Bill Barlow
sage
Reged: 12/03/07
Posts: 336
Loc: Overland Park KS
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I was trying to star hop to the cats eye nebula last night when the moon was about 85% full. I couldn't find it with my SV 102ED refractor. Is this object too small/faint to see with this type of scope when the moon is this full? I observe at a slightly/somewhat light polluted suburb of KC.
Any help/advice apprecaited. Clear skies.
Bill
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Meade 10" SCT ACF OTA on a UA UniStar Deluxe Super 8 altaz mount on a UA heavy duty surveyor tripod and a Manny Miles eyepiece tray.
SV 102ED doublet refractor on a UA UniStar Light mount on a UA light surveyor tripod with a Manny Miles eyepiece tray.
Garrett Optical 10x50 and 12x60 binoculars. Also Garrett Optical 30x100 binoculars mounted on a SLIK Pro 700DX AMT tripod.
Several TV Plossls and Naglers, plus a few very good Celestron Ultima wide TFOV eyepieces.
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Achernar
Postmaster
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 5024
Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
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It's bright enough to see from my city in spite of a full moon, therefore it sounds like you were looking for it in the wrong place. The Cat's Eye is easy to spot even at low power due to the strong color and it's pretty large apparent size even in small telescopes.
Taras
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15-inch F/4.5 Dob under construction
10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
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A whole bunch of eyepieces, filters and other accessories....
Two curious cats
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1230
Loc: Estonia
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The color is a very personal thing. I don't see a lot of color at all in the the Cat's Eye. It's mostly grey even on good nights.
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lightfever
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/27/04
Posts: 1272
Loc: Macomb Michigan
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Was just looking at the Cats eye last night with my 8" and 12.5" scopes, it's one of my favorites and I see a lot of color.
I also live in a light polluted area but never tried to observe it with my 111. I'll check it out tonight.
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Mark
Tasco 15-TE 76mm
Sky Watcher 80mm ED
AT-111 Triplet
XT8i (with Woden re-figured mirror)
Discovery 12.5" f/5 Premium DHQ (PDHQ Split-tube Dobsonian)
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"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to dance in the rain" unknown
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8275
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
The color is a very personal thing. I don't see a lot of color at all in the the Cat's Eye. It's mostly grey even on good nights.
Some people just don't have the color sensitivity to see the rather striking bluish-green coloration in some of the brighter planetaries. I find the color in NGC 6543 tends to fade somewhat at powers over 150xin my 9.25 inch SCT, although the object still shows interesting detail. Here is a sketch of it I did a number of years ago:
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David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8275
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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I like to form a narrow "X" to find it using the stars I have circled below in red. They are around 5th magnitude, so you will have to be able to see that faint, but if I put the scope right in the middle of that "X", I am usually on the target. Another possibility is going just under halfway from Zeta Dra to Delta Dra. The Cat's Eye is about 8th magnitude, so it should be visible in a good pair of 10x50 binoculars. Here is the Megastar chart with the X stars circled:
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David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1230
Loc: Estonia
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Quote:
Quote:
The color is a very personal thing. I don't see a lot of color at all in the the Cat's Eye. It's mostly grey even on good nights.
Some people just don't have the color sensitivity to see the rather striking bluish-green coloration in some of the brighter planetaries. I find the color in NGC 6543 tends to fade somewhat at powers over 150xin my 9.25 inch SCT, although the object still shows interesting detail. Here is a sketch of it I did a number of years ago:
I wish I'd see anything like that, but I've long suspected my blue sensitivity is rather awful. My eyes also have trouble focusing on very blue lights and signs, so maybe it's a sign that I should stick with the red stars.
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ursamajor
super member
Reged: 07/24/07
Posts: 145
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Quote:
I like to form a narrow "X" to find it using the stars I have circled below in red.
Funny. That's exactly what I do too.
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Using a goto scope is like fishing with hand grenades...
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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So i assume this is a easy to find nebula ? Or see ? Would i be able to see it with my 10" Im on a nebula Hunt as you can see from my thread
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8275
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
So i assume this is a easy to find nebula ? Or see ? Would i be able to see it with my 10" Im on a nebula Hunt as you can see from my thread
It should be as long as you aren't trying to find it from a well-lit location. I have seen it in my 9x50 finderscope, so it isn't exactly difficult, although to see much detail (other than its overall shape and color) requires something a bit larger than six inches of aperture and a lot of power. It isn't exactly huge, so look at each of the stars carefully as you do your search at low power. Look for one which is a little bluish and fuzzy, then when you have it centered, kick up the power and observe it carefully, as the interior detail is very subtle. Good luck and clear skies to you.
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David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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scopethis
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/30/08
Posts: 629
Loc: Kingman, Ks
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Per my notes (dark site location) NGC 6543 in Draco is easily seen w/10" SCT. At 62x it is a pretty bright fuzzy star. Higher power reveals a bluish oblong disk. It is also visible in 80mm finder, being that one oddball in FOV that just won't focus.
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lightfever
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/27/04
Posts: 1272
Loc: Macomb Michigan
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In my 8" it appears pretty much like David's drawing both in color and detail.
The 12.5" reveals more detail. I notice a more pronounced border with some striations that fade away toward the center.
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Mark
Tasco 15-TE 76mm
Sky Watcher 80mm ED
AT-111 Triplet
XT8i (with Woden re-figured mirror)
Discovery 12.5" f/5 Premium DHQ (PDHQ Split-tube Dobsonian)
12.5" f/6.3 Dob (Underconstruction)
Celestron CG-5GT EQ Mount
Celestron C4 EQ Mount
"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to dance in the rain" unknown
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Bill Barlow
sage
Reged: 12/03/07
Posts: 336
Loc: Overland Park KS
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David...
Thanks for the helpful information regarding the cat's eye nebula. When I tried to find it a few nights ago, I located the polygon shape of four stars that make up the head of Draco..then I panned northward about 10 degrees along a line parrell to the imaginary line that the stars Eltanin and Grumium make. I then tried to located the four stars you mentioned to make an "X", but must have been off a bit. I now have a very good idea on where it is and should be able to find it next time. Thanks again and clear skies.
Bill
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Meade 10" SCT ACF OTA on a UA UniStar Deluxe Super 8 altaz mount on a UA heavy duty surveyor tripod and a Manny Miles eyepiece tray.
SV 102ED doublet refractor on a UA UniStar Light mount on a UA light surveyor tripod with a Manny Miles eyepiece tray.
Garrett Optical 10x50 and 12x60 binoculars. Also Garrett Optical 30x100 binoculars mounted on a SLIK Pro 700DX AMT tripod.
Several TV Plossls and Naglers, plus a few very good Celestron Ultima wide TFOV eyepieces.
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Achernar
Postmaster
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 5024
Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
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The ability to see colors in deep sky objects is highly variable from person to person. It also has to do with your health and how much yellowing there is in the lenses in the eyes too. That is why one person can see a greenish color in a planetary nebula, while another sees it as a blue object. The Cat's Eye has always shown a bluish or blue-green color to me, especially at lower magnifications.
Taras
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15-inch F/4.5 Dob under construction
10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
4 1/4-inch F/4 Homebuilt reflector
A whole bunch of eyepieces, filters and other accessories....
Two curious cats
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dpwoos
sage
Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 213
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I use an averted vision scan to help me locate it. Even at low power, when I look directly at it the central star pops out very strongly, but when I look away the nebulosity dominates. So when I scan around in the field using averted vision I notice it as a fuzzy patch, and when I look directly at it the star pops out. Then I know, and can up the magnification.
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lymorkiew45
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/30/07
Posts: 735
Loc: In the dark, and way out there...
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What aperture are you using for these observations?...clear skies... 
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Jorgen
Starfinder 16 dob: Zambuto Optics! 
DS-10
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dpwoos
sage
Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 213
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10" f/6 dob. In our 6" f/8 dob I have found that looking directly at the central star nearly kills the nebulosity, like the Blinking Planetary. However, in the 10" the nebulosity doesn't diminish as much as in the 6", but is still very significantly fainter than with even slightly averted vision. It is interesting that not everybody immediately notices that they can kill the nebulosity by concentrating on the central star, but when I prompt them to really stare at it they usually report that they do see the effect.
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dpwoos
sage
Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 213
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That is a great sketch (as are your others) - it looks exactly like what I see through the eyepiece of my 10" f/6. Maybe the central star could be a bit brighter, but it is very possible that my memory is flawed. This is one of the best targets that I can't point our scopes at with certainty (the other is the Helix), and I frequently have to look around a bit. I am going to try the x pattern the next time I observe it.
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1230
Loc: Estonia
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The stuff I've been hearing in this thread is odd for me. I've heard it said before many times, and yet I can't apply it to myself.
In my 12", the central star of the cat's eye is hard to pick out from the nebulosity, and the blinking planetary doesn't blink. Is this some eye oddity, or a fairly common experience?
For example, with the blinking planetary, even in direct vision the nebulosity nearly overpowers the central star at x120.
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dpwoos
sage
Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 213
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As I said in my post above, not everybody I have observed with can readily/easily get the nebulosity to dim/disappear and the star to POP. I encourage them to stare at the star, and I don't remember anybody who finally was unable to see the effect, though maybe they are humoring me?! If I were you I would give it another go, as it is a pretty cool thing to see. STARE at it, and I bet it will blink for you. One final thing - I have only observed this stuff from rural-ish Vermont with mag. 5.5-5.9 skies. I don't know what I would see in a more light polluted environment, though I do assume that the effect would show even better with darker skies.
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lightfever
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/27/04
Posts: 1272
Loc: Macomb Michigan
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The nebula doesn't blink out in my 12.5" scope, but does so when I use the 8". I just noticed this a few days ago.
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Mark
Tasco 15-TE 76mm
Sky Watcher 80mm ED
AT-111 Triplet
XT8i (with Woden re-figured mirror)
Discovery 12.5" f/5 Premium DHQ (PDHQ Split-tube Dobsonian)
12.5" f/6.3 Dob (Underconstruction)
Celestron CG-5GT EQ Mount
Celestron C4 EQ Mount
"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to dance in the rain" unknown
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8275
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
That is a great sketch (as are your others) - it looks exactly like what I see through the eyepiece of my 10" f/6. Maybe the central star could be a bit brighter, but it is very possible that my memory is flawed. This is one of the best targets that I can't point our scopes at with certainty (the other is the Helix), and I frequently have to look around a bit. I am going to try the x pattern the next time I observe it.
You know, there is a rather funny "power effect" on the Cat's Eye that changes the way the central star appears. At lower powers (say under 120x), the central star at times seems to be quite prominent and easy, yet when I kick up the power to my usual 350+ power to see the faint interior detail, the central star becomes somewhat hard to see. In fact, if the seeing is bad, the star just vanishes in the central glow. What I think may explain this is the fact that the central star sits in a tiny inner ring-like shell close to the center of the main bright oval. At low power, what is being seen is a combination of that central star and the tiny inner shell. When I use enough power to make that inner shell show some size, it no longer highlights the tiny central star's spurious disk, so the star had to sort of "fend for itself". This might not be the correct explanation, but the phenomena does explain why I drew the central star so faintly. At low power, it is fairly prominent, but at high power, it doesn't seem nearly as easy to see. Take a look sometime and see what you think, as this is one interesting object to study. Clear skies to you.
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David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1230
Loc: Estonia
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Quote:
As I said in my post above, not everybody I have observed with can readily/easily get the nebulosity to dim/disappear and the star to POP. I encourage them to stare at the star, and I don't remember anybody who finally was unable to see the effect, though maybe they are humoring me?! If I were you I would give it another go, as it is a pretty cool thing to see. STARE at it, and I bet it will blink for you. One final thing - I have only observed this stuff from rural-ish Vermont with mag. 5.5-5.9 skies. I don't know what I would see in a more light polluted environment, though I do assume that the effect would show even better with darker skies.
I usually observe from 6-7 skies, and I notice dnly slightly more nebulosity with averted.
In fact, I seem to have a lot of 'problems' with planetary nebulae, as I see the nebulosities as incredibly intense bright patches, making the central stars hard to spot. Cats eye, x50, I couldn't see the central star at all. The nebulosity completely overpowered it.
I also never see a clear dark space in the middle of m57, as the nebulosity is so powerful, that while visible, the ring shape isn't entirely striking.
With m27, I also have trouble seeing the central bar thinning in the middle, since it just seems like a very bright, thick bar to me.
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lightfever
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/27/04
Posts: 1272
Loc: Macomb Michigan
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The central star has always seemed prominent to me but I have never been able to use powers as high as David mentioned. (Hardly ever get skies that steady) If the opportunity presents itself I will definitely give it a try at 300x +.
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Mark
Tasco 15-TE 76mm
Sky Watcher 80mm ED
AT-111 Triplet
XT8i (with Woden re-figured mirror)
Discovery 12.5" f/5 Premium DHQ (PDHQ Split-tube Dobsonian)
12.5" f/6.3 Dob (Underconstruction)
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"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to dance in the rain" unknown
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coutleef
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/21/08
Posts: 1708
Loc: Montréal and Saint-Donat, Québ...
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Quote:
The stuff I've been hearing in this thread is odd for me. I've heard it said before many times, and yet I can't apply it to myself.
In my 12", the central star of the cat's eye is hard to pick out from the nebulosity, and the blinking planetary doesn't blink. Is this some eye oddity, or a fairly common experience?
For example, with the blinking planetary, even in direct vision the nebulosity nearly overpowers the central star at x120.
The bliking is obvious to me in my 8" when i do not use a filter. With a filter, there is no more blinking.
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François
Scopes: Nexstar 8 SE with Ron's rail and Denk S1 Powerswitch. EPs list is on my Bio.
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Jeff Young
Post Laureate
Reged: 08/04/05
Posts: 4115
Loc: Ireland
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Yes, the blinking effect is very dependent on aperture and magnification. I get a good blink from the Blinking Planetary with an 8" at most magnifications, but only at very specific magnifications with a 16".
IC5217 blinks well in the 16" up to about 300X.
NGC1535 blinks at 510X in the 16", but there it's between the inner and outer shells, rather than between the shell and the central star.
On the original topic, I'm one of the "not much color" guys. Lots of nice detail in the Cat's Eye, but limited color below 300X and none above.
-- Jeff.
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Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO
Edited by Jeff Young (09/04/09 04:30 PM)
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dpwoos
sage
Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 213
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Another great sketch! In many ways I enjoy these sketches more than photos, because these depict the objects as we (can) see them, whereas photos are another thing entirely. Maybe this is the wrong forum, but I would like to read how you folks go about sketching a planetary, i.e. where do you start and in what order do you add the details.
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lightfever
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/27/04
Posts: 1272
Loc: Macomb Michigan
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I agree regarding the sketches and how they represent what is seen in the EP.
Hats off to the guys and gals doing the drawings. 
I have never tried to do one, and don't think I have the patience.
To me the Cats eye looks green and the blue snowball looks blue. I guess I'm lucky that I can pick up these colors.
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Mark
Tasco 15-TE 76mm
Sky Watcher 80mm ED
AT-111 Triplet
XT8i (with Woden re-figured mirror)
Discovery 12.5" f/5 Premium DHQ (PDHQ Split-tube Dobsonian)
12.5" f/6.3 Dob (Underconstruction)
Celestron CG-5GT EQ Mount
Celestron C4 EQ Mount
"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to dance in the rain" unknown
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dpwoos
sage
Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 213
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I am sure that patience is required to create these great sketches, but in my experience that same patience is required to observe fine/faint detail. In my astro club, there are a lot of folks who I don't think spend nearly enough time at the eyepiece, allowing their eyes and brain to learn the view. On another thread, I got beat up a little bit for saying that I didn't believe/accept certain claimed observations. In fact, in my club it is often the case that my claims are thought to push the boundaries. That is fine, and everybody has their own believe/accept threshold. However, some of the skeptics don't spend more than a minute or two studying the view before they say that they don't see whatever, and that is that. In my mind, that hurts their credibility. I have noodled with the idea of sketching myself, as not only would I learn something about sketching/drawing but I think that I would also further hone my observing skills.
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Jeff Young
Post Laureate
Reged: 08/04/05
Posts: 4115
Loc: Ireland
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Quote:
I am sure that patience is required to create these great sketches, but in my experience that same patience is required to observe fine/faint detail. ... I have noodled with the idea of sketching myself, as not only would I learn something about sketching/drawing but I think that I would also further hone my observing skills.
I highly recommend it. Sketching has certainly increased my observing skills. But I also find that it's very relaxing and that I enjoy sessions in which I sketch more than those in which I don't.
Cheers,
-- Jeff.
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Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO
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Tim L
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/17/08
Posts: 562
Loc: Austin, TX
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Quote:
Another great sketch! In many ways I enjoy these sketches more than photos, because these depict the objects as we (can) see them, whereas photos are another thing entirely. Maybe this is the wrong forum, but I would like to read how you folks go about sketching a planetary, i.e. where do you start and in what order do you add the details.
Dpwoos,
Here's a great link to another CN thread about sketching PNs. Wow. I'm really impressed at all the work that goes into everyone's beautiful sketchwork. It's a great way to combine 2 hobbies into one!
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Tim
Zhumell Z10 dob
Meade 60mm refractor
Zhumell 1.25" eyepiece and filter kit
Zhumell sky-glow, UHC, and OIII filters
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CounterWeight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 1292
Loc: PDX chronoplast
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This a reply to the op, but also other in thread. Sorry but i still forget and reply says to previous poster 
I've recently gone from using a C11XLT sct to my 160ed for visual and image. The 80 remains a guider or only wide field. Am re-calibrating how I see things and useful powers given night and atm / luna factors. Whatever the apeture this smaller planetary, the 'blur' of it compared to nearby stars a giveaway, n this even in my white zone. Has always seemed light blueish to grey bluish.
Magnitude: 8.30, Size: 22", Mean Surface Br. 14.7 Mag/arcsec^2
I usually drop in on at least one of these a night to sort of calibrate my seeing /sky. As commented the choice of ep/mag can have great change in way is perceived, I will usually go lowest (sweeper) to highest power and drop down to get best 'overall' luminosity/detail/color for fov/mag. Use of a good filter can be a plus but am finding not always required. I think planetary nebs, esp this sized and smaller are a real treat to find and explore - more so than fuzzy galaxies as they often have more color / color gradient / hue / definition and shading, and there are a lot of them.
I agree that the sketchings are a very much better resource about 'at the eyepiece'.
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 - 
CGE (Frankenmount mod.)
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