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I've also seen the spiral arms of M51 in my 8" Newt. That was right beside my house in the middle of a red zone. It wasn't a matter of fulfilling expectations or averted imagination. The spiral arms were definitely there. M51 looked like one of those sweet pecan rolls. (I don't know why some DSOs look like food to me. M11, the Wild Duck, looks like a plate of hominey. ) I could also see the bridge to M51's companion. So it can be done. It is a matter of technique, practice, making sure your eyes are dark-adapted, and getting lucky with a transparent sky.

Clear Skies,
Mike

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So if Mike had been the original person naming the constellations, we wouldn't have gods and animals, we would have a star "menu".

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Garland Coulson
Orion XT8i Dob & Celestron 80 ED on a Vixen Porta Mount Mini
Baader Hyperion 8-24mm Click Zoom & Siebert Observatory 36mm
Siebert Black Knight Binoviewers
SkyWatcher Observing Chair
Celestron Skymaster 15x70mm binos

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One thing that has yet to be mentioned is the sky position of the object being attempted . While faint detail may be a tough nut to crack at 30 degrees off horizon , it may be downright easy when the object is at zenith . Take into consideration the amount of atmosphere that you are trying to peer through . Of course everything else mentioned still comes into play such as transparency , atmospheric stability , a little patience at the eyepiece , etc. Another consideration would be the proper magnification used . (Too little or too much) There is a "Goldylocks" or "fine line" area here that can make or break the view . I've seen fine structural detail in objects through my 8" that are said to be impossible without 10 to 12 to 16 inches in aperture . Go figure ?

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I think that authors or people who say some things are "impossible without 10 to 12 to 16 inches" are perhaps working from less than great sites (or don't get out nearly as much as they need to ). An 8 inch will show the spiral form of M51 at the proper magnification. Indeed, I have seen at least an indication of spiral structure in a six inch Newtonian, and in a four inch, the darn thing looks quite mottled, being perhaps on the verge of showing the spiral arms. M31 is a particularly teasing beast for an 8 inch, as you can see the dust lanes and one of the star clouds (NGC 206) at moderate power, but the rest of the spiral structure remains somewhat vague (unless you are using a Rich-field telescope and can see the whole thing). I actually like it better in my 100mm f/6 at around 17x to 25x. M33 shows weak but visible mottled spiral patchyness in an 8 inch, as do a few other galaxies. Clear skies to you.

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David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org

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So if Mike had been the original person naming the constellations, we wouldn't have gods and animals, we would have a star "menu".

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Well, we can do without the gods, but you can eat some of the animals. We have Cygnus the Swan: a lot of neck meat there. Cancer the Crab is especially popular here in Maryland. Pisces (two Northern fish and one from down South) make it a seafood platter. The Japanese like Cetus the Whale, but I'll pass. The Chinese could probably make a nice Dragon soup out of Draco. Taurus the Bull makes a great burger. If you don't mind horse meat, there's Pegasus and Equuleus, who's young and tender. If you like Southern cuisine, Pavo the Peacock's tongue is considered a delicacy. M11 the Wild Duck is a little gamey, and it's not a constellation, but hey, I'm hungry!

Clear Skies and a Full Plate!
Mike

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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!

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Jay, I wonder if this might be due to getting your eyes "experienced" so as to detect subtle detail, or is it some of these elusive and fleeting but incredibly good moments of seeing?

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Whew, I've been working 10-hours today - too tired to go out and observe.

I won't claim that it's entirely "eye training" alone to allow one to pull out surprising amounts of detail from deep sky objects with modest apertures. Instead, I think it's really a combination of many factors as you and others have suggested, Ed.

Spending only a brief moment or two on an object doesn't allow the eyes to adjust as fully to the unique light patterns present through the eyepiece. I don't know about anyone else, but I find that during the first several minutes of observing a given object, my eyes readjust focus quite a bit as they dart about trying to form a coherent image.

A guess as to what's going on, from my cognitive neuroscience background, I'd expect that the effect is partially a result of eye saccads that are involuntarily made as the rods and cones work to form a good image which is made difficult by a low signal to higher noise ratio, at least when dealing with a target (e.g. dim galaxy) on the verge of perception. We know through psychology experiments that an image that is sustained for a longer duration can overcome signal noise enough to be registered as a "hit" (i.e., "seeing the galaxy"). I'm not sure, though, if there might be some sort of a saturation or limiting effect.

Eye technicality aside, I definitely think that atmospheric conditions play a big role. By observing an object for a long duration, you have a much greater chance of catching a brief moment of excellent seeing and/or improved sky clarity. Such moments can help faint details flicker into view. These brief image improvements can work with the whole eye-brain system to build a coherent, more stable image with faint - barely perceptible - details.

Jay
South Florida

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Refractor manic.
My Sketches

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