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YankeeJeff
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/11/06
Posts: 537
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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According to The Urban Astronomer's Guide by Rod Mollise, I should be able to see every Messier object from my Urban site - including the so-called difficult ones. M33 is one of those difficult ones. Can folks give me some tips to try and snag this?
I have a Z10 - 10" Mirror, 1250mm FL, f/4.92 with the eyepieces listed below. I also have filters but I don't think they'll apply here. I'm a little confused about the size of this object. My Astromist software for example, has a little circle within a much larger circle. I know I should know better by now and speak in terms of minutes and arc-seconds but I'd appreciate any help here. What eyepiece would it best fit inside of? By "best" I guess I mean where I would get the best mag for contrast against it's surroundings??
It's new moon soon, and my CSC looks OK so I might pull a couple of all nighters. This will be done from my backyard however - which is a white-zone/borderline Red-zone area. Any suggestions beyond telling me to get to a dark site? Thanks -Jeff
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Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
24Pan, 17T4, 13T6, 11T6, 9BTMB, 8TVpl, 7T6, 5T6, 3.5T6, 5/6BTMBs
Z10"Dob, Paracorr, 2xBrlw, Telrad, RACI,°Circles, )Spider
FBF, Brooklyn: 
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1230
Loc: Estonia
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Make sure you starhop to the right place, and then make sure you know exactly where you are. This isn't a galaxy that you can swing to easily in a light polluted environment. Then look for a slight brightening of the background.
It might be easier than that, but probably won't be. And really, this is one of those galaxies where aperture is no saving grace. Also use your lowest power.
Dark adapt to a ridiculous degree as well, and don't use any red light beyond barely visible.
Also might be worth taking a shot at NGC 604 instead of M33. I've heard reports that some people see it with less effort than the galaxy it's housed in, although I haven't had a chance to see if that applies for me as well.
As for size, it ain't no slouch. It's not M31, but it's pretty damn huge. That being said, with light pollution, it's one of those galaxies that might be pretty much reduced to a small core. And M33 doesn't have much of a core.
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YankeeJeff
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/11/06
Posts: 537
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely make sure to be as much dark adapted as possible.
My 24pan gives me ~60x - is that enough in my light polluted skies?
How much (%) of the eyepiece FOV will the galaxy take up in my 17T4 (84.6x) .97 True field for example?
Will it fit in the FOV of a 13mm eyepiece (110x) .70 true field? Or will I not notice it in the 13mm because it'll be bigger than the FOV?
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Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
24Pan, 17T4, 13T6, 11T6, 9BTMB, 8TVpl, 7T6, 5T6, 3.5T6, 5/6BTMBs
Z10"Dob, Paracorr, 2xBrlw, Telrad, RACI,°Circles, )Spider
FBF, Brooklyn:
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14719
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely make sure to be as much dark adapted as possible.
My 24pan gives me ~60x - is that enough in my light polluted skies?
How much (%) of the eyepiece FOV will the galaxy take up in my 17T4 (84.6x) .97 True field for example?
Will it fit in the FOV of a 13mm eyepiece (110x) .70 true field? Or will I not notice it in the 13mm because it'll be bigger than the FOV?
If you had an eyepiece that would do it, I'd tell you to go DOWN to 20x or 30x. I observe M33 in 10x50 binoculars. I saw it just this morning in 22x85 binoculars with 3° fov. It probably filled 1/3 of the fov. You may be having a problem, 1) because of bright skies and/or 2) because your fov is not large enough.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1230
Loc: Estonia
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Quote:
Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely make sure to be as much dark adapted as possible.
My 24pan gives me ~60x - is that enough in my light polluted skies?
How much (%) of the eyepiece FOV will the galaxy take up in my 17T4 (84.6x) .97 True field for example?
Will it fit in the FOV of a 13mm eyepiece (110x) .70 true field? Or will I not notice it in the 13mm because it'll be bigger than the FOV?
Theoretically it'll take up all your .97 deg FOV. Pratcially, however, it probably won't. That being said, you probably don't want to magnify this object, as it'll spread out what little light there is. Of course, it's worth a try to go through all your mags. NGC 604, as well as the very core might be helped by pumping mag.
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YankeeJeff
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/11/06
Posts: 537
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Wow - 1/3 of a 3° fov? This thing is huge. Does that mean it covers the entire fov in the 24PAN for me (~1.1° TFOV) or am I not calculating correctly? I'll never see it from this location if I have to use a 24mm eyepiece - what was Rod Mollise talking about? RATS! I will still try tonight but I think this is impossible.
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Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
24Pan, 17T4, 13T6, 11T6, 9BTMB, 8TVpl, 7T6, 5T6, 3.5T6, 5/6BTMBs
Z10"Dob, Paracorr, 2xBrlw, Telrad, RACI,°Circles, )Spider
FBF, Brooklyn:
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YankeeJeff
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/11/06
Posts: 537
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Just saw your post Hrundi - thank you. I don't know. I'll see what I can observe tonight and tomorrow. I've been pushing the limits on other objects from my site and have been getting a lot of satisafaction out of capturing them - but this guy might just elude me.
Entire Messier list from NYC a pipe dream? To be continued...
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Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
24Pan, 17T4, 13T6, 11T6, 9BTMB, 8TVpl, 7T6, 5T6, 3.5T6, 5/6BTMBs
Z10"Dob, Paracorr, 2xBrlw, Telrad, RACI,°Circles, )Spider
FBF, Brooklyn:
Edited by YankeeJeff (09/18/09 11:48 AM)
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1230
Loc: Estonia
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It might not be impossible. I know there's been sightings of M101 from urban skies, and that, in my opinion, is a far more difficult nut to crack than M33.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
According to The Urban Astronomer's Guide by Rod Mollise, I should be able to see every Messier object from my Urban site - including the so-called difficult ones. M33 is one of those difficult ones. Can folks give me some tips to try and snag this?
It's certainly *not* the case that every Messier object is visible from *every* urban site. I've seen them all from here in Cambridge, MA, and I know people who have seen them all from upper Manhattan. But depending exactly where in Brooklyn you live (it's kinda big!), your skies may be significantly brighter than those in upper Manhattan. I doubt that all the Messier objects could be seen from Midtown, for instance.
As for the size of M33 -- yes, it is indeed huge. But you won't see all of that in a city -- not even close. All you're likely to see is the bright central core, less than 10' across. (See my description here.)
Curiously, in suburban conditions, many people find M33 easier to see in binoculars than in telescopes. I've known people to find it completely invisible at any power through a 10-inch scope, but to be able to see it easily through 10x50 binoculars. Two eyes are definitely better than one when it comes to viewing faint nebulosity!
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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YankeeJeff
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/11/06
Posts: 537
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Thanks Tony. I'm originally from the Bronx, and have travelled into upper Manhattan many times. I'm almost certain my site is comparable if not better for observing. Do you recall if the folks who saw all the Messier objects from upper Manahattan were using a 10" scope or larger? It does give me hope that people have been able to do this here. I'll also take out the 15X70 Binos tonight on the chance it can happen that way. Thanks for the input.
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Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
24Pan, 17T4, 13T6, 11T6, 9BTMB, 8TVpl, 7T6, 5T6, 3.5T6, 5/6BTMBs
Z10"Dob, Paracorr, 2xBrlw, Telrad, RACI,°Circles, )Spider
FBF, Brooklyn:
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Thanks Tony. I'm originally from the Bronx, and have travelled into upper Manhattan many times. I'm almost certain my site is comparable if not better for observing. Do you recall if the folks who saw all the Messier objects from upper Manahattan were using a 10" scope or larger?
I recall two people doing it with 4-inch refractors -- though I can't recall the details. And if you can do it with a 4-incher, you *certainly* can do it with a 10-incher.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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coutleef
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/21/08
Posts: 1708
Loc: Montréal and Saint-Donat, Québ...
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I am using a 8". From a dark site, i tried to see it and just could not at first. I stared and stared and stared and suddenly, it became visible. I had seen several other galaxies before looking at M33, including NGC 7331 just before trying M33, and was expecting it to be like M51. I could not figure out why i was seeing so easily a NGC galaxies but could not nail down a Messier galaxy that is supposed to be seen from a dark site with naked eyes.
M33 will not look like the other galaxies. It is very faint and very spread out (quite big). When i realized i was looking at it, i was surprised i had missed it initially, since it was so obvious now.
If you do not see it but you are sure you are at the right place, keep looking even if the area looks empty. Surprisingly, it will pop out. And once you have seen it once, it will be easier the other times. I found it to be challenging because it is so different from the other galaxies we usually try to see.
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François
Scopes: Nexstar 8 SE with Ron's rail and Denk S1 Powerswitch. EPs list is on my Bio.
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1230
Loc: Estonia
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M33 is definitely an incredibly odd galaxy. One time at a dark site I panned over to it, and it looked like a mini M32. Bright core, huge halo, dimming towards the edges. Actually reminded me a bit of some elliptical galaxies. Weather didn't permit me to stick around and check for arms though.
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10442
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
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Quote:
It might not be impossible. I know there's been sightings of M101 from urban skies, and that, in my opinion, is a far more difficult nut to crack than M33.
I agree. M101 is at least a bit more difficult than M33. Both of these galaxies have been easy binocular (8x42 and 15x70) and small refractor (80 and 101mmm) targets from Cherry Springs this week.
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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wfj
sage
Reged: 01/10/08
Posts: 258
Loc: California, Santa Cruz County
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I was looking at it the night before in a 12.5" in the orange zone at 50x. Some suggestion of arms, and didn't have much trouble with 4 of the HII regions, and all kinds of trouble with the fainter HII regions. Did better with the HII's at 250x.
I spend a while on the HII regions, and could make out with AV the boundary with the "nucleus". Biggest issue was the LP leaves you with "shades of grey", where you can perceive it in outline as the lightest of gradation.
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YankeeJeff
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/11/06
Posts: 537
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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This is encouraging folks, thanks. I'm going to keep trying the next few nights.
I'm basically going to make sure my eyes are cat-like dark adapted and try everything starting w/ the Binos, 24Pan, and 17T4. Hopefully I'll make out some fuzz in the area.
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Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
24Pan, 17T4, 13T6, 11T6, 9BTMB, 8TVpl, 7T6, 5T6, 3.5T6, 5/6BTMBs
Z10"Dob, Paracorr, 2xBrlw, Telrad, RACI,°Circles, )Spider
FBF, Brooklyn:
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
M33 will not look like the other galaxies. It is very faint and very spread out (quite big).
Well, these things are all relative. I consider M33 to be just about average. Most of the Messier galaxies have surface brightness well above average -- that's why Messier could see them. Then there's a whole spectrum of galaxies with surface brightness ranging from fainter than M33 to *much* fainter than M33.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Tim L
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/17/08
Posts: 556
Loc: Austin, TX
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Hi Jeff,
I tried all last winter without success to catch M33. Last month, I went to a dark site and was able to view it. Now, back in my own (red zone) backyard, and knowing exactly where to look, I can faintly glimpse it.
I would suggest using Stellarium or some other program and learning some of the dim star asterisms next to it. I recognize a squareish shape next to it, and the galaxy itself is within another square. If you can pick these out (or others of your making) in your eyepiece, it might help you to focus on that spot where you KNOW it has to be.
Good luck--if you get it, you deserve to feel proud!
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Tim
Zhumell Z10 dob
Meade 60mm refractor
Zhumell 1.25" eyepiece and filter kit
Zhumell sky-glow, UHC, and OIII filters
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Alpha Orionis
super member
Reged: 06/04/09
Posts: 100
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
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ive "seen" it with binoculars 10x50 from my red zone light polluted backyard. granted it didnt look like anything, and the galaxy was so "subtle" that i had to pan the binos around to make sure i was seeing what i thought i was seeing..
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Astronomical Observation Equipment:
Zhumell Z12 Deluxe
Celestron Powerseeker 127EQ
10x50 Bushnell Binos
A good Pair of eyes
Home Observation site:
Salt Lake City
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rocco13
Got Milk?
Reged: 07/29/06
Posts: 2643
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
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Yeah, slowly moving the scope helps detecting (and confirming) both M33 and M101, at least for me when at home in the suburbs.
At dark sky sites, they're both readily visible, but unfortunately, 98% of my observing is NOT done under dark skies. <sigh>
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Rocco
Zhumell Z12
Super C8 (1984 vintage)
Celestron 102 f/5
and a cheap pair of binoculars
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