall but it is a lot of fun. Brian
-------------------- Orion 4.5" short tube reflector EQ mount
Meade 8" LightBridge
|
Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10432
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
|
|
Brian,
Here's a list of southern objects, which, rather ironically, was compiled by a man named Caldwell.
http://www.seds.org/Messier/xtra/similar/JCaldw.html
There's also the Astronomical League's Southern Sky Telescope Club list.
Do you have a copy of the excellent, but very expensive, Hartung's Astronomical Objects for Southern Telescopes: A Handbook for Amateur Observers?
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
|
Brian W
member
Reged: 01/24/08
Posts: 56
Loc: Negros Oriental
|
|
Thanks for the lists Dave. Never hurts to have more datum. One of the problems I have found with 'lists' is that if I set up a data base for 1 list I often neglect to put it in another list so I am beginning to loose what I have found. Trying to solve this problem by using the SAC data base found in AstroByte. Brian
-------------------- Orion 4.5" short tube reflector EQ mount
Meade 8" LightBridge
|
stevecoe
"Astronomical Tourist"
   
Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2632
Loc: Arizona, USA
|
|
Brian;
You can have the raw SAC data here:
www.saguaroastro.org
I put it together in a zip file that has Excel, comma delimited and text file formats.
Hope that helps; Steve Coe
-------------------- TeleVue 102 refractor on CGEM mount
10 inch f/4.7 Newtonian
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification
|
Astraforce Paul
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1879
|
|
One of the finest Messier guidebooks is Kenneth Glyn Jones, Messier's Nebulae and Star Clusters. It includes brief excerpts from the old observational reports, decent finder charts and sketches, good discussions of the objects, and even some commentary about what's in the neighborhood of each object.
In addition, it has an excellent biography of Messier, a great essay on the scopes he used, tips on observing deep sky objects, the story of the missing Messiers and the detective work around them, etc. It's really a classic.
Jones is also the person who edited the Webb Society's Deep-Sky Observer's Handbook series which is also good in its own right, though without the rich descriptions and flowing prose you're seeking.
A query for folks-- does anyone know if the much newer 2nd edition of the Jones Messier book contains all the features, write-ups, gems from the 1st edition? I'm browsing amazon.com right now to find out, but maybe someone who knows can chime in, too!
Cambridge University Press put out the hardback of it in 1991, but a paperback was just released this January! The original hardback has the wonderful feature of being able to lie flat on an observing table. I doubt the paperback version can do that, but of more importance is the content!
Edited by Paul_R (06/10/08 05:27 PM)
|
Astraforce Paul
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1879
|
|
Steve, is there a downloadable Excel file of the main Saguaro 100 DSOs?
I see links for the incredible 7,000+ objects file, but IIRC, there was a manageable list of 100+ interesting DSOs (Saguaro's NGC Best or some such) floating around at one point. That'd be great to have!
Oh, wait, I do see an online usable 100 NGC Best page or a book to order. Perhaps that's the only form it's available in.
Edited by Paul_R (06/10/08 05:34 PM)
|
stevecoe
"Astronomical Tourist"
   
Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2632
Loc: Arizona, USA
|
|
Paul;
No, there is no Excel file for any of the shorter SAC databases. You know you could pull them into Excel, sort on Messier and then the brightest NGC, put that all together and make your own Excel of the best of.
Just a thought; Steve Coe
-------------------- TeleVue 102 refractor on CGEM mount
10 inch f/4.7 Newtonian
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification
|
Astraforce Paul
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1879
|
|
Steve, a good thought! I'll have to see how well my broadband connection and Excel version work in handling 7,000+ records!
|
gripweed44
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 952
Loc: PDX
|
|
I am finding the Caldwell's to be way more difficult than the Messier's.
I did the Globular Cluster club after the Messier. I did it manually. That was a real eye opener to the small nature of the objects off th M list.It was a great learning experience. NGC 7006 and M13 are way different. When looking for 7006 the hunt is on!
JOhn
-------------------- John
Omega Centauri is the finest Globular I have seen with my own eyes.
|
SaberScorpX
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 4220
Loc: illinois, usa
|
|
Many of the optional programs weren't around after I did the AL Messier. After the Bino Messier and Deepsky I took on the Herschel 400.
Stephen Saber PAC/Astronomical League www.astronomyblogs.com/member/saberscorpx
|
xfile101
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/08/07
Posts: 759
Loc: Ocean Gate, NJ
|
|
Quote:
Knisely 132
From now on I'm calling the E.T. Cluster Knisely 132, I think it has a nice ring to it and for some reason it's stuck in my mind as such but is the "i" a long "i" or short? I assume the "K" and "e" is silent? So if my assumptions are correct it would be pronounced Neigh-slee, right?
|
Astraforce Paul
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1879
|
|
Stephen, what scope did you use for the Herschel 400? What advice would you have others contemplating doing that?
I almost phrased my question too casually as this: "How did you find the Herschel 400?" That would have led to such tongue-in-cheek answers as "Practice, practice, practice" or "By star-hopping" or "By looking up!"
|
SaberScorpX
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 4220
Loc: illinois, usa
|
|
Hi Paul-
Pretty straightforward stuff.
8"SCT/RDF from 6th mag skies and well-planned search sequences.
And alot of patience with clouds and Luna. Some use various filters to coax detection/detail. I did not.
In fact I think the number may appear more daunting than the majority
of relatively accessible treasures.
Stephen Saber
PAC/Astronomical League
www.astronomyblogs.com/member/saberscorpx
|
dlferree
super member
Reged: 06/20/06
Posts: 121
Loc: Rio Rico, Arizona
|
|
Paul,
I used my 10" dob and also have dark skies, around mag 6. With that said, I agree with Stephen about the shear number of objects and the time it'll take to complete. Even with dark skies and a 10" their are a few objects that were difficult. Don't remember them all, but I do remember taking multiple nights to find one such object in Leo. After finding it, I realized I was in the right area each night, but the trans/seeing were such that I was unable to detect it. Good luck and enjoy the list.
-------------------- Dave
DSH-10
|
Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10432
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
|
|
NGC 6118 is generally considered to be the most difficult object on the H400 list and it certainly was for me. I was unable to see the slightest hint of it, despite repeated attempts, through the 17 and 20-inch classical Cassegrains at the ASH Naylor Observatory and at a friend's private observatory with somewhat darker skies. I finally logged it at Stellafane ten years ago using Phil Harrington's venerable 8" f/7 Criterion Newtonian.
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
|
Astraforce Paul
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1879
|
|
So, who put together the Herschel 400? Were they sadists?
Isn't there a top Herschel list floating around? That is, the best of the Herschels?
|
David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8272
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
|
|
Quote:
So, who put together the Herschel 400? Were they sadists?
Isn't there a top Herschel list floating around? That is, the best of the Herschels?
No, they weren't sadists, although a few of the objects can be tough in modest apertures. The list was put together by a group of amateurs from the Ancient City Astronomy Club back around 1980 or so. All of the objects were observed by these people in apertures six inches and above, so they can all be seen in that size scope. Indeed, Jay Freemen has "detected" pretty much all of them in only a *55mm refractor*:
The Herschel 400 List -- Brighter Than You Think
As for a "top Herschel" listing, no, there isn't one, but many of the better Herschels are found in a number of deep-sky observing lists. In fact, I consider about 145 of them to be true "showpiece" objects for apertures 8 inches and above. Many of the rest are quite interesting and worth observing as well. However, there are some challenges in the Herschel 400, as the list was made to give the observer a bit of a test of their abilities (nothing worth doing is necessarily easy). Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
|
Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10432
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
|
|
The history of the H400 list is presented here.
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
|
Bill Weir
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 1297
Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
|
|
Quote:
NGC 6118 is generally considered to be the most difficult object on the H400 list and it certainly was for me. I was unable to see the slightest hint of it, despite repeated attempts, through the 17 and 20-inch classical Cassegrains at the ASH Naylor Observatory and at a friend's private observatory with somewhat darker skies. I finally logged it at Stellafane ten years ago using Phil Harrington's venerable 8" f/7 Criterion Newtonian.
Dave Mitsky
I always find it interesting when I see what is considered difficult. If NGC 6118 is considered the most difficult of the H400 then they are all possible with a 6" scope. I've seen NGC 6118 several times with my 6" dob. All of these were on nights of good transparency. It's that 6th mag star right next to it that makes it difficult.
It was back years ago when I was learning my way around the sky and would just open the page of my Cambridge Star Atlas and try to find everything on it. There were several nights of failure until on one great night I had success. Sometimes ignorance as to the difficulty of an object is bliss. Don't tell me it's tough, let me find out for myself.
I still often just open up an atlas to the meridian and go at it. I've found alot of excellent objects that way that I don't see on any list.
Bill
-------------------- 6'' Orion SkyQuest
12.5'' f/5 Custom Truss Dob
William Optics 80mm ZenithStar ED II
f/5 25" newtonian on a giant GEM, any time I want
Observing sessions grand total for 2008, 121.
So far in 2009, 92
|
sgottlieb
sage
Reged: 07/22/07
Posts: 339
Loc: SF Bay area
|
|
Quote:
I've seen NGC 6118 several times with my 6" dob. All of these were on nights of good transparency. It's that 6th mag star right next to it that makes it difficult.
Excellent observation with a 6", Bill, but why not keep the distracting 6th mag star out of the field since it's 17' NE of the galaxy?
-------------------- Steve Gottlieb
18" f/4.3 Starmaster
Adventures In Deep Space
7500+ NGC/IC Visual Descriptions
NGC/IC Project
|
Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3452
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
|
|
Quote:
If NGC 6118 is considered the most difficult of the H400 then they are all possible with a 6" scope.
Yes, many people have done the Herschel 400 with 6-inch scopes. It's not hard at all under dark skies.
I'm not sure I'd call NGC 6118 the hardest. It's undoubtedly the faintest, but when all is said and done, it's just a pretty typical, moderately small, moderately low-surface-brightness galaxy. A little tricky through my 7-inch scope from medium-dark skies (SQM 21.1), but extremely obvious in my 12.5-incher from the same location.
NGC 6540, a heavily obscured globular cluster, is the one of the Herschel 400 that gave me the most trouble. Not so much seeing it as being sure what I was seeing, or supposed to be seeing.
I found a copy of my original report to sci.astro.amateur after completing the Herschel 400 here.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
Edited by Tony Flanders (07/10/08 06:01 AM)
|
Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10432
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
|
|
Quote:
I'm not sure I'd call NGC 6118 the hardest. It's undoubtedly the faintest, but when all is said and done, it's just a pretty typical, moderately small, moderately low-surface-brightness galaxy. A little tricky through my 7-inch scope from medium-dark skies (SQM 21.1), but extremely obvious in my 12.5-incher from the same location.
NGC 6540, a heavily obscured globular cluster, is the one of the Herschel 400 that gave me the most trouble. Not so much seeing it as being sure what I was seeing, or supposed to be seeing.
I found a copy of my original report to sci.astro.amateur after completing the Herschel 400 here.
I had relatively little trouble with NGC 6540, which was the second most difficult H400 object according to some sources, but my first sighting of NGC 6118 absolutely required dark skies.
In June of 2002, my friend Tony Donnangelo, who is a truly first class observer, and I saw no hint of NGC 6118 through his 10" Meade LX5 SCT under slightly better than sixth magnitude skies at an ASH dark site in western Perry County, Pennsylvania. I've had no succcess with detecting NGC 6118 from Cherry Springs State Park, the IDA's second International Dark Sky Park, with my 101mm Tele Vue refractor. The Blinking Galaxy is visible through larger apertures from that location, of course.
Ed Ting relates his experience with observing NGC 6118 from a dark site in Arizona at http://www.scopereviews.com/az.html
"Halfway through the night, I laid some time aside to look for NGC 6118 in Serpens, which is roundly considered the most difficult Herschel object of them all. It's a relatively large galaxy with almost no surface brightness. Many experienced observers go their whole lives without seeing it. On this night, I found NGC 6118 in about thirty seconds. It looks a little bit like M33 does in my TeleVue Ranger under modest light pollution."
Here's what Jay Reynolds Freeman had to say about NGC 6118 and NGC 6540 during his quest to observe the Herschel 400 with a 55mm refractor:
"NGC 6118 lies in eastern end Serpens Caput, near a sixth-magnitude star (which is actually in Ophiuchus), about two degrees south of the celestial equator. That star was visible to the naked eye, and even if it hadn't been, nearby lambda, epsilon, and delta Ophiuchi made the field easy to locate. I observed with two eyepieces, alternating between a 12 mm Brandon (37x) and a 20 mm Meade Research Grade Erfle (22x). I used the _Millennium_Star_Atlas_, which shows plenty of nearby stars, so the precise location of the object was not in doubt.
With each of the eyepieces, I saw a faint, diffuse, and not very centrally concentrated glow, popping in and out at the limit of averted vision, at the charted position. Jiggling the telescope, or moving it slightly with the slow motions, helped a bit. The glow was detectable only ten or twenty percent of the time, but it kept reappearing at the same place, and I do not see similar fluctuations of intensity at random places in such fields, so I logged it.
Make no mistake -- this was a very tough object, certainly the toughest so far in my Herschel-400 survey with Refractor Red. When I say "detection", I mean no more than that. NGC 6118 would have gone unnoticed had I not known in advance exactly where to look, or had I not been patiently willing to pull every trick in my book to find it. I suspect that the root of the difficulty is that the object does not have nearly as large a central concentration to its brightness as do most galaxies; such a bright core to an image seems to draw the eye, and give the brain a reference point for locating the fainter, outer periphery of the object. Or so I would conjecture.
Since I had essentially an equally good view at 22x (2.5 mm exit pupil) and 37x (1.5 mm exit pupil), I suspect that an interim magnification -- perhaps with a 2 mm exit pupil -- might have been best for that object on that night. Unfortunately, I had only brought a handful of eyepieces, and did not have one available.
On the next evening I was at Fremont Peak again, this time with my Meade 5-inch refractor (model 127 ED). Sky conditions were similar, so I looked for NGC 6118 in the larger telescope, using 36x (Orion 32 mm Sirius Plossl) -- a magnification very similar to one of the ones I had used with Refractor Red. The object was much easier -- with five times the light grasp, that's no surprise -- and I was able to confirm the appearance that I had seen in the smaller instrument.
NGC 6540, located just off the spout of the Sagittarius "Teapot", is something of a puzzle. The visual description from the original catalog is a faint, sparse, open cluster which is relatively small in angular size. Yet what _Millennium_ plots is a ten-arc-minute globular. What I saw with the 12 mm Brandon in Refractor Red (37x) was a six or seven arc-minute unresolved circular glow, just noticeably brighter than the background (which was pretty bright -- this object is in the Sagittarius Milky Way, after all), with a smaller, brighter core superimposed. The core might have been one or two arc-minutes in diameter, it was unresolved, and it did not appear to have diffuse edges. The entire apparition was dead on the atlas position for NGC 6540, and was notably easier than NGC 6118."
Refractor Red: NGC 6118 and NGC 6540 by Jay Reynolds Freeman
[Edit: shortened the hyperlink]
Dave Mitsky
Edited by Olivier Biot (07/13/08 08:22 AM)
|
MikeRatcliff
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/12/04
Posts: 1327
Loc: Redlands, CA
|
|
Quote:
I found a copy of my original report to sci.astro.amateur after completing the Herschel 400 here.
Dang, Tony. That's not a report, that's two or three book chapters! Outstanding.
Mike
-------------------- 16" f/4.9 dob, 1.25" Paracorr, 24 TV Widefield, 18 Circle T ortho, 13 Nagler T6, 12.5 UO ortho,
9 Circle T ortho, 2x TV Barlow 1.25"
|
Bill Weir
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 1297
Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
|
|
Last night I was out at the observatory with a couple of frieds. I had my 12.5" with me. Around midnight, with the Moon still hovering above the horizon. I had a look at NGC 6540. It was not a difficult object at all. I see now that I need to put it on my 6" scope globular cluster quest list. I thought I was finished for my latitude but I see now that I'm not.
I then swung the scope towards NGC 6118. Now I know that I was pointed more towrds the Moon but by then it was starting to dip below the horizon. It took every trick in the book including a "monk's hood" to make that puppy show.
The transparency was not a factor. Before observing these two, I had managed a clear observation of NGC 6302 a scant 4 degrees above the horizon at 365X and was able to see detail.
The surprise observation of that time was NGC 6520. Ihis interesting open cluster, lies a very short distance to the west of 6540. The McDonald's arches of stars overlaying the rectangular scattering of fainter stars gives it a very unique look.
Bill
-------------------- 6'' Orion SkyQuest
12.5'' f/5 Custom Truss Dob
William Optics 80mm ZenithStar ED II
f/5 25" newtonian on a giant GEM, any time I want
Observing sessions grand total for 2008, 121.
So far in 2009, 92
|
Crossen
member
Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 87
Loc: Vienna
|
|
One of the many things "Burnham's Celestial Handbook" did that most general observing guides fail to do is use the mind to help the eye. The "Night Sky Observers' Guide," for example, does little more than describe each object's appearance in telescopes of different size. This is useful as far as it goes, but observing gets another dimension when you know something about the astrophysics of the object you are looking at. Even the haziest "faint fuzzy" gains something when you know that it is part of such-and-such a galaxy cluster at so many light-years distance. So what's after the Messier list is the real astronomy of the Messier objects. They get more interesting to look at the more you know about them. Has anyone made a list of Messier open clusters by increasing astronomical age? That would make an interesting magazine article, with a photo of each cluster next to its astronomical description: the sequence would show how the appearance of open clusters change as they age. Then, when you're looking at the NGC objects, you could say; "Well heck, this NGC 7789 in Cassiopeia reminds me of M37 in Auriga, which is fairly old--so it must be fairly old too." And you'd be right. We don't need more observing lists: we need more observing guides that tell us exactly what we're looking at.
|
wojo
sage
   
Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 216
|
|
CROSSEN ......... THANK YOU for steering this post back to it's original meaning .My initial question was to find informative info on what I was about to look at, not just some list. Like I posted originaly, O'MEARA'S and SUE FRENCH'S writtings are very informative, and even after logging through Messiers list twice. I still find myself re= reading O'MEARA'S book from time to time, to gather more info. It seems to me that whatever post I put up, the original question never seems to get answered, but dragged around , smeared around, or trails off in a endless debate!! Anyhow thanks for getting it on track. I will certainly Watch what I post about from now on,if at all.........WOJO
|
Thomas_N
member
Reged: 07/07/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Germany, Bavarian Forest
|
|
With O'Meara you have to be careful when it comes to historical information. There are quite a few such errors in the introduction to the Herschel 400 Observing Guide. But OK. I guess that's peanuts. 
Thomas
|
Crossen
member
Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 87
Loc: Vienna
|
|
Please don't give up wojo! I've just joined the forums, and I hate to have them lose someone who can bring up such good questions! And your question gets right to the heart of what modern observing guides need to be. Messier marathons have their place; but afterwards any dyed-in-the-wool observer will want to make a closer acquaintance with each of these objects--and then with the NGC objects too--because so many of these objects offer so much to see if you know what to look for. But how should an observing guide that offers this be structured? The "Night Sky Observers Guide" illustrates the problem: if Kepple and Sanner had tried to include something about the astrophysics of each and every one of those hundreds of objects, can you imagine how big (and expensive) those volumes would be! The solution is probably how Robert Burnham, Jr. approached the problem: a good balance of tables (longer and more detailed than his) with explanatory text on more objects than he covered. For the moment all we can do is pick up info from scattered sources. Archinal and Hynes' "Open Clusters", for example, gives lots of good hard astrophysical data gleaned from the journals: but it is of limited value because they don't relate this data to each cluster's eyepiece appearance. The magazines could do this sort of thing more regularly: articles for serious observers on specific types of objects or constellations or areas of the sky with data tables and description. But will the market bear it? The old "Deep Sky" had done this but us out of print.
|
Steven Aggas
sage
Reged: 04/15/08
Posts: 463
Loc: Arizona
|
|
Quote:
One of the many things "Burnham's Celestial Handbook" did that most general observing guides fail to do is use the mind to help the eye. The "Night Sky Observers' Guide," for example, does little more than describe each object's appearance in telescopes of different size. This is useful as far as it goes, but observing gets another dimension when you know something about the astrophysics of the object you are looking at. Even the haziest "faint fuzzy" gains something when you know that it is part of such-and-such a galaxy cluster at so many light-years distance.
I agree Crossen, with both the comments about Burnham's and the observing guides today with only their viewing commentary and no scientific constructs.
Growing up with the Burnham's books invoked further curiosity about the workings of the Universe. When the Burnham's books started to become dated, I fortunately had a friend in MI who had a tremendous knowledge of chemistry and physics, and our discussions of objects, processes, charts, and graphs continued where Burnham's left off, and was better than Burnham's in one regard in that it was interactive as opposed to static info in a book. This guy is one of two Mentors I had and the one responsible for teaching me to build scopes and, more importantly, sending me on my journey of investigation of Earth as a planet with geological processes and the interaction of the forces in physics and matter in the Universe.
I’ve now been in Arizona for 8 years, my friend has since moved to Tennessee, and we don’t talk as often, but, while I’m still looking for someone local of that caliber for Saturday night beer and conversations…, you know…, Cloudy Nights members, and this type of forum, are pretty amazing and I’m glad they/it exists.
Steven
-------------------- Mr. Wizard
Walking on a Dob: http://darkskyobserving.com/MtGraham.html
Elements in Harmony I, an 8"f6 German Equatorial - Stellafane Winner,
II a 20"f4.2 Newt-Dob - Astrofest Winner,
III a 6"f3.5 Finder/Newt-Dob, and
IV a 36"f4.5 Newt-Dob - "If it's up there, it's in here."
Apache-Sitgreaves Center for Astrophysics
www.DarkSkyObserving.com
|
Astraforce Paul
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1879
|
|
As a beginner's version of all that, I really liked Turn Left at Orion-- it has a good blend of some basic science and information about what you are looking at, along with sketches and good finding info.
Much sparser than Burnham's, but richer than mere lists are Eicher's Observing the Universe from Your Backyard and Sanford's Observing the Constellations. Both have a good selection of objects in their tables, along with star charts (Sanford's are by Tirion, Eicher's are by some unknown 3rd grader! ) (just kidding, but they look hand drawn), and then descriptive blurbs about various objects, with a sprinkling of science info.
Burnham's works so well because he blends astronomy, the process of scientific reasoning and analysis, poetry, and mythology, along with descriptions. His 3-volume set is a rich introduction to astronomy and astrophysics.
What would be wonderful would be an updated version of Burnham's...
I've often thought that groups of amateurs, each responsible for a particular constellation, could update the science info and the observing descriptions... maybe an arrangement could be made with SEDs or another organization that already has information on the web to use some of their stuff, too. A nice set of star charts, with black and white photos of objects, along with the science would be a good blend.
Maybe this would be a good wiki project--one of those where worldwide people contribute updates, notes, revisions.
|
Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10432
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
|
|
Quote:
CROSSEN ......... THANK YOU for steering this post back to it's original meaning .My initial question was to find informative info on what I was about to look at, not just some list. Like I posted originaly, O'MEARA'S and SUE FRENCH'S writtings are very informative, and even after logging through Messiers list twice. I still find myself re= reading O'MEARA'S book from time to time, to gather more info.
It seems to me that whatever post I put up, the original question never seems to get answered, but dragged around , smeared around, or trails off in a endless debate!! Anyhow thanks for getting it on track. I will certainly Watch what I post about from now on,if at all.........WOJO
I don't mean to be critical but, despite the thread drift, you seem to be putting a somewhat unwarranted spin on things. In the first page of replies to your original query, six different observing guide books were suggested to you. Also, you did not name books by the above authors until they had already been mentioned by others.
Link
Dave Mitsky
|
David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8272
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Knisely 132
From now on I'm calling the E.T. Cluster Knisely 132, I think it has a nice ring to it and for some reason it's stuck in my mind as such but is the "i" a long "i" or short? I assume the "K" and "e" is silent? So if my assumptions are correct it would be pronounced Neigh-slee, right?
The "i" in my name is long and the K is silent (as in the word "Knight"), so it is prounounced "ni-zlee". Still, I have had a lot of times when the name was mispronounced, and it is a very forgivable error. However, no one should use the K numbers (the only thing I want with my name on it is a new comet) . Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
|
Crossen
member
Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 87
Loc: Vienna
|
|
One of the problems of trying to re-do Burnham's I suspect would be the length of the final product: it's already a very long observing guide, and would be even longer if you add more detailed descriptions of more objects--to say nothing of more and longer tables. And yet, as the present forum by itself proves, today's amateur wants and needs more. So want can you cut? The constellation and star-name history? There are a lot of amateurs with no interest at all in history. And yet there are many who DO have such an interest. And I think both groups agree that one of the things that makes Burnham's masterpiece a masterpiece are his conversations (to call them "essays" just doesn't sound right!) about constellation and star-name history. So any writer bold (or foolhardy?) enough to try to re-do Burnham's immediately faces a staggeringly difficult question: What are the selection criteria for what's going to be in this thing? Following that is the question of organization: Given that this will be a constellation-by-constellation guide, how should the material be organized within each constellation? Object type instead of designation type, like Burnham used? The questions of exactly how to re-do Burnham's are intimidating.
|
Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10432
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
|
|
Some time ago there was talk about an updated version of Burnham's but, according to one source, the logistics of reproducing the text, apparently due to the manner in which it was originally printed, would make it an almost impossible undertaking.
Dave Mitsky
-------------------- Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
|
Crossen
member
Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 87
Loc: Vienna
|
|
Some time ago there was talk about an updated version of Burnham's but, according to one source, the logistics of reproducing the text, apparently due to the manner in which it was originally printed, would make it an almost impossible undertaking.
The published "Burnham's Celestial Handbook", as it appears in print, was TYPED by Robert Burnham, Jr.! In effect, then, he did the type-setting and page-composition himself. I've seen the original edition of the the first two volumes, which Burnham self-published: they do not differ from those volumes as published by Dover in 1978. Those first two volumes were advertised by Dover in the summer of 1978 and the third volume became available early the next year. I suspect that with modern scanning the technical problems of recreating the book with the same text but new illustrations and photos, and a new type, are managable. But so much of both the astronomical data and star-name history in "Burnham's Celestial Handbook" is out-of-date, what would be the point of reprinting it? The style of the writing is incomparable; so how could another hand effectively update it? And don't forget how reluctant any publisher had been to take the book. (Burnham himself describes this in a "Self-Interview" in one of the 1982 issues of "Astronomy" magazine.) Anybody who would want to do a new Burnham's--either a simple update, or from scratch--would no doubt have trouble locating a publisher because of the up-front costs of production.
|
Astraforce Paul
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1879
|
|
I think the idea would be to just update the astronomical data, but NOT interfere with, change, or alter the prose, the history, the poetry, the archeology and mythology discussions, etc.
A wiki style approach could work, with different clubs taking different constellations, or different amateurs signing up for different objects to research and update the data.
|
BillFerris
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 2908
|
|
The "Celestial Handbooks" are a classic because they helped spark a firestorm within the amateur community. When the handbooks were published, all those thousands of galaxies, clusters and nebulae were new territory ready for exploration. No one had ever attempted a Messier marathon, there was no "Herschel 400" list, and the very mention of names like Arp and Hickson would have drawn a blank look from most astronomy enthusiasts. (When did the Astronomical League issue their first Messier club observing award?) Deep sky observing was ready to explode as the focus of amateur astronomy and Burnham helped light the fuse.
His timing couldn't have been better. The Moon had been conquered. NASA was sending probes to the nearest planets and the resulting photos were gradually removing the veil of mystery from these worlds. Burnham celebrated the deep-sky at a time when the amateur community was searching for a new frontier of visual observing.
Today, deep-sky observing is a well-established niche within amateur astronomy. Though harsh sounding, it may be that Burnham's time has passed. Burnham was, in some respects, one generation's prophet. He spread the good word about the wonders of observing the deep sky. But each generation finds its own prophets. Eventually, the "Celestial Handbooks" will be--if they haven't already been--replaced by a new touchstone for the next generation of amateur astronomer.
Rather than attempt to re-write or update an established classic, why not strive to be bold? Create a work that celebrates a new frontier of amateur astronomy at the very time when amateurs are ready to embrace and explore something new. But keep in mind, the next frontier of amateur astronomy is not visual observing.
Where does the next frontier reside? CCD imaging? video astronomy? Cosmology? Imagine a piece of software that allows a computer to mathematically model ideas expressed in common, every day language. Wouldn't it be something if this suite of computer tools served to inspire a new generation of armchair cosmologists? Wouldn't it be amazing if someone actually used that software to produce groundbreaking work?
Pie in the sky? Probably. But that's the kind of thing that's going to be embraced as the next Burnham's. We don't need an update of Burnham's. We need a fresh idea.
Bill in Flag
-------------------- Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold
18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon
Cosmic Voyage
|
Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3452
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
|
|
Quote:
Though harsh sounding, it may be that Burnham's time has passed.
I wouldn't put it exactly that way. Classics stay great forever. I recently re-read Homer's Illiad, the earliest book in the Western tradition, with the possible exception of parts of the Old Testament. And you know what? After 2,500 years, the Illiad is still a strong contender for the title of "best book ever written." And it's as fresh and relevant as it was the day it was written.
Likewise, visual astronomy is going to be around forever, deep-sky observing is here to stay, and Burnham's will still be a great book a century from now. But I agree that trying to rewrite it would be a mistake, and even updating the data tables would be misguided. Why not just read Burnham's as is and use more comprehensive and accurate sources for the data?
Quote:
Rather than attempt to re-write or update an established classic, why not strive to be bold? Create a work that celebrates a new frontier of amateur astronomy at the very time when amateurs are ready to embrace and explore something new. But keep in mind, the next frontier of amateur astronomy is not visual observing.
Well said!
-------------------- Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
|
Astraforce Paul
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1879
|
|
I can give you one good reason why... that way an amateur would have it all in one place... all of Burnham's wonderful prose and insights, combined with updated, accurate information.
It would save having to shuffle around to different sources or be forever wondering... "Gee, is this part correct? Is that?"
Maybe the trick is to go about this the other way... take a modern guidebook and add in Burnham's reflections.
For example, the Night Sky Observer's Guide is a wonderful compendium, but is too large for use in the field, and too dry for my tastes. I wish that they would put out a small, 1 volume, ringed version of it, featuring only the best and brightest objects. Add in Burnham's reflections and you'd have something that would make for great reading at the scope and on the couch!
Or, intermingle a mini-NSOG with Walter Scott Houston's observing comments.
Or update Kenneth Glynn Jones's Messier book, which is great for guiding the observer to take a second and third look at the object and has the benefit of being accessible with descriptions of what a mere mortal could see as opposed to others who observe under the darkest Hawaiian skies with the best eyes on the planet. (No names, please! ) Of course, one would want that expanded with the best NGC, too.
I agree with Tony, visual observing will be with us for a long time...
|
bper
member
Reged: 02/22/08
Posts: 45
Loc: Yakima Washington
|
|
Over the years I have treasured my Burnham set of books. I'm not sure how many of you have read the article published in 1997 in the Phoenix Times, but it is well worth reading about Robert Burnhams life. Allow yourself an hour to read it as it is long, but every time I read it I get a little choked up. He was truly a unique person.
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1997-09-25/news/sky-writer/
-------------------- Bruce Perrault
The Cowiche Astronomer
Yakima Astronomical Society
Goldendale Observatory State Park
|
Crossen
member
Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 87
Loc: Vienna
|
|
I'm glad bper brought up that "Phoenix Times" bio of Burnham because it shows the troubles an author is likely to have finding a publisher for that kind of project--whether a comprehensive Burnham-type deep-sky guide, or "just" an update of the Celestial Handbook. The up-front production costs are going to be very high, especially if the photos are printed in better paper: so, no matter how popular and successful the BCH has been, publishers are going to be shy about taking on such a project. One of the ironies in the of Burnham's story is that one of the publishers he approached turned down the BCH because they claimed they would have to double-check all his data and that would take two years. Also according to the bio, Lowell Observatory itself was worried about errors in their employee's book--though that may well have been from the jealousy of Burnham at Lowell to which the article alludes. But publishers and magazines are certainly not so fastidious about errors in fact or typology today! In a well-written and forceful review of "Star Clusters and How to Observe Them", CN's Don Pensack roundly criticizes the book's author and publisher for their slip-shod editing, leaving even spelling and gramatical errors. Unfortunately that book is not unique: I even see a lot more typos in the technical journals the last few years. Worse, in one book after another, and year after year in the magazines, the SAME errors are repeated ad nauseum about constellation history. Just one example: A recent article in one of the magazines claimed that the zodiac was formed long before 400 BC--something serious scholars stopped believing before the First World War. (Many of its individual constellations are much older, but the zodiac as such was invented around 500 BC in Babylon.)
Thus we can assume that there are few publishers today who would want to spend the money to make a new BCH as scientifically and topographically accurate as Robert Burnham, Jr. made his BCH. Thus I'm afraid that to a certain extent while reading astronomy books and articles we already are in the situation Paul R described above: " . . . forever wondering, 'Gee, is this part correct?' "
As the "Phoenix New Times" article says, there were serious difficulties between Burnham and Dover Publications and Dover stonewalled the reporter. Any author who would contemplate a Celestial Handbook type project would probably want to find out what those problems were. My impressions after reading the bio (which I first did several years ago) was that Robert Burnham Jr. was one of these people too good for this life. From a practical point of view his weakness was that he was not "diversified" as a thinker and writer--But that kind of focus is probably what it takes to write a BCH. He gave us a wonderful gift--but got darned little pleasure out of it.
Craig Crossen
|
Lard Greystoke
sage
Reged: 07/27/08
Posts: 377
Loc: Ohio
|
|
Quote:
Over the years I have treasured my Burnham set of books. I'm not sure how many of you have read the article published in 1997 in the Phoenix Times, but it is well worth reading about Robert Burnhams life. Allow yourself an hour to read it as it is long, but every time I read it I get a little choked up. He was truly a unique person.
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1997-09-25/news/sky-writer/
Thanks for the reference. I recall reading a letter by Burnham to S & T about 20 years ago, complaining of his shabby rewards for his labors. The letter was disturbing - although the Handbook was a success, the letter did not show the attitude of a successful man. Thus, sad but not surprised to see his end.
Is the Burnham glass half-full or empty? Given his obvious, probably innate social difficulties, I would have to say that Burnham was very, very lucky to have been born into a relatively advantaged position. He got a lot more recognition and support early on than most nerds with homemade optics ever do. He, and we, were lucky that he was able to get his opus published at all. The odds did not favor it.
Had not Burnham been born into a relatively privileged position, pushy mother and all, chances are he would have vanished just as obscurely without accomplishing anything.
-------------------- Lard Greystoke
10" Odyssey Compact
"With Tantor, the elephant, he made friends. How? Ask me not."
|
Crossen
member
Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 87
Loc: Vienna
|
|
Almost 3 months ago this thread began with Wojo asking, After the Messier list, then what? And here we end up talking about Robert Burnham, Jr. Strange how a man than was so weak in many ways could so imprint his personality on a field--astronomy writing--that there seems to be no way to go past him! I think, though, that this is tied up with the problem with the magazines discussed in another long-running thread. They seem to be at a dead end too.
|
GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1250
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
|
Quote:
One of the many things "Burnham's Celestial Handbook" did that most general observing guides fail to do is use the mind to help the eye. The "Night Sky Observers' Guide," for example, does little more than describe each object's appearance in telescopes of different size. This is useful as far as it goes, but observing gets another dimension when you know something about the astrophysics of the object you are looking at. Even the haziest "faint fuzzy" gains something when you know that it is part of such-and-such a galaxy cluster at so many light-years distance. So what's after the Messier list is the real astronomy of the Messier objects. They get more interesting to look at the more you know about them. Has anyone made a list of Messier open clusters by increasing astronomical age? That would make an interesting magazine article, with a photo of each cluster next to its astronomical description: the sequence would show how the appearance of open clusters change as they age. Then, when you're looking at the NGC objects, you could say; "Well heck, this NGC 7789 in Cassiopeia reminds me of M37 in Auriga, which is fairly old--so it must be fairly old too." And you'd be right. We don't need more observing lists: we need more observing guides that tell us exactly what we're looking at.
A kindred spirit, Craig!
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
|
stevecoe
"Astronomical Tourist"
   
Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2632
Loc: Arizona, USA
|
|
Another possibility is the Luginbuhl and Skiff book. They cover the northern sky quite well and cover all the bright objects in the constellations they could see from Flagstaff Arizona. As someone else said about the Night Sky Observer's Guide it is certainly dry reading, but a good reference. If you are looking for a great observing list for the next several years, this will supply it. I don't know if it is still in print, but I am certain that with some work you could find a good copy.
Clear skies; Steve Coe
-------------------- TeleVue 102 refractor on CGEM mount
10 inch f/4.7 Newtonian
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification
|
Crossen
member
Reged: 07/14/08
Posts: 87
Loc: Vienna
|
|
Your mention of the Skiff and Luginbuhl guide reminded me that the Phoenix Times article mentioned Brian Skiff was considering doing an update of Burnham's. That's more than a decade ago, but the project would have taken Brian at least that long. Anybody hear any rumors about this?
This thread certainly proves that there is a need for an updated, reasonably-comprehensive, full-sky observing guide that covers something of both history and astrophysics as well. But, speaking as a writer, I certainly would not embark on such a project, which is likely to take at least ten years, without a contract and an advance; and no publisher would go along with that--especially in the present state of the market (fragmented as it is among so many observing guides) and in the present state of the economy.
Robert Burnham, Jr. started his Handbook as a private project, and only later thought of publishing it. It will take that same kind of private initiative, dedication, and raw curiosity for a "new" Burnham's" to be written. But, given Burnham's experience, we cannot expect such a writer's bio to end, " . . . and he lived happily ever after."
Meanwhile, all that the ordinary observer can do is draw information out of several different books, each with their own strengths and weaknesses and with data that is out-of-date, and constellation history that is incorrect, to varying degrees.
Craig Crossen
|