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I've also seen the spiral arms of M51 in my 8" Newt. That was right beside my house in the middle of a red zone. It wasn't a matter of fulfilling expectations or averted imagination. The spiral arms were definitely there. M51 looked like one of those sweet pecan rolls. (I don't know why some DSOs look like food to me. M11, the Wild Duck, looks like a plate of hominey. ) I could also see the bridge to M51's companion. So it can be done. It is a matter of technique, practice, making sure your eyes are dark-adapted, and getting lucky with a transparent sky.

Clear Skies,
Mike

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So if Mike had been the original person naming the constellations, we wouldn't have gods and animals, we would have a star "menu".

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Garland Coulson
Orion XT8i Dob & Celestron 80 ED on a Vixen Porta Mount Mini
Baader Hyperion 8-24mm Click Zoom & Siebert Observatory 36mm
Siebert Black Knight Binoviewers
SkyWatcher Observing Chair
Celestron Skymaster 15x70mm binos

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One thing that has yet to be mentioned is the sky position of the object being attempted . While faint detail may be a tough nut to crack at 30 degrees off horizon , it may be downright easy when the object is at zenith . Take into consideration the amount of atmosphere that you are trying to peer through . Of course everything else mentioned still comes into play such as transparency , atmospheric stability , a little patience at the eyepiece , etc. Another consideration would be the proper magnification used . (Too little or too much) There is a "Goldylocks" or "fine line" area here that can make or break the view . I've seen fine structural detail in objects through my 8" that are said to be impossible without 10 to 12 to 16 inches in aperture . Go figure ?

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I think that authors or people who say some things are "impossible without 10 to 12 to 16 inches" are perhaps working from less than great sites (or don't get out nearly as much as they need to ). An 8 inch will show the spiral form of M51 at the proper magnification. Indeed, I have seen at least an indication of spiral structure in a six inch Newtonian, and in a four inch, the darn thing looks quite mottled, being perhaps on the verge of showing the spiral arms. M31 is a particularly teasing beast for an 8 inch, as you can see the dust lanes and one of the star clouds (NGC 206) at moderate power, but the rest of the spiral structure remains somewhat vague (unless you are using a Rich-field telescope and can see the whole thing). I actually like it better in my 100mm f/6 at around 17x to 25x. M33 shows weak but visible mottled spiral patchyness in an 8 inch, as do a few other galaxies. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org

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So if Mike had been the original person naming the constellations, we wouldn't have gods and animals, we would have a star "menu".

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Well, we can do without the gods, but you can eat some of the animals. We have Cygnus the Swan: a lot of neck meat there. Cancer the Crab is especially popular here in Maryland. Pisces (two Northern fish and one from down South) make it a seafood platter. The Japanese like Cetus the Whale, but I'll pass. The Chinese could probably make a nice Dragon soup out of Draco. Taurus the Bull makes a great burger. If you don't mind horse meat, there's Pegasus and Equuleus, who's young and tender. If you like Southern cuisine, Pavo the Peacock's tongue is considered a delicacy. M11 the Wild Duck is a little gamey, and it's not a constellation, but hey, I'm hungry!

Clear Skies and a Full Plate!
Mike

--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!

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Jay, I wonder if this might be due to getting your eyes "experienced" so as to detect subtle detail, or is it some of these elusive and fleeting but incredibly good moments of seeing?

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Whew, I've been working 10-hours today - too tired to go out and observe.

I won't claim that it's entirely "eye training" alone to allow one to pull out surprising amounts of detail from deep sky objects with modest apertures. Instead, I think it's really a combination of many factors as you and others have suggested, Ed.

Spending only a brief moment or two on an object doesn't allow the eyes to adjust as fully to the unique light patterns present through the eyepiece. I don't know about anyone else, but I find that during the first several minutes of observing a given object, my eyes readjust focus quite a bit as they dart about trying to form a coherent image.

A guess as to what's going on, from my cognitive neuroscience background, I'd expect that the effect is partially a result of eye saccads that are involuntarily made as the rods and cones work to form a good image which is made difficult by a low signal to higher noise ratio, at least when dealing with a target (e.g. dim galaxy) on the verge of perception. We know through psychology experiments that an image that is sustained for a longer duration can overcome signal noise enough to be registered as a "hit" (i.e., "seeing the galaxy"). I'm not sure, though, if there might be some sort of a saturation or limiting effect.

Eye technicality aside, I definitely think that atmospheric conditions play a big role. By observing an object for a long duration, you have a much greater chance of catching a brief moment of excellent seeing and/or improved sky clarity. Such moments can help faint details flicker into view. These brief image improvements can work with the whole eye-brain system to build a coherent, more stable image with faint - barely perceptible - details.

Jay
South Florida

--------------------
Refractor manic.
My Sketches

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I once saw spiral arms of M51 looking through an Orion Starblast 4.5" and a 24mm Panoptic eyepiece.

I could hardly believe that I could see them in so small a telescope. I might add that these were in the dark skies of Stellafane.

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I figure I've seen the spiral arms as good as most in this thread, from my black site. But I cannot find myself to concede that somehow 21st century eyes can do something nobody before Lord Rosse could.

I do think that the spiral arms are clearly there, but I must be psychologically conditioned to find them. That's the only excuse I've got for why nobody figured out the spiral until a 72" reflector came into play.

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Well, quite a number of people saw patchy detail in M51 before Rosse did, but they didn't exactly connect it into a drawing that showed a clear spiral form. Most of the descriptions were more of an irregular ring-like feature, which, if you look with smaller apertures, can be a fairly accurate way of describing how the object looks visually. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org

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As some have mentioned there are lots of things that can help you see fine detail and that you just need to keep looking to see them, waiting for the man, moment, and machine to come together and give that special view that you will remember the rest of your life.

Keep looking up and it will happen.

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I'm with Doug and William on this one. I am limited by physical condition to the size scope I can carry and use, but I like DSO and I'm going to keep trying.

I've seen M51 in all its spiral glory a couple times with my 8 inch and it was even better than a digital image. It was live and my brain was processing it in real time.

It's views like this that keep me coming back for more and they make it worth every penny I've ever spent in this hobby.

Ron

--------------------
Time spent looking at the stars is added to your life.

Tak FS-128, C925-CF, C6SE, other stray cats and refractors.
A-P Mach1 GTO
Zeiss orthos to Ethos - and some stuff in between.

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I'm with Doug and William on this one. I am limited by physical condition to the size scope I can carry and use, but I like DSO and I'm going to keep trying.

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I empathize with you. My physical condition is that I'm 5'6" and 145 lbs. I really don't see how some of these amateurs deal with 12" or bigger solid tube Newts, or 14" SCTs, especially when they mount these monsters on GEMs! Are they pro wrestlers or retired linebackers? I don't get it. My biggest scope is a 10" solid tube on a low Dob mount, and that is the most I want to handle. To add insult to injury, I just fitted it with my ST80 as a finder, and had to strap on more weight at the lower end to balance it out. I don't think I'll be taking this set up to the side of the house anymore. It's strictly for special treks to dark sites now. I'll use the 8" Newt and my other scopes and binos for observation here at the house. If I ever get a bigger scope, it will be an open truss Dob. Here is my test before I buy: If I have to stand up to look in the eyepiece, it's too big!

Clear Skies,
Mike

--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!

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I've seen M51 in all its spiral glory a couple times with my 8 inch and it was even better than a digital image. It was live and my brain was processing it in real time.

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For those in America, image intensifier EP's may be the answer.

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That's crazy talk! Not for me, not until they lower the price substantially. Not all us Americans are crazy rich, unfortunately. I just bought an Explore Scientific 14mm eyepiece, and even with three concurrent discounts my wallet is still hurting.

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Most will disagree with this, but I find a broad band filter can help. David Knisely is the expert here but I find it adds a little contrast and also offers a different view for the brain to assimilate.

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I also agree with others here, that 8" just gets me over the visual hump.

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I empathize with you. My physical condition is that I'm 5'6" and 145 lbs. I really don't see how some of these amateurs deal with 12" or bigger solid tube Newts, or 14" SCTs, especially when they mount these monsters on GEMs! Are they pro wrestlers or retired linebackers? I don't get it. My biggest scope is a 10" solid tube on a low Dob mount, and that is the most I want to handle. To add insult to injury, I just fitted it with my ST80 as a finder, and had to strap on more weight at the lower end to balance it out. I don't think I'll be taking this set up to the side of the house anymore. It's strictly for special treks to dark sites now. I'll use the 8" Newt and my other scopes and binos for observation here at the house. If I ever get a bigger scope, it will be an open truss Dob. Here is my test before I buy: If I have to stand up to look in the eyepiece, it's too big!

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I am actually a moderate size individual, but abused my body with a tough occupation in my youth (commercial deep sea diving) and am now paying the price in my old age.

Like everyone else, I would love more aperture, but I just sacrificed my second C11-A SCT because I couldn't handle it on a regular basis. What was I thinking? I sold the first one last year, but thought I could handle the new one on my new mount. Uh, nope - bad idea. But my dumbest experiment was to mount my old 10 inch Dob on a GEM. I prefer tracking and hoped this would be the best of both worlds. It was not - I sprained my back doing this and spent the whole summer in a back brace. I actually posted a picture of my Orion XT10 on the Mach1 in the Reflector Forum. I got it up there once and will never try that again. Need any scope rings?

Through all this, I kept my smaller scopes and my C925 will be my main DSO scope.

CS,

Ron

--------------------
Time spent looking at the stars is added to your life.

Tak FS-128, C925-CF, C6SE, other stray cats and refractors.
A-P Mach1 GTO
Zeiss orthos to Ethos - and some stuff in between.

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I've also seen the spiral arms of M51 in my 8" Newt. That was right beside my house in the middle of a red zone. It wasn't a matter of fulfilling expectations or averted imagination. The spiral arms were definitely there. M51 looked like one of those sweet pecan rolls. (I don't know why some DSOs look like food to me. M11, the Wild Duck, looks like a plate of hominey. ) I could also see the bridge to M51's companion. So it can be done. It is a matter of technique, practice, making sure your eyes are dark-adapted, and getting lucky with a transparent sky.

Clear Skies,
Mike

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Years of working on a commercial fishing vessel in my youth has left me with a destroyed L5 and Sciatic Nerve problems.
The 8" dob I own is at the maximum of what I would lug around on any given night.

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Reading your post caused my S-I joints to flare up. Ouch!

Don't give up. Your 8 inch Newt is plenty for M31, M51, and others. It just takes patience and perseverance. If you keep trying, you'll get that magical night and the view will be etched in your memory forever.

CS,

Ron

--------------------
Time spent looking at the stars is added to your life.

Tak FS-128, C925-CF, C6SE, other stray cats and refractors.
A-P Mach1 GTO
Zeiss orthos to Ethos - and some stuff in between.

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Spending only a brief moment or two on an object doesn't allow the eyes to adjust as fully to the unique light patterns present through the eyepiece. I don't know about anyone else, but I find that during the first several minutes of observing a given object, my eyes readjust focus quite a bit as they dart about trying to form a coherent image.

A guess as to what's going on, from my cognitive neuroscience background, I'd expect that the effect is partially a result of eye saccads that are involuntarily made as the rods and cones work to form a good image which is made difficult by a low signal to higher noise ratio, at least when dealing with a target (e.g. dim galaxy) on the verge of perception. We know through psychology experiments that an image that is sustained for a longer duration can overcome signal noise enough to be registered as a "hit" (i.e., "seeing the galaxy"). I'm not sure, though, if there might be some sort of a saturation or limiting effect.

Eye technicality aside, I definitely think that atmospheric conditions play a big role. By observing an object for a long duration, you have a much greater chance of catching a brief moment of excellent seeing and/or improved sky clarity. Such moments can help faint details flicker into view. These brief image improvements can work with the whole eye-brain system to build a coherent, more stable image with faint - barely perceptible - details.

Jay
South Florida

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Your post has filled me hope, I have yet to see any trace of spiral arms in M31 even a dusty smudge would be triumph.

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Dark skies , good transparency & a steady atmosphere , & even the small scopes can bring unforgettable images .

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LXD75 AR5
LXD75 SN8
Series 4000 Plossls
Misc. other stuff


Fort Rock , Az .

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I've also seen the spiral arms of M51 in my 8" Newt. That was right beside my house in the middle of a red zone. It wasn't a matter of fulfilling expectations or averted imagination. The spiral arms were definitely there. M51 looked like one of those sweet pecan rolls. (I don't know why some DSOs look like food to me. M11, the Wild Duck, looks like a plate of hominey. ) I could also see the bridge to M51's companion. So it can be done. It is a matter of technique, practice, making sure your eyes are dark-adapted, and getting lucky with a transparent sky.

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Your post has filled me hope, I have yet to see any trace of spiral arms in M31 even a dusty smudge would be triumph.

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Hope and ... hunger? Actually, the spiral arms in M31 might not be as easy to see as those in M51, because M51 is face-on and M31 is tilted. A dust lane or two can be seen fairly easily in M31, especially in an 8" or larger and at a dark site. If the sky is pretty transparent, and you have an 8" or so - or even smaller, as evidenced by other posts in this thread - you can hope to see the spiral arms in M51.

But take the advice that's been given in the posts here (and some others I might add): (1) make sure your eyes are dark adapted, (2) observe the galaxy when it's on the meridian, in other words due south, when it will be closest to zenith, (3) don't just take a quick glance, take your time and study the galaxy, (4) observe on a moonless night, of course, (5) observe at a dark site if you can, (6) maybe try a broadband filter or an 82A light blue (there are opposing opinions on the use of filters with galaxies), (7) use averted vision, (8) let the galaxy drift across the field of view, (9) gently tap the side of the scope or focuser, (10) try different magnifications (sometimes a higher power will let you see more with better contrast), (11) try different combinations of the above advice. Enjoy!

Clear Skies,
Mike

--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!

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I've seen some kind of spiral structure with a 4.7" telescope in:

M33
M51 (also with 3")
M74
M101
IC 342

With an 8" telescope there tens more. Easiest is probably M51 as so many people have seen the beautiful pictures out there and know what to expect.

/Jake

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M33 a couple of weeks ago showed at least hints of one of the arms in my 100mm f/6 refractor using the Orion Skyglow filter from my front yard. It wasn't obvious, but it was clear that something other than a somewhat uniform fuzzy blob was visible. On M74 however, I have yet to see much in the way of clear spiral structure in scopes much under 10 inches of aperture. Oh, I can easily tell it's a spiral from the brighter center and mottled patchyness in the outer haze, but the arms tend to be very difficult to discern with any certainty. Even in my 10 inch, its spiral form remains vague at best. M101 is a similar but larger object that shows a lot of diffuse mottling with difficult spiral arm structure. On a few really clear dark nights, I can sometimes get the "grand design" of the arms in my 10 inch, but usually, it is just more of a vague diffuse patchyness. IC342 tends to show the arms vaguely in my 10 inch, but the object is so faint that it requires a good dark night just to get to the threshold of spiral arm visibility. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org

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I've also seen the spiral arms of M51 in my 8" Newt. That was right beside my house in the middle of a red zone. It wasn't a matter of fulfilling expectations or averted imagination. The spiral arms were definitely there. M51 looked like one of those sweet pecan rolls. (I don't know why some DSOs look like food to me. M11, the Wild Duck, looks like a plate of hominey. ) I could also see the bridge to M51's companion. So it can be done. It is a matter of technique, practice, making sure your eyes are dark-adapted, and getting lucky with a transparent sky.

Clear Skies,
Mike

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Dang Mike, now I'm getting hungry! LOL


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Gordon

Celestron Nexstar 8SE with XLT coating - Baader Planetarium Hyperion 8mm-24mm Clickstop Zoom eyepiece
Celestron Skymaster 20x80 Binoculars
Smart Seat II Observing Chair
all in the hands of a total neophite
----------------------------
Register at ScopeBuddies.com to find local astronomy buddies!

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