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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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Astraforce Paul
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Why aren't globulars red?
      #2460314 - 06/14/08 05:14 PM

Just discovered how old the globulars are. I mean, I knew that they dated from the earlier "years" of the galaxy-- position in the halo around the Milky Way--but hadn't made the connection about the showpieces being so old.

I think it was in Burnham's where I was reading the other day that M13 is 10 billion years old and then spotted something on line about M22 being 12 billion. That's going back to the earlier days of the universe (give or take several billion!) (No doubt those data are outdated.)

But then I started thinking (and that's always dangerous!) and wondering, given how old the globs are, and thus how old their stars are, why globs aren't all reddish?!

Their color-mag diagrams show the proverbial turn offs, any white blue stars would have long ago expired, what should be left behind are red drawfs and dying red giants.

What should be left behind are red stars and their combined light should be red! Add in reddening dust and we should be seeing red blobs of glittering rubies! Not diamonds on black velvet as the cliche goes!

What's up?


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Achernar
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Astraforce Paul]
      #2460643 - 06/14/08 09:12 PM

In bigger telescopes they do take on a reddish hue in some cases. For the most part however, the individual stars are very faint and do not excite the retina enough for it to detect color. Also, there are bluish stars in globular clusters, which are two smaller stars that merged into a larger, more massive star or they are burning helium for energy in the their cores. Most of the stars in a globular cluster actually contribute very little to it's total light, it's the red and yellow giants that are responsible for most of it instead. That is why some of the brighter globulars do show hints or red or orange through larger telescopes.

Taras

--------------------
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RussL
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Achernar]
      #2460815 - 06/14/08 10:59 PM

Quote:

For the most part however, the individual stars are very faint and do not excite the retina enough for it to detect color.




By dang, that's interesting. I'd have never thought of that. This whole thing is interesting. You would think, though, that with higher magnification in a small scope we would be able to see some color, unless it's getting washed out due to the power.

--------------------
--Dawg, the Russell

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David Knisely
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Astraforce Paul]
      #2461001 - 06/15/08 01:47 AM

I have seen a few globulars in a 30 inch show a faint overall orangish hue at lower powers. At high power, some of the brightest individual stars did show faint color, although these bright stars tended to be yellowish and pale orangish giant stars. Even in a 30 inch, they don't exactly blaze away like the bright stars Antares or Aldebaran seem to do. The colors tend to be pale pastels when they are visible at all. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
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nytecam
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Astraforce Paul]
      #2461545 - 06/15/08 12:39 PM

Quote:

But then I started thinking (and that's always dangerous!) and wondering, given how old the globs are, and thus how old their stars are, why globs aren't all reddish?!


Indeed it is globs, as a whole, tend to be cooler or reddish within the spectra of the individual stars but the effect visually is very slight - the few younger 'blue' stars within are called 'blue stragglers’.

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FirstSight
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: nytecam]
      #2461605 - 06/15/08 01:17 PM

I remember reading somewhere (sorry, don't have the source) that a large % of the stars in globular clusters are relatively lower-mass stars, i.e. lower than our sun, and therefore burn their nuclear fuel at a slower rate, and even at an age of ten billion years are still comfortably only middle-aged along the main sequence. A huge portion of stars within globulars that ever got hot enough to glow past red in the first place would still be more in the temperature range of yellow rather than having reached the late stages of life where they'd return to red as their core hydrogen fuel becomes exhausted.

This would also help explain the persistence of globular clusters today eons after the early days of our galaxy, despite their being relatively poor in raw material (gas, dust) from which to generate any truly brand-new stars, such as are still forming today within the Milky Way Galaxy itself in e.g. the Trapezium region of Orion.

--------------------
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palsing
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Astraforce Paul]
      #2461802 - 06/15/08 03:34 PM

Try this.

In the fall, when Sagittarius is high in the south at dusk, get M 22 in your eyepiece as soon as possible, even while the sky still has some blue in it.

Most of the stars in the globular will be almost invisible, but as it gets a little darker and darker, the red giants will start to pop out one by one before the other stars, and they are quite red in color.

This is a dramatic exercise and can be performed in just about any telescope.

Kent Wallace does this trick every year at CalStar using his 20" dob, and it is always a crowd-pleaser.

I suppose it would work with other globular clusters, too, but I've never tried it myself. I think I'll give it a try with M 13 in a couple of weeks at GSSP.

Speaking of GSSP (Golden State Star Party), if you can possible make it this year, we are going to have a great time, in some of the darkest skies left in California, or the entire US, for that matter.

--------------------
Paul
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Starman1
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: palsing]
      #2461946 - 06/15/08 05:18 PM

Red giants in M22:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050627.html

Red giants in M13:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000301.html

Red giants in NGC5139:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070419.html

All these pix show quite a few red giants.

--------------------
Don Pensack
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Astraforce Paul
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Starman1]
      #2465901 - 06/17/08 05:07 PM

I remain confused! (Not too hard for me on such matters! :-) )

Cooler stars, older stars, very slow burning stars are red-- red dwarfs, main sequence K, L, M type, etc. Their dominant output is red. Even if the individual stars are too faint to excite our color receptors, why wouldn't their combined light do so and be ruddy? Especially when it adds up to a mag 5 or 6 cluster!

There can't be many, if any, O, A, or B stars-- the blue bright blazing stars-- in a globular. They just don't last long enough.

The Color-Magnitude diagrams that show the main sequence are used to date clusters; they know how old the globs are because of the turn-off point, where the main sequence stops as the bright, fast-burning stars have inflated into red giants. There simply aren't any of the blue, bright burners left in the aged globs.

Where do the blue stragglers come from? Are they the result of stellar collisions? Or captured stars from elsewhere in the glob's host galaxy?

Love the pics of the red giants in the globs... they're all in the outskirts. Why? Or to put it another way, why is the core white? Of course, I have read some of the observing guides where a yellowish cast is seen, so maybe that's what's going on!

We'll have to try the globular at dusk trick sometime. Hmm... what would happen at dawn?


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Bill Weir
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Astraforce Paul]
      #2465932 - 06/17/08 05:23 PM

Then there's also the variables within them.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070415.html


Bill

--------------------
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Acheron
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Bill Weir]
      #2466056 - 06/17/08 06:19 PM

It looks like Christmas tree!

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tatarjj
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Acheron]
      #2466208 - 06/17/08 07:42 PM

I noticed a slightly orange hue in most of the brightest stars in M22 last week with my 25" scope.

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David Knisely
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Astraforce Paul]
      #2466266 - 06/17/08 08:11 PM

Paul R posted:

Quote:

Where do the blue stragglers come from? Are they the result of stellar collisions? Or captured stars from elsewhere in the glob's host galaxy?




These "blue stragglers" are thought to be due to stellar collisions or mergers. This increase in mass of a star can be enough to boost the fusion reaction rate and make the star hot enough to be somewhat bluer than many of the other lower-mass stars in the cluster. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
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Starman1
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Astraforce Paul]
      #2466370 - 06/17/08 09:02 PM

Quote:

I remain confused! (Not too hard for me on such matters! :-) )

Cooler stars, older stars, very slow burning stars are red-- red dwarfs, main sequence K, L, M type, etc. Their dominant output is red. Even if the individual stars are too faint to excite our color receptors, why wouldn't their combined light do so and be ruddy? Especially when it adds up to a mag 5 or 6 cluster!

There can't be many, if any, O, A, or B stars-- the blue bright blazing stars-- in a globular. They just don't last long enough.

The Color-Magnitude diagrams that show the main sequence are used to date clusters; they know how old the globs are because of the turn-off point, where the main sequence stops as the bright, fast-burning stars have inflated into red giants. There simply aren't any of the blue, bright burners left in the aged globs.

Where do the blue stragglers come from? Are they the result of stellar collisions? Or captured stars from elsewhere in the glob's host galaxy?

Love the pics of the red giants in the globs... they're all in the outskirts. Why? Or to put it another way, why is the core white? Of course, I have read some of the observing guides where a yellowish cast is seen, so maybe that's what's going on!

We'll have to try the globular at dusk trick sometime. Hmm... what would happen at dawn?



David answered about the blue stragglers.
Why is the core white? Most of the mass is at/near the center. Stars are close together there. what we see is the aggregate light of thousands of stars mixed together.
The resultant light is more full-spectrum than an individual star might be.
In the outer parts of the cluster, the stars are well separated and individual characteristics show.
Don't forget that all stars have light at all frequencies, but that older stars have less blue and ultraviolet in their spectra. An individual star may show an orange or salmon-colored appearance, while a group of them will appear more yellow. Compare the color of Omega Centauri to a rich open cluster like M11, and you'll see the spectrum is heavily slanted to the yellow in Omega Centauri.
If you look at the reflected light from Antares in color photographs you'll see the reflected light appears yellow, not red.

--------------------
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David Culp
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Starman1]
      #2466461 - 06/17/08 09:47 PM

Red giants in Omega Centauri: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080501.html

--------------------
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phanfave
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: David Culp]
      #2466643 - 06/17/08 11:28 PM

This is a very interestng thread. Thanks everyone.

Sean

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PeterSurma
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Astraforce Paul]
      #2467959 - 06/18/08 04:52 PM

Hi all,
let me add something to the discussion - just look at the CM-diagram of the GC M13 here:
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1993A%26AS..102..397G/0000400.000.html?high=481c5f268324864

You'll find that except the very few brightest stars, its population isn't that much red really. Looking at the B-V values + remembering B-V = 0.65 is solar you find: all the stars above this value are actually 'white' to our eyes. I guess GC don't look really red, because they have not so many stars that are MUCH redder than the sun.

In addition you also see that the bend away from the main sequence (MS) happens slightly left of solar. So stars like the sun are just now starting to move away from the MS in M13.

In fact the most prominent giants of M13 are of course pretty red, but these are only some individuals and NOT the big bulk of stars. Also note that even a 20" scope visually only sees stars down to 17mag in this plot here !

Peter

--------------------
Peter

Web: http://www.eyes4skies.de/home_EnglishVersion.htm
Scopes: From 3inch photographic APO to 20inch f/4 Dob


Edited by PeterSurma (06/19/08 10:30 AM)


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Illinois
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Reged: 12/18/06
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: PeterSurma]
      #2468018 - 06/18/08 05:15 PM

Very interesting!
I don't even know that there's some red stars in globulars. I always think that red stars is giant and much bigger than our sun that can't fit in globulars!
What about green stars? Is green out there that our eyes can't see green?

--------------------
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David Knisely
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Illinois]
      #2468042 - 06/18/08 05:24 PM

Quote:

Very interesting!
I don't even know that there's some red stars in globulars. I always think that red stars is giant and much bigger than our sun that can't fit in globulars!
What about green stars? Is green out there that our eyes can't see green?




No, there are no really green stars, as the light from stars is a continuum which would mix with the green light wavelengths and prevent the green from standing out. A bluish star sitting right next to a yellow or orange one sometimes tends to look a little bluish-green to some people (especially in smaller apertures), but this is kind of a visual illusion. Some planetary nebulae do look a little greenish however, and that is mainly due to the Oxygen III emission lines, which *are* a bluish-green color. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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Illinois
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #2469634 - 06/19/08 11:22 AM

David K,

Thanks!

--------------------
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Member of IDA, let's fight light pollution!

Old Edmund 6"F8...donated to cousins
Super Polaris C8...donated to Byron Observatory in Illinois


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Illinois]
      #2475410 - 06/22/08 04:07 AM

The blue stragglers are indeed most likely the result of mergers between formerly very close binaries. The more massive resultant star is given a new lease on life with the increase in fuel. It burns hotter and bluer than did the former singletons, which is why they were for some time an enigma to astronomers because they seemed so out of character. A small percentage of open clusters also contain one or more blue stragglers. They are found in the C-M diagram in the roughly v-shaped region bounded by the main sequence on the left and the giant branch on the right, and generally are no brighter than about 2.5 magnitudes above the turn-off.

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Astraforce Paul
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #2475676 - 06/22/08 09:55 AM

Thanks for the continued comments... I looked at those C-M diagrams and was shocked to see how fat, bloated, and indistinct they are! The ones I've seen before, e.g. in Burnham's and various astro textbooks, have much less dispersion--and what's left of the main sequence is quite obvious! Indeed there's so much variation in color that it makes me wonder about the C-M relationship itself!

Now, back to an analysis of what's there... even if the turn off point is around that of the Sun, meaning at yellow stars, it still indicates that there are no, or few, O and B type hot white-blue stars. And the bulk of the stars lie below the Sun's spectral type of G, and hence are redder!

Now, here's the thing... I understand that the stars are radiating at all wavelengths... even the red ones... but if the dominant output of a star is in the redder parts of the spectrum, why is their combined output not the same?

A thought experiment, if I had a cluster of T Lyra or carbon stars, deep red, wouldn't the combined light be RED not white? Or if I have had several dozen Arcturuses or Betegueses wouldn't their combined light still be orangish-red?

Now, I can understand how this works for a galaxy... even if most of the stars are redder in a galaxy (most stars are long-lived red dwarfs or main sequence ruddier colored stars), those are the fainter ones, and the brightest stars are blue white and so that their color would dominant the combined light and end up being whiter (or at least pale yellow). Maybe something similar is going on with the globs, meaning that their remaining main sequence F and G stars have greater combined output than the red ones? Nah, can't believe that!


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Starman1
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Astraforce Paul]
      #2475768 - 06/22/08 10:46 AM

OK, look at it this way:
Your eye has low sensitivity to red frequencies, and high sensitivity to blue-green frequencies.
Though a reddish star emits most of its energy in the orange-red-infrared part of the spectrum, it still emits light in the green-yellow end of the spectrum.
When you look at such a star through a telescope, that star will appear yellowish because that's where your eye is most sensitive.
Add to that the fact that our night vision shifts the greatest sensitivity of the eye toward the blue (from 550nm to about 500nm), so we lose even more red sensitivity at night (which is why we can use red LED flashlights without significantly damaging our night vision).
Then, put together a large number of stars, each of which has a fair amount of output in the green-yellow, and, at best, we will see such a group of stars that is somewhat yellowish (as in pictures of globular clusters or the stars in the cores of galaxies).
But, the eye will combine all the light frequencies into a perception of white light, though missing some of its blue output.
Even through a telescope, Antares appears redder than most stars.
But, in the scheme of stellar evolution, a star spends relatively little time in its red giant phase. It spends correspondingly more time as a main sequence star or as a white dwarf after the red giant phase is over. So, the odds are that in any large group of stars of nearly the same age, you have a low likelihood of catching a significant number of them in the red giant phase. That corner of the HR diagram actually has more stars in it, in a typical globular cluster, than in general in space, yet it is still not an appreciable portion of the stars in the cluster at any one given time.

Then, add to all that the idea that globular clusters formed from gas clouds that were essentially primordial, so that the stars formed entirely of hydrogen (75%) and helium (25%) and no heavier elements. Such stars would have cores that would take longer to arrive at the heavier elements that lead to the burning of heavier elements (such as the carbon cycle in the core of our sun), so would have extended lifetimes over equivalently massive stars that formed in a second generation gas cloud containing a lot of heavier elements.

And, billions of years down the road, the most massive stars would all be gone, leaving the stars of lesser mass to shine on.

So when we look at a globular cluster, we see mostly the less massive stars that have not yet entered the red giant phase, a smattering of stars in the red giant phase, and a small amount of light from the dwarf stars we know are there, but which are also very blue. The massive blue stars, or blue stragglers as they are called, likely formed from collisions and so number only a small percentage of all stars seen.

I hope that all that I've said helps explain why we see a globular cluster as white, with perhaps a little yellowish bias.

Imaging, as you can see from pictures, catches a lot more of the red giants, but even in the images they are not a large percentage of the stars seen. Nor will they ever be.

--------------------
Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov, Fujinon Binos
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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Starman1]
      #2476981 - 06/22/08 11:06 PM

A couple of assitional points...

1) Because globulars, having formed in the Early universe, have a smaller fraction of heavy elements than younger stars (particularly those of the Galaxy's disk), their spectra are much less "cluttered" with absorption lines. Less line blanketing, particular at shorter wavelengths, results in a stellar surface that is a bit bluer, the effect increasing as heavy element content goes down.

2) In spite of the very much larger numbers of low-mass red dwarfs, their feeble output, even combined, is really miniscule when compared to the stars near the turn-off (where the main-sequence terminates at the bright end, and stars are rapidly transitioning red-ward to gianthood.) An early M-dwarf at absolute magnitude +15 is 10 magnitudes, or 10,000 times fainter than a sun-like star. So just a single early G star near the turn-off puts out as much light at 10,000 stars two spectral types below (early M).

--------------------
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PeterSurma
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Reged: 08/24/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #2482207 - 06/25/08 12:19 PM

Hi Glenn,

well interesting discussion indeed ! You are, of course, right about the line blanketing, because GC metallicity is so low (very few metals, typically 10-1% of the solar value). However, looking at the C-M diagram I think this effect naturally vanishes, because you are in fact measuring colour in here (B-V) ! So based on the CM evidence it seems at least a valid and good question why all the stars redder than 0.65 are not making these things pretty 'red'.

I think it's a combination of several things, including the spectral response in the human eye. Are we seeing colours very often when observing ? Well, generally no, right ?! -because the detection cell type changes to black-and-white detection when going to faint light levels. So you need high light levels to see colours anyway.

A very well (!) colour-calibrated foto taken from a GC will show red and yellow population. (Human eyes have a hard time seeing colour at these levels anyway). It might even show some blue population. See the CM-diagram I mentioned above. Colour calibration is often NOT done so well (but optimized for 'prettyness' only).

Check the links that were posted above for M13 and check for comparison e.g. this one: http://www.concentric.net/~richmann/m13w.htm
I would say, it's also not extremely well-calibrated. But at least you see a little bit clearer the red giant sticking out of a litlle bit bluer (well those weaker stars should be yellow, I suppose) population. Of course we should also see some (not many!) of the blue Horiziontal branch (HB) stars, that you can see in the left part of the CM at roughly m=15, B-V=0. The foto here is too bluish I'd say (at least at low light levels), while it seems a bit to red than reality at high levels... It does not seem extremely consistent to me, but fine-tuned with right result in mind.

Best wishes,
Peter

--------------------
Peter

Web: http://www.eyes4skies.de/home_EnglishVersion.htm
Scopes: From 3inch photographic APO to 20inch f/4 Dob


Edited by PeterSurma (06/25/08 12:33 PM)


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PeterSurma
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Reged: 08/24/06
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Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: Astraforce Paul]
      #2482228 - 06/25/08 12:30 PM

Hi Paul,

the non-visibility of the main sequence in the CM diagram above is simply of observational/instrumental origin. Just check the m scale. Photometry for this instrument seems to have gotten real hard below 20mag-levels. So there are no valid data down there. The MS is down there ...

The fuzziness might be due to several things and might need very detailed discussion (from crowded fields = instrumental effects to physical - e.g. metallicity - effects). Text books tend (and have) to simplify things.

Peter

--------------------
Peter

Web: http://www.eyes4skies.de/home_EnglishVersion.htm
Scopes: From 3inch photographic APO to 20inch f/4 Dob


Edited by PeterSurma (06/25/08 12:35 PM)


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: PeterSurma]
      #2483521 - 06/25/08 11:15 PM

From my experience, stars only begin to show what I'd call an orange-ish hue when B-V > 1.0-1.1 (Arcturus is 1.23). Depending on degree of redness, I can see color down to about 4.5m naked eye, with the redder stars having perceptible color at slightly fainter magnitudes. To see the color of a very distant and hence faint star in my telescope, I would expect that it would have to appear at least as bright in the eyepiece. This is why it takes something like a 16" or larger 'scope to see the colors of the red giants in the nearer globulars.

Even though a globular might contain a great many stars redder than B-V > 1, I stress again that their combined light is feeble, being swamped by the output of the fewer but individually *much* brighter yellow-ish stars. And this color is so subtle that even if the surface brightness of a globular were high enough, to the eye it would appear as no more than off-white.

--------------------
Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces

My Gallery (mostly DIY stuff)

Simple minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas. - Hyman Rickover


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ForgottenMObject
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #2486264 - 06/27/08 12:09 PM

You're probably more likely to see a globular cluster as faintly yellow-ish grey, sort of like the color of straw in the winter, vs. true red or orange, IMHO. Deep sky objects are usually very subtle in coloring.

--------------------
Matthew
IDA member
XT8i, 10x50 binoculars, lots of eyepieces


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dvb
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: ForgottenMObject]
      #2492764 - 07/01/08 01:03 AM

As globs are very old (12B years old) proto-galaxies formed not so long after the Big Bang (13.75B years), what interests me is why they aren't red-shifted; that is, vastly far away and retreating from us.

--------------------
By day the universe is like a kiss,
at night the deep transparent skies

carry us upwards, outwards, into space.
Lie on your back on cooling grass and stare.
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David Knisely
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Re: Why aren't globulars red? new [Re: dvb]
      #2492814 - 07/01/08 01:42 AM

Quote:

As globs are very old (12B years old) proto-galaxies formed not so long after the Big Bang (13.75B years), what interests me is why they aren't red-shifted; that is, vastly far away and retreating from us.




Well, first of all, not all globulars are quite that old, although many of them tend to be. The youngest may only be about 6.5 billion years of age, while others will be in the 10 to 13.5 billion year range. Second, the high red-shift is caused by the expansion of the universe and is only seen in relatively distant objects like far away galaxies or distant galaxy clusters. Close to home, objects like the globular clusters of our Milky Way are gravitationally bound to our galaxy, so they do not participate in the cosmological expansion and subsequent extreme red-shift exhibited by the most distant objects in our universe. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org


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