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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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Astrojensen
sage


Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Ultra low-power observing
      #3256038 - 08/05/09 04:23 PM

I recently cobbled a pair of extremely interesting binoculars together from various parts I had lying about in my boxes of various ATM parts. A pair of optically poor 8x21 pocket binoculars were cannibalized and their eyepieces and prism clusters removed. Then I attached a pair of 28mm eyepieces from an old 7x50 binocular that I had also cannibalized some years ago. I had to use a couple of old film canisters, lots of black tape, a bit of cardboard and some creativity to make it work, but now I have a 3x21 binocular with inverted views!

The inverted view takes a little getting used to, but the views are quite stunning! The contrast is extremely good and the true field superwide, over 14 degrees, even though the eyepieces only have a roughly 40 degree field. I have only tested them under pretty mediocre conditions (some twilight visible, but the milky way still visible), but lots of large and dim objects are jumping out! The sharpness could be better, so I may have to find better eyepieces or otherwise fiddle with them. The back focus is far enough from the rear end of the housing that I can actually make some 1.25" adapters and use 1.25" eyepieces, with all the options that gives me, including the use of filters.
The original focus mechanism is still working, since it focuses by moving the objectives!

I aimed it at Lyra and the whole constellation fit in with lots of room to spare. Seemingly thousands of stars barely stood out from the background, presumably because the binos lack a bit in sharpness. If the view had been a little sharper, showing the stars better, the view would have been jaw-dropping, fantastic as it already was. Turning to Cygnus, the Veil was not visible (but this was with twilight visible to the north) but the North America Nebula was very easy. Lots of structure was visible in the milky way and several prominent starclouds were spotted in Aquila, some of which I've never noticed before, likely because they're too faint for the naked eye and too large for normal binoculars. NGC 6940, the large cluster in Cygnus stood out very obviously and I wondered why I normally never paid much attention to it.

Turning to M31 and M33 I honestly didn't expect much, but I was very, very wrong! I did expect them to show up, of course, but M31 only as a small elliptical glow and M33 only very dimly visible.

But not so! M31 was extremely easy, with a tiny nonstellar bulge sitting inside an elongated glowing disk. The view reminded me of views of Messier galaxies in much larger scopes. It was amazing. I didn't spot the companions, but I wouldn't rule spotting M32 out under better conditions.
M33 was the big shock of the evening. As stated, I only expected a faint glow, but the galaxy almost jumped out at me as a very obvious glow in a rich field. Stunning!

I am now very excited about how much these little superbinos will show me under very dark skies as they seem to offer a whole new experience of the night sky, offering clearly enhanced views over the naked eye, yet retaining much of the fascination of naked-eye stargazing. And how will they perform on aurorae and nocticulent clouds? Or meteors? They do perform absolutely wonderful on daytime clouds.

And now for the million-dollar question: Why are such binoculars (with correction prisms) not offered by any major maker of astro binoculars???? Surely, even more impressive versions than my humble ATM sample could be made for a reasonable cost.


Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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Dave Mitsky
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Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10511
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Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #3256053 - 08/05/09 04:31 PM

I've used a pair of 2x opera glasses and a Sard 6x42 binocular to do some observing. The Sard had a very large TFOV and produced some memorable views.

http://fantao.home.att.net/mark43.htm

Dave Mitsky

--------------------
Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.


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Astrojensen
sage


Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #3256135 - 08/05/09 05:18 PM

The Sards do look very interesting! Are they coated? How do the eyepieces perform near the edge?

I just fiddled a little with the 3x21 and I think they are a little sharper now. I found that my eyes need to be very accurately centered over the exit pupil for good performance. Also, the right unit has a very bad objective. The left one is much better, even at 3x!

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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peter k
super member


Reged: 02/03/07
Posts: 172
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #3256397 - 08/05/09 07:34 PM

Sounds fun. Does anyone know if and where the 2.3x40 binos can be purchased? Blue Planet Optics used to carry them, but they appear to be out of business. Kunming United Optics still shows them on their wholesale-oriented web site, but Googling for retail dealers returned no hits.

Thanks.


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astrokido
space wanderer


Reged: 06/09/08
Posts: 666
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: peter k]
      #3256526 - 08/05/09 08:38 PM

Closest I know of you can buy today are the Bushnell 4x30 PowerView binos. See google.

--------------------
- Gill C. - Celestron Cometron CO-100, 10x25, 20x80, Binochair, Nikon D40

The Night Sky Atlas: www.nightskyatlas.com


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PeterSurma
super member


Reged: 08/24/06
Posts: 122
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: astrokido]
      #3257436 - 08/06/09 10:57 AM

Yes I had a look at the Bushnell 4x30 - looks reasonable with roughly 17° field. AP is 7.5mm which is a bit big, but well, this means at least you can use it favourable under really dark skies (that's what you want, finally) !

I really can imagine it's pretty nice to have those large overviews. The 4x30 will contain more than the constellation of Cas e.g. So hopping across the MW might be really fascinating with roughly 3.5mag deeper limiting magnitude ...

Actually Thomas, I appreciate you made this post initially. Good idea + good proposal. I guess I gonna get such a bino :-)


--------------------
Peter

Web: http://www.eyes4skies.de/home_EnglishVersion.htm
Scopes: From 3inch photographic APO to 20inch f/4 Dob


Edited by PeterSurma (08/06/09 10:59 AM)


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PeterSurma
super member


Reged: 08/24/06
Posts: 122
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: PeterSurma]
      #3257527 - 08/06/09 11:47 AM

Actually I now foudn someone in a forum state that the Bushnell 4x30 cannot be focused well for stars (inifinity). Bad luck ...

Edited by PeterSurma (08/06/09 11:48 AM)


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astrokido
space wanderer


Reged: 06/09/08
Posts: 666
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: PeterSurma]
      #3257676 - 08/06/09 01:42 PM

The 17° FOV is more like a NRFOV (Not-Really FOV). The TFOV is actually about 6°, with a small 25° AFOV, not the 17° which is only viewable by looking from off-center.

There's no diopter adjustment, so they only really work for folks with matched eyeballs. Mine aren't so well matched and on side is always OOF unless I apply some pressure to one side. Kind of lame, but you do get somewhat brighter views than with your eyes. I've been able to see several Messier OC's with them. The nicest thing is that the 4X power almost eliminates shake.

--------------------
- Gill C. - Celestron Cometron CO-100, 10x25, 20x80, Binochair, Nikon D40

The Night Sky Atlas: www.nightskyatlas.com


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wfj
sage
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Reged: 01/10/08
Posts: 259
Loc: California, Santa Cruz County
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: astrokido]
      #3258205 - 08/06/09 07:26 PM

Mini Review of Bushnell 4x30 Powerview
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2783624&page=5&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=all&vc=1


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Dave Mitsky
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Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10511
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #3261732 - 08/08/09 05:33 PM

Quote:

The Sards do look very interesting! Are they coated? How do the eyepieces perform near the edge?





The Sard binocular belonged to a friend. It was quite a few years ago and I really don't remember how good the edge of the field was.

Dave Mitsky

--------------------
Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.


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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #3261817 - 08/08/09 06:38 PM

Thomas,
Glad to see that you're still playing around with the 'tiny bino' concept! The main problem with mating your 7x50 eyepieces to the small objectives is the inability to accommodate for the now-larger degree of field curvature. Recall that for 'simple' lenses (such as achromatic objectives), the radius of the curved field is generally some relatively fixed fraction of the focal length. So the longer focal length of the 50mm objective will result in a less curved field than that of the 21mm lenses. That's most likely why the outer field of your 3x21 is so unsharp.

You can slightly compensate for this by doing the following: Make a baffle whose clear aperture is perhaps 2/3 the diameter of the objective, and place it about halfway between the objective and bino eyepiece's field stop (i.e., focal surface).

What this does is partially block marginal rays from the objective which form images in the outer field. The result will be a bit of a reduction in the blur circle because the effective aperture of the objective is now reduced. Yes, there will be some loss of brightness (vignetting) in the outer parts of the field, but it will be rather gradual and in all likelihood imperceptible.

If you want maximum sharpening of off-axis imagery, you can get more aggressive with the baffling. A half-aperture baffle placed exactly midway between objective and focal surface will yield best results while just barely allowing full on-axis illumination.

I'm currently near the end of my current project; a right angle 'dual' bino using 13mm Ethos eyepieces (100 deg. AFoV) and interchangeable aspheric 50mm f/3.3 and spherical 60mm f/4.5 objectives.

Once that's out of the way, I strongly suspect my next project will be a 'mini' right angle 4x21, the lenses of which came from a Bushnell Xtra-Wide of the same specs.

--------------------
Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces

My Gallery

Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.


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Astrojensen
sage


Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #3262503 - 08/09/09 05:22 AM

Hi Glenn

I am a kid at heart, so I never stopped playing.

The field curvature, of course!
Had forgot about that. The curvature is approximately a sphere with a radius around 40% of the focal length, from what I remember. Could be wrong, though.

I have been thinking of perhaps making a right-angle version from commercially available amici prisms and a Borg 1.25" helical focuser. It could use high-end 1.25" eyepieces, which would be nice.

For the current version, I also have a couple of 28mm orthoscopics, which might do better than the achromatic ramsdens currently in use.

I am looking forward to see the result of your own latest project. A 20x60 with 5 degrees true field sound pretty awesome!


Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #3274887 - 08/15/09 08:54 PM

Thomas,
Indeed, the radius of the curved field is less than half the focal length. Have you tried making baffles along the lines of my suggestions? Or do you think the de-focus is simply too great to bother with?

I've just completed my Mark II right angle bino, and am most pleased. I have yet to take some photos, but I've started a thread in the bino forum....

--------------------
Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces

My Gallery

Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.


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azure1961p
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #3275826 - 08/16/09 01:39 PM



Even a 2x gain in magnification can be a boon to some people whose eyes naturally soften the focus of stars in dim to dark night skies. The easy correcting of manual focus bypass this eye-phenomenon.

Pete

--------------------


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Astrojensen
sage


Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #3275958 - 08/16/09 03:05 PM

Quote:

Have you tried making baffles along the lines of my suggestions? Or do you think the de-focus is simply too great to bother with?




Hi Glenn

I had the 3x21's out last night for almost an hour or so, and managed to get the focus tweaked just right and the image was sharp and pleasing - in the center! The defocus near the edge was quite bad, but as long as I just looked near the center and moved the binos to whatever object I wanted to see in the field, instead of moving my eyes in the field, I found the images quite acceptable. I was much more bothered by the narrow 40-degree apparent field offered by the simple eyepieces.

The inverted view is not so bad, once you get used to it, but it can make finding objects a bit challenging, at first.

But the views of some objects are totally worth it! The milky way appears truly like billowing clouds, strewn with innumerable glistening points and laced with dark bands of dust. Fantastic! The part from Altair and down is superb, but the whole milky way is filled with breathtaking sights.
Amazingly, I detected M82 with it, as an extremely faint streak, while M81 was a pale glow, slightly elliptical. I tried to spot M32 and M110, but they remained invisible. M31 and M33 were surprisingly dim tonight, but I suspected some haze in that direction, since I saw them much better the first night I used the 3x21, and that was in twilight.

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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nytecam
Postmaster


Reged: 08/20/05
Posts: 5756
Loc: London UK
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: astrokido]
      #3283298 - 08/20/09 04:21 AM Attachment (7 downloads)

Quote:

Closest I know of you can buy today are the Bushnell 4x30 PowerView binos. See google.


Interesting but are all these binos 'pushing' the pupil's best full aperture [7mm] somewhat and what about a hint of ambient light nearby to stop the pupil down Due to severe light pollution my alternative approach via sub 3mm aperture 'monocular' covering 1000sq degs of Aquila below

--------------------
Nytecam 51N 0.1W
Meade 30cm LX200+ETX-70+e-finder+C8+Ha+CaK PSTs SBIG SGS+homebuilt spectrographs
Starlight SXVF_M9+Lodestar CCDs/Canon 300D DSLR/Fuji E550
My observatory build-ETX-70 imaging-my videos




Edited by nytecam (08/20/09 05:28 AM)


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Astrojensen
sage


Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: PeterSurma]
      #3284156 - 08/20/09 03:04 PM

Hi Peter et al

Thanks to a thread over in the refractors forum, I found a link to something useful: Kasai Trading in Japan. They have some very interesting binoculars:

http://www.kasai-trading.jp/binoculars.htm

Note in particular, that they have the very special 2.3x40 with 28 degree field that is not available anywhere else anymore. Also, they have a VERY interesting 4x22 with 17 degree field and a 6x30 with 11 degree field. Both have individual focus and Bak4 prisms.

This could be *just* what we're looking for.


Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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wfj
sage
*****

Reged: 01/10/08
Posts: 259
Loc: California, Santa Cruz County
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #3285048 - 08/20/09 11:08 PM

For those lacking Japanese skills (it translates fairly well:
Link


Link shortened by Square_peg.

Edited by square_peg (08/21/09 04:23 PM)


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PeterSurma
super member


Reged: 08/24/06
Posts: 122
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #3285658 - 08/21/09 10:17 AM

Hi Thomas,

your link to the japanese bino looks good. Well, 2.3 x 40mm looks like a waste of aperture (only max 16mm aperture could be used with 7 pupil size of the human eye). But ok, still 16mm is much more than 7mm. Looks also like this bino was thought to be used for astronomy, they are even talking about using it with UHC filters to see emission nebulae (whhich I think will not give you that much, but anyway). The 4x22 looks good (even better suited for astronomy), too in principle...

It all depends on the optical quality of these binos, and if they can be focused well (I could not really find out if the eyepieces can be focused (independently), 'IF' means what exactly ?). 14000 Yen are roughly 100 Euro, which seems very ok, if the optics were acceptable.

Anybody here with contacts to japanese astro amateurs + ask them what experience they might have ? :-)

--------------------
Peter

Web: http://www.eyes4skies.de/home_EnglishVersion.htm
Scopes: From 3inch photographic APO to 20inch f/4 Dob


Edited by PeterSurma (08/21/09 10:26 AM)


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Astrojensen
sage


Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: PeterSurma]
      #3286099 - 08/21/09 03:01 PM

Hi Peter

The 2.3x40 is a galilean binocular, like an operaglass, they need to have much larger apertures than what is effectively used, since the visual apparent field is defined by the objective, as well as the observers exit pupil. Here's a review:

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1806

The 4x22 and 6x30 both have individual focus "IF" on each eyepiece. In my opinion, given the info stated, the 4x22 sounds most interesting of them all.


Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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ph2
super member


Reged: 11/28/05
Posts: 120
Loc: Aalborg, Denmark
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #3286221 - 08/21/09 04:24 PM

Here is a picture of some of my low-power and wide-field optics :



  • 2x monocular made from a 50mm Camera lens.
  • Bushnell Xtra-Wide 4x21 Binocular.
  • 2.3x40 Binocular.


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Astrojensen
sage


Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: ph2]
      #3286448 - 08/21/09 07:04 PM

Ah, I've also experimented making low-power scopes from camera lenses of various focal lengths. Worked pretty well, but I really missed the stereo view offered by binoculars. The stars were far, far sharper in the camera lens scopes than in my current 3x21, though. I did consider making a binocular from two camera lenses, though, but never got around to do it.

I am very interested in your opinion on the 2.3x40's, please tell us how they perform.


Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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ph2
super member


Reged: 11/28/05
Posts: 120
Loc: Aalborg, Denmark
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #3287700 - 08/22/09 02:03 PM

Quote:

I am very interested in your opinion on the 2.3x40's, please tell us how they perform.




That's a longer story



In 2006, I visited Yellowstone National Park in the USA. The Milky Way in dark skies at 7700 feet altitude is breathtaking beautiful with numerous star-clouds, dark rifts and knots visible to the naked eye. In a 10x50 binocular a lot of new details could be seen with dark lanes cutting through a luminous background in Ophiuchus and Sagittarius.

But I did have a (small) problem. The naked eye view and the view through 10x50 binocular were like looking at two different skies. Some large objects visible naked eye was not visible or (more correctly) recognizable as such in the binoculars. The 10x50 did not enhance them.

The gain in limiting magnitude from using the naked eyes (a 1x7 binocular!) to a 7x50 or 10x50 binocular is 4.2-4.6 magnitudes. What I needed was something that could bridge the gap. A hypothetical binocular with a gain of 2.1 to 2.3 magnitudes and an exit pupil of 5-7mm should be capable to do just that.

Binoculars with those specifications are rare, but I have managed to obtain two.


Bushnell Xtra-Wide 4x21 Binocular.

This is fixed-focus binocular with a very wide field for watching sport events. It uses (so I’m told) internal mirrors or a combination of mirrors and prisms for erect-image views. I have measured the magnification as 3.5x (6mm exit pupil) and the true field of view as 18 degrees. It should (in theory) give a 2.6 magnitude gain in limiting magnitude.

In daylight, it is actually a quite nice binocular. I like it. The entire surrounding context is there and the connection to the naked eye view is not broken like in a 10x50 binocular.

At night, though, several problems begin to emerge. The fix-focus makes it impossible to make adjustments. Faint star in the binocular do (with my eyes) need something akin to a slight twist on a focuser to make then pinpoint. But that can’t be done resulting in a loss in limiting magnitude.

Furthermore Milky Way star clouds do not get much easier to observe compared to the naked eye. They are bigger but surprisingly dull or dark. The light-transmission through the mirror system does not appear to be very high.

Despite the problems, I am using this binocular as a ‘pre’-finder making good use of the 18 degree wide field. It is a good match to the Pocket Sky Atlas.


2.3x40 Binocular.

The optics is of this binocular is of the Galilean type. It doesn’t need any prisms or mirrors for getting an erect image. Each barrel has only 4 multicoated lenses, resulting in maximum light transmission. The two eyepieces can be focused individually. The magnification is 2.3x (8mm exit-like-pupil). I get up to a 24 degree true field, if I press the eye close enough to the eyepiece. The gain in limiting magnitude, compared to the naked eye, is in theory 1.8 magnitudes.

On paper this binocular would be ideal to bridge to gap between the naked eye and the binocular view, despite the slightly lower gain than my requirement of 2.1 to 2.3 magnitudes.

I tried to get one in Russia, but was told that it no longer was in production. Later I got a Chinese version (clone?) from a dealer in Japan.

I must say, it has not disappointed me. The stars are sharp and Milky Way star clouds (or ordinary clouds lit by the city lights) are not only larger but conspicuously brighter than the naked eye. I know it is impossible for the surface brightness to increase, but subjectively it appears to do so.

Looking through the binocular is in essence like a slightly larger and boosted naked eye view with a 2 magnitude increase in star brightness. If only I had this binocular at Yellowstone ...


Camera lenses.

I have also experimented with using Camera lenses as mini-telescopes. But they are not really the solution to this particular problem. You lose the context in the sky because the image is upside-down - and looking with one eye only does the opposite than enhancing the view.

.


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Astrojensen
sage


Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: ph2]
      #3287773 - 08/22/09 02:51 PM

Hi again

Thanks for your mini-review of the 2.3x40. They sound like something I've been looking for. I think I must save up and get a pair.

Like you, I have found the same thing about camera lenses as mini-telescopes. Still, they offer the potential to make a very unique little binocular, if you are willing to accept the inverted view. I find it not too bothersome or confusing, if the field is large enough.

I have just played with one such lens again, an old 50mm f/1.7, this time coupled to a 17mm plössl. The daytime performance looks good, but it is a bit mushy off-axis, due to the astigmatism in the eyepiece, as f/1.7 is merciless. I wonder how it could perform with a Nagler?


Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark

PS. Ser lige, at du er fra Ålborg! Der er ikke så mange danskere her på deep-sky foraet.


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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Ultra low-power observing new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #3288049 - 08/22/09 06:03 PM

Thomas,
I have a pair of the 2.3x40 'Owl Eyes', purchased back in the early- to mid-nineties. They were made in Russia, and perform well. But I had to remove the rear 'rings' at the eye end which hold the focusing rings in place. As you know, in order to maximize the FOV of a Galilean optic, the eye must be placed as close as possible to the eye lens. Before removal, the maximum FOV I could obtain was 18-20 degrees. After removal, I can now get the stated 28 degrees. As the math suggests, the apparent FOV is near to 65 degrees--nice!

My next project will probably be a right-angle 4x21 having 17 deg. FOV, using the objectives and eyepieces taken from a Bushnell Xtra-Wide. The 21mm clear aperture Amici prisms will have to have baffles installed near their rear apertures in order to clean up off-axis imagery (some light loss is not objectionable to me).

By the way, I've posted photos of my just-completed Mk II RA bino in my Gallery. For some details, visit the Binocular forum to view the thread I've got going...

Keep experimenting!

Glenn

--------------------
Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces

My Gallery

Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.


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