John M
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 571
Loc: Mesa/Tucson, AZ
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This is my first post but I am really not new to the forum as I have been lurking for a couple of months.
The day today in Phoenix was incredibly clear. A light wind blew all of the dust/pollution out of the valley. I was antisipating a great evening. Needless to say the seeing closed in just after I got set up. Still I wanted to try M33 for the second time. Last time I tried I could not locate a trace of it. Even with the seeing not being perfect I thought with the clear skies I had a chance. I do have moderate light pollution in my backyard but can block out the direct light. Is M33 a dark sky object? What woudl M33 look like compared to M31 in my moderatly light polluted area? I realize it is large and diffuse, but it seems to me that I should be able to see it from my backyard even with the light pollution.
I am using an 8" Skyview Pro (1000mm f4.9) and I currently don't have any filters for deep sky viewing.
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John M
Mesa/Tucson, AZ
8" Sky View Pro Newt
90mm Meade 386D Refractor
60 mm Monlux Refractor
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I've spotted the core in my scope under 5th magish skys, but it was at the threshhold of visibility, no hint of the arms was detectable. Filters won't do much for anything except nebula and planets. Broadband filters are near useless visually, they're supposed to help photographicly though. Galaxies and star clusters emit at all wavelenghts as won't benefit from narrow bandpass of nebula filters.
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John M
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 571
Loc: Mesa/Tucson, AZ
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Thanks for the reply Dan. I plan to try again this weekend at our deep sky party in the middle of the desert.
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John M
Mesa/Tucson, AZ
8" Sky View Pro Newt
90mm Meade 386D Refractor
60 mm Monlux Refractor
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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M33 is a dark sky object and smaller than M31. It is about as difficult for me to see as M101 though a bit brighter.
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miniventures
Something Else
Reged: 09/13/03
Posts: 11054
Loc: Powell Butte, Central Oregon
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I've seen M33 several times--most often with my 8 X 40 binoculars. I have seen it twice with a 12.5" dob with a 55mm eyepiece and it was mostly the core of the galaxy. There were wisps of possible arms but can't say for sure. LarryC
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LarryC
Volunteer
http://www.sunrivernaturecenter.org
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matt
Vendor (Scopemania)
Reged: 07/28/03
Posts: 10022
Loc: Chaville, France
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"M33" and "moderate light pollution" don't go together.
I also believe that it is easier to see it with binoculars than with a telescope.
My rule of thumb is: if you can't see M31 with the naked eye, you won't see M33.
Even in the 16", I have a hard time discerning the arms. It's more an ensemble of patches of light than a clear spiral pattern. It's hard to trace an arm all the way.
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Matt
CI700 mount with various scopes on top.
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Blair
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/07/03
Posts: 1163
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I have some light pollution, 52 year old eyes, and I have seen a circular haze with 11X70mm Oberwerk binocs. Sometimes the haze is brighter. But the only reason I found it the first time is I had a detailed print out from the TheSKy program of the star pattern around it and after about 30 minutes of dark adapting and constant looking I found it. Some nights it is easy to spot, some nights no matter how hard I look I can't see it. It is more difficult to find than the Dumbell Nebula.
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michaeloconnell
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/18/03
Posts: 963
Loc: Ireland
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Anyone here seen M33 with the naked eye.?
Needless to say it's a little difficult - you won't spot it as soon as u hop out the backdoor. But a good clear night in a dark site should do the trick. Will require plenty of adverted vision though.
Michael
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Michael
www.astroshot.com
Gemini G41 Observatory+ Mount, Meade 16" SCT OTA, TEC140 Apo, 16" ATM Dob, Pentax75 SDHF, PST Ha, PST Cak.
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Scott Beith
SRF
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 33042
Loc: Gulfport, MS
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Michael,
Possibly, can't confirm. I once saw a slight haze (with averted vision) where it should be - but I don't know. That was also the night when M-31 was extended (naked eye - direct vision) and not just a small glow.
Scott
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  Scott
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
"The measure of a man’s greatness is not determined by what he accomplishes for himself, but by what he accomplishes for others.” -- Some Bald Guy
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michaeloconnell
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/18/03
Posts: 963
Loc: Ireland
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Sounds like it alright. There is also a mag 5.94 nearby. If you barely glimpsed a star then this is probably what u saw. However, M33 is a large duffuse faint object and adverted vision would be able to differenciate between the two, so it sounds like you were successful.
It's worth also trying to find the sweet spot in your adverted vision - which part of the eye is more sensitive to adverted light than the rest. Personally, if I place the target at the 3 o'clock position relative to where the centre of my eye is looking, I find I can detect fainter objects. Anyone else tried this??
Michael
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Michael
www.astroshot.com
Gemini G41 Observatory+ Mount, Meade 16" SCT OTA, TEC140 Apo, 16" ATM Dob, Pentax75 SDHF, PST Ha, PST Cak.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Yes,
I saw it last Nov.(naked eye) while in Missouri at a very dark rural site. The NELM at zenith was ~6.5. M33 could be seen as a faint nebulous patch. It was absolutely stunning in the 17.5". Very mottled and extended detail visible at low power (64x 35mm Pan). NGC 604 actually showed a little stucture as well at higher power (280x 8mm TV plossl), and responded well to the OIII filter. It was a sight I will not soon forget  .
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matt
Vendor (Scopemania)
Reged: 07/28/03
Posts: 10022
Loc: Chaville, France
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Charles, what kind of structure do you see on NGC 604? I can barely make out a 'rounded rectangle' shape, a little like the Little Dumbbell, but STRUCTURE?
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Matt
CI700 mount with various scopes on top.
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John M
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 571
Loc: Mesa/Tucson, AZ
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Thanks for the input. I am heading out to a dark sky site this Saturday and I will try M33 again. I will report my findings next week.
It is just amazing how fast seeing conditions can change here in the Valley of the Sun. When I started to set up last night I could see more stars with the porch lights on then I normally can see with them off. But by the time I was set up and ate dinner, the conditions had changed dramatically back to normal. We have another "Blue Sky" day here again, but I suspect once the wind dies down after sunset, the conditions will return to normal again.
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John M
Mesa/Tucson, AZ
8" Sky View Pro Newt
90mm Meade 386D Refractor
60 mm Monlux Refractor
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Charles, what kind of structure do you see on NGC 604?
Matt,
It seemed clumpy and textured. Nothing real striking, but there nevertheless. When you looked at it were you using your 16"? It actually looked like a comet to me at low power initially, sort of ovalish seeming to be in front of M33. There were several other regions (HII?) that were visible as well that I thought I could see.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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At my latitude, M33 passes directly overhead. I have seen it as a small, faint fuzzy patch with 8x21 binoculars, when stars to 5.6 magnitude are visible.
I have not seen it naked eye or with telescope.
Bill
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12565
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I was out over this past weekend with 3 binoculars. Fuj16x70, Fuj10x70 and Pentax16x60. Saw M33 in all three, but just barely. NELM varied between 4.7 and 5.1 throughtout the night. I've seen it better in my Orion 10x50s, but on a night when NELM was maybe 5.6-5.8.
It was definitely an averted vision object. And yes there is a sweet spot for averted vision. I always know it when I'm out there, but don't remember right now where the orientation of my sweet spot is.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Mine is usually when looking toward my nose rather than looking outward.
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bierbelly
Postmaster
Reged: 01/23/04
Posts: 5434
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who has trouble finding this (M33). That's part of what has motivated me to get a GOTO mount...guess it won't help much with M33, huh? I've also been looking for M51 FOREVER, and can't catch even a hint of it... 
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12" DSH
8" f/4 Vega MakNewt
6" MN66
TV85
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Echo
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/29/03
Posts: 3320
Loc: So Cal
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What magnification are you using? I can see M51 quite well from here in town.
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Queen of GOTO
Life is short.... get a massage!
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Charlie Fisher
member
Reged: 06/28/03
Posts: 38
Loc: Tampa, FL USA
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John M, et al,
I saw M33 for the first time this Friday and Saturday at a pretty dark site in West Central Florida on the Gulf of Mexico (Cedar Key). I principally used Fuji 16X70 FMT-SX bins, hand held, flat on my back. I had tried for M33 probably 15 times from my very light polluted urban backyard in Tampa and never saw it until at this dark location. I found it in about 15 seconds, which I estimate was 1/4500 of the total time I had expended trying to find this object cumulatively from my bright backyard.
From a dark location it popped out immediately. Not exactly sure what the NELM was, but the winter Milky Way was easily visible from Orion all the way through Cassiopeia. M31 was naked eye of course, and the Double Cluster was naked eye visible as a bright knot in the Milky Way between Perseus and Cass. So many stars were visible in the bins that the view of the Double Cluster was unnervingly different from the view in my backyard... I had a binocular double take, and had to look again to make sure I was actually seeing this familiar object. The two were imbedded in a sea of stars, versus fairly alone in my previous LP'd viewing experience.
M81/82 was a snap handheld with the Fujis those nights. They are usually a struggle poring through a bright background and with few naked eye reference stars nearby (at least in my bright backyard, there is nothing visible nearby). The Auriga open clusters, which can also be difficult from my backyard, I also found easily and showed to my wife (not an astro type at all), who also found all three of them right away: boom, boom boom, M36,37,38. M1 was also located with no fuss, among many others.
I also had an 80mm Pentax ED spotter with me... don't get me started on what M42 looked like from there with a tripod mounted 80mm scope versus my 8in Dob in LP. I only wished I had dragged the Dob with me.
So dark skies matter. Certainly for M33 and for many other DSOs as well. I'm a convert.
Charlie
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Charlie,
I'd have to agree about dark skies. I can see M1 from my garden and have managed M110 once. M33 I think I've seen, but it could be wishful thinking. However I have seen it in a pair of 8*40 binoc's whilst on holiday in Mid Wales.
Bierbelly - as Tina says, what mag were you using. Without goto, I've found it's best to start low (e.g. *40) and find the right place between the more southerly stars of the Lyre quadrilateral. It should show at that Mag as a grey spot. Then crank up the mag to show the ring. The ring can be seen nicely at *100 in my 4". More power shows a bit more detail.
Mind you, you'll either have to get up just before dwant or wait a few months at the moment.
Good luck - Marc
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I spent years looking for M33. Then I moved to the desert. "Oh, there it is" with my Ranger. Kind of annoying, really.
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LivingNDixie
Lord of Ferrets
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 15790
Loc: Hoover, AL
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Funny thing with me is, I have trouble finding M33 as well but my observing friends don't (as much). But I am like a magnet to M101, and yet they are stumped more by it.... Guess we all have those objects out there that challenge us...
LivingNDixie
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Preston
Celestron 11" Nexstar GPS XLT
Lunt LS60T/Ha 60mm f/8.33 (on order)
It’s not finishing something when your tank is empty that makes you a stronger person. It’s brushing yourself off and refacing the foe that defeated you with the same determination and willingness to fight that you had when you began your journey.
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Rhadamantys
sage
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 214
Loc: France
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Scope: 80mm f/6.5 achromatic refractor
Eyepiece: 30mm Clavé Plössl.
Conditions: M31 & M13 visible to the naked eye.
Location: Burgundy, France, September 24th 2003.
M33: Very easy. Slighly elliptical patch. Quite large. Very even surface brightness.
That's a bit dry, but this is what I noted when observing M33 with a light cup.
With a 10" f/6 Newtonian and a 30mm Clavé Plössl, I was able to detect the uneveness of surface brightness, but not to detect the spiral arms. But the site was not excellent as far as light pollution is concerned (Stellafane).
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Vincent
"The universe is a circle whose center is everywhere and the periphery nowhere." Pascal
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John M
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 571
Loc: Mesa/Tucson, AZ
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Well I have missed the last two deep sky parties and have not been able to try M33 again from a dark sky site. I have several weeks to try again. I am trying to set up a weekend at Chiricahua National Monument (Southeast Arizona) in the next month or so. It is supposed to be one of the darkest places in the states.
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John M
Mesa/Tucson, AZ
8" Sky View Pro Newt
90mm Meade 386D Refractor
60 mm Monlux Refractor
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Barry Fernelius
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/28/04
Posts: 629
Loc: Rancho Santa Margarita, Califo...
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Warpd nailed it.
No moon. No stinkin' light domes. Just DARK SKIES.
Under dark skies, this is an object that can be seen with good binoculars. (And with some aperture with high quality optics added to the dark skies, you can begin to see why it's called the Pinwheel.)
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The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes. -Proust
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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With dark skies, reasonable 8*40's show it (but just as a fuzzy glow :-) )
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bierbelly
Postmaster
Reged: 01/23/04
Posts: 5434
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
What magnification are you using? I can see M51 quite well from here in town.
Probably about 50x...I just can't seem to find it??? Hopefully my new goto mount will help out.
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12" DSH
8" f/4 Vega MakNewt
6" MN66
TV85
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Echo
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/29/03
Posts: 3320
Loc: So Cal
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Goto will either find it for you or confirm it can't be seen from your location. Good luck!
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Queen of GOTO
Life is short.... get a massage!
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bierbelly
Postmaster
Reged: 01/23/04
Posts: 5434
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Scope: 80mm f/6.5 achromatic refractor
Eyepiece: 30mm Clavé Plössl.
Conditions: M31 & M13 visible to the naked eye.
Location: Burgundy, France, September 24th 2003.
Burgundy, France? Are you certain that your viewing wasn't 'enhanced' by ethyl alcohol?
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12" DSH
8" f/4 Vega MakNewt
6" MN66
TV85
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Rhadamantys
sage
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 214
Loc: France
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Quote:
Quote:
Scope: 80mm f/6.5 achromatic refractor
Eyepiece: 30mm Clavé Plössl.
Conditions: M31 & M13 visible to the naked eye.
Location: Burgundy, France, September 24th 2003.
Burgundy, France? Are you certain that your viewing wasn't 'enhanced' by ethyl alcohol?
Getting "your vision enhanced" with a bottle of Vosne Romanée (for instance) is a good way to show your low breeding.    There is no curse strong enough for such a barbaric behaviour.
More seriously, if you have a good sky, M33 is a very easy object with a small apperture telescope. Where I observe in Burgundy, light pollution is a minor issue as the population is not so large to begin with and concentrated (the greatest danger for an astronomer in France is the wild boar also called "the Black Beast": better to have a tree with low branches around and to avoid the Neighborhood of corn fields.) With the same refractor, and also in Burgundy, I observed NGC 7000 (with a decent sky you don't need any imagination to understand why it's called North America), the Pelican, and countless nebulosities the swan.
France is (again) an oddity in Europe, since the population density is quite low (The poor guys in Belgium, Germany, UK and the Netherlands, know what light pollution is). We also have nice locations in the Southern Alps close to the Riviera, where M33 is a naked eye object (9000ft elevation + absence of light pollution).
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Vincent
"The universe is a circle whose center is everywhere and the periphery nowhere." Pascal
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bierbelly
Postmaster
Reged: 01/23/04
Posts: 5434
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Getting "your vision enhanced" with a bottle of Vosne Romanée (for instance) is a good way to show your low breeding. There is no curse strong enough for such a barbaric behaviour.
I guess one has to consider the source. Here in the US, such a viewing plan would be considered to have its merits...as compared to say, viewing during or after a bottle of Taylor Lake Country Pink, or Ripple. 
You're truly blessed to have dark skies. They are becoming increasingly difficult, if not impossible to find on the East Coast of the US. I fear I may never see the North American nebula. Unfortunately, if one is ever discovered that looks like France, I suppose we'll have to name it the 'Freedom' Nebula, unless GWB is defeated in the fall. 
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12" DSH
8" f/4 Vega MakNewt
6" MN66
TV85
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Rhadamantys
sage
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 214
Loc: France
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