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skypilgrim
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/25/06
Posts: 558
Loc: Under a cloud
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Say what you will about little 80mm scopes (mine is a SV) but they do provide nice, wide fields. I've had this thing for 6 years but to my recollection I can't remember trying for the Veil before, (in this scope).
We were at a dark sky site, seeing and transparency were only fair... but it was dark! My widest field ocular is a 70deg AFOV Axiom and I used an Orion Ultrablock nebula filter. I am pleased to report I could get the entire Veil in the FOV. The Eastern half was quite prominent but the Western half was much harder to pick out. I didn't see any of the smaller tendrals in the middle. I don't know how much more I could have seen with better transparency but I was still excited I got the whole thing.
I've seen one half or the other in other scopes, usually brighter, but this was pretty cool to get it all. 
Sam
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AL Messier certificate #2078
AL Double Star certificate #354
Area of interest: Cultural Astronomy
My Blog: http://fathersky.wordpress.com/
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7331Peg
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/01/08
Posts: 725
Loc: North coast of Oregon
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I've done the same thing with a TV85. With an OIII filter and a black, transparent sky, the view just pulls the breath right out of you.
Beats the heck out of a TV screen!
John
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8279
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
Say what you will about little 80mm scopes (mine is a SV) but they do provide nice, wide fields. I've had this thing for 6 years but to my recollection I can't remember trying for the Veil before, (in this scope).
We were at a dark sky site, seeing and transparency were only fair... but it was dark! My widest field ocular is a 70deg AFOV Axiom and I used an Orion Ultrablock nebula filter. I am pleased to report I could get the entire Veil in the FOV. The Eastern half was quite prominent but the Western half was much harder to pick out. I didn't see any of the smaller tendrals in the middle. I don't know how much more I could have seen with better transparency but I was still excited I got the whole thing.
I've seen one half or the other in other scopes, usually brighter, but this was pretty cool to get it all.
Sam
Yea, I have done the same thing in my 80mm f/5 refractor (Celestron's version of the "short tube"). With the 24mm Panoptic, I get a 3.87 degree field of view at 17x, and I can get both NGC 6992 and NGC 6960 in the field, as well as the very faint patch of "Pickering's Triangle" in between. I usually use the OIII filter rather than a narrow-band like the Ultrablock, but the Ultrablock will still help. I really like the view in my 100mm f/6 using my 40mm Mk-70 2" Konig and the OIII (4.39 degree field of view at 15x), although sometimes I like to borrow a friend of mine's 36mm Hyperion for the job. The extra power sometimes helps a bit more than the wide field of view. Even the 24mm Pan (2.58 degree true field at 25x) can show me the entirety of each "half" of the Veil's shell, and the 100mm aperture helps with bringing out Pickering's Triangle a bit better (kind of marginal in the 80mm f/5). Clear skies to you.
--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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My best-ever view of the Veil as a whole was through my 4.5-inch Starblast with a 25-mm Plossl and an O-III filter. Incredible view of both arcs, Pickering's wedge, and all kinds of tendrils in and around. And the price was certainly right: scope, eyepiece, and filter cost well under $500.
--------------------
Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1057
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Sam,
Congratulations on Lifting the Veil! I can also verify that an 80mm short tube refractor will give excellent views of the Veil at a dark site. (No APOs necessary.) I took my Orion ST80 to a green zone site this summer and was blown away by the Veil, the North America Nebula and even the Pelican! I had upgraded my ST80 to use a Crayford focuser, so it could accommodate 2" eyepieces. For the Veil, I used a Knight Owl 30mm 80 degree AFOV 2" eyepiece and a Celestron OIII filter. This setup gave me a 6 degree field of view at 13x. I could see the Western and Eastern sections of the Veil, as well as Pickering's Triangular Wisp between them. There was plenty of detail visible in all parts of the Veil, and plenty of field around it to put the entire Veil into context. For wide, low surface brightness objects like that Veil, you can't beat a wide field scope with the proper filter. Others advised me to look again at higher power with a larger aperture instrument. I've done that since then with my 10" Newt, but it's just not the same. I prefer a wide view of these big objects. Nothing beats a little RFT for that! I intend to try the California Nebula next.
Clear Skies,
Mike
P.S.: Have you looked at the North America Nebula with your 80mm? If not give it a try. An OIII filter worked well for me. I couldn't see the NA with my 10" Newt. (Or at least if I did see it, I couldn't distinguish it from the star fields it was in.) Some objects are just not meant for high power and narrow fields.
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1057
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Sam,
Try looking at the Veil through your 80mm again at a darker site or when the sky is more transparent where you looked at first. Seeing all the sections of the Veil, including the middle parts, in one big field of view is a wonderful sight.
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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dpwoos
sage
Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 218
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I enjoy a wide-field view of the Veil, but for me it doesn't compare to the great views in my 10" f/6, and that doesn't compare to what I see in my friend's 17". The 3-dimensional vine-like twists and knots that are stunning (not an exaggeration) in the 17" are much more subtle in the 10", whereas in smaller scopes the Veil looks fairly 2-dimensional. In fact, I can't think of another common target where the 17" scope so obviously outperforms my 10".
I have never looked at the North American in the 17", but in my 10" it looks fantastic and the Pelican looks great as well. Tremendous detail, and great fun to cruise around and study the different parts.
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caheaton
super member
Reged: 05/26/09
Posts: 157
Loc: SW Ohio
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I was able to catch the Eastern portion of the Veil last weekend in my ETX-80. I could see it without the filter, but it looked much better with an (Astronomic) UHC-E filter in place. I couldn't make out the Western segment, but perhaps on another night. That same night the North American Nebula was also a fairly easy catch, with the dark component clearly standing out like a dark coal sack in the sky. Simply beautiful!
Craig
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Achernar
Postmaster
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 5025
Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
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Good for you, I've accomplished the same thing with the same kind of telescope and nebula filter too. Try an O-III too, I got a great look at the North American Nebula that way.
Taras
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15-inch F/4.5 Dob under construction
10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
4 1/4-inch F/4 Homebuilt reflector
A whole bunch of eyepieces, filters and other accessories....
Two curious cats
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skypilgrim
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/25/06
Posts: 558
Loc: Under a cloud
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Hi Sarkikos,
Yes, I have seen the NA Nebula with the 80mm achro. It isn't as wide so I didn't make as big a fuss over it. That one I saw last year under better skies and was blown away by the view. I also saw the Pelican which was actually easier than I had heard. I don't know why I didn't attempt the Veil at that time.
Sounds like an excellent upgrade to your Orion ST80! 
Hmmm, everyone seems to be using an OIII. Perhaps I need to look into one of those 
Thanks for the great reports everyone.
Sam
--------------------
AL Messier certificate #2078
AL Double Star certificate #354
Area of interest: Cultural Astronomy
My Blog: http://fathersky.wordpress.com/
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1057
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Sam,
Quote:
Yes, I have seen the NA Nebula with the 80mm achro. It isn't as wide so I didn't make as big a fuss over it. That one I saw last year under better skies and was blown away by the view. I also saw the Pelican which was actually easier than I had heard. I don't know why I didn't attempt the Veil at that time.
I have tried to see the NA naked eye while holding up an OIII filter, and also in my 10" Newt, but didn't really have success until I took the ST80 to a green zone site. The Pelican in the ST80 was fainter than the NA but it was defintely there. To me, it looked more like another body of land across the Gulf of Mexico than a pelican.
Quote:
Sounds like an excellent upgrade to your Orion ST80!
Yes, I highly recommend it. The ST80 didn't show its full potential until I was able to use 2" eyepieces. The 30mm 2" eyepiece gave 6 degrees and about a 6mm exit pupil, which is pretty much ideal for rich field views for middle-aged guys like me.  IMHO, some objects just look better in a wide field at low power. The NA, Pelican and Veil are in that category. YMMV
Quote:
Hmmm, everyone seems to be using an OIII. Perhaps I need to look into one of those
The OIII really makes the NA and Veil stand out and reveals more detail. IMHO, under many skies, the OIII would mean the difference between seeing them fairly well and barely seeing them, if at all.
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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JMW
member
Reged: 02/11/07
Posts: 40
Loc: Nevada
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I was out under very dark Nevada skies until 5AM Sunday morning.
I just got a Panoptic 41mm. I put an OIII filter on it and put it in
my SV115T. The whole veil just fit. The inner parts of the veil were harder
to see but the eastern and western parts popped out nicely. After about
20 minutes on the veil I then spent time on the North America and Pelican
nebula. The pan41 gives me 3.3 degrees which is enough to appreciate the
bigger picture. It is amazing what a difference darks skies can make.
4.5 inches 1 hour outside of Reno beat 12 inches in town.
Jeff
--------------------
Stellarvue ST115T Refractor
Celestron CPC-925 SCT
Zhumell Z12 Deluxe Dob
Orion EON80ED Refractor
Televue Panoptic 41; Naglar 22T4, 17T4, 12T4, 9T6, 7T6, 5T6
Atlas Mount w/ EQMOD
DM-4 Mount with Sky Commander
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10494
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
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I've observed the Veil Nebula complex with my 80mm achromat and 80 ED refractors, as well as the North America and California Nebula. My 101mm refractor produces a 4.4 degree TFOV with a 35mm Panoptic and provides excellent views of these nebulae from a dark site.
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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skyward_eyes
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/12/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Arizona
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Ive seen the entire Veil with a ST-80 fromt he Grand Canyon Star Party. The best view with a refractor though was a TeleVue Genisis from the GCSP.
I still think the best scope to use is a good 10"-16" scope becasue they still have FOVs that can each portion. I have had several experienced observers completment my scope when it was on the Veil, the view is awesome!
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RolandosCY
member
Reged: 01/02/09
Posts: 18
Loc: Nicosia, Cyprus
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Quote:
Sam,
Try looking at the Veil through your 80mm again at a darker site or when the sky is more transparent where you looked at first. Seeing all the sections of the Veil, including the middle parts, in one big field of view is a wonderful sight.
Mike
100% true. During the summer and fall the veil is a prominent target for me. Although my 12-inch dob gives amazing views of each portion, aesthetically I prefer the "big picture". Using my ED80Pro refractor with 31mm Nagler and a 2-inch UHC filter gives a wonderful view of the whole Veil complex (including the central sections) that fits easily in the 4-degree plus field of view. Simply breathtaking!
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The Darker the Better!
=======================
SkyWatcher FlexTube 305 Dob
Orion Optics GPDX250 f4.8 Newt
Takahashi FS102 Refractor
SkyWatcher ED80 Pro
Konus 4.5" Newt
Parks 60mm f11 Refractor
Vixen GP-DX mount
Takahashi EM10 Mount
Televue Ethos 13mm
Televue Nagler 31mm, 11mm, 7mm
Televue Panoptic 27mm, 19mm
Televue 2X Barlows
Lumicon UHC and H-beta filters
Takahashi "Astronomer" 22x60 binos
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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Using my home-made right angle bino in the 21x60 configuration, both the east and west portions are easily enough seen simultaneously. Insert the Orion Ultrablock filters and Pickering's Wisp pops into view, too.
By the way, I should add that the eyepieces are 13mm Ethoi, yielding a true field of 4.7 degrees at 20.8X. Two eyes rule!
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Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6034
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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I tried it a few months ago with my 80ST and got a very pleasant surprise. 
--------------------
 Authoring the monthly AstroSketch page in "Sky at Night" magazine
Lunar Sketch Tutorial
CN Gallery
Photo Gallery
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Downward Bound
Adrenaline Junkie
Reged: 03/29/06
Posts: 2641
Loc: Seattle
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Very nice sketch Carol!! 
--------------------
Bill
'flector: R200SS, 22" f/3.6 (on order)
'fractors: PST, AT-66, TV-85, FS-102, NP-127, TMB-152
'bins: 15x63, 10x52, 22x85
410+028B, Sphinx, Telepod, EZ Touch, G-11
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6034
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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Thank you, Bill.
It was lovely to finally see the entire Veil in one fov.
--------------------
Authoring the monthly AstroSketch page in "Sky at Night" magazine
Lunar Sketch Tutorial
CN Gallery
Photo Gallery
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Cygnus_x1
Sketcher Extraordinaire
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 2387
Loc: 50N - too far north!
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I saw the entire Veil through a giant pair of WW2-vintage Japanese binoculars (these came from a battleship) at the 2008 TSP. It was a fabulous sight with the wide view of these binoculars.
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Visual Deep Sky Observing - being rebuilt
Observing blog
My astronomy event photos on Flickr
12 inch Dob
8 inch Celestron C8 Newtonian
4 inch Meade SCT
8x42 Leica binoculars
Various TeleVue eyepieces
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1057
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Carol,
Very nice sketch! Yes, that's the Veil in an ST80 and an OIII, no doubt about it.
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6034
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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Thanks Mike!
--------------------
Authoring the monthly AstroSketch page in "Sky at Night" magazine
Lunar Sketch Tutorial
CN Gallery
Photo Gallery
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