TomN
sage
Reged: 01/14/09
Posts: 263
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I have been thinking about a new GoTo mount and I began to wonder what your thoughts are about GoTo vs. the old tried and true star-hopping method with a set of star charts. Do you guys use GoTo mounts (or push-to) or do you mostly use your charts? I would be interested to hear your thoughts.
Tom
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Amateur Astronomer since 1962.
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rocco13
Got Milk?
Reged: 07/29/06
Posts: 2643
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
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GoTo was what brought me back into the hobby after nearly 20 years away. With my old Coulter dob, I could never find many things, and after a while grew tired of the the frustration, and shelved the scope altogether. With my new GoTo scope, I saw more objects in the first week or two than I did in all my prior observing time combined.
But after getting used to the GoTo, I noticed I wasn't learning the sky at all. Within 6 months, I acquired a big dob that had no electronics. While my original thought was to add some DSC's, I realized that armed with a decent atlas (which I'd never had one before), I was not only finding things manually (and enjoying it), but learning the sky as well.
Now for some folks who live in light-polluted areas, it might be considered a necessity, since few stars are visible for starhopping.
Although there are those rare times when I wish I had some form of GoTo/push-to, but for the most part I do fine without it. Just my two cents.
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Rocco
Zhumell Z12
Super C8 (1984 vintage)
Celestron 102 f/5
and a cheap pair of binoculars
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Ken....
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/22/04
Posts: 1114
Loc: Nashua, NH, USA
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Since I do practically all my observing from Bortle 6 skies, a computer assisted scope is neccessary.
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Ken....
Discovery 12.5"
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3464
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Since I do practically all my observing from Bortle 6 skies, a computer assisted scope is neccessary.
I, on the other hand, do much of my observing from Bortle Class 8 skies, and find everything by star-hopping. Moral being that it takes all kinds to make a world.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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ursamajor
super member
Reged: 07/24/07
Posts: 145
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I learned to starhop before GoTo's were available. The hunt is a very enjoyable part of the hobby. That being said most of what I do is visual observing.
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Using a goto scope is like fishing with hand grenades...
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Steven Aggas
sage
Reged: 04/15/08
Posts: 463
Loc: Arizona
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I too learned star-hopping because there were no go-to options with my 8" back then, plus, the distance between the chart and eyepiece on my 8" was a mere 18 inches.
For the 20" that C-E distance greatly increased since the charts were no longer on a table mounted on the Dob mount. This still worked, however, until I built a platform and bought a ccd camera. Because I could no longer 'see' through the scope dsc's were purchased and it went to push-to.
Now, the 36" had dsc's installed and was push-to from the beginning for two reasons, 1: due to the C-E distance can now involve 12 feet of ladder, plus, walking distance to the paper charts. But, since the laptop is mounted on a truss pole at eye-level from the ground, and, the touch-screen 18" from the eyepiece, that C-E distance is minimal once again. So, digital charts are my 'norm', though I didn't always like them as I do now. 2: with such a long FL involving ladders my old typical paths of hopping, if I used them on the 36", would involve sooooo much more exercise going up and down the ladder than push-to. I'm progressing towards my Black Belt which helps scurrying up that ladder but I do still want a sizable list of observed targets each night (Push-to, observe, repeat until too tired). I'm considering full go-to now which would only save me limited energy since the scope does move fairly easily, but once again this upgrade is ccd related.
I thought at first star-hopping actually had more eye-in-the-eyepiece time than push-to. But I've found that having the charts, or in the case of the 36" the touch-screen, within 18" of the eyepiece I explore more in the vicinity of my original target, similar I'd say to the exploring surrounding each star hopped from towards a target, and the jump from push-to to go-to should not affect that. So for me I see the C-E distance as a parameter for ‘seeing more’, and, upgrading from hopping to something-go if you can’t ‘see’.
Sorry for rambling….
Steven
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Mr. Wizard
Walking on a Dob: http://darkskyobserving.com/MtGraham.html
Elements in Harmony I, an 8"f6 German Equatorial - Stellafane Winner,
II a 20"f4.2 Newt-Dob - Astrofest Winner,
III a 6"f3.5 Finder/Newt-Dob, and
IV a 36"f4.5 Newt-Dob - "If it's up there, it's in here."
Apache-Sitgreaves Center for Astrophysics
www.DarkSkyObserving.com
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1231
Loc: Estonia
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I star hop. Feels great to find something, like a personal conquest.
It's also pretty fun to just look at the sky naked eye and know where everything you've found is, exactly, in relation to everything else, as opposed to just knowing the general direction.
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JimPie
sage
Reged: 11/10/07
Posts: 229
Loc: S.E.Michigan
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I used to use DSC's. When I rebuilt my scope, I never got around to installing the encoders. I just started doing star hopping. It was very slow at first but For the last three years I have been able to find most every thing (that can be seen under heavy light pollution) in a short order.At a dark site it seems I can find things quicker (usually) than when I ussed DSC
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Jim
12.5",f=4.8 truss dob
EQ platform,24mm pan,14mm radian, vixen LVs
Edited by JimPie (05/11/09 01:39 PM)
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skyward_eyes
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/12/06
Posts: 2101
Loc: Arizona
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I have owned GoTo scopes and they are nice but like Rocco said you dont learn anything. My 10" has the Orion Intellascope computer but I cant tell you the last time I used it.
Now that I have my 16" and a 24" on the design board I am all star hopping. I can find things much faster then the GoTo can usually. Also most GoTos dont even have the objects I look at listed. Barnard's Dark Nebula and Quasars.
I would just get a good map like a Star Atlas 2000.
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www.skywardeyes.webs.com
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Jeff Young
Post Laureate
Reged: 08/04/05
Posts: 4115
Loc: Ireland
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I use GoTo if it's there; I star-hop if it's not.
(Most of my star-hopping is therefore done with binoculars. It's possible I wouldn't be as happy with it with a much smaller field....)
-- Jeff.
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Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8275
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
I have owned GoTo scopes and they are nice but like Rocco said you dont learn anything. My 10" has the Orion Intellascope computer but I cant tell you the last time I used it.
Now that I have my 16" and a 24" on the design board I am all star hopping. I can find things much faster then the GoTo can usually. Also most GoTos dont even have the objects I look at listed. Barnard's Dark Nebula and Quasars.
I would just get a good map like a Star Atlas 2000.
You *can* learn something by not star-hopping (you just have to want to go to the trouble to do it). Some people find that they actually do learn the sky somewhat by seeing where the scope is going to, so the statement that you can't learn anything is not always accurate. Again, Go-to is just another tool, one which, after over 40 years of "manual" observing (i.e. star hopping), I have chosen to use (although I can still star-hop with the best of them). As for Go-To systems not having some objects, most (if not all) Go-to telescopes have the ability to input and use coordinates for any object above the horizon, so a limited database is not necessarily a limitation. Indeed, for many objects, rather than connecting my scope to my laptop, I just input the coordinates manually into the hand controller (read off of the laptop or even out of a book) and away we go. This summer at the Nebraska Star Party, I will be on Dob-row manhandling some of the big Dobs to point at distant and obscure objects using my charts and maps, but I am still quite happy to get back to my Go-to instrument, as it can often make me a more efficient observer. Clear skies to you.
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David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3464
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
You *can* learn something by not star-hopping (you just have to want to go to the trouble to do it).
Agreed. In fact, I know one person who started out as a stargazer by using a Go To telescope, and made a point of always finding out where it was pointing and looking it up on a chart. He found it to be a very efficient way to learn the constellations. Makes sense to me.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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ColoHank
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/07/07
Posts: 513
Loc: western Colorado
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Consider a mount that's equipped with manual setting circles. It's a tried-and-true technology which offers the following advantages: easy alignment, no circuit boards to burn out, no twisted wires, no connections to get loose, accuracy and reliability at any temperature, no noisy slewing, freedom from the big battery packs needed to feed a power-hungry computer chip, and you still get the thrill of the chase and sense of accomplishment that comes with being a part of the navigation process. My scope doesn't leave home without them.
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Questar 3.5 standard - pyrex and BB coatings
Powerguide II
8mm, 12mm, 16mm, 24mm and 32mm Brandons
modified Bogen 3030 w/ homebuilt wedge
Homebuilt Galileo scope and very large and ugly homemade tripod
other odds and ends, including iPod Touch with StarMap Pro (what a marvelous combo)...
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"Nothing exists but atoms and empty space. Everything else is opinion."
Titus Lucretius Carus 99-55 B.C.
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Dain
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/24/05
Posts: 1596
Loc: N.Y. Adirondack Mnts. NGC 4565...
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I've been a starhopper since the beginning. Finding objects with my own go-to ( my brain ) gives me a rewarding feeling and a great sense of accomplishment. The best feeling is pushing my gear to its limits unexpectingly to find something I never thought I would of been able to see. Even though this is a hobby and only that, it gives me another sense of achievement in one of the many obsticles of life.
Clear Skies to All.
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Best,
Dain
Adirondack Mountains (my true dark sky site)
@ Cedar River Flow
Local Site
Clear Skies?
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Jim Curry
sage
Reged: 10/29/07
Posts: 431
Loc: Maine
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98% of my sky time is star hopping. Exceptions: 1. when viewing near the zenith and I'm tired and the ground is wet or frozen; 2. when I have visitors over. To me the journey is most of the fun of the hobby.
Jim
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Vixen 140 refractor
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 5662
Loc: Inner Solar System
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I do both. Sometimes what I want to see isn't in the telescope database. So I'll go-to the nearest included item (i.e. bright star), then star hop using the telescope motors and either the finder, or estimated hop distances on the map.
I don't see it as an either-or thing. Both are good. Life is good.
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
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skyward_eyes
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/12/06
Posts: 2101
Loc: Arizona
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Maybe I should of refraised what I said. GOTo does help and you do learn stuff but I believe star hopping is more rewarding after you find your object.
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www.skywardeyes.webs.com
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MessierScott
sage
Reged: 06/18/07
Posts: 294
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For my personal observing, I use only star hopping. But then I observe from mag 6.5 skies usually and I'm in no hurry. I find the journey half the fun.
For public star parties, I use the GO-TO because people are lined up 10 deep waiting to look through the eyepiece or I'm in the middle of the city with only a dozen stars in the sky visible.
ALSO, PLEASE NOTE: If you are locating objects and recording them to fulfill the requirements of an Astronomical League observing certificate, check that GO-TO is acceptable. For instance, I know for a fact that the Messier Observing Program allows only star hopping (see my signature line).
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Scott Kranz
20-inch f/4.3 Starmaster w/Zambuto mirror
7-inch Starmaster
H-alpha Coronado PST
Denkmeier II binoviewers w/24mm Panoptics
16x80 binos
Astronomical Society of Kansas City
Powell Observatory with 30-inch f/4.9 EQ newtonian
Astronomical League Messier, Meteor, Sunspotter, & Asteroid Observing Programs Coordinator
ASKC Dark Sky Site
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3464
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Consider a mount that's equipped with manual setting circle ... My scope doesn't leave home without them.
If your scope is a standard Questar, then leaving home without them isn't an option!
But I must admit that as far as I'm concerned, Go To has very nearly rendered traditional setting circles obsolete. Low-quality setting circles are worse than useless, and scopes with high-quality EQ mounts and setting circles cost more than scopes with high-quality Go To.
It's true that when using setting circles you participate in the process, but only in a mechanical way. You're performing actions that humans are bad at and computers are good at, like looking up coordinates.
I will grant you, though, that most Go To scopes draw vastly more electricity than an old-fashioned EQ mount with clock drive. Of all the advantages you cite, that's the only one that I find persuasive.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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galaxyman
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/04/05
Posts: 1471
Loc: Limerick, Pa
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Quote:
I have been thinking about a new GoTo mount and I began to wonder what your thoughts are about GoTo vs. the old tried and true star-hopping method with a set of star charts. Do you guys use GoTo mounts (or push-to) or do you mostly use your charts? I would be interested to hear your thoughts.
Tom
Hey Tom
In the post "Clash of the Titans parts 1 & 2, I have both my premium scopes together at one site. One has GoTo (8" refractor), while the other (22" dob) doesn't.
I certainly do like the idea of GoTo, and relish having it on both my 6" and 8" refractors, but at the same time there is a certain type of pleasure using good star charts and finding the object(s). Almost like a treasure hunt.
For me after 41 years at the eyepiece I do like the simple pleasure of hit the button and off we go, but there is still lots of fire in me to do it the old fashion way.
Maybe we can look at it in another way, time can be an issue. So if you get out less frequently than you wish, then GoTo is a huge plus.
Karl
E.O.H.
Chesmont Astronomical Society
Telekit (Swayze optics) 22" F/4.5 Dob
Homemade (Parks Optics) 12.5" F/4.8 Dob
TMB 8" F/9 Refractor”The Beast”. One great achro
Astrozap 6" f/8 Refractor. Another fine achro
Orion 4" f/6 Refractor. Also not bad for an achro
Celestron 10x60mm Binos
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So many galaxies, so little time!
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