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magic612
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/08
Posts: 559
Loc: Somewhere south of Chicago, IL
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I've been doing some observing lately with the smaller aperture scopes I have around; namely, the 70mm refractors I bought for my daughters last Christmas. I even dragged out the REALLY old 50mm refractor that was my first "real" non-garage-sale telescope.
It really is different looking for DSO's that you're both familiar and unfamiliar with in these small scopes, and working to eke out as many photons as possible. And you know, there's a surprising number of the objects that CAN be seen with them. Sure, not so much the galaxies and faint nebula, but double stars and star clusters - particularly the open clusters - are quite the sights to behold, given the aperture. And hey - the COLOR! Double stars and certain other stars (Mu Cephei, for example) really seem to have a lot deeper colors that are more vivid in the smaller scopes.
WHY am I doing this, you ask? Good question! (Thought you'd never ask...)
Well, I figured that my daughters - excited as they were to GET their scopes - haven't exactly USED them since that time beyond the two times I helped them. And I realized that, "DUH!" - they don't know where to look! So I'm writing up clear, concise, step-by-step instructions with star charts on WHERE to look, and what one should expect to see.
It's fascinating going backwards in aperture, but you know, it's not as bad as one might think. I really appreciate even modestly larger apertures (like my 127mm refractor) that much MORE. I wouldn't say it's a "cure" for aperture fever, but it's a good salve, if nothing else.... 
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- Celestron C8+, Orion 90mm f/10, Orion ST-80, 5" f/8 Dob, 127mm f/9.4 refractor, 114mm f/8 on DS GoTo, 60mm Sears 6333-A, 127mm f4.4 refractor lens (current project), 12" f/5 mirror (future project)
- Orion Vista 10x50s (5 deg), Sears #6207 7x35 (7 deg), Jason #138 Statesman 7x35 (11.5 deg)
Yes, I'm addicted to telescopes and binoculars. I am getting help. Every time I look at the heavens, it helps.
http://www.eyesonthesky.com
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Jim Curry
sage
Reged: 10/29/07
Posts: 432
Loc: Maine
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Well obviously your next purchase for them should be a 6-8" refractor. That way if they tire from it you'll be "stuck" having to use that to see what they could have :>)
Jim
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Vixen 140 refractor
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magic612
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/08
Posts: 559
Loc: Somewhere south of Chicago, IL
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Heh - I WISH, Jim! As it is, my kids already say to me, "Dad, don't you have enough telescopes?" 
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- Celestron C8+, Orion 90mm f/10, Orion ST-80, 5" f/8 Dob, 127mm f/9.4 refractor, 114mm f/8 on DS GoTo, 60mm Sears 6333-A, 127mm f4.4 refractor lens (current project), 12" f/5 mirror (future project)
- Orion Vista 10x50s (5 deg), Sears #6207 7x35 (7 deg), Jason #138 Statesman 7x35 (11.5 deg)
Yes, I'm addicted to telescopes and binoculars. I am getting help. Every time I look at the heavens, it helps.
http://www.eyesonthesky.com
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astrokido
space wanderer
Reged: 06/09/08
Posts: 663
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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There is some logic in going to less aperture but not much. The typical experience starts out with small aperture, then some magnification and views soon get too dark. You get a bigger scope to grab more photons and you think you have it all.
Aperture comes at a cost though: heavier equipment, more expensive components, reduced TFOV's due to typically longer FL's, and probably even other tradeoffs. Widefield junkies notice those things, that's why binoculars are still so popular in astronomy even with big dobs everywhere.
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- Gill C. - Celestron Cometron CO-100, 10x25, 20x80, Binochair, Nikon D40
The Night Sky Atlas: www.nightskyatlas.com
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Different apertures give different views.
I routinely flip between my 12.5-inch Dob and my 70-mm refractor -- to say nothing of my various binoculars and my unaided eyes. I love them all.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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magic612
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/08
Posts: 559
Loc: Somewhere south of Chicago, IL
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Quote:
There is some logic in going to less aperture but not much.
True - but it wasn't going backwards simply for the sake of a smaller scopes' views. Writing up the "how to" charts was a large part of the motivation, but learning what CAN be seen in a smaller scope (and what can't) is a useful exercise.
Quote:
Aperture comes at a cost though: heavier equipment, more expensive components, reduced TFOV's due to typically longer FL's, and probably even other tradeoffs.
One I'd add is this: More time to set up / tear down. The 70mm was a "one handed grab-n-go" whereas even my 127mm refractor - which is still an easy set up, relatively - requires at least three trips in-and-out to get set up.
Quote:
Widefield junkies notice those things, that's why binoculars are still so popular in astronomy even with big dobs everywhere.
Agreed! I'm amazed at not only what binocs show, but I've used them to help me navigate star fields to make it easier to find a given object. Finding something first using the same orientation as both the eye and star chart makes the reversed and/or backwards star fields a far simpler navigation.
Tony - I love them all too!
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- Celestron C8+, Orion 90mm f/10, Orion ST-80, 5" f/8 Dob, 127mm f/9.4 refractor, 114mm f/8 on DS GoTo, 60mm Sears 6333-A, 127mm f4.4 refractor lens (current project), 12" f/5 mirror (future project)
- Orion Vista 10x50s (5 deg), Sears #6207 7x35 (7 deg), Jason #138 Statesman 7x35 (11.5 deg)
Yes, I'm addicted to telescopes and binoculars. I am getting help. Every time I look at the heavens, it helps.
http://www.eyesonthesky.com
Edited by magic612 (09/17/09 11:50 AM)
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edosaurusrex
super member
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 179
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I'm having fun using a 60mm f10 refractor. (My first telescope from 40 years ago) I grew up in a very light polluted area and could only concentrate on the Moon, planets, and brighter clusters back then.
Under dark skies the thing actually performs quite well and, as stated above, takes minimal set up time. The wider doubles are fun to look at as well.
By the way, hats off to you guys that do urban astronomy a la star hopping. Finding objects isn't easy when there aren't many stars to hop. (An Urban Star Atlas would have about 200 stars charted)
Ed
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RAKing
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/28/07
Posts: 2087
Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
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I've gone up and down in aperture like a roller coaster. I bought the biggest scope I could afford at first, then after many years went even bigger. Job changes and location changes forced me back to a smaller travel scope. A few years ago, I was able to go much bigger and thought things were cool - but health problems sent me back down again. 
I'm now back up to a "middle" size 9.25 inch SCT and this looks to be the biggest I can manage. But I have learned my lesson and will keep the 4 inch refractor just in case.... 
Ron
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Time spent looking at the stars is added to your life.
Tak FS-128, C925-CF, C6SE, other stray cats and refractors.
A-P Mach1 GTO
Zeiss orthos to Ethos - and some stuff in between.
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azure1961p
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
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Theres is nothing like the versatility of a small [70mm] refractor. Infact, the bigger the scopes you have, or have been accustomed to, the greater the surprising advantages of a quality small refractor.
I have to say - and this is really true - the bigger scopes are not offering a better satisfaction factor - just different. That's what really came home to me. It's tough to say, M51's arms are "better" tha n these sweeping lowpower widefield vistas of the milkyway. Deepsky objects now show a different context in how they are situated in the heavens. I cant believe any huge dob fan would snicker at Sagitarius through my 70mm Ranger at 15x.
I'm not saying it is a replacement. But, it is a compliment in the truest sense to larger scopes. In that sense, "going backwards" is one heck of a step forward. One of the BEST astronomy purchases ever.
Pete
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dpwoos
sage
Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 218
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My older son wasn't all that excited about observing with me until I started asking him to find stuff for us to observe. So, for example, I might ask him to get the Cat's Eye Nebula in the eyepiece of one scope, while I looked at something else in another scope/binos, or went in to get us more cocoa+coffee (aka "observing juice"). He was pretty little when we started do this, and now he has a lifelong skill and interest. My younger son became the Moon maven, and we defer to him for choosing targets and teaching us about them. Start with easy stuff (Moon, Alberio, M31, M24, Double Cluster, etc.) In fact, one of the first targets that they both learned was NGC 457. It has become a ritual for us to view it every time out (if possible), and we always show it to kids at public events. We call this cluster the "Little Friend", and M34 (which to my kids looked similar) became the "False Friend" or the "Twisted Friend". My kids liked (and still like) this kind of stuff - yours might too.
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magic612
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/08
Posts: 559
Loc: Somewhere south of Chicago, IL
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Thanks for the great stories and thoughts, everyone. Much as I like my bigger scopes (and can't wait to get a 12" Dob made, for which I have the primary mirror), there is something to using a small scope. To my eyes, the color of individual stars is deeper and more vivid. The (often) longer focal ratios has it's advantages in creating greater contrast. And the lightweight, "pick-up-and-go" simplicity is unmatched by any larger scope I've seen (except for permanent observatory instruments).
dpwoos - good call on NGC 457; that's an easily overlooked object that I'd bet many beginning observers don't even know to look for.
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- Celestron C8+, Orion 90mm f/10, Orion ST-80, 5" f/8 Dob, 127mm f/9.4 refractor, 114mm f/8 on DS GoTo, 60mm Sears 6333-A, 127mm f4.4 refractor lens (current project), 12" f/5 mirror (future project)
- Orion Vista 10x50s (5 deg), Sears #6207 7x35 (7 deg), Jason #138 Statesman 7x35 (11.5 deg)
Yes, I'm addicted to telescopes and binoculars. I am getting help. Every time I look at the heavens, it helps.
http://www.eyesonthesky.com
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Astraforce Paul
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 1879
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magic612, great opening post! You've captured well what small scopes can do. I often like seeing DSOs in their large sky context-- small ball of a globular, unresolved, but nestled among surrounding stars. It provides a much different look at the cluster--and often as satisfying as using high power in a larger scope with a dimmer view!
And the large star clusters are so much better in the smaller scopes... especially rich field ones. It's great sweeping along the Milky Way. And the wider fovs of the small scopes can be just grand for conjunctions (e.g., Venus and the Moon, or the Moon and the Pleiades).
Observing for a while with a smaller scope will also make a modest size scope seem even larger when you return to it. Agreed, not a cure for aperture fever, but much less expensive! 
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TomN
sage
Reged: 01/14/09
Posts: 264
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My 6-inch refractor and 8-inch cat have not seen light all year. My most commonly used telescope is my 66mm refractor followed by the Televue 101. Yep, small aperture has it's benefits.
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Amateur Astronomer since 1962.
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stevecoe
"Astronomical Tourist"
Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2645
Loc: Arizona, USA
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Tom, et al;
I purchased a TV 102 at the Table Mountain Star Party in July. I have had several viewing sessions and am very happy with its performance. Lots of great wide views to be had with an RFT refractor.
I have been viewing with a 6" refractor for the past 18 months or so and having lots of fun. It is the smallest main scope I have owned in 33 years of observing the sky. There is lots of be said for downsizing and enjoying the "smaller view". I call my observing list the "Small Telescope Observing Project".
Lots of fun;
Steve Coe
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TeleVue 102 refractor on CGEM mount
10 inch f/4.7 Newtonian
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10502
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
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Quote:
Different apertures give different views.
I routinely flip between my 12.5-inch Dob and my 70-mm refractor -- to say nothing of my various binoculars and my unaided eyes. I love them all.
I ran the gamut from logging as many DSOs naked-eye as I could, using binoculars as small as 8x42 and as large as 30x125, and observing with telescopes ranging in aperture from 80mm to 32" during last week's Black Forest Star Party.
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Duane Frybarger
member
Reged: 02/12/07
Posts: 55
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Last year, I went to a cabin in the Cobb Mountain area near Clear Lake in Northern California and took my 9.25" SCT (recently traded for an MN66) along with my little 62mm Comet Catcher which I picked up at Goodwill for $14.95. It turned out there was no appropriate place to set up my big SCT, so I put the little F5 refractor on a bogen mount with a video head and had a blast. It was so much fun seeing familiar favorites in a totally new context. I even saw IC 1396 with no filter easily! On another trip last year to a B&B north of Fort Bragg, I took just two small scopes, my C5 and my 80ED. The views through the 80ED were marvelous, with my view of M33 being my favorite on that trip. And, of course, every clear day in San Francisco, I use my smallest scope for my most dynamic and detailed views of any stellar object, my PST!
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Duane Frybarger
http://virtualcolony.com/blog/ - my sidewalk astronomy blog
PST
Orion ST80 w/ Lunt 50mm filter
Cometron 62mm Comet Catcher ($14.99 at Goodwill!)
Celestron ED80
Celestron 100ED
Celestron C5 SCT
Intes MN66
13" Coulter home built ball mount newtonian
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TomN
sage
Reged: 01/14/09
Posts: 264
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This is actually one of my favorite topics here and it pops up often in many of the forums...
It is very true that there is nothing like the versatility of a small refractor. I love the ease of setup (basically I just haul it outside on it's mount with an eyepiece or two. I often get up in the middle of the night to observe and as I am not totally awake, having a small refractor that is quick and easy to setup is a real benefit. Plus, there is nothing quite like the ultra wide fields of view you can get!! Tom
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Amateur Astronomer since 1962.
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magic612
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/08
Posts: 559
Loc: Somewhere south of Chicago, IL
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This is quite inspiring to read about so many people who not only have a larger scope, but also enjoy the views through a smaller one! 
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- Celestron C8+, Orion 90mm f/10, Orion ST-80, 5" f/8 Dob, 127mm f/9.4 refractor, 114mm f/8 on DS GoTo, 60mm Sears 6333-A, 127mm f4.4 refractor lens (current project), 12" f/5 mirror (future project)
- Orion Vista 10x50s (5 deg), Sears #6207 7x35 (7 deg), Jason #138 Statesman 7x35 (11.5 deg)
Yes, I'm addicted to telescopes and binoculars. I am getting help. Every time I look at the heavens, it helps.
http://www.eyesonthesky.com
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JakeSaloranta
sage
Reged: 09/18/08
Posts: 234
Loc: Sisu, Sauna, Sibelius...
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My aperture fever started when I got my 8" Orion years ago. Few years later I "downgraded" to 3" Konus refractor, few years back I got an upgrade to my 4.7" Sky-Watcher refractor.
The 4.7" is exactly the right size to fit into a large traveling backpack (might be ugly but it works):
Grab that, get on a bicycle and away we go!
/Jake
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Jack Tripper
sage
Reged: 05/10/09
Posts: 349
Loc: Canada
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I wish I could go forward in aperture but backwards in weight. An 11" SCT is my upper limit. I often miss the 8".
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Celestron CPC 1100
Denkmeier S2 Power Filter Switch Diagonal (.66x Reducer, 2x Barlow)
Ethos 17mm, Baader Scopos 30mm
Lunt 60mm Hydrogen-Alpha Solar Scope, Lunt Zoom
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