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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 11674
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
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Last night I was at one of the better nearby dark sites, if a location at a distance of 42 miles can be considered nearby, along with four fellow observers. Two drove to the summit of the mountain, while three of us opted for a lower site that is far more sheltered from the wind, which was quite gusty at times. The transparency was good, particularly so early in the session, and the seeing was variable.
One of my goals was to give a certain celebrated deep-sky object another go with my Zambuto-powered 8" f/6 Starsplitter Tube Dob. Not long after I arrived I trained my scope in the requisite direction. Orion was just past the meridian at the time. I spent at least 15 minutes scanning the area using a borrowed H-beta filter and I'm reasonably certain that I did indeed detect Barnard 33, the Horsehead Nebula, through my 8" scope. Previously, the smallest aperture that I've successfully observed this famous dark nebula with was an old 13.1" Coulter Dob at Cherry Springs State Park, a location considerably darker than the Peters Mountain site.
NGC 2024, the Flame Nebula, was straightforward and IC 434, the emission nebula that B33 juts into, was fairly easy to see but I couldn't make out the Horsehead until I darkened the field by completely surrounding the eyepiece with my hood and gloves. I noted a very elusive notch exactly where B33 should be four or five times for a span of several seconds.
Dave Mitsky
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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 12486
Loc: Los Angeles
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Veni, vidi, vici.
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Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov, Fujinon Binos
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member
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7331Peg
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/01/08
Posts: 969
Loc: North coast of Oregon
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I've seen the notch in the nebula many times, including the last two nights (the Flame Nebula was fantastic Monday night). But I've literally spent hours over the past few months trying to actually make out the silhouette of the Horsehead with no luck. I came close a couple of times, but not close enough to actually say I saw it clearly. I've used a TV102, a TMB130, and a C11, all with and without a Lumicon hydrogen-beta filter, using a 31mm Nagler, a 20mm Nagler, a 17mm Nagler, a 13mm Ethos, and an 8mm Ethos.
Has anyone actually SEEN the actual silhouette of the Horsehead?
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Mike Harvey
professor emeritus
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 716
Loc: Orlando, FL.
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Quote:
Has anyone actually SEEN the actual silhouette of the Horsehead?
Yes...numerous times...but all "seeing/transparency-dependent". In addition, I always use an h-Beta filter.
It's interesting that one of the two or three "all time best" was with a 10" Newtonian in exceptional skies at Chiefland several years ago! For about 20 minutes the view was similar to long-exposure images. After that window, the HH became just a dark indentation and, shortly thereafter - couldn't be seen at all!
With the 28" it is nearly always "visible" but only on really good nights does it show the true horse's head silhoutte.
With a Mallincam attached to even an 8" scope, the "near-real-time" (14 sec.) view on the monitor screen looks very much like long-exposure photos.
In the 28", it is nothing short of "Hubble-like", with a great amount of inner structure easily visible as well as at least 5 stars either embedded in or in front of the 'head'.
Mike Harvey
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8798
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
I've seen the notch in the nebula many times, including the last two nights (the Flame Nebula was fantastic Monday night). But I've literally spent hours over the past few months trying to actually make out the silhouette of the Horsehead with no luck. I came close a couple of times, but not close enough to actually say I saw it clearly. I've used a TV102, a TMB130, and a C11, all with and without a Lumicon hydrogen-beta filter, using a 31mm Nagler, a 20mm Nagler, a 17mm Nagler, a 13mm Ethos, and an 8mm Ethos.
Has anyone actually SEEN the actual silhouette of the Horsehead?
I see the "snout" portion start to come out in my 9.25 inch SCT, and have seen the profile with averted vision in my 10 inch Newtonian, although it is often fairly marginal. As for the "notch" of the Horsehead, I have seen that in a scope as small as a 100mm f/6 refractor, although it did require the use of the H-Beta filter. Clear skies to you.
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David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 11674
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
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At the 1995 Winter Star Party, B33 looked almost photographic through Tom Clark's original 36" f/5 Yard Scope.
I've also seen the Horsehead through a MallinCam, which was attached to an 18" Obsession, and the view was quite impressive.
My attempts at spotting the Horsehead with my 101mm Tele Vue refractor have all proven negative.
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1532
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Very impressive. I've never been 100% sure I've seen it in my 8". I think I got it one exceptionally transparent night - but other attempts at it with my 8" were solidly negative.
I was never really sure I'd seen it until I looked at it in a 12".
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Phillip Creed
Idiot Seeking Village
Reged: 07/25/06
Posts: 1333
Loc: Canton, OH
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That's what it's all about, folks--taking your equipment and pushing it to its limits.
Dave, how dark was your site, either on the Bortle scale or the LP map?
The H-Beta wavelength (486-nm) is shorter (bluer) than the 507-nm peak of human night vision. Shorter wavelengths are extinguished more than than longer ones, so the chances of seeing the Horsehead Nebula is particularly sensitive to transparency.
Clear Skies,
Phil
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"The hopeful depend on a world without end, whatever the hopeless may say"--Rush, "Manhattan Project"
Wilderness Center Astronomy Club member since 1995
ICQ Comet Observer Code: CRE01
*****
(1) 12" f/4.9 Skywatcher Collapsible Dobsonian
(2) Celestron 150mm f/5 Omni Refractor
(3) Oberwerk 15x70 Binoculars
(4) Minimalist Eyepiece Set:
"23"-mm Axiom LX (~24mm; long story...)
13mm Nagler Type 6
9mm Nagler Type 6
7mm Nagler Type 6
1.75X Siebert Barlow
*****
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Achernar
Postmaster
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 5211
Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
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From dark sites, I have no trouble seeing NGC-2024 and IC-434 with my 10-inch and a H-beta filter. I usually see the Horsehead, but the shape is indistinct but definite. Without a filter, I have a hard time seeing IC-434, but through an 18-inch with no filter it and the Horsehead are easy to see. The outline is very definite and impossible to miss. The Horsehead definitely benefits from both very dark skies and as much aperture as you can throw at it.
Taras
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15-inch F/4.5 Dob under construction
10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
4 1/4-inch F/4 Homebuilt reflector
A whole bunch of eyepieces, filters and other accessories....
One curious cat
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galaxyman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/04/05
Posts: 1539
Loc: Limerick, Pa
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Quote:
That's what it's all about, folks--taking your equipment and pushing it to its limits.
Dave, how dark was your site, either on the Bortle scale or the LP map?
The H-Beta wavelength (486-nm) is shorter (bluer) than the 507-nm peak of human night vision. Shorter wavelengths are extinguished more than than longer ones, so the chances of seeing the Horsehead Nebula is particularly sensitive to transparency.
Clear Skies,
Phil
Hey Phil
The site is a class 4 on the Bortle scale, though the nearby site I was at on real good night is a 3.5
The site Dave was at is around 1250 ft elevation, and the higher elevation site I was at (1.2 miles away) is about 1700 ft elevation. The problem with the darker site can be winds though. The lower site is a bit more wind protected, which I and another CAS member with his 20" Obsession should have used that night. My 8" refractor was for the most part fine at the summit, but the large dob did not fair as well.
The weather services did say winds would die down that night, but they actually got a little worse as the night went on.
This area is as dark most of us (CAS members and friends) would consider a one night stand.
Karl
E.O.H.
Chesmont Astronomical Society
Telekit (Swayze optics) 22" F/4.5 Dob
Homemade (Parks Optics) 12.5" F/4.8 Dob
TMB 8" F/9 Refractor”The Beast”. One great achro
Astrozap 6" f/8 Refractor. Another fine achro
Orion 4" f/6 Refractor. Also not bad for an achro
Celestron 10x60mm Binos
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So many galaxies, so little time!
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Jeff Morgan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/28/03
Posts: 2081
Loc: Prescott, AZ
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Quote:
Has anyone actually SEEN the actual silhouette of the Horsehead?
Yes, and knowing what to look for is everything. I was at the Winter Star Party and the guy next to me (can't recall the name, but his 22" Newtonian was known as "The Bat Scope") showed it to me. I was then immediately able to pick it up in my 10" f/9 Newtonian, no filters.
I use the broken line of four stars immediately north to frame it. It forms a nice 30-60-90 triangle with the second and third stars in that line. It is much smaller than you are probably expecting. And once you find it, it is not a given that you can get it again on subsequent nights. Here in Arizona at 5300 MSL I have only managed it once this winter in my 12.5" f/6.
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Jeff Morgan
Prescott, AZ
Wile E. Coyote School of Telescope Making
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 11674
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
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Phil,
The CSC Light Pollution Map portrays the site as a yellow zone but I have to believe that it's darker than that, somewhere in the vicinity of a visual limiting magnitude of 6.3 to 6.4.
There are somewhat darker areas to the west of Peters Mountain that some ASH members including me observe from and one even farther west that CAS and ASH members have used.
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 11674
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
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Quote:
The Horsehead definitely benefits from both very dark skies and as much aperture as you can throw at it.
Observing it from a southerly latitude doesn't hurt either, of course.
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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7331Peg
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/01/08
Posts: 969
Loc: North coast of Oregon
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Quote:
Quote:
Has anyone actually SEEN the actual silhouette of the Horsehead?
Yes, and knowing what to look for is everything. I was at the Winter Star Party and the guy next to me (can't recall the name, but his 22" Newtonian was known as "The Bat Scope") showed it to me. I was then immediately able to pick it up in my 10" f/9 Newtonian, no filters.
I use the broken line of four stars immediately north to frame it. It forms a nice 30-60-90 triangle with the second and third stars in that line. It is much smaller than you are probably expecting. And once you find it, it is not a given that you can get it again on subsequent nights. Here in Arizona at 5300 MSL I have only managed it once this winter in my 12.5" f/6.
I know the area you're referring to. I've drawn a sketch of the area from a photo to use as a reference. As I mentioned, the notch is easy to see, but the head is very elusive. From reading the other posts, I may have to give in one of these days and up the aperture to something on the order of an 18" dob.
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BillFerris
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 2983
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Here's a link to observations I've made with 10 and 18 inch apertures: B33-Horsehead Nebula. The 10 inch was a Meade Starfinder equatorial with good--not great--optics. The 18 inch observation was with my Obsession, which has excellent optics. From a dark and transparent site, the Horsehead should consistently be visible, unfiltered, in a quality 18 inch aperture. Adding the H-beta to the optical chain should reveal the full profile to which this object owes its nickname.
Bill in Flag
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Has anyone actually SEEN the actual silhouette of the Horsehead?
Yes, and knowing what to look for is everything. I was at the Winter Star Party and the guy next to me (can't recall the name, but his 22" Newtonian was known as "The Bat Scope") showed it to me. I was then immediately able to pick it up in my 10" f/9 Newtonian, no filters.
I use the broken line of four stars immediately north to frame it. It forms a nice 30-60-90 triangle with the second and third stars in that line. It is much smaller than you are probably expecting. And once you find it, it is not a given that you can get it again on subsequent nights. Here in Arizona at 5300 MSL I have only managed it once this winter in my 12.5" f/6.
I know the area you're referring to. I've drawn a sketch of the area from a photo to use as a reference. As I mentioned, the notch is easy to see, but the head is very elusive. From reading the other posts, I may have to give in one of these days and up the aperture to something on the order of an 18" dob.
--------------------
Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold
18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon
Cosmic Voyage
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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 12486
Loc: Los Angeles
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My last trip out with the 12.5", the HH was visible as a notch in the faint nebula without a filter. But when I added the H-Beta filter, the notch took on a shape not unlike the profile of my VW GTI. I laughed about that for several days.
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Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov, Fujinon Binos
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member
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BillFerris
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 2983
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Quote:
My last trip out with the 12.5", the HH was visible as a notch in the faint nebula without a filter. But when I added the H-Beta filter, the notch took on a shape not unlike the profile of my VW GTI. I laughed about that for several days.
Thanks, Don. I won't be able to get that one out of my head for awhile 
Bill in Flag
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Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold
18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon
Cosmic Voyage
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Jeff Morgan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/28/03
Posts: 2081
Loc: Prescott, AZ
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Before I came across this thread yesterday, I had already made the decision to observe with my 80 mm APO, based on the projected 2/5 seeing for Prescott. So I thought, why try for the HH with a small APO?
The seeing was actually better than forecast, transparency perhaps 4/5. I got warmed up on a few other targets. In Auriga I picked up the Flaming Star I405. In working my way down the bright Messier clusters, I noted two dark nebula; B226 and B34. They are located between M36 and M37. Of the two, B33 stood out easily, I missed B226. Moving over to the Rosette, the northwest portions were very easy, and with some work I traced the outer edges. The central portion of the WitchHead I2118 revealed itself quickly. This was turning out to be a productive night.
So, I felt ready to tackle the HorseHead. Using my alignment stars and upping the magnification (70x with a 8 Radian) I knew I was on the correct spot. After several minutes, something illusive seemed to be there, but it was emission if anything. And even then, it was elusive. I started to see something that looked like a round white glow, it was obvious then that I had fatigued my eye.
So, no success on the small APO. Perhaps I will put filters on the acquisition list. I think I will try again tonight using the 12.5 Dob and Bill's "stair step" asterism.
--------------------
Jeff Morgan
Prescott, AZ
Wile E. Coyote School of Telescope Making
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8798
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
Before I came across this thread yesterday, I had already made the decision to observe with my 80 mm APO, based on the projected 2/5 seeing for Prescott. So I thought, why try for the HH with a small APO?
The seeing was actually better than forecast, transparency perhaps 4/5. I got warmed up on a few other targets. In Auriga I picked up the Flaming Star I405. In working my way down the bright Messier clusters, I noted two dark nebula; B226 and B34. They are located between M36 and M37. Of the two, B33 stood out easily, I missed B226. Moving over to the Rosette, the northwest portions were very easy, and with some work I traced the outer edges. The central portion of the WitchHead I2118 revealed itself quickly. This was turning out to be a productive night.
So, I felt ready to tackle the HorseHead. Using my alignment stars and upping the magnification (70x with a 8 Radian) I knew I was on the correct spot. After several minutes, something illusive seemed to be there, but it was emission if anything. And even then, it was elusive. I started to see something that looked like a round white glow, it was obvious then that I had fatigued my eye.
So, no success on the small APO. Perhaps I will put filters on the acquisition list. I think I will try again tonight using the 12.5 Dob and Bill's "stair step" asterism.
The round white glow may have been the nebula NGC 2023 which is just a hair east of the Horsehead. Clear skies to you.
--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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7331Peg
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/01/08
Posts: 969
Loc: North coast of Oregon
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The 18 inch Obsession was exactly what I had in mind on my earlier post. Very nice sketch on your web page of the HH - just subtle enough that it doesn't jump off the screen, similar to what you would expect in the eyepiece.
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